Training Methods - electric collar

[johnslawek]

Being far removed from the central body of CzV owners, I would like to solicit opinions via this forum on the use of electric collars to facilitate training.

[Pavel]

I dont have opinion with using a electrical collar but waht I know, is doesnt matter, if is used for CsW or other races. Basicaly is recommended NEVER use electrical collar alone without any experiences with it. Electrical collar is one of the "extreme" training acessories and may be used only under supervision a good experienced trainer. Because have so strong effect for dog, can helps very much but on other side by wrong using can totaly destroyed the psyche of the dog. BE CARREFULLY !!!

Pavel

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by johnslawek

Being far removed from the central body of CzV owners, I would like to solicit opinions via this forum on the use of electric collars to facilitate training.

we seen only some very "competitive" people in some training fields using this collar with GS and Malinois...their main objective was TO WIN a competition, not the good of the dog.

but....with a CSW you simply can't win a competition...so why use this kind of medioevale torture (yes, very technological, indeed)

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Navarre

so why use this kind of medioevale torture (yes, very technological, indeed)

Am not agree completely. Sure, in the hands of dilettante can be a electrical collar a torture tool. But in the hands a really specialist can help very much. Electrical collar was not developt for "win a competition" but for the hunting dogs mostly for teach him dont eat the snared animals. And by other dogs was starting to use for unlearn the different unwanted habits (hunting instinct, agressivity etc.). Who use this collar for regulary training only for hurry up the process - this is in my eyes really wrong.
Am seen just such cases as well. But am seen used electrical collar by CsW for eliminate the hunting instinct (the dog run e.g. over the highway for the rabbit) and with absolutely succes - dog listen the command, that dont hunt and his character is very well without any "trace" of electric collar using.
Any tool for training must be using with knowledges or experiences. Electrical collar is extreme case and this is reason, why the user must have a extreme high experiences for it. Similary is it by using spiky collar. It can help very much as well but can very fast broken the dog as well.
I dont see anything wrong on using this training tools. But everything must be using "with not empty head". An what is most important, the penalty and reward must be always well balanced. After high penalty for something wrong must be a high reward for the excellent training result. Go to training scholl and watch the people there. Mostly you will see, that no ballance between penalty and reward. First group of people penalisated the dogs very hard and if the dog doing something well, then say "good boy" only. Or other extrem - so called "positive motivation" (today very populary in some countries of western Europe), when never penalisated the dog. Both systems are wrong.
And on the end I must say, that am not 100% as well, of course. Am tend more to the first group of people and some time penalisated the dog more, then rewarding. Nobody's perfect.

Pavel

[johnslawek]

All of your thoughts are appreciated and are given much consideration. The most cogent being the 'risk vs. reward', or penalty vs. reward. Further, it is agreed that in the hands of a scrupulous professional the animal will live a freer and safer life through proper use of the collar. Living near area of dense population with much traffic can be frightening, thus the need for rigid training. It would be unfair to keep the dog on leash forever, as it would be against her nature not to be free and enjoy. The benefit is for the animal and owner to fully enhance an even better relationship. The collar used correctly is not a cruel device.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

hello,
the cases where you really need such a collar are very rare and normally you only need it in extrem cases of hunting or aggression problems.
There exists a newer collar that uses pressure air instead of an electric shock. In most dogs you get pretty good results with it, but it also should only be used by an experienced person, because on a sensible dog it´s pretty hard and you have to have a very good timing with all of these methods.

Ina

[Navarre]

we all agre : the electric collar should be used only for extreme measures and when all other methods are failed.

We tried an E.C. on our arms : a light bite, far lower than a phisoterapic machine...but the result of bad use can be devastating for the relationship between man and dog. Using it on a sennsible dog like a CSW, more sensible than many other dog, is not the right way.(IMHO)

for regular training , simply, it is useless...you can achieve the same good results (maybe in more time) without it.

at our training field there are dogs (not CSW, we are only two) that win competition or take good places, without any use of E.C....

...by the way, these dogs seems VERY HAPPY to train ! (seems that at our training fiedl, we are all in the "second group" : more rewarding than penalisating)

[krivic]

does anyone has any experience with electric shock collar or even better contain'n'train from INNOTEK?

thanks,
miha

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by krivic

does anyone has any experience with electric shock collar or even better contain'n'train from INNOTEK?

Hi Miha,
electric collar was developed mainly for the dogs, used by hunting. By normally training is normally not recommended to use it, because its no sense. If the owner not enought controll the dog with normaly means, then may betrter sold the dog. But electrical collars are using some times by very extremely cases, when by normally systems can be not correct the dogs habits (e.g. hunting instinct, attacking the other dogs etc.). But ALWAYS may be used under supervision of really profesional trainer, which have just experiences with this extremely system. Believe me, I just saw many dogs, they were totally destroyed from misuse the electrical or spiky collar).
Whats is your problem with dog, that you think about using electrical collar ?

Pavel

[G.D.K's]

I use INNOTEK and not so happy with them... if u can find Tri-Tronics is better.

My INNOTEK have 7 levels and not so friendly to change levels, with the Tri-Tronics u can change levels quickly.

