Offspring´s

[Mikael]

I just wonder if there are any recommended maximum number of offspring’s ???

When looking at the planned litters, I noticed that the same dogs shows up on almost every pedigree, whit in the first 4 generation !!! For example Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS whit his 95 offspring’s…

I must say I am no expert on genetic, but to me it looks like some breeders are creating a very narrow genepool, fore future generation of breeders to use.

Personally I think 20-25 offspring’s sounds like a good and healthy number of offspring’s, and maximum 30-35.

And I ask my self if breeders that take over 50 offspring’s really are interested of breeding, or if it is just about the money ???

Sad regards / Mikael

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I just wonder if there are any recommended maximum number of offspring’s ???

When looking at the planned litters, I noticed that the same dogs shows up on almost every pedigree, whit in the first 4 generation !!! For example Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS whit his 95 offspring’s…

I must say I am no expert on genetic, but to me it looks like some breeders are creating a very narrow genepool, fore future generation of breeders to use.

Personally I think 20-25 offspring’s sounds like a good and healthy number of offspring’s, and maximum 30-35.

And I ask my self if breeders that take over 50 offspring’s really are interested of breeding, or if it is just about the money ???

Sad regards / Mikael

this is great post excellent topic for discussion Mikael hope it gets the response it deserves i aslo check the data base regulary its surprising what you see on it ,,,,regards pacino

[Mikael]

Numbers of offsprings 10 topplist on CsV born after year 2000.

47 offsprings 2002.12.31 Baron spod Ïumbiera
48 offsprings 2001.12.03 Batt Malý Bysterec
54 offsprings 2004.01.31 Merlin Crying Wolf
51 offsprings 2000.10.06 Rendy ---Passo del Lupo---
55 offsprings 2001.12.04 Edgar Passo del Lupo
60 offsprings 2004.11.11 Vaicko Passo del Lupo
73 offsprings 2003.04.18 Timber Wolf Arimminum
82 offsprings 2002.10.15 Duncan ---Colle del Lupo---
135 offsprings 2001.04.12 Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere---
151 offsprings 2002.10.03 Miky Passo del Lupo

Very sad regards / Mikael

[wolfin]

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

yes please tell us for it is only way to bring things into open, the breed can not continue in such a way, and breeding same dog with same bitch more times is not in interest of breed but could be for profit only, i say what i think, its better up front than hide things you really want to say, i am very out spoken and rude at times but then i get people to say what they really want to say by doing it, i am nearly finnished with setting up for CWS in uk. 1 we start by registering what pure dogs we have, all dogs health tested, when we breed the pups are registered by breeder, when pedigree is sent to new owner it has clause on it called breeding restriction, this restriction can not be lifted untill dog has past health tests,, if dog fails now pups can ever be registered from this dog, breeder will refund half money for dog and owner if wants to can keep the dog,, before any dog can be bred from it will go in front of pannel of club members the dog will be judged as for breed standard, we have to set up things for this, and decide what what faults are serious to stop dog from being bred from, again the breeder will pay half of money back if dog is not suitable to breed from and may keep dog, we have decided already to set up character test as this for the breed is very important. so we do our bit in uk. to help preserve the breed and make healthy dogs, if you dont want to share name send it to me and i will ask them online pacino

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by wolfin

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

Yes I agree there are more to this then just the number of offspring’s !!!

But when you breed this much on one specific individual it will be hard to find unrelated breeding partners in the future…
As my example whit Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS already shows...

It does not matter if the dog is healthy or not, it is an unhealthy breedplan !!!

I also have become informed of this…

"There is also the consanguinity trouble which is directly related to this point, on 5 generations some Crying Wolf mating have a COI of 25% (as reference brother sister mating gives 25% COI)."

If we do not do anything about this now it will be to late, the CsV breed will be a unhealthy and inbreed dog breed !!!

Apperantley the UK understands this already how about you and your contry ???

Regards / Mikael

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I agree there are more to this then just the number of offspring’s !!!

But when you breed this much on one specific individual it will be hard to find unrelated breeding partners in the future…
As my example whit Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS already shows...

It does not matter if the dog is healthy or not, it is an unhealthy breedplan !!!

Well, I don't see such a big trouble in this. Let's say that I like a dog who is not alive allready, so I am looking for his son or grandson for mating with my female. Believe me, even if he had about 10 litters, it is so hard to find one... Some are not bonitated or without HD, or I do not like the other bloods that this dog has or the way it looks... A good stud has to be used with various bitches So that he could pass his goodness to the future generations.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Apperantley the UK understands this already how about you and your contry ???

Regards / Mikael

Calm down Mikael, I thought you Swedes have more sort of an iceberg character .
Anyway, the mentioned above about the UK is not correct.
The whole breeding so far is based on one bitch (Lynx Legend).
WOLFZONE-Kennel even does a repeating of the first litter (Titan X Princesse).
The other litters from PACINO-Kennel are from Princesse's full sister and her mother Lynx Legend.

Regards,
Michael

[wolfin]

You cann breed in 2 ways:
one is planed linie breeding. in this way stay all breeds and best dogs
and breed 2 dogs who you have and not see in pedigree- this be not breeding but only sexturistik. and in this case maybe you have good dogs, maybe not, and not make breed breder only puppies make.

I think You understand who is me way, and who have others breed way.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by wolfin

You cann breed in 2 ways:
one is planed linie breeding. in this way stay all breeds and best dogs
and breed 2 dogs who you have and not see in pedigree- this be not breeding but only sexturistik. and in this case maybe you have good dogs, maybe not, and not make breed breder only puppies make.

