"Suspicious" dogs list - Page 2

Mikael · 28-10-2008, 20:07

Hmmmmm…

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.
You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety.

And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think.

Yes some breeders will try to cheat, but whit a DNA database it will be harder to do this, not easier.

And even whit about 4-6 standard DNA results the breeders will have to look at the exterior,
and the buyers will have to look fore work, bonitation and show results.

The DNA database would bee a complement fore the breeders, not a 100% breeding standard list.

And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please.

But I understand way some breeders do not wont DNA tests,
because it will cost a bit and there is no way to hide away a bad result.

Best regards / Mikael

Nebulosa · 28-10-2008, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hmmmmm…

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.

No good breeder will be really aganist DNA tests, but we need see how this DNA test will be made, I saw the topic about the DNA tests on Belgiun, I'm really glad by their movement for the good breeding but they leave some holes that can and surelly will be used for bad breeders sake, or you really believe that someone who wants sold mixes dogs will lost the opportunity to have a mix "DNA-tested pure breed CzW"?
If I live in Belgium I will be really against this test because the way it will be done and the huge problem it will brings.
But I really think in see how much will coast for make DNA test in all litter I do, and, if possible, talk with the laboratories for we make a DNA database as save the blood line of the dogs for possible future use, but this is for a not much far future.

Quote:

You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

It isn't so easy like that, if we map the breed you will see that almost all dogs and all lines will carry a problem, some more serious and some less.
Even that will not mean we can put out all dogs wich have or pass problems, unhaply we not have genetic pool for do it.

Quote:

Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety.

I really wish this day comes soon as possible, but I know that it will leave still much time, so we cannot count with such tecnology now.

Quote:

And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think.

Some diseases are in the breeding, most part we nor are able to imagine, CzW is a new breed and we don't know how many illness exists already and how are tipical or would be if lack correct selection.
But, we enter again in the poor genetic pool problem, and this will follow all breeders until the line be PROPERLLY open.
Soppose we find a old displasic CzW with a really rare line, a uncommon line wich will make a really good open of blood.
What would you, as breeder do?
Put this dog outside breeding because his hips isn't good enough and kill a new open pure line with the future death of this old dog?
Make alitter with he using a famale with really good hips and wich is pretty know for pass these good hips for it's offsprings?
Every people with common sense will have the first action, take the dog out the breeding because his bad hips, but it isn't so easy, doing it you will lost a really good opportunity to open the line of the breeding with a pure animal, and you can't imagine how this is precious for every breed with such little genetic pool.
If we take the second option, use the displasic dog with a good female, all puppies probably will carry the displasy gene, supose that 50% will show the problem and 50% not, with selection we can fix again the displasy problem in this specific line, and everyone that will use this line must be awared about it.
Remembering with the high consanguinity in this breed, probably every dog carry the displasy problem, but most part of good selected animals with correct body don't show it.
If we don't use this displasic open lined dog, soon more illness than only displasy will appear because the high imbreeding, it will be worst than displasic puppies I can guarantee it to you, soon we will need open the line with.. a carpatian wolf, it wil be like start of the 0 again with the new line, a lot of work will must be done for this new line be tipical at the CzW again, principally in behaviour.
Every decision must be really well thinked before be done, principally when we talk about take lines out of breeding.
Remembering that I'm not saying here that is correct use displasyc dog, or that displasic dogs may not be discarted of breeding, but if appear a very special case like the one I cited here.

Quote:

And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please.

Good breeders have nothing to hide, this site show it perfectly.
Ask yourself, why lack some HD and ED results in some dogs wich sometimes we knows have problems? look what Margo write before and you will see why these bad results lack.
So, when you start search for a new dog, start look wich breeders or litters lack most results, it's easy and sometimes you can even confirm some of the gossips you listen.

Juniorwolf · 29-10-2008, 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Good breeders have nothing to hide, this site show it perfectly.
Ask yourself, why lack some HD and ED results in some dogs wich sometimes we knows have problems? look what Margo write before and you will see why these bad results lack.
So, when you start search for a new dog, start look wich breeders or litters lack most results, it's easy and sometimes you can even confirm some of the gossips you listen.

