Ways of evolving of CzW...

[Kerstin]

To me it looks like wolfdogs are changing these days.
25 years ago they had to work and they where selected by charakter. These days they have to look good.

I know what counts for me

How do you like these dogs? I love them


http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Aro_z_ps.jpg

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/thu...cni_straze.jpg


Regards,
Kerstin

[Hanka]

Originally Posted by Kerstin

To me it looks like wolfdogs are changing these days.
25 years ago they had to work and they where selected by charakter. These days they have to look good.

I know what counts for me

How do you like these dogs? I love them

Yes, I too. I like german sheepdogs
I remember theese type of wolfdogs. Especially Kazan z PS. It was my favorite "wolfdog".
I too, I like geman sheepdogsttp://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Aro_z_ps.jpg

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/thu...cni_straze.jpg

[GalomyOak]

It is amazing how a breed can evolve - for the better, and sometimes the worse. I enjoy looking back at the photos from modern CsWs parents, grandparents, and so on. There are many that a "new" eye to CsWs wouldn't be able to identify from looks - but those foundation dogs must have really exemplified the reasons the breed was created. It's so important to not lose the working features of a breed. The German Shepherd Dog in the AKC in the US has had major issues - people became too concerned with the appearance and gait of the breed, and it got to the point where the dog became less useful rather than more useful with evolution. Many, if not most, people today that are looking for a working line of GSD here buy from European lines - they are much more reliable than the many of the "top" AKC lines. It is wonderful that the CsW is still a mostly pure strain, with much importance given to the characteristics that make it a working breed in considering a breeding match. Hopefully, as the number of dogs within the breed expands, breeders will stay true and honest to the breed and it's purpose.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Kerstin

To me it looks like wolfdogs are changing these days.

Its true and its logically .

Originally Posted by Kerstin

25 years ago they had to work and they where selected by charakter. These days they have to look good.

Yes, today is in mostly countries selecting by exterior ONLY. Selecting like by army is not possible more, because by army was EVERY dog minimally 1 year in intensive training. Try today put to your contract with owners of your puppy, that they must in 1 year have with their dog have minimally BH. Its unreal.

Originally Posted by Kerstin

How do you like these dogs? I love them

I dont know, what you like on this two dogs ? Both are to near to first generations and looks more, like a GSD, than CsW. Aro habe bonitation code for character Oi (nearly imposible to provoke), what was not good for work (and still not good). I know more better examles, than this two, which I like.

As I wrote, today is unreal to push owners to have in 1 year a BH or ZM exams. But am 100% for obligatory working exam for using the dog in breed. And its doesnt matter which exam (exc. endurance exam, which is not working exam, of course). Today is just many relatively simply exams, which can dog reach by only basic training (ZOP, ZZO, RHE etc.). By czech club goes every 2 years (club conference) discussion about it, but no majority is agree yet (I hope it will be changed ).

[Kerstin]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Yes, today is in mostly countries selecting by exterior ONLY. Selecting like by army is not possible more, because by army was EVERY dog minimally 1 year in intensive training. Try today put to your contract with owners of your puppy, that they must in 1 year have with their dog have minimally BH. Its unreal.

For me it is a shame, that dogs are judged by exterior only.
Well, 2 dogs have the BH and I am pretty sure the 3 rd one will pass it also. As a matter of fact I promised my breeder to work with the dog, and I will do so.
But you are right, I do not know if I had signed a contract where I am OBLIGED to do so.

Originally Posted by Pavel

I dont know, what you like on this two dogs ? Both are to near to first generations and looks more, like a GSD, than CsW. Aro habe bonitation code for character Oi (nearly imposible to provoke), what was not good for work (and still not good). I know more better examles, than this two, which I like.

Which kind do you like? I like that they are big self confident dogs. And they look like it. What is wrong with the fact they look like a GSD? 50% or more of them are shepard genes and talking about character you named it. For me as a owner there is nothing wrong with a Oi dog. A dog like this might not be the best choice for a "working dog" - but if I wanted a dog for working on a HIGH LEVEL I would not choose a wolfdog but any other breed like Malinois or Australian shephard, depending on what kind of work I want to do. I know you can work with wolfdogs, and you can get fairly good results but this is real hard work. And I am as lazy as my dog For a good companion living around with people an Oi or Oh dog is perfect. For me as a future breeder I would like to breed Of dogs of course but can you guarantee on genetics?

Originally Posted by Pavel

As I wrote, today is unreal to push owners to have in 1 year a BH or ZM exams. But am 100% for obligatory working exam for using the dog in breed. And its doesnt matter which exam (exc. endurance exam, which is not working exam, of course). Today is just many relatively simply exams, which can dog reach by only basic training (ZOP, ZZO, RHE etc.). By czech club goes every 2 years (club conference) discussion about it, but no majority is agree yet (I hope it will be changed ).

You know that we have the same discussion in Germany. You know that I like working with my dogs- but what examen proofs for sure that you are having a good future working dog? Is it BH? IPO? Obedience? Tracking? Trailing? Agility? Why these or other- why not endurance? Endurance tests had their reason as well - Bad mouth say- big dogs dont make it The above choosen example of the R2 did the 40 km as easy as the ZOP and BH
Isnt it all about attitude?

Greetings,
Kerstin

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Kerstin

What is wrong with the fact they look like a GSD?

They're a little bit outstandard because that say:

Firm type in constitution. Above average size with rectangular frame. In body shape, movement, coat texture, colour of coat and mask, similar to the wolf.

But all person have his personal taste, some like the more wolfish, some like the more GSD.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Kerstin

Which kind do you like?

