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Old 26-01-2010, 21:23   #41
Monika
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Originally Posted by Denial View Post


This doesn't mean that humas go from 50 cm to 230 cm, as like 90% of male population goes from 170 to 190 cmq, and almost the same thing is for weight as obesity is not a big problem in nature.
But this topic is much about whining then numbers.

....sorry, but we are comparing healthy animals...not with the genetic mutation or growth failure.. Abou dwarf is another forum....
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Old 27-01-2010, 08:21   #42
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It is interesting to see this dog in relation to his forefathers (father: Cezar od Pavlina, grandfather: Rep z Pohranieni) and his offspring (son: Cino z Rosikova). It would be very interesting to see from the participants in this discussion some comments on his son Cino z Rosikova and his father Cezar - and the relationship in types. Fenris
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Old 27-01-2010, 10:55   #43
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It seems we are going out of topic in some posts.
Bux,the dog, I have NEVER seen in real life.
Monika's links on dog shows are interesting to determine that he was NOT a great show dog, this is a fact.
Maybe problem was character?
Another fact is that he had an amazingly beautiful head. One of the best heads i've ever seen.
This DOESN'T mean he is the best stud one can use.
The best head i've ever seen is surely Galiba Crying wolf.
AGAIN, this doesn't mean he is the best stud one can use.
In fact, there are OTHER factors which make a CSW a great CSW...not just the HEAD.
I will never forget showing a friend (I hope I can still call her that way) some great fotos of a CSW...and she was honestly impressed.
When she saw the dog in real life....her impression was TOTALLY different.

The "health" topic is for me of fundamental importance.
Here I must agree with Monika.
I prefer breeding healthy dogs within standard but not SUPER wolf looking with a life expectation of many years than a CSW who is very very wolfish but with weak health structure.
I have NO DOUBT about that.
We should not forget we are playing with the lives of creatures who learn to love and be loved by us...we cannot risk their lives, we are no longer in the "military-hartl" regime when the breed was born and non appropriate dogs could be buried in huge quantities.
I HATE breeders who "risk" on health of CSWs...using extreem inbreeding or dogs who have produced several displasic puppies or a very displasic dog himself.
I know breeding is a "risk" but some risks are calculated and others not...you can "expect" some consequences of your own risks.
I have a prayer, my greatest prayer is that my dogs live a long healthy life, and die as late as possible, as I pray that my displasic dog will never suffer.

Returning to the topic, from what I see in photos Bux is an extraordinary looking CSW.
Maybe his constitution is not VERY strong or firm, but I am sure that ALL, even Monika would agree with me that it would have been worth using him more than just once with the right female to see if it was possible to get out from this dog the same head and improve the body structure.
After all, that is the main goal of a breeder...to "produce" an improved CSW from already excellent ones...
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Old 27-01-2010, 11:12   #44
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In fact, there are OTHER factors which make a CSW a great CSW...not just the HEAD.

Massimo, write it by red colour and very big font. Maybe this:
In fact, there are OTHER factors which make a CSW a great CSW...not just the HEAD.

And now, tell me, how much breeders do it. I think, not much. Everybody look at WD gallery, he see wolfish head and travel to male only for it. Not matter male is shy or he has tragical movement.....On foto is super wolfish type, so pups will look like wolf too. Shy wolfdogs? Hmmm, no problem, it is wolfdog, shynnes is normal.
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Old 27-01-2010, 11:42   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Shy wolfdogs? Hmmm, no problem, it is wolfdog, shynnes is normal.
Hanka, what you say is right but shyness is NOT only a genetic factor, it ALSO depends on how the dog was brought up.
I have read your opinions on character on other threads and cannot say I agree 100% with you (photo of dog with tail under belly=shy dog...not true!)
But yes, character, structure, bloodline make a CSW...not just head, in this 100% agreement.
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Old 27-01-2010, 11:47   #46
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No problem Massimo. All people are different and nobody can agree in 100%
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Old 27-01-2010, 11:50   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
Monika's links on dog shows are interesting to determine that he was NOT a great show dog, this is a fact.
hello Massimo,

the criteria of beauty in exposure change so much with time and a judge with other that he is, I think, very difficult to advance things similar ......

That would have can be been different if he had been judged by other judges ....... after what I read, and remarks that heard at the time of the visit a judge in France relating to Kondor, I wonder whether his affix was not also a problem .....
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Old 27-01-2010, 11:59   #48
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To me the head is important but mostly what’s inside of it

Judging on the look only, the most important thing will for me be the body structure and not a wolfish head or wolfish light colours...

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 27-01-2010, 12:03   #49
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about great show dog or not

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...cesses&id=7853

while being more explicit, I saw this dog, and I always wonder how judges can give the excellent ones and titles to this type of dog, I am not expert, but there I really do not include/understand ......
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Old 27-01-2010, 12:22   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martiou07 View Post
about great show dog or not

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...cesses&id=7853

while being more explicit, I saw this dog, and I always wonder how judges can give the excellent ones and titles to this type of dog, I am not expert, but there I really do not include/understand ......
Ask Monika

The link but in English >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...cesses&id=7853

/ Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 27-01-2010 at 12:49. Reason: English link
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Old 27-01-2010, 12:50   #51
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Hmmmm, I see looong list of wolfdog experts.
This dog has nothing with cz. wolfdogs
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Old 27-01-2010, 13:03   #52
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i do NOT understand what Sangria Passo del lupo has to do with this thread.
People love passing from serious constructive talk to pure bla bla.
Milions of posts have been written on "mutara" case and i honestly DONT think that one cannot speak because somebody else points out this argument.
I find it childish.
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Old 27-01-2010, 13:06   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika View Post
University of Agriculture in Prague and her students worked as a bachelor and engineering several topics related to CSWs. Concern the processing of metric´ s data and the heredity of character of CSWs.
University scientists received also a grant for research and compare DNA CSW, SAW and Wolves.
Thanks. Would it be possible to access those papers ?
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Old 27-01-2010, 13:11   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
i do NOT understand what Sangria Passo del lupo has to do with this thread.
People love passing from serious constructive talk to pure bla bla.
Milions of posts have been written on "mutara" case and i honestly DONT think that one cannot speak because somebody else points out this argument.
I find it childish.
Massimo, the report/ratio is right that I want to render comprehensible you that I do not see how these remarks on a dog such as Bux was, can be objective when that is seen .....

is for that I started well with "great show dog or not " , this remark of your share which appeared completely moved for like attending you since good a long time them dog show

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Monika's links on dog shows are interesting to determine that he was NOT a great show dog, this is a fact.
is this well of you??

Sorry, but Sangria is, I find very an good example to render comprehensible you ....

Afflicted but of the remarks basing itself on result dog show, I do not pay any attention to that ....

you understand ??
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Old 27-01-2010, 14:43   #55
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Yes, Sangria have much to do here and not only, you can add the huge ammount of atipical dogs which win dogshows as "excelent" without any problems.
It will enter in this topic because still have people who dreams that dogshows select something or that dogshows results mean something about the dog.

We entered here also about "select only head", and that who are guilty for that is breder, right? I dont think so, I already had seen some dogshows in Europe with random judges as with "experts' and one thing I didn't saw was people ABLE to judge other thing than only the dog "static", isn't a shame that mostly judges have no idea about how the dog should move? Sorry its one of the most important things as you get some problems in the dogs body.
As nobody judge it, as judges only pay attention to the only thing some of them know to judge, small ears and clear eyes, so, is that some breeders select.

Should I remind also about the huge politicage wich dogshows are full?
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Old 27-01-2010, 15:00   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martiou07 View Post
Sorry, but Sangria is, I find very an good example to render comprehensible you ....

Afflicted but of the remarks basing itself on result dog show, I do not pay any attention to that ....
I agree - Sangria and the 'disaster-Mutara-Project' is the best example that there are breeders which do not even have the basic idea about the breed and its standard....

Nebulosa - you right, there are more untypical Wolfdogs which are similar to Mutaras. And there are dogs which move horrible.

But all these things are caused by the same: IGNORANCE. UTTER lack of knowledge... by so called "experienced-breeders" and "expert-judges".
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Old 27-01-2010, 15:29   #57
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well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog

By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.

Freeking is a beautifull dog, but what is the matter beetween 13 years and 60 KG? If the dog gets older an makes less movement just give him less food, maybe he could live some more moths keeping his shape right.
I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.
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Old 27-01-2010, 15:42   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denial View Post
well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog
New show lines? Now I wait for Mutara-II-Projecct (CzW x beagle) and Extra-Show-Mutara-III-Project (CzW x Afghan hound)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denial View Post
By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.
You right. In the fact there are many reserches which say that exactly the aspirations of breeders to breed heavier and bigger dogs are the main factores for dysplasia and other similar problems.
And it is visible also by CzW: in heavy lines there are MUCH MORE serious problem with ED, HD and untypical movement than by the right build (not light, just NORMAL).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denial View Post
I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.
NO, Wolfdog is calecting such infromations... So maybe one day elf will prepare us some stats. Anyway when I was colecting the data is was really easy to see: heavy dogs (in the direction to be lymphatic) not only live shorter. But also "worser" - earlier they look "old" very fast...

I saw some REALLY heavy Wolfdogs and it was SAD look. Such animals are simply handicapped when we compare them to "normal" CzWs...
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Old 27-01-2010, 18:14   #59
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Here are the graphs I had for HD vs size, 1107 dogs with HD+bonitation (raw data at the bottom: i.e. check not many entries for some size...).

HD A+B




HD C+D+E




HD A




HD B




HD C




HD D




HD E




73cm = {'A': 3, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 1, 'D': 0, 'F': 0}
72cm = {'A': 13, 'C': 6, 'B': 3, 'E': 0, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
70cm = {'A': 32, 'C': 9, 'B': 9, 'E': 4, 'D': 5, 'F': 0}
71cm = {'A': 21, 'C': 3, 'B': 5, 'E': 3, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
69cm = {'A': 42, 'C': 11, 'B': 10, 'E': 4, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
68cm = {'A': 40, 'C': 13, 'B': 15, 'E': 1, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
67cm = {'A': 59, 'C': 14, 'B': 11, 'E': 2, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
66cm = {'A': 52, 'C': 14, 'B': 14, 'E': 0, 'D': 9, 'F': 0}
65cm = {'A': 56, 'C': 9, 'B': 16, 'E': 3, 'D': 8, 'F': 0}
64cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 13, 'B': 19, 'E': 1, 'D': 4, 'F': 0}
63cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 8, 'B': 16, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0}
62cm = {'A': 65, 'C': 21, 'B': 20, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0}
61cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 13, 'B': 11, 'E': 5, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
60cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 4, 'B': 6, 'E': 1, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
59cm = {'A': 4, 'C': 1, 'B': 2, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
58cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
57cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
55cm = {'A': 0, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 0, 'F': 0}
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Old 27-01-2010, 18:38   #60
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hmmmmmmmmm... Did you come to any conclusion about the size and the effect of HD from this info...

Sorry ta ask, but I´m stupid

Best regards / Mikael
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