What is an interesting pedigree?

[elf]

I cannot say for sure. Maybe Hanka ? BTW, did Karel Skoupy had a try ?

Not clear lines from these groups comes IMHO from the fact these groups show "old snapshot" of the breed. But, like in chess, it's better to have a plan, even if not perfect, than no plan .

[elf]

BREEDING GROUPS

Here is what can help, I added "Breeding groups" to the tool, basically it search in a dog pedigree (or planned mating) the presence of another dog (and its %).

Let say I want to know if Cett Malý Bysterec has Amur z Dáblova kanonu in it's pedigree, I find both dog ID with Find ID, then in "Enter dog ID:" I enter the ID of Cett Malý Bysterec (6382) and in "ID to check in pedigree: " the ID of Amur z Dáblova kanonu (796) It gives: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...d_to_check=796





=> Amur z Dáblova kanonu is not in Cett Malý Bysterec pedigree

Check for Káj z Rosíkova CS in Cett Malý Bysterec pedigree: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...d_to_check=929

=> Káj z Rosíkova CS is in Cett Malý Bysterec pedigree, and we see how.

Check for Dinon Dánon Fehérlófia in Oliver Passo del Lupo pedigree: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco..._to_check=1043

NB: we can also use the + operator to check for a mating, for exemple does Cutt ---dell Irco Sortiere--- (3584) would be in pedigree of Furcas z Peronówki (7818) + Orion Eden severu (7968), I enter 7818+7968 in Enter dog ID and 3584 in ID to check in pedigree: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco..._to_check=3584



Does Cita z Doušova dvora would be in pedigree of Furcas z Peronówki + Orion Eden severu : http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...d_to_check=924

And so on...

[Hanka]

Hi, now we have two days before club conferention, so I think everybody here in club has much other work. Please wait a few days for answer.

[of_Mercedes_Dream]

@ Hanka,
1/How do you see the genopool in Belgium? Which groups are already in Belgium?
2/What is the most important in breeding CSV? Bloodline, bonitation, workingtitles,HD,... . Also for me the show results are the less important.
Patrick

[elf]

1/How do you see the genopool in Belgium? Which groups are already in Belgium?

What you can do is to find all dogs living in Belgium with: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...ountry=Belgien

Then on the left you have all dogs, let's click on the first one (it's ID is automatically filled): http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...rm.py?id=11570

Then click on "CZ breedings groups": http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...y?dog_id=11570

To have a picture of the whole country you need to do it for all dogs in Belgium, I don't add the option to do this on the server because the load (calculation) would be too high (if many do this the same time), but you still can have a picture doing it by hand for each dog in Belgium. I can do it on my local computer, run it and wait 15min for the result for exemple, but to give this option available for everyone is more challenging... or we would need a big server.

2/What is the most important in breeding CSV? Bloodline, bonitation, workingtitles,HD

What breeding programs usually do is to create a breeding value for each dogs according to criterions you choose. Let say for exemple you have/want 4 criterions:

- A: HD
- B: bloodline
- C: bonitation
- D: working title

Then you need to add some ponderation to say which criterions are more important (at the moment for the breed, or in your specific contry etc) than other. Let's say a for HD, b for bloodline, c for bonitation, d for working title, then the dog breeding value is:

dogBV = aA + bB + cC + dD

With this number for each dog you can set up some large scale breeding plan.

[jmvdwiel]

Is there also an option to find a matching partner for you dog which has different breedings groups?

[Hanka]

Hi Patrick,
I will contact you next week, OK?

[Hanka]

Hi friends, sorry about my late, I was a little busy .
So for Ste:
Tristan della Lacha VIII group

for Buideiwolf:
Delan van Hiemrod II group

[Hanka]

Hi Patrick,
please sorry about my late. You know, if you will need something, I am always ready to help you.
Alfi gr. II
Altraz gr. II
Ariph gr.IV (but this his pedigree is mixture )
Fenrir gr. II
Foalan gr. II
Heron gr. I
Snow gr. VI
if you want to look at other males in groups and see where are "your" belgian males, you can see it here:
http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Situation-in-c...eding-now.html

[elf]

SK is building/updating their breeding groups, I think that CZ and SK should work together on this and share groups, is it the case ? I don't know SK groups, but at least CZ groups would benefit an update.