I would like to add that not all breeders care about this site due to personal problems, a lot of gossip and talking behind the back + many other reasons and for most parts it is the owner of the dog and not the breeder who add info about HD/ED/Bonitation/etc. ...it is not always bad breeders just because missing info ...some breeders sell many dogs abroad and loose contact with the new owners and some breeders just don`t add the info on this site(for many reasons), it does not mean that you are a bad breeder or are hiding info just because you don`t add info to a private site ! ....remember this is a private owned site for CSW

Greetings Rolf

Nebulosa · 29-10-2008, 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

I would like to add that not all breeders care about this site due to personal problems, a lot of gossip and talking behind the back + many other reasons and for most parts it is the owner of the dog and not the breeder who add info about HD/ED/Bonitation/etc. ...it is not always bad breeders just because missing info ...some breeders sell many dogs abroad and loose contact with the new owners and some breeders just don`t add the info on this site(for many reasons), it does not mean that you are a bad breeder or are hiding info just because you don`t add info to a private site ! ....remember this is a private owned site for CSW

Greetings Rolf

Ithis case probably will lack information about the litter and the own dogs sometimes, even they will ask for take then out of the breeders list and even theyrs dogs of the database.
In this case wner/breeder can send e-mail tho this breeder asking for information about litters and a copy of the HD / ED results too, quest how many dogs had problems and so on, it's a interess question, like breeder wich go searching for informations about possible problematic dogs in the breed
But, we can find some breeders wich not like here, announce his litters and send the datas... only of the good results dogs, so, its pretty interessing whern you have alitter with 2 dogs C and the others without result isn't it?

Juniorwolf · 29-10-2008, 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Ithis case probably will lack information about the litter and the own dogs sometimes, even they will ask for take then out of the breeders list and even theyrs dogs of the database.
In this case wner/breeder can send e-mail tho this breeder asking for information about litters and a copy of the HD / ED results too, quest how many dogs had problems and so on, it's a interess question, like breeder wich go searching for informations about possible problematic dogs in the breed
But, we can find some breeders wich not like here, announce his litters and send the datas... only of the good results dogs, so, its pretty interessing whern you have alitter with 2 dogs C and the others without result isn't it?

I just don`t want to put all breeders in the same two boxes(good and bad) I am sure that some breeders who don`t add info, is just like you wrote, but not all ...for sure ! ...please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

Nebulosa · 29-10-2008, 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

I just don`t want to put all breeders in the same two boxes(good and bad) I am sure that some breeders who don`t add info, is just like you wrote, but not all ...for sure ! ...please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

I'm keeping my mind open, maybe you misunderstand me, I told breeders wich not put information here can be contacted particullary and who have interess in this breeder can make the questions wich want for the breeder, like asking for a copy of photo of the HD and ED results.
I never told here that they're bad because not put informations here, it's only you read again.

Who have nothing to fear won't hide informations, I really won't believe in a breeder wich only say "I never have problems in my kennel, all my dogs are healty and HD free" without show and proof it to me with official pappers, even a copy or photo.

Juniorwolf · 29-10-2008, 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I'm keeping my mind open, maybe you misunderstand me, I told breeders wich not put information here can be contacted particullary and who have interess in this breeder can make the questions wich want for the breeder, like asking for a copy of photo of the HD and ED results.
I never told here that they're bad because not put informations here, it's only you read again.

Who have nothing to fear won't hide informations, I really won't believe in a breeder wich only say "I never have problems in my kennel, all my dogs are healty and HD free" without show and proof it to me with official pappers, even a copy or photo.

Sorry I misunderstod.... I too also only belive in what I see for my self and not just what have been said

Greetings Rolf

Margo · 29-10-2008, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.
You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

No, nobody will be against such tests. It is the best thing which can be done BUT so far you do not have the DNA tests to check if the dog carry dysplasia, ED, heart problem, epilepsy, aso.... Such test are available for some other breeds but so far I know they can used only by the breeds which were tested and not for all (almost int he most cases they are also useless for us because they check decreases which never appear by CzWs)...
Some illnesses are not inheritated on a simple way and more genes are responsible for it - in such cases maybe it will be never possibile to make any DNA tests...

Anyway I don't want to say the people here do nothing and hide everything. NO! I have really good news for you... Since some years we collect information about reasons of death - we put into the database when the dog died, why (if it was natural reason or not). Thanks to the breeders and owners we will be able soon to make first statistics how long CzW really live (when we will filter out the unnatural reasons) and the most common causes.

