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Old 22-08-2009, 14:54   #21
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Somebody Knows the real origin of Dark, if these are wrong?
Thank you
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Old 24-08-2009, 08:30   #22
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Is too much "black things" in breeding of our wolfdogs. But if don´t exist DNA tests for all dogs, we can do nothing against it.....
Ask slovak club, they are garant of breed..............
Or: you can ask during world show in Bratislava, there will be time on wolfdogmeeting.
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Old 24-08-2009, 11:42   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildenmorgen View Post


I'm only curious because I saw this litter advertised in which Dark appears in the pedigree:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/1051.html
WOW...what a sharp eye!!
now also "les plaines de l'est" must have their litters censored!
Witchhunt!!


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Originally Posted by wildenmorgen View Post
When the Slovakian club doesn't recognize a pedigree, does that mean the FCI won't register the dog/litter, or can this line be registered in other countries?
Slovak club has NO power on pedigrees outside Slovakia...
and if you look on the stats page:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/stats.html
during the last 3 years slovakia produced only 1.57% of total CSW dogs...
so they have practically NO power at all.

By the way Margo...I wonder if we could see number of dogs born by year and by kennel (the most active ones...) we could see some very interesting numbers... big wolfdog producers...
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Old 24-08-2009, 12:06   #24
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Originally Posted by massimo View Post
Witchhunt!!
Please do not forget we are breeding PUREBREED dogs whos origin is known from the beggining. There is no place for mixes breeders. If someone is not able to breed PUREBREED dog such person MUST be hunted...

Why? Expecially because of such cases like the litter from kennel "les plaines de l'est" who is now just a viction that there was no information about the mixes published officialy... The breeder buyed a female of Italian origin and was SURE it is a PUREBREED Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (V'wayta von den Wächter der Krone) and had NO IDEA about the cheated pedigree... Everybody in Italy knows Dark is a wolfdog imported from USA and not a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. And none of the serious breeders was using its blood... But nobody else knew it.... I think it should be stopped already in that time... BUT how to ask Italian CzW Club if exactly main officals breed or own nonbreeds there?


ANYWAY: As a Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs breeder I'm really happy about the new rules given by the new Wolfdog.org-Admin... Maybe it will finally stop the mutt-breeding and the non-breeds will no more spread around in the population. I really don't want to be surprised by the fact when slovak breeding comittee will not allow me to cover my female or bonitate her in Slovakia only because her father would come from one of the "hidden" Italian /or French or ..../ mixed lines... No - for me it is not a witch hunt but smething which should be done already YEARS AGO...

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Originally Posted by massimo View Post
Slovak club has NO power on pedigrees outside Slovakia...
You are right... Outside Slovakia and Czech Republic the breeders are allowed to cheat, register dogs with falsed pedigrees, make unknown mixes and use this non-breeds for breeding... BUT SLOVAKIA is the country of origin and I think they choosed the right wayx because at least there the lines will be CLEAR... free of blood of unknown dogs... At least there we will be able toi cover our females and be sure there puppies will be not "mutts with pedigrees"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
and if you look on the stats page:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/stats.html
during the last 3 years slovakia produced only 1.57% of total CSW dogs...
so they have practically NO power at all.
You are wrong...

Look on Slovakia - BUT NOT on the number of dogs born in Slovakia but look on their INFLUENCE (two of YOUR own dogs are not from Hungary and Germany but are PURE Slovak dogs )... In the fact most of the puppies born in Poland, Germany, Hungary, Holland and France are PURE Czecho-Slovakian lines (read: with SURE MIXES-FREE pedigrees).

Now compare it to the influence of Italian dogs? Sure there biggest amount of dogs are born in Italy but surprising exactly Italian dogs have NO INFLUENCE on the European population of CzW. Sure people from abroad breed with Italian dogs but they use SURE CzechoSovakian-lines (for example Arimminum kennel)... The only kennels which use the "true Italian dogs from kennel breeding nonbreeds" are 1 kennel in France and 1 kennel in Czech Republic...Why...? The answer you can find in Hankas post... because others are AFFRAID - because of the Mutara mixes and unhonest breeders the people from Czech Republic and Slovakia are simply AFFRAID to cover or import ANY dogs from Italy... Because of 2-3 NON-breed loves and mixes breeders from Italy surffer the other REALLY GOOD BREEDERS....
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Last edited by Margo; 24-08-2009 at 12:28.
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Old 24-08-2009, 12:54   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo View Post
Why? Expecially because of such cases like the litter from kennel "les plaines de l'est" who is now just a viction that there was no information about the mixes published officialy... The breeder buyed a female of Italian origin and was SURE it is a PUREBREED Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (V'wayta von den Wächter der Krone) and had NO IDEA about the cheated pedigree...
So the "rule" has it's exceptions... for the poor innocent breeders who were cheated. Good to know!
However von den Wächter der Krone is a french breeder who used Dark.
des Hurlements de l'Ankou is a french breeder who made a litter from the daughter of dark and "les plaines de l'est" is a french breeder who purchased a puppy from "des hurlements". The female was not "of itailan origin"...

