Czech Mutara-Gate - Page 2

Wolfsirius · 15-09-2004, 15:57

Ray , you wrote:

Quote:

"how he wants to continue breeding this dog with more csw. also he wants to breed he's csw with one of her brothers (same blood) because he has one of the better csw here and because for now there is no new blood lines in israel to breed. (i'm working on that part)
so i don't know what we can do about a person like this? "

Only what i can say about this,
and i said to everybody just all these years:

-Think very careful to whom you sell your puppies,
-Don't mate your female for money,
-be ready to keep puppies which you can't find good owner immediatelly longer at home
-make salecontarcts with special condition (even if it won't prevent cases like this, it makes it slower)
-sell dogs as an partowning (breedingrights stays for you) if you doubt new owner even a little
-and once again: interview new owner A LOT ang again and again.
Be sure that new owner is RIGHT for the dog and Breed.

And if accident already happened.. i don't know. I just don't know.

There is just too many CsV in wrong people, in wrong hands just,
that it makes me sick!

look at the puppies list, is it really so, that every puppy can find responsible good lovin' forever home?

(just look at the adults list for an answer)

*Suski

Huan · 15-09-2004, 16:48

Here's an article about the metioned dog show:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/1261.html

loki · 15-09-2004, 23:14

Hello all,
I am a silent reader for more than a year now. I found out about this breed and after researching (well, still am researching) just about decided to work on owning one. Maybe not next year, maybeenot the year after that, but as soon as I can safely say I have what it takes. What makes the breed so attractive to me is just the wolfy look coming on a DOG that can be kept and trained just like a dog. Because it is a dog and no poore wolf-hybrid creature. Condemned to a life with the bad of beeing a wolf (people shy; high prey drive, growing so much more adult then any dog, even the nordics) and the bad of beeing dog (not abel to survive in peace in some woods, being socialized etc.) and the worst of beeing in between the worlds and therefore unpredictable personalitys kept as pets. The long time I take considering is because I see the CWD needs some special time, care and space to prosper (as by the way much more working dogs need) , which includes for me to wait for my kid to grow some more and my garden to expand a little (e.g. by a new house) and -mainly because I was suspicious of the wolf-ancestry. It looked, as if the breed was stable and "dogg" enough to realy be a DOG breed (if certainly special), it had a base of good, healthy and characterwise stable breedingdog population. As a potential owner, and ther for buyer: I dont want to be afraid of getting a freaking hybrid that almost no one can keep for a lot of money for a CWD I wanted to live with me and my family. If I want a hybrid I ask for one. If I want a CWD I want to be sure I get one.
And. yes. CWD will definitely get into trouble with state laws for dogs. Many years it took to proof it is a dog breed. Much efford was put into getting the wolfs charakter traits out. It seems to me desastrous what happens, if the wolf comes back into the breed. Please if possible find at least some distinction for the non. hybridized lines, so I can still safely by a CWD some years from now.

Wiebke
(sorry for the booklength, but I think its aggravating)

loki · 15-09-2004, 23:54

Just one more quick input

PS: did you know about the genetic outfit of dogs beeing able to a certain degree of "interspecies communication" espacially with humans? For example a 4 week old dog-puppy is able to figgure out the meaning of a human pointed finger to help find some food, a wolf never is. Even if inprinted, socialized on humans etc. 10 000 years of coexistence did do some selection that should not be underestimated.
(Max-Planck-Institut for evolutionary anthropology, March 2003)

Wiebke

michaelundinaeichhorn · 16-09-2004, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

You see, that whole "Mutara experiment" is illegal and deceitful case. You all can help us. Activate in your clubs of CsW discussion about it and send the oficially protest against this "experiment".

Hello Pavel,

of course the german club will again protest but I was thinking today that very likely this won´t be enough. I think we should try and find as many foreign-clubmembers as possible that
1. send a protest to the czech FCI section and
2. join the next czech clubmeeting to show there that Monika ist lying and
3. that they will advise their members not to buy any more dogs from the
czech clubmembers, because you cannot be sure of the genetic origin
because of the illegal methods used of the club commitee.
I am sure the slovakian club will help with that but it would be very helpful to have as much countries there as possible and to have translators for both protests and club meetings.
At least the slovakian, czech and german club can talk about that in Philippsreut, but maybe we can find some Italians, Dutch and French people to join us at the next clubmeeting.