I think You understand who is me way, and who have others breed way.

Yes, but I do not talk about you, or your breeding, you have a breedplan,
I talk about breeders that do over 50 offsprings on some of there dogs !!!
and that is not healthy for the breed !!!

I think you know what I mean

Regads / Mikael

[wolfin]

Mikael, in who ways you breed in future- I think You have problem- all dogs have this same blood.

I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info.
and who say true in this case?

[elf]

I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info.

Which publications/scientists and which other info ? Interested...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by elf

Which publications/scientists and which other info ? Interested...

this be in russish lanquage and You not wright this
and all normal genetic books wright this same.

[wolfin]

wright me please in who is bad this pedigree?
not % but dogs name and who is this bad

[elf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

wright me please in who is bad this pedigree?
not % but dogs name and who is this bad

Nothing bad.
Just to show that's not easy to mate dogs and get a COI less than 20% nowadays, this is an indicator for the breed.

[elf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

this be in russish lanquage and you not wright this
and all normal genetic books wright this same.

я отлично читаю на русском

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Mikael, in who ways you breed in future- I think You have problem- all dogs have this same blood.

I read and who? normal articul, I have others but not in english and in hes dr.vet or genetic say others info.
and who say true in this case?

Firt of all this is not a topic about my kennel

But if I have good dogs to breed in the future, I will breed...

* As unrelated dogs as possible.
* On good health, as far as I know and can test.
* On as good HD results as possible, but only A and B.
* On as good Bonitation results as possible.
* On good working results.

Hronec Taabernakkelin have a Wright´s Coefficient of inbreeding on 6,1% on 5 generation, therefore I´m not the one whit a big problem here...

But thanks for ansking and careing about me

regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Repeating matings is different to use a stud.
Omar z krotkovskeho dvora was used in a different data in pretty different conditions for the breed.
I don't agree with his use in this way, I don't agree with the fact that people had use so much some studs as Rep Z pohranicni Straze and Omar z Krotovskeho dvora, when at the same time some dogs with different bloodlines get lost in the time because hole litter of lonely mate die without get used in the breed.
But things change and now we have more dogs than at past, more females and more breeders, surelly the number of the litters per dog, principally a famous one will increase, if we compare with the past it will seems even stupid and bad for the breed.
In this topic we are mixing somethings as if it is equal, its a wrong think.
One thing is repeat ever the same litter, it surelly decrease the genetic pool of the breed as the clone litter have no value for breeding, another thing is you use a stud with you know have good bloodline and pass good characteristics one time or with different females and don't repeat again these litters, you do it knowing and waiting good genetic, another thing is you blindly use a male because shows or working titles.

I really don't see problems in dogs like Carr Maly Bysterec or Baron Spod Dumbiera and others like that, wich have made some different litter with some different females in different countries, theyr blood is speeled over world, not all dogs from these mates are used in breeding, some pet dogs and maybe one or two dogs of these litters will get used at breeding, these dogs we all know pass some good qualitys for its offsprings, turning better the quality helping with the breed evolution as well.
The females mated with this dog probably won't repeat ever the same litter with him, even because he is from different owner and sometimes not soo much well common, and well... the owners study the line for make this litter and commonly they find another so interessant dog for mate in next litter, so you will be able to see the blood of this female with some different males, if you want you will use the blood of this female with the blood of this well common dog or not.
No wonder if in about 5 years we have some linebreedings on these dogs with the will to increase a little bit the amount of blood of these dogs in the specific litter, that's happen and is common in all breed.

At other side we have the hiper show well-know titled dogs, wich everyones uses it sometimes blindly because the titles that will help then to sell the litter, not only have him as father but make huge inbreedig and line breeding in this dog, another times without any knowledge about its genetic they make litters with the think that: "if this dog is good and titled, he will makes good litters", and, when you have a hyper used dog, neophites will see only good dogs winning at shows or at the magazines, and will think "this dog is good" without have knowledge that of these 2 good dogs, this same stud made about 50 bad ones wich are almost hiding with owners as Pet, and maybe will appear one good soul wich will study the pedigree of this dog, his offsprings and will see if this dog will be good or bad if mate with his female.

And so, we have here the good character of the stud owner, you as owner will let your dog be used in repeated mates? with females with bad bloodline for him? or let him make inbreeding using him with his daughter?
here enter the good sense and the money question, if someones only care for money, he will let his stud be used for who paid, if the owner have alittle bit og good sense, he will think twice before do that.
This concience will avoid the problems that we can see at south america with dobermann breeding, almost all dobermanns have one dog in line or inbreeding, barely you find dogs that's at least far away of this dog, that's happen becahse this dog was good and the owner surelly don't care much or don't had think about the future of the breed, and let this dog be over used by other breeders, the dog is good, pass good genetic and is pretty know and well titled. For you people had idea about the think of th eowner, the dog is death at more than 5 years and still make litters as father... tecnology rules.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by solowolf

your tecnology was not much use when you insulted me and the breeder of my timber wollf calling it a HYBRID ,,,,,, you can talk the talk but if you cant tell a pure wolf when you see one i wouldnt bother with breeding at all,,,,,, pacino

Sorry, wrong topic

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I understood didn't Nebulosa mean the wolves, she was talking about dogs. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs in that case.
How many wolves and what kind of wolves live in your wolf park anyway, and whereabout is the park located?

Michael

Can you please put this post in the Crosses in the UK thread instead

Regards / Mikael