But it is not all - we collect also infromation about the health: the breeders and owners can choose if the information they send will be published on the Wolfdog or not (and used only for statistisc and other tests).

So the infromation is already collected and will appear in the new database....

Margo · 29-10-2008, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

some breeders sell many dogs abroad and loose contact with the new owners and some breeders just don`t add the info on this site(for many reasons), it does not mean that you are a bad breeder or are hiding info just because you don`t add info to a private site ! ....remember this is a private owned site for CSW

Rolf, I know this words....

You know WHY it is now private owned site? Because according the law it can not be OUR comunity site. It MUST stay private... WHY? The breeders which words you cite at the moment forced us to make it so... It is old story and I don't want to repeat it again but the "poor breeders which do not want to add info to the private site" has been banned on Wolfdog for the cheating with the Mixes (famous Mutara-gate) and MANY other offences. But believe me - they belong to our most active users and pay huge attention to have all information listed here...

And other breeders?
As you know Wolfdog base on cooperation - nobody forse people to use the possibility to advertise here. For example it is clearly wrote by adding the ad about the new litter:
"Free-of-charge advertisements base on reciprocal benefits - You get a chance to announce your litter effectively and for free and we receive from you the information about puppies and owners as a "payback". Until you don't fulfill the conditions described in paragraph 7) you will not be able to place more advertisements. Resending of the overdue information to us will result in your future advertisements being published again."
Do you know how many breeders keep contact only till they sell the puppies... after it we get nothing... till the next litter. And when you do not publish the next litter they write about "persecution of their kennel"...

No Rolf, believe me - the really good breeders I know have always all their information listed here. Even if it is not for them they make it for the puppy owners (the new owners can not add photos to the gallery or show results of their dogs till the dog is not listed in the database).
With small exceptions where the breeder really do not have time or has some personal problems the principle is:
"missing information in the database = unresponsible breeder or even puppy mill"
Sorry, it is so...

Juniorwolf · 29-10-2008, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

Rolf, I know this words....

You know WHY it is now private owned site? Because according the law it can not be OUR comunity site. It MUST stay private... WHY? The breeders which words you cite at the moment forced us to make it so... It is old story and I don't want to repeat it again but the "poor breeders which do not want to add info to the private site" has been banned on Wolfdog for the cheating with the Mixes (famous Mutara-gate) and MANY other offences. But believe me - they belong to our most active users and pay huge attention to have all information listed here...

And other breeders?
As you know Wolfdog base on cooperation - nobody forse people to use the possibility to advertise here. For example it is clearly wrote by adding the ad about the new litter:
"Free-of-charge advertisements base on reciprocal benefits - You get a chance to announce your litter effectively and for free and we receive from you the information about puppies and owners as a "payback". Until you don't fulfill the conditions described in paragraph 7) you will not be able to place more advertisements. Resending of the overdue information to us will result in your future advertisements being published again."
Do you know how many breeders keep contact only till they sell the puppies... after it we get nothing... till the next litter. And when you do not publish the next litter they write about "persecution of their kennel"...

No Rolf, believe me - the really good breeders I know have always all their information listed here. Even if it is not for them they make it for the puppy owners (the new owners can not add photos to the gallery or show results of their dogs till the dog is not listed in the database).
With small exceptions where the breeder really do not have time or has some personal problems the principle is:
"missing information in the database = unresponsible breeder or even puppy mill"
Sorry, it is so...

Sorry Margo, but you are wrong ! ...the breeders witch words I cite live in Denmark and have NOTHING at all to do with Mutara or law of your website, in fact I am not even sure that they know about Mutara ? ...they just dont want to join all the gossip, talking behind the back and listen to peoples(they never even meets) personal problems with eachother, I truely understand them, sometimes I think the gossip here is too much and the facts is too little.... I am here on this site to learn, to exchange experiences and to see what is going on in the world of CSW`s ...I am not here to have meningless argues or to talk shit about others

As I wrote before - Please keep an open mind !

Greetings Rolf

Vaiva · 29-10-2008, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

they just dont want to join all the gossip, talking behind the back and listen to peoples(they never even meets) personal problems with eachother

So is it better to keep the information about everyone's dog in secret?

I think every responsible breeder or owner should be VERY happy there is a database like this and we all should try to put here as much information about wolfdogs as possible...

