Differences in bonitations...

[massimo]

Sorry, came out really bad!

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora Atos Brevnovská stopa CS A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ25/4/93 Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

Nono, that I know for sure, it was not an Italian bonitation but czech one.
I am speaking about the "X files" bonitations!!
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/141.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/136.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/122.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/119.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/111.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/102.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/97.html

Do you know if these bonitations are considered NOT VALID by czech club?
massimo

I can say only - no one of this bonitations was suported by Czech club. Czech club dont delegate the judges and it was really only private activity (e.g. Jedlicka is not more just from 2004 member of Czech club).

[Margo]

Originally Posted by jasmine

ahhh Margo! I don't remember that I would write name of dogs/ breeders. And I haven't thinking about Gorbi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The problem is with his owner and not with the dogs!
And I could write about other dogs...but I won't do it in an open forum.....and I won't do it becase not this is the topic : how could we write a lot of bad things about others.
So please go back to the bonitacion beside takeing personality. Nobody was writing about kennels.breeders, dogs just you.

We want to discuss about bonitacio and not fighting with each other. So please mixing the shit!

You were not writing about Gorbi? I though you mean exactly him (because many people started to talk how he can get P1 (excellent note) after such behaviour during the bonitation...)
So you see now it is REALLY better to write the names because in other case there can be HUGE misunderstanding.

I see from the post written by Massimo you were writing about Geryon. It is another good argument to write about some dogs openly - some gossips spread behind the back of the owners and breeders became really funny and far away from the reality. But in such case it is a pitty that "lie repeated often enough become the truth"... So I would like to write about it now...

You were not im Hronec. You just saw some movies made by the mobile phone so it is no wonder what you know about this bonitation is totally different from the reality...
So maybe I can make it more clear to you and all the people which follow our discussion - if I miss something or forget something pleople which were there (Michael, Massimo, Daiva, Satu, and some more) will add something and correct my words...

The bonitation in Hronec was VERY problematic - you can see it on the end results where even very good dogs become notes and character codes which are much worser than the dogs are in reality... The reasons were different - place, stress, number of dogs, many "beginners", aso...
ANYWAY there were 3 more problematic dogs. Problematic during the measurements but really great and normaly behaving in the real life... By all of them they have to be showed by other person (in all three cases by their breeders). When the owner was next to the dogs shared the stress and handled like crazy...
I will not speak about 2 other but about Geryon which you mentioned... It was like Massimo wrote - with Daiva the dog didn't allowed to be measured even when I tried to help her - he was protecting himself and I think it is the video you saw for sure. But later we changed and only I started to show him. Without any problems I get the muzzle off of him and calmed him down - just few nice words and the dog chaged and calmed down. Sona measured him - when he started to get nervous we just stroked him what made him extremly happy and made possible next measurements...
The bonitation was not perfect by Geryon - nobody says it was - but with some training with possitive methods it will be possible to make bonitation without any problems... Anyway the behavoiour which Geryon showed has been put into his bonitation code - as you can see because of such behavoiur he is "only" Od (irritable - distrustfull) and "only" P3 ("very good") and not more Of or Og (well balanced or perfect but less courage) and P1 ("excellent") which he could get if he would behave NORMAL...
As you can see NOTHING has been HIDDEN - all date is visible in the bonitation code...
If you do not believe me please ask Sona Bognarova - judge which made the bonitation or any person which was there and really saw the WHOLE bonitation of Geryon...

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

When he come back Gorbi was so punished, his tongue was BLUE.

I didn't see a blue tongue... just hard pulled by the leash and jumping up and down like crazy and then a calm, not frightened, dog.
I am no liar, I speak for what I see and I confirm my previous statement.
I am strongly against Electric Collar though.
What do you think?
massimo

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

I can say only - no one of this bonitations was suported by Czech club. Czech club dont delegate the judges and it was really only private activity (e.g. Jedlicka is not more just from 2004 member of Czech club).

My question is if the bonitations are RECOGNIZED as valid.
Bonitations made from people not members of Czech Club are also Valid (slovak judges for example).
Can somebody from CZ/SK club help me find out?
massimo

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

I know for sure because I asked Sona Bognarova the lower limit of 60cm is NOT strict for females and they can get a P5 code if 1cm less and everything else is ok.
Is this the same for males in SK? in CZ?

We know just many years is by Slovakian club not strictly limit. Why, can everybody think about . Standard dont give the alternative. I still believe that word "minimum" have always same sense - less is not possible. Or have somebody other sense of this word ?

Originally Posted by massimo

As Oskar Dora is one of the most titled specialized living CSW judges, either the reply is YES for Slovakia or the reply is NO for slovakia and it was an ecception for Poland Bonitation. I suppose there was no special Polish bonitation and it is allowed in Slovakia. Anybody can reply from CZ?