Doesnt matter, what I like. Standard speaks clear. Simply say - the target is a dog with wolfish exterior, wolfish endurance and character of GSD (means the working line).

Originally Posted by Kerstin

What is wrong with the fact they look like a GSD?

According standard are practically all typically signs of GSD by CsW a faults.

Originally Posted by Kerstin

And I am as lazy as my dog For a good companion living around with people an Oi or Oh dog is perfect. For me as a future breeder I would like to breed Of dogs of course but can you guarantee on genetics?

Again - doesnt matter, what you like. Standard says :
" Lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions, fearless and courageous. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.".
Oi or Oh are not good character according standard. If you need some companion dog, quite, slow - then you must choice other breed. CsW was not breding to be a companion dog only.

Originally Posted by Kerstin

You know that we have the same discussion in Germany. You know that I like working with my dogs- but what examen proofs for sure that you are having a good future working dog? Is it BH? IPO? Obedience? Tracking? Trailing? Agility?

All working exams.

Originally Posted by Kerstin

Why these or other- why not endurance? Endurance tests had their reason as well

Yes, reason yes, but not testing the working gens of dog. Working exams means exam, where dog must know something and shows, that can learn and can working. To endurance exams can go shy dogs, same like dogs, which are absolutely uncontrolable.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Yes, reason yes, but not testing the working gens of dog. Working exams means exam, where dog must know something and shows, that can learn and can working. To endurance exams can go shy dogs, same like dogs, which are absolutely uncontrolable.

Pavel, have you seen any really shy or uncontrollable dog perform endurance test exam in prescribed time? Because just running the 40 km without having the paws injured is not enough to perform the exam. It has to be done in limited time. Of course, if you had ideal conditions (no dogs or people around), you could theoreticaly make it. But with dogs and people around, you loose precious time fighting your dog to run along your bike.

I agree that there are much better working exams (by the way, is Agility working exam in your opinion?).

But I don't think this is the topic of this forum (as well as my reply to Mirka, I confess).

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

It is amazing how a breed can evolve - for the better, and sometimes the worse. I enjoy looking back at the photos from modern CsWs parents, grandparents, and so on. There are many that a "new" eye to CsWs wouldn't be able to identify from looks - but those foundation dogs must have really exemplified the reasons the breed was created. It's so important to not lose the working features of a breed. The German Shepherd Dog in the AKC in the US has had major issues - people became too concerned with the appearance and gait of the breed, and it got to the point where the dog became less useful rather than more useful with evolution. Many, if not most, people today that are looking for a working line of GSD here buy from European lines - they are much more reliable than the many of the "top" AKC lines. It is wonderful that the CsW is still a mostly pure strain, with much importance given to the characteristics that make it a working breed in considering a breeding match. Hopefully, as the number of dogs within the breed expands, breeders will stay true and honest to the breed and it's purpose.

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I would reply anyway.

I've recently just started researching the CsV and one of the first things I've noticed is their similarity now to the beginnings of the GSD. I think it would be amazing to be a part of the start of a breed, like this, where, especially considering what we know these days about health and genetics, you have the opportunity to influence the direction the breed takes. I think that even if the breed's original function isn't in use, the dogs should still be able to perform SOME sort of work. This is why Schutzhund trials were created: to test the German Shepherd Dog's ability when it became impractical to test it by working it how it was originally intended.

Also, as far as the way the original dogs look compared to now, I think it's important to remember that dogs from the first litters of a breed are not going to be the *ideal* example of that breed. New breeds have to work towards something, that's why we judge and test our breeding stock, to get the best of the best and always strive for offspring that are even better and more ideal than the parents.

However, I am not a breeder, and I am very new to all of this. This is just my take on the situation.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Kerstin

How do you like these dogs? I love them
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Aro_z_ps.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/thu...cni_straze.jpg

I not.... If I would like them I would breed German Shepherd Dogs and not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs...

Hartl made our breed because he also didn't liked the character and look of GSD. Character because GSD were to "lazy"; stable but in the fact indifferent for everything what happens near by them (not vigilant enough).
Also the body of GSD was (is) not good enough expecially compared to the wolves...

I like GSD looking like GSD. But not CzW looking and behaving like GSD... Both breed are (should be) different....

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Margo

Hartl made our breed because he also didn't liked the character and look of GSD. Character because GSD were to "lazy"; stable but in the fact indifferent for everything what happens near by them (not vigilant enough).

Vigilant...yes...that's the word that describes the wolfdog over the GSD. If something happens - a car turns onto my road for instance - my wolfdogs know long before my GSD reacts. If a stranger comes to the house, the wolfdogs will run up to investigate - and will usually bark briefly - and then evaluate the situation. Thankfully, all people that have come to my house intend no harm, so they only get some suspicious looks from the wolfdogs - but the wolfdog never, not for a minute, forgets where the people are - and would be my side in a second if trouble started. I've seen this naturally protective side to my wolfdogs only once, when an angry ex-student (age 17, definitely the size of a grown man), came walking aggressively up to me in a back alley (he'd been arrested for promoting gang violence in school, and wasn't very happy with us for expelling him). In all other instances, they accept new people - touching, petting, acting foolish...

In the same situation, at my house, my GSD runs up, also checks out the newcomer - but then she assumes all is okay, and goes about her business - laying in the sun, chewing on a bone. If trouble were to start, she first would look to the wolfdogs to see what to do, and might join in...same training, same upbringing, very average American bred GSD...but I think even she knows that she is not as bright or witty as the wolfdogs...