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Old 16-04-2007, 15:51   #21
z Peronówki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban
Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong. The mother is not Vicky Passo del Lupo but "Alaska". Does anyone know who collected that info, and who told them about the heritage of Sangria?
Correcting that page would also be nice.
The data has been colected from the official CMKU dog show catalogue. The info was sent by the owner and breeder of Sangria in the entry form (no other way is possible)....
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Old 16-04-2007, 16:33   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban
Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong. The mother is not Vicky Passo del Lupo but "Alaska". Does anyone know who collected that info, and who told them about the heritage of Sangria?
Correcting that page would also be nice.
The data has been colected from the official CMKU dog show catalogue. The info was sent by the owner and breeder of Sangria in the entry form (no other way is possible)....
That's "fun"
Thank you, Margo
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Old 16-04-2007, 17:49   #23
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For me the whole thing looks very suspicious for the following reasons:

1) Experienced breeder usually doesn't use a female with unknown origin like Alaska because the result of such breeding can be unpredictable

2) At least two puppies from Alaska are owned by Czech people. There's maybe a coincidence ... the puppies in Czech republic are many times cheaper than in Italy - buying these puppies would mean they had very high interest in them... because of what? Mother of unknown origin? Would they really buy a cat in the bag for such high price?

3) These two people were strong supporters of Mutaras - one even owns or owned one of them. After both clubs (Czech and Slovakian) banned registration of Mutaras the people who wanted to register them didn't give up. It was known that they are looking for other ways of including them in the breeding. It is also known that the people had good connections to Italian breeders and that many people predicted that Italy will be the next place where they will try again with Mutaras - there is no real control about what specific breeders can do and everyone can register dogs in LIR (entry registry).

4) there are explanations that Alaska is a female from an old Czech line. If this is true and the dog comes from Czech Republic then it should have tatoo number and if the dog doesn't appear in the wolfdog database then IT IS NOT CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG. In the database we have information about all registered old czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

I'm really interested what is true here and what's not. I don't want to make any judgements without knowing more from both sides but if it would confirm that Alaska is connected with Mutaras or is other wolfmix and not Czechoslovakian Wolfdog then I'm affraid that the mentioned breeder would be in big troubles. People responsible for using Mutaras or other mixes in breed should be prepared that if something like this gets to the public that they it means end of life for them as breeders of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. I'm not even saying about official ways but just the fact that such opinion of a "breeder breeding mixes and not purebred CzWs" would spread around Europe...
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Old 16-04-2007, 17:52   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel
PS : Andre, we speaking about same person, only Jedlicka we write with the hooks over "c" and its not shows in other chracter code pages, than czech.
Ok, thanks again..

Well, if what you have been stating in this thread is true, it's all rather disgusting.

I'll try to propose something to my italian fellows, let's hope it'll result in changes in the way things are conducted.
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Old 16-04-2007, 17:57   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Przemek
4) there are explanations that Alaska is a female from an old Czech line. If this is true and the dog comes from Czech Republic then it should have tatoo number and if the dog doesn't appear in the wolfdog database then IT IS NOT CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG. In the database we have information about all registered old czechoslovakian wolfdogs.
Well, according to the ENCI website, Alaska doesn't have a tattoo but a microchip. Also, the breeder Alaska is registered under is a female italian name (I've never heard her name, and googling for it doesn't result in anything related to wolfdog - I know this means nothing, but still it's worth mentioning it, IMHO).

I can't help for any of the other points..
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Old 16-04-2007, 20:26   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban
Well, according to the ENCI website, Alaska doesn't have a tattoo but a microchip.
Only for information - puppies of CsW born in CZ after 31.12.2006 have never more tattoo, but microchip only. But here we speaking about older dogs, which must have tattoo.
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Old 17-04-2007, 00:08   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margo
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizban
Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong.
The data has been colected from the official CMKU dog show catalogue. The info was sent by the owner and breeder of Sangria in the entry form (no other way is possible)....
May be the breeder (Fabio Caselli- Passo del Lupo) or the owner (Fausto Mattioli, president of Italian Club) aren't so sure about his mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavel
You put to dogs same bonitation code system, but your bonitation according not to bonitation in countries of origin.
OH WELL ! It'sabout 3 years that we said this: you can't give same results (P1,P3, etc.) to different tests or exams !