If u want the Tri-Tronics so find this model
Tri-Tronics Sport 50S

Rugged, reliable and simple to use
1/2 mile range
6 levels of momentary and continuous stimulation
No stimulation safety "N" position on transmitter
Transmitter contains all controls and comes with lanyard
Insulated contact points are made from surgical stainless steel
Bigger and brighter LED on collar
Easy-On Switch is located on the waterproof collar
Collar strap adjusts to fit any size dog
Transmitter uses replaceable 9V battery (included)
Collar uses rechargeable Ni-MH battery - charger and battery included
Basic Training Video and Manual included
2-year manufacturer's warranty - no charges for service, labor or parts

It's 266US$ in the US.

[Wolfsirius]

You're right Pavel.

I think, when knowledge expires, violence proceed with.
My opinion with this is, that possibility to use electric just on the right moment is very minimum, almost always "shock" will come too late. (reaction time, like as drivng a car) And for wolfdogs i know and saw within these years, i can't never recommend.

-Suski

[fenris]

What about using electirc equipment (negative reinforcement) when trying to suppress hunting-instinc or actually a hunting situation. Have anybody had success suppressing this behaviour in wolfdogs using this or other training methods? ! With hunting I mean situations with wild prey.

Fenris.

[johnslawek]

I have a considerable amount of usage with Tri-Tronics and Dogtra collars here in the USA. It is a misnomer to refer to these collars as shock collars. They are tens units which stimulate muscle tissue and do not cause any pain. They are only disconcerting to the animal. Used properly they enhance the wolfdog's joy of freedom. In a densley populated area they also are added safety for the dog and owner. These devices are like new power tools to the traditional carpenter who resists and fears change. Used properly they merit praise. They are not a painful lesson. This is only my opinion.
John Slawek

[krivic]

thank you all for your replies.
I must agree with John that one of the worst "features" of the human mind is not to follow progress and study inovations. electric collars went through an evolution decades long and are now quite different from their ancestors. this is what I've found out studying electric collars "theory".
I think with modern electric collar dog can exeprience real freedom (which he never will on a leash).
My wolfdog has an extreme hunting/killing instinct which turns otherwise calm and very obedient dog (with school finished with compliments) in to a fearsome hunter that "turns off his ears" and hunts (and "kills") anything that is not dog and smaller than him (EVEN CHILDREN RUNNING!!!). Until now he "only practised" but I really don't want to see it "for real". I know a couple of guys, whose dogs "finished" on a leash and will never again experience free moving and I really hope that electric collar is a solution for saving my doggy for a "dog's life" on a leash.
thanks again and best regards.

[krivic]

Hi Daria,
We did it in school with 10m rope and as I said my dog is very obedient and he does as I say instantly in 90% of situations (it is real pleasure to watch him). but it is that 10% that worries me.
I don't know about huskies but CsZwolfdog is unpredictable and one can never be sure that the instinct is "killed". better $400 than injured child.
thanks and best regards ,
miha

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by krivic

but it is that 10% that worries me.

Dog is not machine !!! Although you used a electrical collar or any other training acessories, dog will be never 100%. Please, read some cynological and ethological literature. From the living creature you never educate 100% obedient machine.

[krivic]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Dog is not machine !!! Although you used a electrical collar or any other training acessories, dog will be never 100%. Please, read some cynological and ethological literature. From the living creature you never educate 100% obedient machine.

why do you think that I want a machine? you've missed the point, sir.
the question here is not weather a dog can be a machine or not, but how you can be 100% sure that he won't attack a child. (I hope we agree here - you go in jail for this (at least here in Slovenia)).
So, you have two options (I hope):
A. a leash
B. (I hope) an electric collar

my question on this forum was for people who have some experience with electric collars and not for those, who equals an electric collar with an electric chair, because they don't read much.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by krivic

the question here is not weather a dog can be a machine or not, but how you can be 100% sure that he won't attack a child.

I dont missed the point. I would like to say only, that you will be never 100% sure, what your dog will doing. 100% sure can be machine only. Dog owner must be always very watchful, because dog can shows very surprising reactions for man, because his senses are many times more sensitive, then by man. And this is reason, why some times dog react on something and we dont see the reason. Through sensitive senses feel dog the enviroment little bit other, then you and you cant understand him never 100%. And electrical collar dont helps in this sense. Its my message, nothing more.

Pavel

[Koos]

Hi to you all,

As was written a dog and even a CSW is a daog with own interests and you cannot be sure, he/she will obey for 100%. Even a GSD don't.
But you can train them all and it is not necessary to use an electric collor.

When your children do not obey you, will you use such a collor also??
And they can tolk to you. A dog don't.

Letty

[ray]

hi
i agree with letty, i personally don't have expeirience with an electric colar but i consulted my trainer after i read this post. the only dogs that i have seen that were trained with such a colar were unhandble, verry bad tempered dogs. by the sound of your dog it seems to me he is not like that and i wodn't do that to a dog because ther is a 10% chance he might be bad.
pain leads to pain
my trainer is an amazing trainer and i will gladly ask him anything, if you wish.
ray