Regards Ina

Pavel · 16-09-2004, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

of course the german club will again protest but I was thinking today that very likely this won't be enough. I think we should try and find as many foreign-clubmembers as possible that ...

Thank you for help. You must discuss with "Mutara people" more hard, because they always present on club meetings etc. that only me and "my group" have problems with "Mutara". If I said, that e.g. in german Club Michael Eichhorn is against too, then Monika said, that its not true, because she spoke with him and he said no word about some protest !!!
If you will speaks with this people, then is always better to do it on public with othet people there., which can later give evidence, what who said.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 16-09-2004, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

If I said, that e.g. in german Club Michael Eichhorn is against too, then Monika said, that its not true, because she spoke with him and he said no word about some protest !!!
If you will speaks with this people, then is always better to do it on public with othet people there., which can later give evidence, what who said.

Well, this problem can be solved pretty easily

we need to know the dates of the clubmeeting as soon as possible because of our jobs.
But this means too that the club members don´t know about the protest of the german club, do they never have a look at wolfdog.org? The letter was also signed by Michael. The next letter of protest of our club will have several copies, so you can give it to other people, I think there is no time to be polite to the club commitee any longer if those Mutara-bitches are allready pregnant.

Pavel · 16-09-2004, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

we need to know the dates of the clubmeeting as soon as possible because of our jobs.

Next club meeting (bohemian part of Club) is at 2.10.2004 in Hostivice by Prague.

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But this means too that the club members don't know about the protest of the german club, do they never have a look at wolfdog.org?

Club members are inform very shamy. Of course the people, which dont know the situation believe more, whats written on Club web pages and in Club bulletin. The discussion about it on Club pages was just from server deleted, because we have just there publish arguments, on which have the "Mutara defenders" no arguments again. In this discussion was wrote, that all protests are "manipulation organisated by Pavel Hanuska".
How is possible to lie, you can see simply from answer, which send the CZ Club to german Club like the reaction on his protest (excuse me for the non-profesional translation) :
Mr. Steffen Baldamus, I think, that your doubt have no foundation, because the hybrids, which about you write, dont go and will go in any case to breed. Is necessary 4 generations, which will be very strictly controlled and selected. Meantime will be organisate many discussion and connivance, on which you can participate. About all things will be informed club members (not secret) because the supervision over all have Ing. Hartl.
Best regards
Benes"

As you see, the comitee of CZ club lie and lie. No informations about hybrids yet to club members. Everything is secret. Both hybrids are just after youth presentation, bonitation and HD tests. From this most important information was publish no one character.
And about some "discussion and connivance" I never hear. And you ... ?

Wolfsirius · 16-09-2004, 20:31

Now i have to ask,
what thinks Mr. Hartl about this? Is he in it, or against it? (hybrids)

-Suski

fenris · 16-09-2004, 21:47

Please lets stay sober in this difficult situation. I am sure there is more than one single point of view to this case. Do we see a cultural contrast here? Western europeans emphasize on purity of a breed. Our fancy for shows and exhibitions and the particular interest in the surface of the matter. Racism??? We better be careful.

Today "registered purebred dogs" havent been around until the last hundred years or so. Sometimes we seem to forget what a dog is, what it constists of, and what made and constructed it.

It was not conservatism and puretanism that created our breed. Those conservative people, like german shepherd folks, protested against our breed in the beginning. It is the crossing of "races" that made the vital, forceful Checkoslovakian wolfdog. It waas the openminded and freethinking men that created both the Checkoslovakian and the Saarloos wolfdogs. Despite puretanian protests!!!

All breeds need an outcross now and then. The question is how to do it. FCI has no practice to go by. Thats why breeders and breed-clubs have done this in disguise. Other animal-breeders (horses, cats, farm-animals &.c) do this regularly in a constructive way.

So what I trie to express here is that we should be a little modest in our criticism. Even in the early history of GSD breed-experience shows that wolf-blood is stabilised in a few generations of breeding. To quote Hr Stabel from G. Horowitz book on "The Alsatioan WOlf-Dog": ".....how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomene which are considered to be the result of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who absolutely had the temperament of a sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house. He tells that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolfs blood is lost in a domesticated breed.