Nobody's perfect. Oskar is freind of my, but he make the bonitation in the slovakian "borders". Generally are CZ and SK bonitation build on same principles, but still exist the differences. Bonitations always developed. 30 years ago looks the bonitation little other, then today.
I critise e.g., that in Pozna were 2 dogs by bonitations shy. And Oskar dont write P14, but breaks the bonitation. Why, when every dog have oficially chance repeat once the character test of bonitation and change the code ?

Originally Posted by massimo

my personal opinion (so it means nothing ) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.

Massimo many times we have totally other meanings, but this your words can I sign 100%.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

My question is if the bonitations are RECOGNIZED as valid.
Bonitations made from people not members of Czech Club are also Valid (slovak judges for example).
Can somebody from CZ/SK club help me find out?
massimo

About it you must ask by CZ and SK Club.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora
Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.

In the case of Gyra you right BUT see Atos Brevnovská stopa CS (A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ 25/4/93). Some dogs get really P14 but not ONLY because of the height but also because they have also other serious faults: for example by Leonardo you have additionaly shy character and wrong bite. By some other dogs it can be also wrong indexes which are not visible but counted for the end note...

[wolfin]

Massimo, about help. Handler helped not only Geryon or Gorbi, this have also Alpestre, and Gema and moore dogs. And all be ok. For Margo it is not first bonitation and she is perfect handler for this.

About electric collar - who have this in bonitation?

I HAVE this and i going with them to training and make this with Malik (an he help me training better Geryons comands).
But el.collar not be ussed in boniation, or maybe you have facts and photo about this?

[*Satu]

Why Elys is 59cm high? Hmmm....
Oskar is very big man and Elys doesn´t like Oskar so Oskar taken very many times high but everytime different high.

One was over 61 and 60 and....
I have couple photos how you can take wolfdogs high mits and dog don´t want stand.

After Oskars results Sasha taken different highs again because Elys likes more Sasha than Oskar and she standing better.

and so many dogshow judges have taken Elys high and all is more that 59cm

But bigger problem is character not how high dog is....

Thanks God ! my dogs are not agressive for anybody and I can walk whit them everywhere.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

I critise e.g., that in Pozna were 2 dogs by bonitations shy. And Oskar dont write P14, but breaks the bonitation. Why, when every dog have oficially chance repeat once the character test of bonitation and change the code ?

It is exactly because of the difference of slovakian bonitation... In Slovakia you judge everything. Not only character test but also how the dog behaves whole time (also during the measurements). So it is not possible to make the character test ONLY - you have to repeat whole bonitation.
In the case of the dogs the bonitation have been broken and will be finished later (maybe soon). So the dogs can repeat ONLY the character test...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Why Elys is 59cm high? Hmmm....
Oskar is very big man and Elys doesn´t like Oskar so Oskar taken very many times high but everytime different high.

One was over 61 and 60 and....
I have couple photos how you can take wolfdogs high mits and dog don´t want stand.

After Oskars results Sasha taken different highs again because Elys likes more Sasha than Oskar and she standing better.

EXACTLY! When the judge knows the dog can be in the reality higher than the measurements taken such dog can get better note and not P14. Beside the height Elys do not have any other faults and it is the reason why Elys is P3 and not P14...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Why Elys is 59cm high? Hmmm....
Oskar is very big man and Elys doesn´t like Oskar so Oskar taken very many times high but everytime different high.

One was over 61 and 60 and....
I have couple photos how you can take wolfdogs high mits and dog don´t want stand.

After Oskars results Sasha taken different highs again because Elys likes more Sasha than Oskar and she standing better.

and so many dogshow judges have taken Elys high and all is more that 59cm

But bigger problem is character not how high dog is....

Thanks God ! my dogs are not agressive for anybody and I can walk whit them everywhere.

Satu, You must have bonitation card and make scan and take to this post. And see who is wright in reality.

i know about cm i have example - dogs in young presentation have 68 cm but in bonitation have only 66 cm.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Margo

It is exactly because of the difference of slovakian bonitation... In Slovakia you judge everything. Not only character test but also how the dog behaves whole time (also during the measurements).

Its same in CZ. But every dog have chance, beacuse we know, that shyness by many dogs is not genetics, "only" bad socialisation. Of course, that repeat character test testing both parts, but measurements are just ready and dont changing.

[Huan]

Originally Posted by Pavel

We know just many years is by Slovakian club not strictly limit. Why, can everybody think about . Standard dont give the alternative. I still believe that word "minimum" have always same sense - less is not possible. Or have somebody other sense of this word ?

Right.. but... it means that males 65cm tall and higher are typical and below 65cm are too short. It's only up to the judge to evaluate how big fault the 1cm is for him. It's obviously a fault according to standard but the same is with dark eyes, big ears, wrong body indexes. It's written "minimum 65cm" but it also written for example "Length of muzzle : Length of cranial region : 1 : 1.5" ... so what's about it? Does it mean that dog with the proportions of 1:1,49 should be disqualified or maybe 1:1,45?? Or 1:1,33?? It's up to the judge... "minimum 65cm" means that the judge has no right to say that the dog with 65,5cm is too short. It's typical according to standard since it 65cm or higher.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

About electric collar - who have this in bonitation?
But el.collar not be ussed in boniation, or maybe you have facts and photo about this?