But it' is like speaking to a wall of bricks
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Old 17-04-2007, 19:19   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
And sorry to say Pavel, if we didn´t would have the italian breeders, the breed wouldn´t be so far at this point
good or bad this statement ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
And please do me a favour and get to know italian lines of csw. Then you will see that there are a lot more "dogs" than in the countries of origin!
I agree with Pavel : quantity IS NOT quality !
Of course you can find some good csw among hundreds of untypical csw!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
And you can laugh at but my experience is that these dogs are much more easier to handle and of course some of them look much more than a wolf!
Ok, I laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
Sure, from my point of view it is a pity to raise up dogs only in kennels, not to socialize them on people .
It's a pity to see csw biting their owners and after that used for mating a wolf-hybrid , it's a pity to see every year more csw killed after an aggression and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
And it is not illegal or criminal to breed in wolves or wolfhybrids,
No, it's not illegal, but when I buy a puppy I want to know that this puppy is a cross between an artic wolf and a GS/malamute!
When I buy a puppy I want to know who are his parents!

As you can see, in this story everything is hidden...so if is it legal why keep all hidden ?

(sorry for my english...)
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Old 18-04-2007, 02:15   #29
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Last Navarre: good statement. Lots of dogs mean that there will be at least a few good ones. And with these good ones you can go on with the breed. See offspring of Miky and sons Induk and maybe Grey Wolf - here missing shows, bonitation and of course exams -. But nice looking dogs and comparing to other male dogs easy to handle as I have been told from friends of me who know them. Sure, I know that there have been lots of offspring. But this is always the same, only a very few are really good.

Why it is all hidden? Because as you maybe know that most of the people did not understand why bringing artic cross with GSD in CSW-breed. So maybe people who were fans of these "project" had wait, till a carpatian wolf had been brought in in csw breed. In germany there was a litter of csw and wolvin last year.It is very difficult to say what is right and what is wrong.

CSW biting their owners and than used for breeding? So maybe there were the wrong person for the right dog? I don´t know which dog and which owner you mean. Maybe the owner is not able to handle the dog? CSW killed because of aggression. That is interesting, please, can you tell us more about. I mean it really that this point interests me. So, if it is because of genetic false such dogs have nothing to do in breeding. As I see it, maybe it is a problem in italian that people are allowed to breed with only one show or I saw litters without shows. So interesting people should get the information which dogs you mean. I know it is difficult because these owners don´t like it when people are telling the truth.

What kind of dog is this? Looks like a long wolf mouth... But the head is not bright enough. Even a specialists would not see that this is maybe a cross! So what? There is a standard and if you will find something that the dog is not in the standard ok. But as you wrote there are lots of dogs in italy - and other countries - which are not in the standard. Here in germany but in italy too there are lots of csw which have much too long ears! But the head of a dog and of course a wolfdog it really important. It should be a heavy one with long mouth and much coat around the part connecting the head with the body, such as a wolf.

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Old 18-04-2007, 03:19   #30
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Mutara's is a complete nonsense, I really not understand what they see in these hybrids for want so much put then in the CzW breed, they have NOTHING with the breed, if they want improve the breed, open lines, low the displasy problem, why not cross the Czw with a carpathian wolf with the allow of the FCI and the CzW club, something very well prepared, with much studie and using a very well selected Czw?!
I agree that the breed need a new fresh blood, but a mutt-canadian wolf hybrid won't improve the breed in nothing but bring some problems.

I have to thanks Pavel for bring this information to us, that's is a very serious problem for one breed as the CzW, I have think that the Mutara's problem have already finish, but now I and some people know that not, I think who reading this and want really improve the breed witht the selection will take much more care when select the dogs for breed for not allow the enter of one Wolf-mutt with Czw pedigree in the breeding.
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Old 18-04-2007, 07:18   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
Lots of dogs mean that there will be at least a few good ones. And with these good ones you can go on with the breed.
Real theoretically is it the best way to have a best and health dogs. But the reality is other.In breed are using not only best from this big amount, but the worst as well. So that in this case amount dont helps the race. Am agree with you - select the best dogs and the rest castrate. Try to offer this to the bigger italian breeders ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
Why it is all hidden? Because as you maybe know that most of the people did not understand why bringing artic cross with GSD in CSW-breed. So maybe people who were fans of these "project" had wait, till a carpatian wolf had been brought in in csw breed. In germany there was a litter of csw and wolvin last year.It is very difficult to say what is right and what is wrong.
Christian, you speaking about problem about what you donz know anything. Of course, that "blood refreshing" can be good by our race as well. But if you have some basic knowledges about breeding theory, that you know, that its a very seriously step. Its need really deep and sophisticated project, where will be very precious declare target, the possible way, how to go, selection conditions and as well what doing with the animals, when project shows as wrong. "Mutara" have nothing from it. It was really wild and unprepare action, not only without project but not with breeders club agreement. And just from begin was using false dates and information (e.g. father of Mutaras was declare by registration like "CsW without pedigree" - its GSD, what his owner many times publish in CZ dog magazines).
Czech and slovakian Clubs are not principially against crossing CsW and carpatian wolf. But everything must be legaly, good prepare and setting clear rules.
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Old 18-04-2007, 07:42   #32
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Hello all,