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Originally Posted by Margo View Post
BUT how to ask Italian CzW Club if exactly main officals breed or own nonbreeds there?
.
Must quote you here i'm afraid...so right!





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Originally Posted by Margo View Post
because they are AFFRAID - because of the Mutara mixes and unhonest breeders the people from Czech Republic and Slovakia are simply AFFRAID to cover or import ANY dogs from Italy... Because of 2-3 NON-breed loves and mixes breeders from Italy surffer the other REALLY GOOD BREEDERS....
I understand your point and in some parts I agree.
I just want to underline that the first S-litter was born in 2006.
One cannot accuse ALL dogs just because of One litter.
I am owner of a great CSW with clear CSW origins, and I am extreemply proud of him, healthy and strong as not many others, even though he comes from a blacklisted breeder for wolfdog.org , passo del lupo.
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Old 24-08-2009, 13:04   #26
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I am really in accord with the administrator and with margo on everything that concerns the mutaras,ibrid,etc...

However returning to the matter hip dispalsia I would want to submit to you breeders an important reflection of juridical character.

After a consequential litter from a dog c, (in the c there is presence of light displasia according to the classification f.c.i.)in head to the breeder it subsists or less an obligation of information on the possible consequences on the pups?

And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?

I have listen different lawyers, and I have ask an opinion to the official reader centers, for now it would seem that (beginning from the displasia o grades c), for the Italian right, in absence of information from the breeder the buyer that discovers to have a displasic dog have the right to partially get back the paid price for the pup.
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Old 24-08-2009, 13:15   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
So the "rule" has it's exceptions... for the poor innocent breeders who were cheated. Good to know!
I don't think so because I see the litter advertisment dissapeared... So there are no exceptions even for "friends" and victims...

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Originally Posted by massimo View Post
However von den Wächter der Krone is a french breeder who used Dark.
des Hurlements de l'Ankou is a french breeder who made a litter from the daughter of dark and "les plaines de l'est" is a french breeder who purchased a puppy from "des hurlements". The female was not "of itailan origin"...
We should ask French people but so far I know the breeder is from Italy - Alviani Tagliarino... Anyway it DOESN'T matter if he is French or Italian or Chinese breeder... One thing is sure: there are some problems in France population "THANKS TO" the nonbreed offsprings from Villa Doria kennel who was the owner of the mix Dark "---(priv. Locchi)---". But also serious problem with HD because of the offsprings of CAMEI ze Smaragových vodopádů - a female who was bred despite of VERY strong HD. In the bonitation in France we had a very young dog comming from French kennel who is using this line... I NEVER saw a puppy with such serious problems with movement... and I saw many dog which had HD....

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
I understand your point and in some parts I agree.
I just want to underline that the first S-litter was born in 2006.
One cannot accuse ALL dogs just because of One litter.
I FULLY agree with you. We can not ACCUSE all PDL dogs because of one litter. And we can not ACCUSE all Italian breeders because of three who do not understand what "puredog breeding" means... But at the moment the attitude is so... I think the new steps done by the new admin will change the situation - it ALL dogs will be included and ALL suspicius "nonbreed" lines will be marked the breeders will be no more affraid of using dogs from France, Italy or Germany because it is will be CLEARly visible if the lines is "nonbreed-free".... It seems like witch hunt but on the other side it will remove the argument against dogs from the listed countries given by some breeders in the origin countries...
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Old 24-08-2009, 13:17   #28
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Giuseppe, I believe it depends on what agreements you have with the breeder.
He cannot guarantee displasia in ANY way. HD C is "light" displasia.
I am lucky...my first dog is super healthy and I made a verbal agreement (worth more than any written contract!) with both the other breeders whom I trust 100%.
I am sure Paula will inform the new owners about risks and health conditions of parents.
I don't know her at all but from what she writes on the forum I have no doubts about her reliability.
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Old 24-08-2009, 13:32   #29
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And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?
It depends on the country... we discussed it also in Poland because officialy you do not need to make any x-rays and it is common some breeders check the dogs but hide all with worser results. Simply said - if someone in Poland is breeding with dogs without HD-results or you have any of them in the pedigree you can be almost sure the dogs are displatics...

So for the law dogs are like thigs. If you breed with heathly dog OR/AND the owner is informed about the results of the parents, the breeder is not responsible for the results of the puppy. If the dogs are not tested or the results are hidden it is like selling "possible defective product". And the new owner can ask some money back.

