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Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars...

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Old 11-05-2010, 21:39   #1
Gypsy Wolf
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Default Working Kennels

Hi all,
Being new to the breed, I am very interested in what kennels are known for producing working vlcaks, particularly those who produce vlcaks for dog sports such as Schutzhund, Mondio Ring, etc.
I think, as a breed, certain dog sports are "natural" to the vlcak, such as tracking/trailing, hunting, agility, and because they are such an intelligent breed, I think arenas such as Rally or Obedience are also easy for a vlcak.
Dog sports that involve defense and fight drive do require certain character traits that are specific and not necessarily desirable in a dog for a pet home.
Hardness, sharpness, high drive, pack drive, prey/retrieve drive, intensity, focus, handler sensitivity, stability, courage and that thing called "heart."
With their heritage being made up of hard-core working German Shepherds, we should see vlcaks with such a temperament. Of course it isn't always easy to live with or control if you don't have the knowledge or outlet for their drive.
Would love to hear who has or produces vlcaks with such temperaments - who else works in such dog sports and what lines they prefer and what breedings they look for.
Thank you all in advance for your knowledge.
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Old 11-05-2010, 21:51   #2
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Great question and one I would like to know more about too.

I would like to know kennels with known records of turning out successful rates of dogs that can title in sport and/or actually used in real life working avenues.

Titles are an objective quantifier for me, so I personally do want to see and be able to track lines of titled dogs, not just people 'thinking' or 'knowing' the dogs can do work.

I don't mind if it is not SchH titles - Personally I do think there are dogs more suited for that sport, as the sport was basically built for another breed, and I do not view the Vlcak as basically an alternative GSD just like I do not view the Doberman as an alternative Rottweiller. But I do want to see some type of thing such as tracking or OB work.

Dual sport - conformation kennels are a huge plus!
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Old 11-05-2010, 22:09   #3
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Very good question

It’s hard for me to say this is a working kennel, as I newer did see any of there dogs But I think they pass the tests you are interested in >>> Kennel Dakmat http://dakmat.wolfdog.cz/anstart.html

If you was looking for Trailing dogs, maybe kennel Zlata Palz would be a better choice ? >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o233.html

Water rescue dog kennel ??? ??? >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1224.html

Of course there are more working kennels and I hope they will be added by somebody that knows more than me and did see them live

But I think you are to look after a litter from two good working dog
And that litter might not be in a working dog kennel at all...

But at least this is a start hope the experts will fill in the rest

Regards / Mikael
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Old 11-05-2010, 22:23   #4
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I'm not sure how frequently people send information into the website, but wolfdog.org maintains a list of dogs with working/sport certificates/titles. From these dogs, you can follow lines where the titles align amongst generations.

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=certificates

I think it's important to remember the point of evolution the breed is at - it is difficult to come by a high level of homogenity in many litters, especially in cases where breeders are trying to maintain a good level of genetic diversity. None of our "lines" are but so diverse from one another, certain relatives can be found in all dogs - many other relatives can be found in high percentages within the breed within 4-5 generations.
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Old 11-05-2010, 22:33   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
I think it's important to remember the point of evolution the breed is at - it is difficult to come by a high level of homogenity in many litters, especially in cases where breeders are trying to maintain a good level of genetic diversity. None of our "lines" are but so diverse from one another, certain relatives can be found in all dogs - many other relatives can be found in high percentages within the breed within 4-5 generations.
That is very true and in reality in the foundation of many breeds, line breeding & otherwise is paramount to stabilizing certain traits that are desireable. This fact and diversity must equally be balanced and taken with importance.. without both there is no way to build a breed to greatness.

Inbreeding & outbreeding needs to be used both appropriately.. without inbreeding, there would be no chance of consistancy, without outbreeding, a likelihood of genetic bottlenecking.

When and if a breeder does decide to line-breed or otherwise breed within a tight group of related dogs, though, I would like to know the exact reason and that reason must be a very good reason with an end goal.

Thanks for the leads, both Marcy and Mikael.