I beleive Mr. Hartl and his friends know what they do - and to have a separat line with "mutara"-heritage isnt thad bad ??? You dont have to use it if you dont like it. The "mutara"-blood will quickly be diluted in a few generations. I guess the creators of the Checkoslovakian wolfdogs regret that they didnt take better care of the different lines from the different founder-animals. It seem to me that the breeding favoured a too limited strain out of too small number of founder dogs / wolves.

fenris

Meisel · 16-09-2004, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Please lets stay sober in this difficult situation. I am sure there is more than one single point of view to this case. Do we see a cultural contrast here? Western europeans emphasize on purity of a breed. Our fancy for shows and exhibitions and the particular interest in the surface of the matter. Racism??? We better be careful.

Today "registered purebred dogs" havent been around until the last hundred years or so. Sometimes we seem to forget what a dog is, what it constists of, and what made and constructed it.

It was not conservatism and puretanism that created our breed. Those conservative people, like german shepherd folks, protested against our breed in the beginning. It is the crossing of "races" that made the vital, forceful Checkoslovakian wolfdog. It waas the openminded and freethinking men that created both the Checkoslovakian and the Saarloos wolfdogs. Despite puretanian protests!!!

All breeds need an outcross now and then. The question is how to do it. FCI has no practice to go by. Thats why breeders and breed-clubs have done this in disguise. Other animal-breeders (horses, cats, farm-animals &.c) do this regularly in a constructive way.

So what I trie to express here is that we should be a little modest in our criticism. Even in the early history of GSD breed-experience shows that wolf-blood is stabilised in a few generations of breeding. To quote Hr Stabel from G. Horowitz book on "The Alsatioan WOlf-Dog": ".....how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomene which are considered to be the result of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who absolutely had the temperament of a sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house. He tells that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolfs blood is lost in a domesticated breed.

I beleive Mr. Hartl and his friends know what they do - and to have a separat line with "mutara"-heritage isnt thad bad ??? You dont have to use it if you dont like it. The "mutara"-blood will quickly be diluted in a few generations. I guess the creators of the Checkoslovakian wolfdogs regret that they didnt take better care of the different lines from the different founder-animals. It seem to me that the breeding favoured a too limited strain out of too small number of founder dogs / wolves.

fenris

But why then use a Canadian wolf?????What the F@@##ck has a Canadian wolf to do whith Csw`s

Pavel · 16-09-2004, 22:28

Dear Fenris,
I understand every "experiment". But experiment must have any target and before you start it, you must make a analysis, what is target, how I want to go and under which conditions.
Whole "Mutara experiment" is more or less (isee today, that "more" is better word) a privat "partyzans action" (how we say in czech. Its mean, that is no rules, no target and no conditions for it.
First was whole "experiment" top secret. After my protest, when I publish first time some information about it, was argumented, that this experiment can improve HD situation in CZ.
Let me explain, whats "tragicaly situation" with HD in CZ. Club choiced 5 years ago new veterinary, who make a HD test for all CsW in CZ. After this changing slowly come the HD results by CsW in CZ worst and worst. First time was against this veterinary strongly Ing.Hartl and Monika Soukupova as well. It was a basic reason, why Jinrich Jedlicka steps down on conference 2000 from main breeding consultant of czech club. Ing.Hartl and M,Soukupova continue fighted against this veterinary and want to change him.
In year 2002 from night to day stoped this activity and about this veterinary was never more to hear from this persons. Why ? Because Mutara was just born and "tragicaly situation" with HD is the good argument for using this hybrids.
And whats reality with HD in CZ ? Just many time we let testing HD in CZ and same dog in other country as well. We have 2 dogs, which in CZ have C and in Germany and Poland A. We have 2 dogs, which have in CZ D and in Poland B. We have just 1 dog, which have in CZ C and in Slovakia A. And we have 1 dog with C in CZ and A in Italy. As you see, the problem will be not in really HD but in wrong system of valuation, which our veterinary used.
Now back to Mutara's hybrids. You write about we need a outcross. Please say, why ? What we need improve ? Because outcross only for refreshing the blood without selecting the quality have no sense.
So that who are parents of Mutara hybrids ?
Father is a GSD without pedigree. Its a good working dog GSD type. He is very good on tracing but absolutely wrong by defence work. Exterior is typicaly GSD. Because have no pedigree have no chance to have a officially HD test according FCI rules. Because have no pedigree nobody knows (the owner as well) who were his parents. What he can take to the CsW breed for improvement ? Do you think, that we dont have enought problems with GSD exterior signs, which are faults by CsW (long ears, long tail, not correct mask, falling back etc.) ? See the bonitation codes and you will see, that with this faults we fighting just from beginn the breeding. Can this GSD give the good gens for working ? I never saw any CsW, which have problems on the tracing. And if, then is it only fault of owner. But try to put piece of meat 2 m under ground and I guarantee you, that CsW will found it immediatelly. So this sense we dont need improve. We need improve a talent to defence work. But its very sorry, but this GSD by defence work falling totally down.
Mother is canadian wolf. Because is it pure wolf, nobody knows something about her parents. Because no pedigree, have no chance to get officially HD test. She is relatively good socialisated but nothing more. Character of wolf we dont need to improve. So that last argument can be exterior. But our breed came from carpatian wolf and not from canadian. Mutara "defenders" argumentate, hat wolf is wolf, doesnt matter, which subspecies. Did you ever seen e.G. bengal wolf or other asians subspecies ? Am not a biologican, so that I cant say more about it, but I know, that from crossing GSDxcanadian wolf came Saarloos wolfhod and its totally other dogs breed. Maybe abou the possibily problems e.G. with black or white colors can write here somebody, who have more knowledges.