Juniorwolf · 29-10-2008, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

So is it better to keep the information about everyone's dog in secret?

I think every responsible breeder or owner should be VERY happy there is a database like this and we all should try to put here as much information about wolfdogs as possible...

As I wrote in an earlier post, it is not a secret just because it is not addet to a private owned site(or any site for that matter) ....I am sure if you contact thise breeders they will gladly answer all your questions ...also keep in mind that not all breeders(other people too) care about internet, even more some people don`t speak other languages than their own and some don`t have international interests ! .....does this make them bad breeders/owners ?

I can write this over and over again - Please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

Vaiva · 29-10-2008, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

As I wrote in an earlier post, it is not a secret just because it is not addet to a private owned site(or any site for that matter) ....I am sure if you contact thise breeders they will gladly answer all your questions ...also keep in mind that not all breeders(other people too) care about internet, even more some people don`t speak other languages than their own and some don`t have international interests ! .....does this make them bad breeders/owners ?

I can write this over and over again - Please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

Ok, but if there is an international database, why not to put information here? i do not see any reasons. The breeders and owners of other breeds get very surprised then they hear about such a great thing as wolfdog.org, why not to support it by information (not money, time or smth else)

Hanka · 29-10-2008, 14:37

Hello Mikael. One reaction to your first question. You mean, Orlik had curly coat. But Orlik had parents too. He MUST have it from some parent. You can ask us: Why was in breeding his father Rep z PS, if he had not corect coat?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/cs/gallery/pic/23768/
I answer you: in 80. years of 20. century was 75% of slovakian population related to Rep z PS. If breeders could´not use him, the breeding was ending in the begin of breeding. I remember Rep z PS. It was wonderfull male with dancing steps, ideal male. So we must ignorate some defect. He gived much good dogs and some bad, of course. It is reason, why we must to do selection.
Maybe it is answer for other people in second forum. Unfortunatelly not exist selection!!!! Much people "produces" all wolfdogs. Without bonitation, without HD results, not exist breeding comission for guarding of health of breed....Sad.
Funny is when bad dogs (for breeding here) from Czech republic are sold to west Evropa and they are "perfect" breeding dogs. It is normal

.
I think, we have not chance to change it, when we will sell pups by money. If somewhere are money, other things are outside. But we are people, it is BASE of people

.

Hanka · 29-10-2008, 14:43

Hi hi, Daiva. Will you write about your dogs openly to all World? For example : "my male has operated bones or my dog have bad teeth," etc etc....? And if somebody will know some top secret info about your dogs and this person will write here: Don´t use Daiva male, he has this and this.....I think, you will never speak with this people...Or yes?
So I think, this situation is normal (to keeping of "bad " info top secret), but I don´t think it is good. But nobody can change it.
Exist thousands defects of this breed. But good breeder CAN watch it and he CAN use only good dogs for breeding. Maybe only for his good feeling.
And if somebody breed dogs with defect and he knows it.....nobody can change it.

Margo · 29-10-2008, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

they just dont want to join all the gossip, talking behind the back and listen to peoples(they never even meets) personal problems with eachother

Let's be honest - do you really think adding information about their litters means they MUST be active on Wolfdog? If they have normal litters (no huge inbreed, aso) they really do not need to be affraid of nothing.
On the other side: breeding of dogs is not rising puppies for new owners but it is about the whole breed. When I have the litter I have it not only to sell thew puppies and to be happy the puppies have nice new owners... Sure, it is the main thing but beside of it I make matings that can be useful for other breeders. That's why I'm asking dog owners to make x-rays, breeding rights even if the want to have dog "only" as family member...

And you will find MANY breeders which handle similar way - they make litters, have new owners, but at the same time they really do something for the breed. Some of them NEVER wrote a post here, they are not involved in the fights and nobody never wrote their name here in bad way.... But still they send the infromation and updates - typical responsible breeders which really care not only for themself....

I really do not want to attack them but imagine - maybe there are some interesting males, interesting healthy lines in Denemark. It is good to hide them? Information about them if they can help us to make the breed better, healthier?