Just a quick note, someone in the italian forum admitted the Mutara experiment landed in Italy. He tried to get one subject himself, but he wasn't able to. He's still interested in getting one of those "dogs".

So, we can probably get rid of our "may be" "could be" and whatever

Keep your eyes open, and let's hope we can get rid of people who acted legally (according to the italian laws, not according to the sk or cz clubs) but in a questionable way.

IMHO there's nothing wrong, theoricaly speaking, in getting new wolf blood in the breed. However, using a wolf coming from different subspecies is plain dumb. Registering offsprings as "CsW" (as it happened in italy) is plain DUMB, and I agree with Pavel's point of view when he say it's "criminal". Not because they break rules by doing so (hey, you can do it in italy, it sucks, but it's they way it works), but because it's plain dumb and it's a crime against INTELLIGENCE first of all.

So again, keep your eyes wide open, watch out when you buy puppies, and "trust no one".
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Old 18-04-2007, 08:19   #33
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Oh, and as a side note if you are worried about CsW from your, or someone else's country, well blame those governments, blame people who are in fear of something they don't know at all. Blame them and keep in mind their decisions when it comes to the "vote" time. It'd sure suck if CsW was banned somewhere, but blame them.

Don't blame people who try to inform people listening to their own voice of conscience and to the information they have.
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Old 18-04-2007, 11:01   #34
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Interesting statement that some you don´t mind if a carpatian wolf would be brought into the breed to bring in fresh blood.

But it seems to me that some of you don´t know that it is not easy to mate a dog with a wolvin or a wolf with a female dog. Wolves get into heat only from december to march+- and the males too. And please remember how the first F 1 CSW comes into the world. It was heavy stuff. The really first mating between dog and wolvin doesn´t work, do you remember? They had to take a real strong minded aggressiv gsd who was than able to cover the the wolvin in 1958.

So of course it is project that needs some time some years. And who told you Pavel, that these people had no target? And belive me or not Pavel, I know more about these things than you.

So if there are enough people who think new fresh wolf blood should be brought in, why the czech and slovakian club don´t start to look for a wolf which is good for it?

Fizban, I don´t know you I even don´t know how many dogs you have and if they are csw. But you are making politics although you are not in a csw club and know nothing about it all.

Pavel, all I know about dog breed is from the french herding dog Briard - Berger de Brie -. Because I(!) had to pass lots of exam theoretically and of course the dog too, to be stud dog or breeder. And I did courses where vets and biologists from the best vet university in germany came and explain us necessary things. And all I learn is from friends who have wolves and hybrids and who were dogtrainers too. I learn from watching behaviour of wolves and of course dogs. I saw about 30 litters of puppies and saw lots of these puppies grown up and as a adult. So if someone like fizban wants to make trouble he can do it but not here, warming up old stories without any knowledge.

And why people think who are only breeding 4-5 years or doing only 2-3 litters that they know best what is needed for the breed of csw I cannot understand. There are breeders who breed for morethan 15 years with lots of litters and lots of vey good and sucessful csw, who are not aggressiv or shy, who are working and are family dogs as well. I think that these people have much more experience and that they are the ones who should do these experiments, if they want to do this. And not people who made 8 litters in 4 years. This is quantity not quality. Not in the dogs/puppies I mean but learning about the breed and getting experience.