And on the end. CsW is not more race, which owned czech border police or Ing.Hartl. Its a international recognised breed and from this reason belong us - all CsW owners and breeders. And so that we all have right to decide about such very seriously steps, like new line founding. The group of people, which defend Mutara dont give any informations, everything is hidden, they refuse any discussion about this thema. They only say again and again like mill ".. everything covered Mr.Hartl and breeding comission, and we believ this people 100%...". Do you think, that its a fair access ? Name of Mr. Hartl is only like a trade mark. Dont forget, that he is 80 years old and dont want to have any conflicts with people. He NEVER yet on public speaks about Mutara. Only on web are two articles about this thema signed by him.

If is Mutara seriously experiment, then I waiting published information. And if is it really experiment, which can take improvement for our race, then I will be first, who will vote for it. But yet ...

mijke · 16-09-2004, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Please lets stay sober in this difficult situation. I am sure there is more than one single point of view to this case.

There probably is, but....

When a breeder makes a crossing with (an other breed or wolf) it is their decision and their responsebility.

But for me the point is that such important people in the CZ breedingworld, can manage to bring these hybrids in an official FCI show like these dogs are real CsW's!!!
And for me it is total weard that a hybrid on such a show can get CAC of the judge!

Even on the list of the CZ club you can't see it is a mix. Everywhere Ave Lupo Mutara is mentioned like a real CsW.

You did write: You dont have to use it if you dont like it.
Indead, but how will new owners know that pups of these dogs are not real CsW's?

Thanks to a few alarmed people in CZ , now we all know what is happening. Otherwise nobody had heard of this....

Mijke

fenris · 16-09-2004, 22:35

The canadian wolf has certainly fresh blood. The mutaras arent canadian wolves, they are crossings with a shepherd mix. So I guess the mutaras have similarities to CzW, not identical, but similar. And it is similarities we must go for when cross-breeding. But there can be many reasons for using this crosses in stead of carpatian wolf-crosses. I cannot answer this, but I am curious as you are !. Maybe carpathian wolves are hard to come by ? But I regret to ban this before I know the reason and the true background for it.
fenris

Pavel · 16-09-2004, 22:41

Fenris,
your arguments sounds fine. But first question is, why we need it ?
I can tell you, what we need in character. We have many problems to reach good results by IPO, SchH or similary universal exams. Why ? Because is very less CsW, the biting so hard and rasant like e.G. GSD. Its a worldwide knows problem by CsW. So if we need something, then taking some really guard GSD from army, which is really "hard killer". Then we can with him something improve (I know, taht some people will be not agree, that we need "bitting dogs, but its only theoretical example, what and how we can something improve).
But with Mutara ... ?
Please answer on my basic question, what you mean ?

Huan · 16-09-2004, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Do we see a cultural contrast here? Western europeans emphasize on purity of a breed

I wouldn't say it. I'm against Mutara and I'm from middle-east Europe and by the way: there are many people in Czech Republic and everyone in Slovakia who are against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

I beleive Mr. Hartl and his friends know what they do - and to have a separat line with "mutara"-heritage isnt thad bad ???