Juniorwolf · 29-10-2008, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Ok, but if there is an international database, why not to put information here? i do not see any reasons. The breeders and owners of other breeds get very surprised then they hear about such a great thing as wolfdog.org, why not to support it by information (not money, time or smth else)

Vaiva I agree with you, it would be nice and better if everybody did this, but I think people have the right to not care about internet or not to have interest about it ...this does not make them bad owners or breeders !
Don`t misunderstand me, I like this database a lot, but still not all people have to like the same or have same interests as me to be good owners/breeders/friends !

Greetings Rolf

Vaiva · 29-10-2008, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi hi, Daiva. Will you write about your dogs openly to all World? For example : "my male has operated bones or my dog have bad teeth," etc etc....? And if somebody will know some top secret info about your dogs and this person will write here: Don´t use Daiva male, he has this and this.....I think, you will never speak with this people...Or yes?
So I think, this situation is normal (to keeping of "bad " info top secret), but I don´t think it is good. But nobody can change it.
Exist thousands defects of this breed. But good breeder CAN watch it and he CAN use only good dogs for breeding. Maybe only for his good feeling.
And if somebody breed dogs with defect and he knows it.....nobody can change it.

Daiva did not write even a thing on this topic, so I guess you meant Vaiva

It is easy for me, of course, to say "yes", but maybe it is just because I only have one female wolfdog and no litters yet

You know, if you are open and have no "top secrets", nobody will see any reasons to speak secretly something bad about you and your dogs

Being open is a best thing to feel safe from any gossiping

Hanka · 29-10-2008, 15:06

Hmmmm, so not Daiva. My answer was to Vaiva

. But the questions and anwsers are always the same

. And one question more: why you have almost the same nick?

Vaiva · 29-10-2008, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hmmmm, so not Daiva. My answer was to Vaiva

. But the questions and anwsers are always the same

. And one question more: why you have almost the same nick?

Well, these are our names. Real ones. Daiva Rimaityte and Vaiva Zostautaite

There is also a Lithuanian name Vaida, so don't be surprised if one day...

But this is OT

28-10-2008, 20:07	#21
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	Hmmmmm… I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ? DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better. You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se… Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety. And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think. Yes some breeders will try to cheat, but whit a DNA database it will be harder to do this, not easier. And even whit about 4-6 standard DNA results the breeders will have to look at the exterior, and the buyers will have to look fore work, bonitation and show results. The DNA database would bee a complement fore the breeders, not a 100% breeding standard list. And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please. But I understand way some breeders do not wont DNA tests, because it will cost a bit and there is no way to hide away a bad result. Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

29-10-2008, 14:37	#34
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hello Mikael. One reaction to your first question. You mean, Orlik had curly coat. But Orlik had parents too. He MUST have it from some parent. You can ask us: Why was in breeding his father Rep z PS, if he had not corect coat? http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/cs/gallery/pic/23768/ I answer you: in 80. years of 20. century was 75% of slovakian population related to Rep z PS. If breeders could´not use him, the breeding was ending in the begin of breeding. I remember Rep z PS. It was wonderfull male with dancing steps, ideal male. So we must ignorate some defect. He gived much good dogs and some bad, of course. It is reason, why we must to do selection. Maybe it is answer for other people in second forum. Unfortunatelly not exist selection!!!! Much people "produces" all wolfdogs. Without bonitation, without HD results, not exist breeding comission for guarding of health of breed....Sad. Funny is when bad dogs (for breeding here) from Czech republic are sold to west Evropa and they are "perfect" breeding dogs. It is normal. I think, we have not chance to change it, when we will sell pups by money. If somewhere are money, other things are outside. But we are people, it is BASE of people.

29-10-2008, 15:06	#39
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hmmmm, so not Daiva. My answer was to Vaiva. But the questions and anwsers are always the same . And one question more: why you have almost the same nick?

29-10-2008, 14:43	#35
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi hi, Daiva. Will you write about your dogs openly to all World? For example : "my male has operated bones or my dog have bad teeth," etc etc....? And if somebody will know some top secret info about your dogs and this person will write here: Don´t use Daiva male, he has this and this.....I think, you will never speak with this people...Or yes? So I think, this situation is normal (to keeping of "bad " info top secret), but I don´t think it is good. But nobody can change it. Exist thousands defects of this breed. But good breeder CAN watch it and he CAN use only good dogs for breeding. Maybe only for his good feeling. And if somebody breed dogs with defect and he knows it.....nobody can change it.