Christian

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Old 18-04-2007, 13:48   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
CSW biting their owners and than used for breeding? So maybe there were the wrong person for the right dog? I don´t know which dog and which owner you mean. Maybe the owner is not able to handle the dog? CSW killed because of aggression. That is interesting, please, can you tell us more about. I mean it really that this point interests me. So, if it is because of genetic false such dogs have nothing to do in breeding. As I see it, maybe it is a problem in italian that people are allowed to breed with only one show or I saw litters without shows. So interesting people should get the information which dogs you mean. I know it is difficult because these owners don´t like it when people are telling the truth.
The dog he's talking about is the dog used to mate this "alaska" female dog. The male dog comes from the biggest breeder in Italy. So there's no "off-the-cuff" breeder behind it.
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Old 19-04-2007, 10:37   #36
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Fizban, funny thing that someone like you who have an 1 year old csw Moluk - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7638 - and who doesn´t know which is the right name of your dogs father - first you named him Danko Passo del Lupo than refugi del lupo - and even so doesn´t know the breeders name of your dog - you wrote refugi del lupo and here in wolfdog is written Raissa - and where wolfdogs Margo and Przemek don´t know who is the mother of your dog and that your named mother - Cessy Araneino poselstvi - maybe had only on litter in 2005 and not a second one in 2006 - as you mean because of your dog, but I know not everyone tells their litter to Margo - is complaining about bringing in maybe Mutara to italy....

It seems that you don´t have an FCI dog. Do you have a wolf-Mix?

Christian

P.S. Fisban worte in rutting season about his dog.
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Old 19-04-2007, 10:50   #37
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Hi,

I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.


Sangria is a son of Lion Passo del Lupo and Alaska (not Viky).

In all the world, the FCI give the possibility (only for some breed not
fixed yet) to inseret some new blood for became better.

Mutara is a test and the son of Mutara is not on sale.

Jindra are a friend of my and he has some problems (in Czech) to see how
sons of mutara will grow.

Hartl tell to me to help Jindra and I can help him.

A lot of the information present in Wolfdog are not true, only the "good"
people can write and some of them are not "friend of us".

I will continues to breed my dogs.

Regards.


It's legall?
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Old 19-04-2007, 11:00   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinga
Hi,

I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.


Sangria is a son of Lion Passo del Lupo and Alaska (not Viky).

In all the world, the FCI give the possibility (only for some breed not
fixed yet) to inseret some new blood for became better.

Mutara is a test and the son of Mutara is not on sale.

Jindra are a friend of my and he has some problems (in Czech) to see how
sons of mutara will grow.

Hartl tell to me to help Jindra and I can help him.

A lot of the information present in Wolfdog are not true, only the "good"
people can write and some of them are not "friend of us".

I will continues to breed my dogs.

Regards.


It's legall?
Hello,

It is legal according to the Italian law. So no one is saying it is illegal. As for Passo del Lupo puppies, go for it if you feel they are worth (no sarcasm)

Watch out when you publish private emails anyway.. they are supposed to be private unless the person you are talking to granted permission to post it online (anyway, thanks for posting it, quite interesting if true)

As for any breeder and for any puppy, you should just give a look at their parents, the characters, and is it's a repeated mate, how did the previous puppies grow up. If they've had health problems and stuff..

That's it!
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Old 19-04-2007, 11:34   #39
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That is really interesting that Hartl is involved.... Now nobody can say anything against it.

Christian
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Old 19-04-2007, 12:15   #40
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Last Navarre the dog attack, do you mean it was Sangria?

Much better dog Lorenz Farouk brother to your dog? They don´t bring him into the breed anymore because there were I don´t know one or two puppies from him with HD D. since they know this they don´t use him.

The thing which interests me is, if the answer from Fabio that FCI (maybe only in Italy) allows to bring in new blood wolfblood in a breed here in the csw breed. Does anybody know if this is correct?

Last Navarre I have a son from Oliver Passo del Lupo and Upstream Ariminum. And I have to say that he is much more dog, not only much more dog, he is a real dog in comparison to Myla Crying Wolf who I owned. Tala is F 9/10 and Myla was F 6. Ok both were not the middle csw, one was like a wolf and one is like a dog. My dogs live with me in the house with garden, but most of the time in the house. And because I have friends who raised up wolves bottled feed in the house. I can compare their experience with mine.

But if it is official allowed for Fabio to bring in Son of Mutara ok why he has to inform everybody?

Clubpolitics? In germany last year it was founded the second csw club called the FreeCSWClub because in the older club there were made too much politics. And guess what they have not so much but in the same categorie numbers of member. And they do Special Show and Oskar Dora comes at the end of Mai. So professional they do it.


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