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Old 18-04-2007, 21:38   #1
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Default Long Coat - Genetic Problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
See offspring of Miky and sons Induk and maybe Grey Wolf - here missing shows, bonitation and of course exams -. But nice looking dogs and comparing to other male dogs easy to handle as I have been told from friends of me who know them.
You should know what you are saying, and obviously you don't know much about breed situation in Italy : sons of Miky and Induk are dog with many qualities (nice eyes, wolfish head) but with serious genetics faults (too long hair, shyness or lethargic character, long body format), just look at some nice examples :






photo property of www.amicodellupo.it


photo property of www.amicodellupo.it

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
Why it is all hidden?
....
year.It is very difficult to say what is right and what is wrong.
No, It's very easy : If I say the truth I'm right ! You can discuss my opinion, but I'm right.
But it is not this case : one day the mother of litter "S" is Vicky Pdl, other day is an unknown "Alaska" !
And this experiment isn't done by a simple visionary owner, but from the most important "csw power seller" of Italy, member of Council of italian Breed Club.

Fizban(Andreas) is'nt a politic or a dreamer, is a simple owner, and -as many other owners, breeders and breed lovers in Italy - he understood a simple thing, very difficult to refute :
THE MUTARA EXPERIMENT IS CONTINUING IN ITALY !

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
CSW biting their owners and than used for breeding? So maybe there were the wrong person for the right dog?
No, the father of him (Dyk Verny)the father attacked his owner and was returned to the breeder. So is son Lion Passo del Lupo attacked is owner and was returned to the breeder.
The breeder make this dog bonitation : after bonitation ("good") this dog attacked and seriously wounded his conductor!!!

After that, Lion Passo del Lupo was used by breeder for mating with so called "Alaska"
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Old 19-04-2007, 10:15   #2
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Last Navarre thanks for the pics. I guess there are 3 different dogs shown. Of course one is Induk. Sure there are a few with long coat. But you can count it on one hand! Comparing with the numbers of puppies coming out of the breeder. Shy or lethartic? That is what I said, it is very important to socialize puppies from their early days on. Having lot of dogs and litters that will not work.

Last Navarre even so I am not a friend of german breeder Eichhorn from my point of view it was good that he tryed to mate Induk with his Amy Zlata Platz. A friend of mine was with im in italy and he told me his impressions of the italian dogs , because they visited others more. And I now the puppies from Induk and Upstream, they are really good ones. And please explain me why sons and daughters of Miky X Fendy are winning lots of shows? And please tell me why people pay lots of more money for puppies from this combination?

I wrote it already, breeding is not a state thing. So everyone can breed like he wants under condition of standard. So if there is a majority who wants to bring in a wolf or a wolf-mix where is the problem? An Hanka says it right, if the majority wants another way, you have to change club governement.

The biting situation. I can say nothing to it only that maybe it was the wrong owner for the dog. Everyone involved in csw knows that they are heavier than ordinary dog. But the csw in italy are much more further than in germany. They are like dogs. Sorry to say. They have less wolfblood and are further away from wolf. You have to be consequent and strong to lead a csw. Otherwise it can cause problems. In germany there are for my feeling in comparison to other dogbreeds lots of csw who change the owner between 5 month and 2 year.

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Old 19-04-2007, 11:49   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
Of course one is Induk.
Fortunately not. Induk is much better (I like him, i don't like his character).
They are some brother and sons.
There are many of these, I own other photos but are not mine and I can't show them (the owners don't want to).

Ok, there are nice and good dogs from this bloddline, with nice heads and so on, but please, you can't take Miky & Induk as an example of the italian breding...they are average dogs with many faults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
from my point of view it was good that he tryed to mate Induk with his Amy Zlata Platz.
From my point of viewthis was not so good: they have in their own house a much better and correct csw...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
And I now the puppies from Induk and Upstream, they are really good ones.
I friend of mine got one of these puppies. I think they are too young to see if they are good dogs or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
And please explain me why sons and daughters of Miky X Fendy are winning lots of shows? And please tell me why people pay lots of more money for puppies from this combination?
Hype, marketing, choose what you want. In fact there is no reason to pay more for the same thing or worse!
After attending to dog shows some years (and with some success) I really understand I can't see which is good dog or bad dog considering his shows success, especially in Italy, where politics count much more than dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
So if there is a majority who wants to bring in a wolf or a wolf-mix where is the problem? An Hanka says it right, if the majority wants another way, you have to change club governement.
The majority DON'T KNOW anything about this experiment! We are interested to make it public, so the people can know what they are buying.
Again, I'm not against wolf-hybrid, but against keeping all top secret, all hidden.