Last edited by yukidomari; 11-05-2010 at 22:43. Reason: rewording..
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Old 11-05-2010, 22:51   #6
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I look for charatcer and I will choose possible good puppy work work. And several years i read about work. Me suggest from Czech kennel dakmat and ©edá eminence but not more now becuase now not train and no more breed for work.

Of new kennel with best opinion i have from other owners who see dogs and i see some dogs and check and same say database with most exams i say for work i will choice of kennels Sotis or z Peronowki. Or old line of dogs z Molu with no italian line. Or old line of Eden severu because i hear new line with crying wolf blood dogs there are shy too. and in italy i have look on Lupi dei Camurati.

it whole list with good kennels i find. but i find some other good work dogs but not more whole kennels. only one two or three puppy with working character.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:53   #7
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I think, as a breed, the vlcak should be a working dog, and any with drive, sound character should be able to work. Of course, breeding for certain traits (like metal affinity or retrieve drive), helps... what is also important, too, is having a solid foundation while the puppy is being raised, good training as the dog develops and of course commitment to training in a given venue.
In the Schutzhund world I see two types of people - those who have a dog they love and want to train in the sport, and those who love the sport and find a dog to be successful with.
It seems that those who work vlcaks love the breed and want to train them in the sport - but there really aren't any Schutzhund sport people who would get a vlcak to compete with... a GSD or a Malinois is easier to be successful with in the sport... and I also don't think there are many trainers out there who are familiar with the breed and working with their unique temperament, which would make it difficult for a novice with a vlcak just getting into sport work.
So I think there are more roadblocks for vlcaks when it comes to titling in sport work, not to mention the relatively few numbers of vlcaks in the world...
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:26   #8
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Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
Hi all,
Being new to the breed, I am very interested in what kennels are known for producing working vlcaks, particularly those who produce vlcaks for dog sports such as Schutzhund, Mondio Ring, etc.
In my opinion there is no such thing as working kennels, there are breeders that work their dogs and prefer owners that work with their dogs. Those breeders of course will have a tendency to use breeding dogs that they know as good workers. I also don´t think that there is any modern breed, especially one which has been favorite for Schutzhund that have taken benefit from the selection for Schutzhund and working lines. The GSH is a good excample for it, the working lines often show a kind of overexited charakter that makes them unsuitable for policework (not to mention the Exterieur) and as a family dog, the Mallinois starts to tend in the same direction, now the Hollandse Herder is getting the next favorite.
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Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
I think, as a breed, certain dog sports are "natural" to the vlcak, such as tracking/trailing, hunting, agility, and because they are such an intelligent breed, I think arenas such as Rally or Obedience are also easy for a vlcak.
Dog sports that involve defense and fight drive do require certain character traits that are specific and not necessarily desirable in a dog for a pet home.
There is always a tendency to mix up sport and work in the true sense of the meaning. The tracking/trailing part is a good example, tracking and trailing are two very different things and tracking is not very logical for a wolfdog to do, it surely will be much more difficult to get him to track like the rules require than to trail like work requires. In trailing he can be one of the best (I personally think he can - in his own way - compete with Bloodhounds) Work requiers one important thing that you don´t need for sport: The ability of the dog to work highly concentrated for a long time, not just short sequences and the ability to know when things are getting serious and no longer play. Also the ability to work as a team.

