Tail

[Mirkawolf]

The pic that did not show up in the previous post..



The same dog - what a horror, he is being measured!

[Navarre]

Mirka, I understand what you said, but i think that the pictures of bonitace that you put on don't say nothing: even dogs with good character (but not trained for this) in this situation can put the tail under the belly.

We saw this at the last bonitace in Italy : absolutely friendly and self confident dogs (especially females) in this new situation put the tail sometimes down. Don't forget that for many of these dogs the most similar situation that they lived was with...the scary veterinary !!!

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Mirka, I understand what you said, but i think that the pictures of bonitace that you put on don't say nothing: even dogs with good character (but not trained for this) in this situation can put the tail under the belly.
We saw this at the last bonitace in Italy : absolutely friendly and self confident dogs (especially females) in this new situation put the tail sometimes down. Don't forget that for many of these dogs the most similar situation that they lived was with...the scary veterinary !!!

I´d maybe agree with this, if I was not present on the bonitation and just saw the pictures. However, I was there and had a chance to observe this (and other dogs) for the whole time of the bonitation, not only when they were measured or even worse, character tested.
And this dog (and some others) were really absolutely scared out of their mind, if anyone would look at them, approach them or try to manipulate them.
I do not call such dogs friendly and confident, but shy and badly socialised.

If a dog is not socialised well and not confident, this will always show up, no matter what the situation is. And opposite, if a dog is self-confident and well socialised, it can handle well even unknown and stressful situations.

Therefore, I will keep my opinion, that shy and unsocialised dog is a shame of its breeder and owner, and creates bad reputation for the breed much more, than a dog with tail up this way or that way

[massimo]

wow...so many arguments in just one thread.

Tail: I may be wrong but the "curly" tails i've seen were generally not short tails but long ones.
A short tail usually doesn't have the possibility to curl as a long one.
I've seen some dogs with not only the curl but also a kind of deviation to the side. which is not the worst defect in the world but doesn't look nice for sure (at it's proven to be genetic...seen mother and puppies with same "problem")
so in general tail which is UP during show shouldn't be penalized at all...instead tails which are below belly for me should be just "good" or even disqualified because of character.
Pictures of characters I've seen in this thread alone, without knowing the environment around and the situation mean absolutely NOTHING.
Many of you know my Oliver and it's generally difficult not to see his tail UP.
But special environments like during washing up (done by a third person) or when he is eating and I am next to him or when mirka's Cira or Monika's Go Go beat him up his tail is under the belly too. If I take a pic of him in those moments...you would get a totally wrong impression of him.

I agree with the pic from Navarre about "curly" and "straight" and I think Short straight is better than long and curly (or deviating)

Hungarian dogs:
it is true that some hungarian dogs have bad characters...just as some italian, some slovak, some czech, some french...bla bla bla.
There is only one hungarian breeder so if you want to speak directly just do it.
It's obvious that breeders with several litters have not enough time to dedicate to socialise all pups...that's a fact.
I am absolutely satisfied of my CW and I know many with very good characters. Some of them are even too hyperactive (Mona's line!)

All depends on blood, owners and of course also breeder.
Whatever the dog may be if owner has done a good socialization it will NEVER be a dog with tail under belly afraid of it's own shadow, I am sure of that.
Massimo

[Nebulosa]

This topic was cleaned, any off topic do there will be imediatelly deleted or moved.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by furyos

an other question ...do yu ever see in real furcas ? ..... y m not alone in france to note this problem ..... sorry ....