[Hanka]

OK Elf. When will be on list some new czech males after bonitations, I will write you new list.
Slovaks- I don´t know slovak groups too. Maybe Saschia will inform us.

[wolfin]

Hanka, I have one question: example
have a litter B Sotis ( only like example i thake this dog)
in breeding plan are only Brian and Basco. Others male from this B Sotis litter can people used like reproductor or mas only this Brian/Basco who are in list?

thanks for explain

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by elf

SK is building/updating their breeding groups, I think that CZ and SK should work together on this and share groups, is it the case ? I don't know SK groups, but at least CZ groups would benefit an update.

No. We miss here one really important thing - the goal for breeders from other countries is not to copy the CZECH (or Slovak) lines but to make THEIR OWN. It is what has be told to me many times during my visits in Slovakia.

Breeders should cooperate but every country has different blood and different opportunities. At the same time every country is able to make only few groups. For the whole POPULATION it would be much beter if there would be more different lines and not the few "Czech"; it would be much beter if every country will make their own lines.

What it means - it is better to THINK than to COPY...
Example: one of the listed groups is a real Pandora's box: full of dogs which are not only looking like German Shepherds but also suffering from serious problems with hips and elbows. Simply said: horrible look + horrible health problems. For years I was happy that we didn't have dogs from this group in Poland.... Till last year. One of the brainless breeders make huge promotion for this blood and there were few litters born.
Should I be hapy to have this "unique" and "seldom" line by us? No, I'm not. Especially when I see the puppies on our dog shows. Already at the early age they are moving like ill german shepherds. Not able to jump, not able to run harmonious. Tired to death after 5 minuts of playing. It is VERY SAD look when you see puppies which would like to play but are not able to do this because of the totally body failure.

No - really not everything is good to be copied and not all blood lines are worth to be saved.... Lines are important but not at all costs....


So my idea is - it will be better not to base on the Czech lines but to make a program which will show offsprings of specific dogs which are already "on the merket". For example if someone will decide to make "Gar z Rosikova" line the program should give as results stud dogs with the highest amount of Gar z Rosikova blood. It would be universal solution which every country, every breeder and every club can use

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Margo

So my idea is - it will be better not to base on the Czech lines but to make a program which will show offsprings of specific dogs which are already "on the merket". For example if someone will decide to make "Gar z Rosikova" line the program should give as results stud dogs with the highest amount of Gar z Rosikova blood. It would be universal solution which every country, every breeder and every club can use

good idea, Elf can make this now in Your site or maybe have this in future

[ste]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi friends, sorry about my late, I was a little busy .
So for Ste:
Tristan della Lacha VIII group

Sorry, I don't understand..you consider the most imortant dog or you make a sum between the dogs of each group? for Tristan:
Looking at father line :
Gr V: Bak 6.25,Barry 1.5625 = 7.8125 ?
Gr VII : Ariska 6.25, Cita 9.375 = 15.625 ?
Gr VIII: Ajax 6.25

Father+mother:
The higher are Bak and CIta, both with 9.375 ; the sum of the groups :
V : 12.5
VII : 17.1875
VIII: 12.5

Why the group should be the VIII?
Thanks...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Margo

Example: one of the listed groups is a real Pandora's box: full of dogs which are not only looking like German Shepherds but also suffering from serious problems with hips and elbows. Simply said: horrible look + horrible health problems.

No - really not everything is good to be copied and not all blood lines are worth to be saved.... Lines are important but not at all costs....

I agree for 100%, the groups are not enough health tested, for building up a program like this HD is not enough, especially when you expect people to use HD D dogs, you need at least ED and genetic eye problems, better every test available even if it is not to use at the moment in breeding it might be usefull in the future. If you only concentrate on low inbreeding you can spread health problems into groups that weren´t affected before.

Ina

[elf]

Originally Posted by Margo
So my idea is - it will be better not to base on the Czech lines but to make a program which will show offsprings of specific dogs which are already "on the merket". For example if someone will decide to make "Gar z Rosikova" line the program should give as results stud dogs with the highest amount of Gar z Rosikova blood. It would be universal solution which every country, every breeder and every club can use

good idea, Elf can make this now in Your site or maybe have this in future

I think I can't make it . Would consume too much bandwidth on server side, I could do a standalone tool for that, each breeder could use on it's own PC... but then there would be the database update process problem to fix.