If you want to go into sport inclusive competitions and you want to be succesfull in the sense of winning quite often the CSW is not the right dog. If you want to have fun and look what your special CSW likes, no problem they are kind of allrounders.
But they have one handicap for the sport section, because they learn so very fast they get bored very easily and because they get quite "mature" in character and don´t have the "will to please" in the way for example a Mallinois or a Border Collie has, they are more difficult to keep motivated for things they don´t see any sense in. The latter is in my opinion the only difference in lines, there are countries like the Czech Republic where the Schutzhund section is very popular and many people work in that direction and countries where this is getting less popular and other sections get more popular.
We have two different sections in our dogs at the moment and all of our dogs are working dogs, not sport dogs. They work a lot in cinema films and TV-productions and are known to do this very good, and I train two of our dogs as non-sport trailers.
Lorenz Farouk is out of Czech lines, he is the best for film work and surely would be good in Schutzhund if we had ever bothered to train him for that, he would be good in Obidience etc. He loves the film work and he will do the same sequence for hours totally enthusiastic all the time because he gets attention for this and praised. But he is soon getting on your nerves in the house because he is always on the jump in case you want him to do something and he is the most useless of our dogs in mantrailing because he is overmotivated and can´t remember which trail you follow as soon as you interrupt him. Very unnerving on trails but absolutely no problem in sports or film work where you work in short sequences but need a highly motivated dog.
Falin my trailer is the typical opposite, she will do film work because it is fun, she principally likes to work and you get treats but if you have to repeat the same sequence over and over again she gets bored, she will continue working but not with the same drive as Farouk, she sees no sense in repeating things over and over again simply because you ask her to.
But she is a brilliant trailer, she has done a very old trail of 13 kms a short time ago in about 3 hours, and she would have done more on that day if we would have asked her to. She loves this kind of work, she really lives for it, she can do extremely old trails, Backtrails, Cartrails, two persons out of one scent article, whatever you need. One reason for that is that she does understand this work in the true sense of the meaning and works as a hunting team with me. The other reason is that she is an independent thinker not a highly obedient dog, something that is essential for a trailer, he has to make his own decisions but still work in a team with you.
And yes she did inherit this ability from her mother and her offspring shows the same as far as I saw them on this work.
But I train with several wolfdogs and all are good trailers, several of them have crying wolves ancestors by the way.
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Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
Hardness, sharpness, high drive, pack drive, prey/retrieve drive, intensity, focus, handler sensitivity, stability, courage and that thing called "heart."
With their heritage being made up of hard-core working German Shepherds, we should see vlcaks with such a temperament. Of course it isn't always easy to live with or control if you don't have the knowledge or outlet for their drive.
Well, you described a Mallinois and though the CSW shows some of those abilities I truely hope they will never show all of them in the amount a Mallinois shows them, it will create problems and it will change the breed. They don´t only have a Shepherd heritage and it has it´s reason that I don´t own (and don´t want to) Shepherds or Mallinois.

Greetings
Ina

Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 12-05-2010 at 07:34.
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:33   #9
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Or old line of Eden severu because i hear new line with crying wolf blood dogs there are shy too.
This is a very good example for what Massimo and several others tried to explain to you. As I know the situation personally I can tell you that the reason is not the Crying Wolf blood but less time the owner had to spend in training her dogs. It also shows very nicely how gossip spreads wrong informations.
No need to answer me.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:51   #10
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Here in Czech does not exist "typicle working kennel", which produce ONLY pups for work. In a few kennels are good working wolfdogs and "normal" wolfdogs too. But I think much owners and breeders here know, exist parts of families, parts of bloodlines ( better is to say groups, because we have wolfdogs in groups), where are really good working wolfdogs. I don´t count their exams (maybe they don´t work in reall and they have not exams), but they have really good working possibilities. They bark, they aport, they do obedience with pleasure, quickly, their eyes hungs on eyes of owner during obedience.....This character is very similar to malinois. It is not utopie, they really exist.
For me is a pitty, if future owners, which want work with wolfdog, does not ask some breeders here (or in some other countries). I hope everybody can advice something. Every next owner can ask a few kennels and ask about good working parents. Emails are gratis, so why don´t write 10, 20 emails to breeders and ask?
Sad is, if owner of puppy really want to do something with puppy, but it is not possible for his character. Is much of these owners which tell : "wolfdog is not breed for work. I had one, I wont train him, but it is not possible"....... And problem is only this, he did not informate before buying of puppy.
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:25   #11
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Again these are dogs that are doing sports, if I would look for a good dog for film-work I would look for a dog with this charakter, it would be easier to handle for this kind of work (a problem would often be the not so wolfish look in many of those dogs) but if I would look for a new trailer for non-sport work I would rather look for a different kind of dog. Cause I can teach every CSW enough obedience but it is much more difficult to get a Mallinois-kind of dog to make decisions against the thought will of the owner during work as a trailer has to make.
And I have never met a wolfdog that couldn´t work at all and had a normal socialisation but very many owners that wanted some kind of housewolf and got one due to their handling. And very many owners of every kind of breed that had the opinion that their poor results on their dog was due to it´s breed, in about 99% it was due to their handling.