But as I told - it can depend on the country... Anyway also the new owner is responsible for the hips of the puppy... And I can really imagine a case where the BREEDER will sue the new owner when the parents were healthy and the puppy is not... Because depending on the sourse sometimes it is listed that 60% of the dispasia depends of the feeding and the conditions in which the puppy is living after leaving the kennel....
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Old 24-08-2009, 17:53   #30
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for now it would seem that (beginning from the displasia o grades c), for the Italian right, in absence of information from the breeder the buyer that discovers to have a displasic dog have the right to partially get back the paid price for the pup.
Well, the issue is very interesting, but to me seems much more complicated. I have some doubts and questions (without easy answers):
What if the breeder matches two CSVs with A or B results (or A/B) and the pup gets C or worse just because the lines of both parents were "contaminated" with poor HD genes? (e.g. like in the case mentioned earlier). Should the breeder be claimed responsible if a pup got a bad HD result? If yes - to how many generations back were it to be traced? Besides, how could the owner prove it was the breeder's fault and not his own, or just bad luck?

Might not in court the breeder act ignorant of the ancestors' HD results? Wolfdog.org is not an official site and the breeders have no obligation to check the dogs HD results here. Are there in your countries any formal registers, consultation of which should/could be made obligatory before the match is approved by the authorities?

Is in any country's legal system knowlege on genetics required from the breeder? If not, don't you guys think it should be codified by FCI that everybody who wants to register a kennel should take a course and/or pass exam in basic genetics? I would also add an exam in elementary ethics and commercial law. Not to secure ethical behaviour of the breeders (I'm not naive), but so that they could not claim later that they didn't know what was ethical/legal and what wasn't!

Every potential buyer has a great chance here, on this site, to find information about the breed, particular dogs, etc. But still, some basic knowledge about dogs and breeding is needed to be able to understand what he/she reads. Some busy people do not have spare time/energy to invest into such research (or dont even realize how important it is) and get talked into buying 'high-risk' pups. Who is to be blamed if a person gets a pup prone to develop HD (or other illness which could be anticipated if the breeder was honest and knowledgeable) and his only fault was that he trusted a nice person who introduced himself as a 'breed expert'?

And last, but not least... Even the most honest, ethical and knowledgeable breeder can make a mistake. Breeders in a way play God, and every match and litter carries risk. Despit all the good will, responsibility, caution, etc. the faulty gene combination may occur all of a sudden or other factors can appear. I wonder how many breeders in your countries are insured against such cases and if insurance systems for breeders exist at all.
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Old 24-08-2009, 18:05   #31
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"Everybody in Italy knows Dark"

Sorry Margo but nobody in Italy know Dark!
Because nobody (or nearly nobody) know Rinauro!
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Old 24-08-2009, 18:09   #32
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Originally Posted by massimo View Post
WOW...what a sharp eye!!
now also "les plaines de l'est" must have their litters censored!
Witchhunt!!
As I said in the last post...I was not trying to start fights...or arguments...or problems. It was honestly a question of curiosity - and that is all. And yes, I do look closely at each litter - for me it is very interesting how the breed evolves, and why breeders make the breeding decisions they do - the decisions made now - good or bad - are the ones that will impact the dogs we own in the future. I was not trying to make a judgement...only to learn. I am very new to all of this, and also very far removed from being as involved as those living in Europe are able to be - I guess I still have some naive questions. I do apologize for any problems I may have caused.

Marcy
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:00   #33
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Originally Posted by pariduzz View Post
After a consequential litter from a dog c, (in the c there is presence of light displasia according to the classification f.c.i.)in head to the breeder it subsists or less an obligation of information on the possible consequences on the pups?
Not only in a litter which you have a C parent, but in all litters the breeder must warn the owners about the possibility of HD and ED, and about the importance of made those exams, even if the dog will not be used on breeding.
As breeder we can never forget that HD and ED are poligenic, and we must to know if our dogs are passing or not such problem to their puppies.
Its for nothing in selection terms, you have an A dog that only made displasic dogs upper than C, and put out of breeding a C dog which had made as worst results a C puppy.

Quote:
And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?
We need see what the veterinary studies say about displasy, a C dog can be mated with nice females which have nice hips as results and line, its the common sense, the same thing works for the ED 1 results.
HD C dogs as ED 1 dogs can have normal life when this result is the truth one.

By veterinary etic, all mediun/big sized animals must made the HD and ED results before mate, C and 1 dogs must be mated with better hip dogs.

So, only by this we can see that the breeder will be completly responsible for the problem IF he had mate dogs with no results or dogs not allowed to be used ( D and E/ 2 and 3), as if he mate two dogs with the same bad results ( C x C / 1 x 1).

Suppose that in a very special case a non-allowed dog must be used on breeding, the future owners must be warned about it, and , in my view, those pups must be donated with a very restrict contract.