Canadian and european wolves are different "breeds". They differ from eachother in regards to exterieur, character and genetics. I will put it simply:
Czechoslovakian wolfdog = european wolf + German shepherdog
This is what the breed standard says and if someone wants to make a canadian wolf cross then nobody will be against it. BUT the involved people should create a new breed and not try to put these animals into our breed!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Our fancy for shows and exhibitions and the particular interest in the surface of the matter. Racism??? We better be careful.

Then I will give you more practical argument: some time ago there was a problem with CzWs in your country (Norway) and some people tried to put CzW on a special list of dangerous dog breeds. And some people tried to do the same in other countries. Luckily there were no reasons to ban CzWs and it was easy to make a protest. But with new wolf crosses we will give a strong argument to opponents of this breed and it will be only a matter of time when CzW will be banned in Norway and other countries

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

It waas the openminded and freethinking men that created both the Checkoslovakian and the Saarloos wolfdogs.

The Czechoslovakian army started CzW experiment because they had a special goal. They wanted to have an extremly resistent dog with perfect orientation sense and unbeatable tracking abilites. This experiment was successful and that's the only reason why we have Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. There was no place for scruples. The breed selection in
army was extremly strict and cruel. And only because of this the breed exists. Now we can't expect that normal people will be able to repeat such selection.

z Peronówki · 16-09-2004, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

The canadian wolf has certainly fresh blood. The mutaras arent canadian wolves, they are crossings with a shepherd mix. So I guess the mutaras have similarities to CzW, not identical, but similar.

No, they are not similar. There is huge difference betweeen European and Canadian Wolf.

1) European Wolves are more compact & packed. But also smaller. They have different heads than Canadian Wolves. There is also huge difference in the coat. Wolves living in USA and Canada have different genes which are responsible for changing the colour during growing. Lupina (mother of Mutaras) was born as wolfish puppy. But now she is totally WHITE. And these genes are also in Mutaras (don't forget Canadian Wolves can be red, black aso.). The ears of European Wolves are shorter, and different settled (Canadian Wolves and also Mutara Mixes have ears similar to Akita Inu - hanging out).
So maybe European and Canadian Wolves are WOLVES but f.e. Husky and Malamute are SPITZs. Similar but still different breeds.....

CANADIAN/AMERICAN WOLVES

EUROPEAN WOLVES

2) There is different character by European Wolves and Canadian Wolves. Canadian are more stable but their mixes are also more similar to Huskies - useless for protection or proffesional work. European Wolves are more nervous and hot-tempered but I think exactly is was the reason that Hartls work was succesfull.

3) There are many breeds which ancestors are Canadian or American Wolves. Almost all spitzs: Huskies, Malamutes, Gronlandsdogs, a.s.o. The most famous is here Saarloos Wolfhound. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are unique - only CzW have blood of European Wolves which is visibible by them. If we will use Mutaras we can already start now to ask FCI to merge Saarloos and Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
Because why to have two different breed if both are THE SAME?

z Peronówki · 16-09-2004, 23:23

Hmmmm....or maybe we should compare real European Wolf:

with

Lupina - mother of the mixes

as puppy:

and now:

michaelundinaeichhorn · 17-09-2004, 07:14

There is one more thing to say about it, the slovakian club is the responsible club for such decisions in the FCI and never was consulted and never wouldn´t even have heard about it without Pavel. Nobody else would have heard about it eather. If they think they really need wolfblood, they could have used European wolf with a CzsWolfdog instead of using the cross they have now. Knowing about European Wolfs the reason propably was that they are more difficult to cross, it takes more time, you very often have to let them grow up together or they won´t mate. But shouldn´t an experiment of this size have enough time to go on properly? There is enough genetic pool at the moment if you just cross slovakian lines in but I have the very strong feeling that they just don´t want to do this, there has been some very nasty talking about the other country in former times and as I know in not so former times from one of the heads of this commitee, it would be quite difficult to explain why the person uses a slovakian male now. They have a quite good male with bonitation and as far as I remember HD A one of the club members bought in Slovakia for breeding, she was told she has to repeat the bonitation and the X-rays!
And as it was mentioned before, everything was done absolutely secretly, they lyed about everything when asked, even to the slovakian club who is the only one to decide about such an experiment, who is the only one who can decide if the mutara mixes can be registered and they have been registered on the csv-list last year - illegally. They are shown as csw now, not even as registered dogs and two bitches seem to be pregnant, do you really think those people will stop their experiment when it shows its a mistake? I am very sure they won´t.