Ina
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:20   #12
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I read your answer with interest. I have German Shephards for 17 years now and we are very interested in TWHs as our next dog. From the German Shephards I know that there are working breeds and good looking breeds. Is that the same with TWHs?

We are looking for a robust healthy dog. Is there any specific code that we need to look out for?

Looking forward to receiving your answer.

Carmen
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Old 12-05-2010, 14:09   #13
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Excellent posts Ina.

There is a big difference between sports such as SchH and actual working like personal protection, K9, etc. And I have learned from K9 handlers here that many dogs that excel in SchH are not suitable for actual work.. such as, poor judgment, low nerve, excitable, high prey drive.

Many GSDs from certain regions have been criticized for being overly sporty, which to me is just as bad as overly concentrated on show. Some friends who have dogs in SchH classes say some sections of it are just 'glorified games of tug of war'.

I very much like Hanka's post too. At least in the countries whose dog fancy I generally know, kennels are usually divided quite clearly between "show" (multiple show Champions, etc) and "work/sport" (concentration on some type of work/emphasis on character- even if not real work). So people usually pick between one or the other. For example, you probably would not get a show Australian Shepherd if you had a farm for it to work on, because it would very likely not be able to do, or be able to do well, the work. This is independent of training or handling.

There is very rarely a kennel that concentrates on both at the same time, those are considered excellent kennels. It's interesting to hear that this isn't so in Czech Republic.

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Old 12-05-2010, 14:24   #14
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Excellent posts Ina.

The difference between sports such as SchH and actual working like personal protection, K9, etc is very different. And I have learned from K9 handlers here that many dogs that excel in SchH are not suitable for actual work.. such as, poor judgment, low nerve, excitable, high prey drive.

Many GSDs from certain regions have been criticized for being overly sporty, which to me is just as bad as overly concentrated on show. Some friends who have dogs in SchH classes say some sections of it are just 'glorified games of tug of war'.
The German police will fully agree with that, they face the same problem.
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I very much like Hanka's post too. At least in the countries whose dog fancy I generally know, kennels are usually divided quite clearly between "show" (multiple show Champions, etc) and "work/sport" (concentration on some type of work/emphasis on character- even if not real work). So people usually pick between one or the other. For example, you probably would not get a show Australian Shepherd if you had a farm for it to work on, because it would very likely not be able to do, or be able to do well, the work. This is independent of training or handling.

There is very rarely a kennel that concentrates on both at the same time, those are considered excellent kennels. It's interesting to hear that this isn't so in Czech Republic.
Luckily our breed isn´t that divided yet you will be able to work with most dogs but if you only want to go for Schutzhund-sports you will be better of with some Czech lines.
I find it much better to keep the breed on a level with dogs that are able to work and have a good exterieur. And I sometimes have the impression that on both sides it is often an excuse for using dogs that are not good for one of this two sides. Especially many so called working dogs are very bad in exterieur and their working abilitiy is used as a reason for breeding them, very often their abilities are not over avarage level. And vice versa of course.
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Old 13-05-2010, 00:16   #15
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I sometimes have the impression that on both sides it is often an excuse for using dogs that are not good for one of this two sides. Especially many so called working dogs are very bad in exterieur and their working abilitiy is used as a reason for breeding them, very often their abilities are not over avarage level. And vice versa of course.
This is SO TRUE!! I've noticed this SO much with breeders of all types of dogs. It's glaringly obvious in a lot of show breeds how their original temperaments have been watered down to make manageable show dogs, but people rarely mention how it works the other way with working/sporting dogs. I mean, why would you breed a dog with incorrect structure when it's possible to find another dog with the same temperament/drive that DOES fit well with the standard? I mean, obviously there are more things at play, but I definitely see what you mean about people using such things as an excuse.