But if you made everything all right, according to the etic, with a huge genetic research in the lines used, and even in this way born a puppy with problems, who is responsible for it?
Well.. its the poligenic problem, and the main question is that no one was responsible for it, nor the breeder and much less the owners, so, there enter the common sense again and the serious work.

The first thing you cannot forget, is that this owners will have a lot of expenses with the displasic dog, he will need to gave medicaments and , in the worst cases, make a cirurgie, its a suffer for anyone who loves their dog.
You, as breeder must be sure that this dog will not be used at breeding.

Normally here, the breeders enter in accord with the owners, giving him the possibility of choise another pup, or receive back the exactly same ammount of money he paid in the dog. But for this, the owner must proove to the breeder that the displasic dog was neuthered, so, it solve both problems.
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:09   #34
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On the subject of Hip Dysplasia, I have a question regarding hip scores. I'm curious how the ratings of A, B, C, etc relate to the US scores of "Excellent", "Good", "Fair", "Borderline", "Mild", "Moderate", and "Severe"? Here's a link that explains the differences:

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

I have a hard time relating to a debate on breeding and hip scores when it I can't relate it to the OFA scoring that I'm used to seeing.
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:13   #35
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I have a hard time relating to a debate on breeding and hip scores when it I can't relate it to the OFA scoring that I'm used to seeing.
At the bottom of the site you quoted there is a plain conversion into all systems used
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:17   #36
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HA! Oh god, I feel like an idiot. Guess I need to learn to scroll ALL the way down!!.

Thanks.
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:24   #37
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This is the actual listing of the German Association of Judges on orhtopedic genetic deseases.
http://www.grsk.org/hd_vergleich.htm
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Old 24-08-2009, 21:10   #38
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You excuse me, I don't have rather anything against the nebulosa litter, the male seems to me the typical case of “c” that absolutely we can use with a very clean blood line,probably i'bad express myself and I have not specified that there are not connection with the litter in matter



mine is exclusively a juridical matter in italy and in many consequential juridical systems(derivated from the Roman right) it speaks of "dolus bonus "when our product is exaltated in the limits allowed by the laws ;the limits are more flexible soo ..I can say to have a beautiful tall dog with long legs with perfect hair even if a lot of of these things are not true, everything it reenters in the physiological exaltation of my product.

It is a completely different thing when with fraudulent attitude I say the true or little fellow to give information on the pathologies of my dog, in this case it deals with "dolus malus", here therefore that I wonder me, and I invite you to a reflection on thing it needs to tell the future owners regarding the hip displasia.

of course from clean and perfect dogs can born a displasic puppy

the problem is .. when we can say that we have two healthy dogs? this is possible only in absence of displasia and therefore with two dogs a or b, because as all of you know ...beginning from the c the displasia is present (even if in light form)

It is not only ethic problem, it is lately true in italy we don't know anymore' what is the ethics, for this we will made a juridical and certain confinements, to start to trace a road to avoid that the results were hidden or not declared, perhaps to the foreign countries it is less necessary you are very more scrupulous but I believe is correct to open on the subject a serious discussion (even if I have perhaps, mistaken thread ) also because if it is true that a dog C is able to live a healthy and normal life it is true also that his commercial value won't be that of a dog A or B.
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Old 24-08-2009, 21:51   #39
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the problem is .. when we can say that we have two healthy dogs? this is possible only in absence of displasia and therefore with two dogs a or b, because as all of you know ...beginning from the c the displasia is present (even if in light form)
This is exactly my question! What should the law say in case the parents are beautiful and have A or B HD but BOTH in their lines carry strong displastic genes which can cumulate and in result lead to C (or worse) pups? How far can legal regulations codify such cases?

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It is not only ethic problem, it is lately true in italy we don't know anymore' what is the ethics,
Don't be pessimistic... By ethics I mean simple issues like telling the potential owners about the pup's parents health and character problems, dealing with (pre)payments, etc. In fact ethical behviour is the best investment in the future, because a satisfied customer will bring more clients to business and a dissatisfied one will discourage even more.
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Old 24-08-2009, 22:32   #40
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This is exactly my question! What should the law say in case the parents are beautiful and have A or B HD but BOTH in their lines carry strong displastic genes which can cumulate and in result lead to C (or worse) pups? How far can legal regulations codify such cases?
Yes , but the breeders are not scientists, and as you have already said a certified database it doesn't exist and not even an obligation of investigation about the ancestors, therefore the juridical obligation of breeders are limited only to the health of their own dogs

Obviously the juridical obligations must always be distinguished by ethical and by the conscience of good breeders, in fact if I have a healthy dog with so many relatives displasic it will be my I spell to join him with caution or not to do him really to reproduce
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