Ina

michaelundinaeichhorn · 17-09-2004, 08:04

We just recieved a mail from a member of the English Kennel Club who wants to get information about our breed because of the troubles they have in England. They want to know especially if they are purebred and if there has been any wolf crossed in in the last years. The English breeders and owners desperately need help ( and of course will get it) but some days ago I would have said there hasn´t been a wolf crossed in since 21 years, they are selected for working dog abillitys, just have a look at wolfdog.org you will find everything about it - I can´t do that any longer and I have to keep secret about the mutara experiment and I am not happy about it. When I imagin the German Bild Zeitung (a yellowpress newspaper) getting onto this I feel sick.

Ina

16-09-2004, 20:31	#29
Wolfsirius Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 118	Now i have to ask, what thinks Mr. Hartl about this? Is he in it, or against it? (hybrids) -Suski __________________ I believe in the Wolf, her spirit and her strength. I respect the power they have and will. Walk beside them and protect them my entire life. -Suski-

16-09-2004, 23:23	#38
z Peronówki VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Późna Posts: 6,995	Hmmmm....or maybe we should compare real European Wolf: with Lupina - mother of the mixes as puppy: and now: __________________ . 'Z PERONÓWKI' FACEBOOK GROUP

15-09-2004, 16:48	#22
Huan Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 912	Here's an article about the metioned dog show: http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/1261.html

15-09-2004, 23:14	#23
loki Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2	Hello all, I am a silent reader for more than a year now. I found out about this breed and after researching (well, still am researching) just about decided to work on owning one. Maybe not next year, maybeenot the year after that, but as soon as I can safely say I have what it takes. What makes the breed so attractive to me is just the wolfy look coming on a DOG that can be kept and trained just like a dog. Because it is a dog and no poore wolf-hybrid creature. Condemned to a life with the bad of beeing a wolf (people shy; high prey drive, growing so much more adult then any dog, even the nordics) and the bad of beeing dog (not abel to survive in peace in some woods, being socialized etc.) and the worst of beeing in between the worlds and therefore unpredictable personalitys kept as pets. The long time I take considering is because I see the CWD needs some special time, care and space to prosper (as by the way much more working dogs need) , which includes for me to wait for my kid to grow some more and my garden to expand a little (e.g. by a new house) and -mainly because I was suspicious of the wolf-ancestry. It looked, as if the breed was stable and "dogg" enough to realy be a DOG breed (if certainly special), it had a base of good, healthy and characterwise stable breedingdog population. As a potential owner, and ther for buyer: I dont want to be afraid of getting a freaking hybrid that almost no one can keep for a lot of money for a CWD I wanted to live with me and my family. If I want a hybrid I ask for one. If I want a CWD I want to be sure I get one. And. yes. CWD will definitely get into trouble with state laws for dogs. Many years it took to proof it is a dog breed. Much efford was put into getting the wolfs charakter traits out. It seems to me desastrous what happens, if the wolf comes back into the breed. Please if possible find at least some distinction for the non. hybridized lines, so I can still safely by a CWD some years from now. Wiebke (sorry for the booklength, but I think its aggravating)

15-09-2004, 23:54	#24
loki Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2	Just one more quick input PS: did you know about the genetic outfit of dogs beeing able to a certain degree of "interspecies communication" espacially with humans? For example a 4 week old dog-puppy is able to figgure out the meaning of a human pointed finger to help find some food, a wolf never is. Even if inprinted, socialized on humans etc. 10 000 years of coexistence did do some selection that should not be underestimated. (Max-Planck-Institut for evolutionary anthropology, March 2003) Wiebke