I guess I understood what you mean Margo, but I still have the idea we should build a kind of "unified" breeding groups which would be valid for all country, let's say for exemple 50 CSV blood the most represented in the breed (i.e. in the "living" CSV -ones born after 1995 for exemple-), would it make sense ?

[Hanka]

I will be happy if I will see SOME groups in other countries too. But I see nothing...And: who will make it?
It is easy to critise to work of breeders in some country. But in other countries I don´t see some similar work....
Why don´t exist groups in Poland? I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise....
And: in every country are good and bad dogs. It is nature. it is our work, to do our breed better.

[wolfin]

Hanka please explaine my question
thanks

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I will be happy if I will see SOME groups in other countries too. But I see nothing...And: who will make it?

Calm down. I just want to discuss... Really - cool without any subtextes.

Why some of the groups exist? Why you choosed these dogs and not other? Why they are so important? What was the reason to divide the stud dogs this way? Why you choosed this and not other? Why you want to fight for group which do not have ANY advantages? It is what we all want to ask here.

In the Pandora case:
Leave Poland - let's take Germany. They do not have breeding dogs with this "pandora" blood at the moment. How do you want to convince breeders there to use this blood when 6 puppies of 7-8 born in every litter will have visible problems to move on the proper way? And about 50% will be dysplatic. What can explain such extremly risky breeding?
I just want to know why it is so important to keep this "damned" line? What there is so important to sacrifice so many puppies? I just want to understand it.

Now one example to make clear what i mean. Let's take you have in CZ 10 lines. 8 are nice and healthy (at least "normal"). Two are horrible - with huge health problems. Dogs from the 8 groups spread in the country without any problems - because breeders use these dogs because they are nice, have good character. Many of these dog get breeding rights because they have nice hips and are doing well on dog shows.
By the two "horrible" lines the number of dogs is decreasing - because nobody want to breed with these dogs, because the puppies are much worser than average. Because of the bad hips only few of them get breeding rights. Nobody who is interested in breeding is buying such dogs so there are less and less dogs in these groups.
If the club want to preserve this 2 grooup the breeding comission must "block" dogs from the 8 good "healthy" lines and force the breeders to use dogs from these 2 "ill" lines. Right?
My question is: WHY? Why to preserve ill lines? For the breed it would be advantage if they will dissappear. Maybe in this place you can make another "new" but HEATHLY group....?

I really understand that the club want to keep uncommon lines and I REALLY respect your work in CZ. I know that there are many "lemmings" - breeders which cover their females with every "winner" - it is enough that a dog win some shows and many lemmings want to cover with him their bitches EVEN if the dogs has untypical body, even if it has untypical character, comes from a very common line with many health problems and is absolutly not fitting to the female... I know that lemmings makes in the most cases the majority of the breeders.
And in Czech Republic and Slovakia the club is a nice tool to control the lemmings...

I fully agree with keeping uncommon lines. Blood of several dogs "survived" only because I covered with these stud dogs and make some advertising. Some of them changed from "unknown" even to "common"... I do not care of a dog is World Winner or Club Winner. Titles are unimportant. BUT the dog must be Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (and not Czechoslovakian Shepherd) and must be healthy. I know that some lines had "bad time" and one generation was sometimes not so great but other are already OK. I have nothing against such lines. But what is the goal to keep lines where there are several generations of dogs with serious health problems? And the number of ill dogs do not seem to decrease...

Originally Posted by Hanka

It is easy to critise to work of breeders in some country.

Hanka, do you really see no problems with the list you published? With the honesty of the rules?

Sorry, but I don't think that ANY breeder from Poland will be interested in your offer to "help". Do you wonder why? Let's take your list:
http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Situation-in-c...eding-now.html
CZECH REPRODUCTORS
On this list you have ONE dog from Poland. One of 24 stud dogs available. Dog which is not even owned by Czech Club member. It is not the best one. It is not the most interesting or unique one. It is not the healthiest one. It is not the one with the best character. What is the reason why exactly THIS (and only this) dog it is the only Polish dog on this list?