Also, I love reading when you talk about your trailing dogs. Every time you mention the temperaments required to do the work, I get excited about the possibility of doing the same thing some day. I might come to you for advice whenever I can finally get my first CSV!
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Old 13-05-2010, 00:20   #16
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To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.
Coming from Malinois and German highline German Shepherds, I do not expect the vlcak to BE either of these breeds, but to have some characteristics that they do - traits that make a good working dog. Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.
To Mikael and Ina, I greatly appreciate your input. My girlfriend and I have both fallen in love with the vlcak and don't want to change them or expect them to be a different breed, but we want to preserve and enhance working characteristics in the breed - the goal, eventually, to be known for good working vlcaks. Of course, this will be some time in the future as our current vlcaks are just infants, and who knows what the future holds...
In any breeding program, care must be taken to stay true to the breed, so that there IS no dichotomy between "pretty" vlcaks and "working" vlcaks.
There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?
I do know a Schutzhund helper who says the lighter a dog's eyes are the nervier it is. I do not have the same experience with eye color, as I have worked with a broad spectrum of breeds - many of whom have a range of eye color. He focuses on German, Dutch & Belgian Shepherds...
So I look forward to seeing the evolution of the vlcak toward the ideal that Karel Hartl envisioned... after all, that is the goal, right?
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Old 13-05-2010, 00:31   #17
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There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?
I do believe there is some correlation between physiology and behavior - sort of a removed example, but I think you'd find the Russian silver fox domestication project very interesting.

Ear dropping, tail wagging, and different fur colors appeared in the group of foxes selectively bred for generations for human friendliness. Also, the skull morphology is markedly broader than their wild, unfriendly cousins.
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Old 13-05-2010, 02:27   #18
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I know in GSD the "coated" dogs do possess more collie-like characteristics than their short-haired counterparts. Collies had been introduced to the GSD back in the day and the plush coat, longer face, softer ears and softer temperament pop up frequently - at least in the "highlines"...
And in both mixed-breed litters or major out-cross litters, the general rule of thumb is that the pup will behave more like the parent it resembles.
I will say that I see a lot of potential in both my Luna and my girlfriend's Pollux. What remains to be seen is if we are capable of fully developing those gifts. I do firmly believe that my dogs' only limitations are my own ability to teach them.
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Old 13-05-2010, 06:13   #19
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For Lunas mom: you wrote:
Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.

It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,( ) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (the pleasure, quick work,quick aport with pleasure, very quick hunting and bitting of figurant.......) There is really different......
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Old 13-05-2010, 07:34   #20
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I've been reading your posts and have the repeated impression that with one exception you're mixing work and sport! BTW thanks Ina for the great posts, you've verbalised my own reflections.

I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties.

We used to have a truly working csv (without a pedigree and looking more like the first csv) that just by accompanying my husband in his field work trained herself to act geological resarch dog. Gradually, human teams relied more and more on her senses: she clearly signalled if a fresh wall in a quarry was approachable or not, she was able to 'gather' the team back after they worked individually in a difficult area (no mobile phones in the 90-ties!), when given the order she could easily find rocks croppin out in very dense forrests, etc, etc.
At home lazy sofa dog, in the field was turning into another animal: quick, exteremely rational and reliable, brave, fit and smart. Still, she was very independent and logical even if this was not human logic - this way she saved at least three people if not from death than surly from serious injuries. When completing a mission she didn't run after wild animals; deers and rabbits could walk next to her nose when she was trailing. What's more she loved that kind of work and when 'retired' at the age of 11-12, we had to give her tasks, otherwise she was getting depressed.

BUT, whenever we wanted her to show off in front of our friends how smart she was - she'd often pretnd a dummy and thus taught us modesty!

Lorka is not even two-years old, so I wouldn't dare to speculate what kind of dog she'd be when she fully matures, but she too, is able to recognise authentic, genuine sitautions from the pretended "mock" ones.
I suppose this is connected with am average very high level of empathy - we simply cannot fool our dogs!
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