16-09-2004, 21:47	#30
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	Please lets stay sober in this difficult situation. I am sure there is more than one single point of view to this case. Do we see a cultural contrast here? Western europeans emphasize on purity of a breed. Our fancy for shows and exhibitions and the particular interest in the surface of the matter. Racism??? We better be careful. Today "registered purebred dogs" havent been around until the last hundred years or so. Sometimes we seem to forget what a dog is, what it constists of, and what made and constructed it. It was not conservatism and puretanism that created our breed. Those conservative people, like german shepherd folks, protested against our breed in the beginning. It is the crossing of "races" that made the vital, forceful Checkoslovakian wolfdog. It waas the openminded and freethinking men that created both the Checkoslovakian and the Saarloos wolfdogs. Despite puretanian protests!!! All breeds need an outcross now and then. The question is how to do it. FCI has no practice to go by. Thats why breeders and breed-clubs have done this in disguise. Other animal-breeders (horses, cats, farm-animals &.c) do this regularly in a constructive way. So what I trie to express here is that we should be a little modest in our criticism. Even in the early history of GSD breed-experience shows that wolf-blood is stabilised in a few generations of breeding. To quote Hr Stabel from G. Horowitz book on "The Alsatioan WOlf-Dog": ".....how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomene which are considered to be the result of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who absolutely had the temperament of a sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house. He tells that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolfs blood is lost in a domesticated breed. I beleive Mr. Hartl and his friends know what they do - and to have a separat line with "mutara"-heritage isnt thad bad ??? You dont have to use it if you dont like it. The "mutara"-blood will quickly be diluted in a few generations. I guess the creators of the Checkoslovakian wolfdogs regret that they didnt take better care of the different lines from the different founder-animals. It seem to me that the breeding favoured a too limited strain out of too small number of founder dogs / wolves. fenris

16-09-2004, 22:28	#32
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Dear Fenris, I understand every "experiment". But experiment must have any target and before you start it, you must make a analysis, what is target, how I want to go and under which conditions. Whole "Mutara experiment" is more or less (isee today, that "more" is better word) a privat "partyzans action" (how we say in czech. Its mean, that is no rules, no target and no conditions for it. First was whole "experiment" top secret. After my protest, when I publish first time some information about it, was argumented, that this experiment can improve HD situation in CZ. Let me explain, whats "tragicaly situation" with HD in CZ. Club choiced 5 years ago new veterinary, who make a HD test for all CsW in CZ. After this changing slowly come the HD results by CsW in CZ worst and worst. First time was against this veterinary strongly Ing.Hartl and Monika Soukupova as well. It was a basic reason, why Jinrich Jedlicka steps down on conference 2000 from main breeding consultant of czech club. Ing.Hartl and M,Soukupova continue fighted against this veterinary and want to change him. In year 2002 from night to day stoped this activity and about this veterinary was never more to hear from this persons. Why ? Because Mutara was just born and "tragicaly situation" with HD is the good argument for using this hybrids. And whats reality with HD in CZ ? Just many time we let testing HD in CZ and same dog in other country as well. We have 2 dogs, which in CZ have C and in Germany and Poland A. We have 2 dogs, which have in CZ D and in Poland B. We have just 1 dog, which have in CZ C and in Slovakia A. And we have 1 dog with C in CZ and A in Italy. As you see, the problem will be not in really HD but in wrong system of valuation, which our veterinary used. Now back to Mutara's hybrids. You write about we need a outcross. Please say, why ? What we need improve ? Because outcross only for refreshing the blood without selecting the quality have no sense. So that who are parents of Mutara hybrids ? Father is a GSD without pedigree. Its a good working dog GSD type. He is very good on tracing but absolutely wrong by defence work. Exterior is typicaly GSD. Because have no pedigree have no chance to have a officially HD test according FCI rules. Because have no pedigree nobody knows (the owner as well) who were his parents. What he can take to the CsW breed for improvement ? Do you think, that we dont have enought problems with GSD exterior signs, which are faults by CsW (long ears, long tail, not correct mask, falling back etc.) ? See the bonitation codes and you will see, that with this faults we fighting just from beginn the breeding. Can this GSD give the good gens for working ? I never saw any CsW, which have problems on the tracing. And if, then is it only fault of owner. But try to put piece of meat 2 m under ground and I guarantee you, that CsW will found it immediatelly. So this sense we dont need improve. We need improve a talent to defence work. But its very sorry, but this GSD by defence work falling totally down. Mother is canadian wolf. Because is it pure wolf, nobody knows something about her parents. Because no pedigree, have no chance to get officially HD test. She is relatively good socialisated but nothing more. Character of wolf we dont need to improve. So that last argument can be exterior. But our breed came from carpatian wolf and not from canadian. Mutara "defenders" argumentate, hat wolf is wolf, doesnt matter, which subspecies. Did you ever seen e.G. bengal wolf or other asians subspecies ? Am not a biologican, so that I cant say more about it, but I know, that from crossing GSDxcanadian wolf came Saarloos wolfhod and its totally other dogs breed. Maybe abou the possibily problems e.G. with black or white colors can write here somebody, who have more knowledges. And on the end. CsW is not more race, which owned czech border police or Ing.Hartl. Its a international recognised breed and from this reason belong us - all CsW owners and breeders. And so that we all have right to decide about such very seriously steps, like new line founding. The group of people, which defend Mutara dont give any informations, everything is hidden, they refuse any discussion about this thema. They only say again and again like mill ".. everything covered Mr.Hartl and breeding comission, and we believ this people 100%...". Do you think, that its a fair access ? Name of Mr. Hartl is only like a trade mark. Dont forget, that he is 80 years old and dont want to have any conflicts with people. He NEVER yet on public speaks about Mutara. Only on web are two articles about this thema signed by him. If is Mutara seriously experiment, then I waiting published information. And if is it really experiment, which can take improvement for our race, then I will be first, who will vote for it. But yet ...