I didn't speak about Electrical Collar during Bonitation.

Originally Posted by massimo

I am strongly against Electric Collar though.
What do you think?

It was a straightforward statement I say because you say what you saw during Gorbi's bonitation was violence.
Somebody else mentioned it during bonitation, not me:

Originally Posted by *satu

Or why somebody use electricity collar in bonitation?

For me Electric Collar is a stronger violence and I am against it unless the dogs have serious serious problems (better electric collar than being shot down)
Violence to a dog is ALSO to let him do what he wants, to let him be your BOSS, to let him think he can do anything and he is right; it's TOTALLY wrong and can lead to make him be put down in future...
Violence is also the Breeder who sells a difficult dog as CSW without warning the owners about what "could" happen, about Hierarchy, about leadership; breeders who don't care about the dogs they sold anymore and don't care about their future but just the money they bring.
Sorry for this OT but I'm a bit sad, a CSW has recently been put down in Italy because week owners (husband and wife) were badly bit by their male.
Massimo

[wolfin]

but we speak about bonitation, if You wish speak about training and el.collar systems we cann make other new topic.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Przemek

Right.. but... it means that males 65cm tall and higher are typical and below 65cm are too short. It's only up to the judge to evaluate how big fault the 1cm is for him.

Sorry Przemek, you are not right. 65 cm by males and 60 cm by females are MINIMUM. So says standard. Its not about "typical" or not. Its MINIMUM.

Originally Posted by Przemek

It's obviously a fault according to standard but the same is with dark eyes, big ears, wrong body indexes. It's written "minimum 65cm" but it also written for example "Length of muzzle : Length of cranial region : 1 : 1.5" ... so what's about it? Does it mean that dog with the proportions of 1:1,49 should be disqualified or maybe 1:1,45?? Or 1:1,33?? It's up to the judge... "minimum 65cm" means that the judge has no right to say that the dog with 65,5cm is too short. It's typical according to standard since it 65cm or higher.

By e.g. body format is not "minimum" border (same by head format). Its written in faults, whats is wrong. Andy by this two mesurements must judge valuate, but by hight is it clear "minimum" is "minimum". And if dog dont reach minimum high, according not to standard and must get P14.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

but we speak about bonitation, if You wish speak about training and el.collar systems we cann make other new topic.

I spoke about definition of violence, considering that between us we surely have different idea of what violence is, considering what we saw during bonitation.

But if you want to speak about bonitation.

Originally Posted by Margo

... with Daiva the dog didn't allowed to be measured even when I tried to help her - he was protecting himself and I think it is the video you saw for sure. But later we changed and only I started to show him. Without any problems I get the muzzle off of him and calmed him down...

These words speak for themselves.
I have never seen you train your dogs and I cannot judge you. But if I try to understand these words... Geryon was protecting himself from you, or better, from something you do to him which he doesn't like.
I am sure your dog loves you, just as my dogs love me.
I know I don't have much control of my dog when he is in contact with other males.

Originally Posted by *Satu

Thanks God ! my dogs are not aggressive for anybody and I can walk whit them everywhere.

I agree with you Satu, precious words... I wish I could avoid being pulled around when other males are there.
Maybe my dog doesn't respect me as much as he SHOULD.
But I know my dog LOVES and RESPECTS me, and he is ok to be handled by any normally behaving human being without any problem.
Are you sure your dogs do not FEAR you?
Dogs fear violence.
Gorbi wasn't afraid of Michael during bonitation or after, everybody saw this.
Massimo

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

By e.g. body format is not "minimum" border (same by head format)..

But you have PROPORTIONS. Wrong proportions -> DISQUALIFICATION. But see the reality... Even dachshound can be sometimes P1.

Originally Posted by Pavel

Its written in faults, whats is wrong. Andy by this two mesurements must judge valuate, but by hight is it clear "minimum" is "minimum". And if dog dont reach minimum high, according not to standard and must get P14.

Maximum of the ears is 1/6 of the heigh. If it is more then -> wrong proportions of the ears -> P14 also... So why we can see dogs with F2 and P1 (excellent)?
And there are MANY examples like this....

So far the problem is that some people CHOOSED some faults which were more important and made them P14. In CZ you choosed for example the heigh... So far there is no bigger problem with the heigh so I think the Czech breeding comittee should start to watch faults which are EXTREMLY spread by the population like:
- open lips
- heavy heads
- deep and wide chests
- short legs and wrong indexes
Because so far there is no control for this and it is the reason why it is not improving by many lines...