If you do not agree with the breed standard (which explain exactly the look and shape of the tail) and you do not agree with Mirka who saw MUCH more CzW with the right character so I have another suggestion: don't you think that the problem can be caused by the difference in the character of the dogs? I heard and hear many critics that in the West Europe the character of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is usualy MUCH worser compared to the character of the dogs in the origin countries.
You are shocked when you see dominant CzW and write it is not correct. But maybe you criticize what you don't know?
I NEVER saw judge which criticized such tail in the origin coutries. In the contrary - for many years the whole champion class was made up of such dogs - SELF CONFIDENT dogs with STRONG character (now it changed a little bit because even in the origin you see more and more "so called" champions with week characters and the tails sometimes even on the belly).
I personaly know many examples when the dogs get worser or much worser note because of the tails caried on the belly. How many dogs you know in France which get worser judgement because of such tails (it means of shy character)? I doubt if any... People write your Ossa is shy but look on the results - she was always judged excellent. Maybe the lack of knowledge about the real character of this breed by the BREEDERS, OWNERS and the JUDGED abroad are the real problem... not the tails carried up...

Originally Posted by freewild

for you what is shape

the first faucille :

or sabre :

because we have on post about the tail

The breed standard has two places which say about the tail:

1) "TAIL: Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape."

And this is sickle:


2) and about the faults:
"FAULTS: - Tail long, set on low and not carried correctly."
"DISQUALIFYING FAULTS : - Tail untypical in set on and carriage. "

Uncorrect carriage of the tail is the tail on the belly... because it says the dog is shy (has untypical character).
END OF THE STORY...


BUT... I must agree I saw both types of the tail (sickle and sambre). Even by one and the same dog... Simply becausethe tail is different when the attitiude of the dog is changing...
The sickle (faucille) tails have dogs with good attitude - dominant but 'happy' with good mood. The tail changes to sabre when the dog is not "joking" and no more happy but EXTREMLY serious and tend to be agressive. Wolves and Czech Wolfdogs with tail carriedg like this say "I'm not joking. I will bite if you do not leave".... In many cases dogs handle like in the pack of dogs (wolves) showing their power and dominance. Dog which will carry tail like sabre in contact to people is no more "typical" and the tail is also not carried typical. WHY? Because agressive behaviour by CzW is a DISQUALIFYING FAULT.

In the gallery of Furcas you published nice photos which show how the tail should be carried by Wolfdogs:


**** CALM ("Set on high, hanging straight down.")


Here you can see exactly how look the correct tail settled up (dogs with correct settlement have tendency sometimes to carry tail like this:




**** HAPPY AND PLAYING (dog is in good mood)



**** EXCITED (tail go up OVER the back line)



*** VERY EXCITED or DOMINANT but HAPPY




I can get and show you later some photos of wolfdogs with the tails up but like sambre but I assure you the dog is in NO WAY a friendly and happy animal... Be happy if you never meet wolfdog like with such tail...

Originally Posted by furyos

wolfin ...we don t speak about caracther but in this post about tail ....yu show dogs in other situation from dog show beauty ...bonitation is an exam to details ..... ok it s not nice to see that but y can understand that too if dogs dion t earn that ..

No - tail is not only "beauty" but MAINLY the character. The tails show you a lot about the character of the specific dog...
I saw the photos of the tail of your dogs. Do you have maybe some photos taken on the dog shows where your dogs have "happy" tails up? Do you have any photos with the tails up? Because the tails carried down can be expresion of two main faults.

1) It can be the defect of 'beauty' - dogs which have uncorrect or too low settled tail tend to carry it always down (in such case the dogs have beauty fault even if you like such carring of the tails). In Nitra I saw something different - dog from France which was carring the tail right way but the tail was MUCH to low settled. Anyway he was also not able to carry the tail up...

2) It can be the defect of the character - unstable dogs will never carry tails up in "stressfull" conditions like dog shows. The extrem case is of course the tail on the belly which is showing the shy character of the dog. Anyway if the dog has always the tail down is a dog which is hard to call a "typical Czechoslovakian Wolfdog"...

So you must be carefull because the most common problems be wolfdogs apply exactly to dogs which carry the tail down... Only by such dogs you can meet shy dogs and dogs with wrong settled and carried tails...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Navarre

A picture can explain what I think and what I mean :

It was the explanation of the judge who made the notice by Beau Isabeau?