16-09-2004, 22:35	#34
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	The canadian wolf has certainly fresh blood. The mutaras arent canadian wolves, they are crossings with a shepherd mix. So I guess the mutaras have similarities to CzW, not identical, but similar. And it is similarities we must go for when cross-breeding. But there can be many reasons for using this crosses in stead of carpatian wolf-crosses. I cannot answer this, but I am curious as you are !. Maybe carpathian wolves are hard to come by ? But I regret to ban this before I know the reason and the true background for it. fenris

16-09-2004, 22:41	#35
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Fenris, your arguments sounds fine. But first question is, why we need it ? I can tell you, what we need in character. We have many problems to reach good results by IPO, SchH or similary universal exams. Why ? Because is very less CsW, the biting so hard and rasant like e.G. GSD. Its a worldwide knows problem by CsW. So if we need something, then taking some really guard GSD from army, which is really "hard killer". Then we can with him something improve (I know, taht some people will be not agree, that we need "bitting dogs, but its only theoretical example, what and how we can something improve). But with Mutara ... ? Please answer on my basic question, what you mean ?

17-09-2004, 07:14	#39
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	There is one more thing to say about it, the slovakian club is the responsible club for such decisions in the FCI and never was consulted and never wouldn´t even have heard about it without Pavel. Nobody else would have heard about it eather. If they think they really need wolfblood, they could have used European wolf with a CzsWolfdog instead of using the cross they have now. Knowing about European Wolfs the reason propably was that they are more difficult to cross, it takes more time, you very often have to let them grow up together or they won´t mate. But shouldn´t an experiment of this size have enough time to go on properly? There is enough genetic pool at the moment if you just cross slovakian lines in but I have the very strong feeling that they just don´t want to do this, there has been some very nasty talking about the other country in former times and as I know in not so former times from one of the heads of this commitee, it would be quite difficult to explain why the person uses a slovakian male now. They have a quite good male with bonitation and as far as I remember HD A one of the club members bought in Slovakia for breeding, she was told she has to repeat the bonitation and the X-rays! And as it was mentioned before, everything was done absolutely secretly, they lyed about everything when asked, even to the slovakian club who is the only one to decide about such an experiment, who is the only one who can decide if the mutara mixes can be registered and they have been registered on the csv-list last year - illegally. They are shown as csw now, not even as registered dogs and two bitches seem to be pregnant, do you really think those people will stop their experiment when it shows its a mistake? I am very sure they won´t. Ina

17-09-2004, 08:04	#40
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	We just recieved a mail from a member of the English Kennel Club who wants to get information about our breed because of the troubles they have in England. They want to know especially if they are purebred and if there has been any wolf crossed in in the last years. The English breeders and owners desperately need help ( and of course will get it) but some days ago I would have said there hasn´t been a wolf crossed in since 21 years, they are selected for working dog abillitys, just have a look at wolfdog.org you will find everything about it - I can´t do that any longer and I have to keep secret about the mutara experiment and I am not happy about it. When I imagin the German Bild Zeitung (a yellowpress newspaper) getting onto this I feel sick. Ina