Polish kennels are banned? OK, let it be. But WHY there is no Kirk Kroy Eden severu (the ONLY son of Dragon Eden severu who has not offsprings so far) and Max z Litavské kotliny. Both are CZECH dogs, from CZECH kennels. With BONITATIONS and HD-RESULTS.

And such "mysery" thing happend already for years... It is really not the first case where you do not even allow Czech breeders to use really good dogs from abroad...

There is really a difference between COOPERATION and EXPLOITING. And what you offer is not cooperation...

Originally Posted by Hanka

But in other countries I don´t see some similar work....

It is not about do the same work. It really make no sence that for example German breeders will destroy their lines and start to breed according the Czech lines. Especialy that you can see that Czech lines are made for CZECH Republic. Read your own words: http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Situation-in-c...ding-now.html:
"Without offsprings in Czech Rep."

You care only which dogs have offsprings in CZ. And even if breeders in other countries will help you - you will not take into consideration their work. According to the way of thinking they should make the same lines in every country and follow the same rules. But basing on the population genetic it makes really no sence to make twice the same lines. Most of the Czech lines are doing well - you really do not need more dogs of this blood.
And the "unique" groups
- some of them have only few represents in Czech Republic but for example many in Slovakia so it makes no sence to make third time the same group.
- some "unique" groups are dying out because of the health problems. In such case I think it is not ethical to ask other breeders to save exactly such lines.

And: who will make it?

Your are from the origin country. You should ask them to cooperate... There are always many breeders from abroad who do great job and are willing to cooperate. But... the reality was cruel so far. One example: there was a person from one of the breed clubs from abroad interested in making the lines also in her own country. She asked for materials, for instructions, for information. The answer was: it is only for CZECH CLUB MEMBERS. Hidden and protected like treasure. The lines were top secret and protected.

Of course it is changing now and it is great that Czech Club published the Czech lines online. Really good work even if the dogs arew filtered. But believe me - there was no chance for anybody from abroad to get any instructions "what to do" before. Even if they asked.

Personally I was lucky in Slovakia. I get clear answer: We have our own groups. You should try to make your own in your own countries. (Special thanks to Oskar Dora).
Sure there is one problem - the clubs in Slovakia and Czech Republic are special. You can FORCE your club members to follow the guidelines. We can not. Breeders can use dogs which they want to use. We can not make any lines officialy. We can not even forbid breeders (even if there would be a breed club in Poland) to import and use this "dysplasia" blood. They can do what they want.

BUT what we can do is to make group of breeders folowing the same goals voluntarily. And THIS is already working since some years. It is not so easy visible as it is not a club but there are breeders from several countries trying to build some lines.
But still - geting the needed information about the old lines and old dogs is ploughing fallow land.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Why don´t exist groups in Poland? I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise...

No Hanka. You will not use them... As it was also not allowed for several Czech breeders to use the best dogs we have here in Poland... I have no problem with it - we cleared it with Dana a long time before...

It is simply: we have (had) in Poland some dogs which blood you can find only here BUT all good dogs which we have will be used for breeding here. They will be 'common'...
According to the plan you will only use what we don't want to use by us. Dogs with health problems, with HD-problems, with problematic lines. Because only these dog will be UNIQUE. Because only such dogs will be not used by our breeders and their blood will stay "precious". It is why the good Polish dogs do not have any puppies in CZ, but the dogs which Polish breeders don't want to use because of health/dysplasia/exterier problems have already several offsprings in your country.

Of course I must be fair and to say it is working also other way - lines which you block not to spread among your country because of health problems are, as I wrote before, advertised by some of Polish breeders as their new "discovery" of "unique and precious" Czech blood...

But it is the tricky thing with "unique" lines and unique blood.

Please - don't be angry now but it is so. It is always working like this - if you have GOOD dogs, with interesitng line, giving good and healthy puppies many breeders start to use the stud dogs and because they are also healthy many of the puppies get breeding rights later. And the line start to be common. "Unique" will stay only lines where there are serious problems and the breeders avoid to use these dogs....