First what are the faults by CzW when it comes to the tail:

*** too long (the tail is longer than the hock joint or if it even touch the ground)
*** low set (hard to explain but I showed the right settlement in the last post. Anyway dogs which low settled tail tend to have the tails always down))
*** wrong position (usualy given by dogs which have always tail on the belly so the tail looks like rolled up on the belly)
*** deformed (sometimes you meet dogs with "broken" tails)
*** untypical (it will take dog with basenji tail - so far there were no dogs which get such note)

In many cases you can see also "háček na ocase" (hook on the tail - curly tail). It is a unwanted remains from the German Shepherd Dogs. I think it is what the judge noticed by Beau Isabeau but he/she was wrong. It has NOTHING to do with carring the tail up simply because the GSD do not carry tails like this... Also the picture with tail down is not exactly right because in this case it can apply also for happy dogs with the correct tails...

So what it is about...? "Curly" tail or "háček na ocase" is typical for long tails heritated from German Shepherd Dogs. Because the tail is too long (or "genes" think the tail is too long ) it is curly on the end WHEN the dog is CALM.

So here you have small Beau Isabeau with CORRECT tail:


and adult Beau Isabeau with CORRECT tail


How looks the "curly" tail or "háček na ocase"? Here you have the best example - CALM dogs with curly end of the tail:



In all other cases we can of course discuss how high the dog should carry the tails or how much sickle should be the sickle.... but it is just discussion and private point of view... But the forum is as always open for all discussions...

[furyos]

hi margo ..y respect yu and yur work ...no problem for quality of yur selection ...if y have some doubts from tail(and not just yur tails) is just because after speak with a lot of breeders /judge(not only french don' t worry) /and slovakian owners ...my opinion for tail position is more near navarre 's pictures .... and if for curly tail yu find good position it s yur opinion and y respect yur choice ...but for me y prefer higth and up when dominant attitude is present but more straigth ...(like glazia in a ring )y love very mutch yur "G"litter .... (it' s not a secret ... all french people y meet in dog show know that y like very mutch yur marriage with kondor and joly)....for an other part f caracther and tails ..of course a tail down is a real problem and a fault ..y trust yu and all people y meet ... (they are not saarloos ..... and shy comportment is not good)... y m very happy that yu explain that this forum is open to all discussion ... yu prove that yu are different than "some people"and yur real intelligence and open mind .... thank yu very mutch margo for yur intervention on this "difficult" topic and "different point of vue "subject ... thanks again ...best regards ... frank

[Hanka]

Hi Margo,
I must write: "hacek na ocase" you can see more often during movement. When dog run in the show ring it can have it. And when dog is standing and you want make foto, you can see it - or no. And very often is "hacek" to left or right side. Not only like is on your foto. Try find foto where is dog runing. you can see it better.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I must write: "hacek na ocase" you can see more often during movement. When dog run in the show ring it can have it. And when dog is standing and you want make foto, you can see it - or no. And very often is "hacek" to left or right side. Not only like is on your foto. Try find foto where is dog runing. you can see it better.

No, I showed only the "hacek" - on the one photo you can see exactly what is it... But you are writing about second (but different) thing which Rosik also mendioned as the fault heritated from GSD. It is the tendency to turning the tail on the side. It is no more "hacek" (hook) even is some people mix both things... You can see some tails which are turned to the side but are NOT with "hacek" (the hook) on the end...

[massimo]

Margo, I remember seeing Isabeau and I think also her daughter having the tail slightly turning on the side as you mention.
It doesn't seem a big fault for me but it's not evident on your pics.
Last pic of Isabeau is very nice but the tail is hidden...can't see much!
massimo

[Margo]

You know the turning is so far not described but I see it from time to time by Wolfdogs... I think it will be also included in the new prepared commentary for the breed standard....

So far here is all Sona Bognarova (from Slovakia) prepared:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/files/Articles/en/Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.ppt

I'm sure it will be developed in the future because it can be huge help for us all explaining "what the standard says and what is important"...

[massimo]

thanks Margo, very very interesting.
Confirms Sona is number one for me!
...pity she's leaving.
massimo