And for the Club, I' don't know how it is in other country, but here is nearly impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
The biting situation. I can say nothing to it only that maybe it was the wrong owner for the dog.
Maybe or maybe not; but this dog attacked 2 different people in two different situations.
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Old 19-04-2007, 16:13   #4
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Hello Susanna,

although this is off topic it seems reasonable to give my opinion on your assumption why we are not using Farouk anymore.
It should be far too unidimensional for a breeder to think in terms like for example "not like or like".
By the way, where do you have your assumption from?
So let's come back to facts. We have 17 puppies after Farouk in Germany, that's enough for the moment. I don't want a stud-dog bottleneck population. Besides that there are 47 puppies after Last Navarre, 8 after Big Wakan and 4 after Like. That makes all in all 76 puppies after stud dogs with the same parents....
Don't you think that's enough in both of the countries?
I for myself came to the conclusion that this is enough.
Believe me, it's much easier and cheaper to take my own stud dog instead of travelling to Florence or Slovakia.
Coming to the x-ray results of Farouk's offspring, 7 out of 17 dogs are officially evaluated. Although 6 are HD-A and one is unfortunately HD-D, I want at least 3/4 of his offspring x-rayed.
This is only my humble opinion.
Sorry for my off topic statement, but I felt obliged to clarify Susanna's assumption why we don't use Farouk anymore.
Before I forget it, Farouk is a wonderful dog and has produced some beautiful puppies.

Ciao,

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Old 19-04-2007, 16:19   #5
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Cia Susanna,

maybe they don´t like Farouk, I don´t know. I only know that Farouk should be a good working dog, as Ina wrote shortly and they like more the slovakian ones which are not so in behaviour like gsd. Farouk is kind of "nervous" like gsd = means looking for work all the time.

I now Last Navarre only from pics your homepage, but I noticed him already years ago. Farouk I get to know 3 1/2 ago but only for a few hours in the house of Eichhorns. Nice dog. As I know they are using him now more for filming TV and Movies. I think Last Navarre knows this.

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Old 19-04-2007, 16:24   #6
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Although I am not a real friend of Michael, I can confirm it, that he makes very nice puppies. And of course this is a good look of all from my point of view to travel around to look for other nice male dogs although they have a good one - and good one for the "working line" - at home.

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Old 19-04-2007, 23:32   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
By the way, where do you have your assumption from?
Hello Michael, I read this :

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina
Much better dog Lorenz Farouk brother to your dog? They don´t bring him into the breed anymore because there were I don´t know one or two puppies from him with HD D. since they know this they don´t use him.
I thought that Christian knows something more than the data on WD database to be so sure...but clearly not

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
Believe me, it's much easier and cheaper to take my own stud dog instead of travelling to Florence or Slovakia.
Of course! But if I pay for a stud and I pay for the travelling, the stud SHOULD be better than the one that I own!
(By the way there are about 140 sons of Micky/Induk travelling on earth, and much more coming soon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
Before I forget it, Farouk is a wonderful dog and has produced some beautiful puppies.
I totally agree...looking at the photos we always thought as Farouk as the "Handsome Brother" of our Navarino
We hope to see sooner or later Farouk mated with your beautiful Amy...
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Old 20-04-2007, 14:30   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika
Long hair isn´t big problem (only exterier problem) and sometimes coming from GSD. Forget on wolf. Our breed have minimaly 70 % blood of GSD !!! and his problems, too!

But I NEVER will put photos of really sick dogs on WOLFDOG. ORG.
This is tabloid press and will make from nothing BIG problem.

If our breed have some problems, these problems are OF ALL! Our dogs have very similary blood and I think you are very often forget it. Is very easy to show on others.

The motivation can be various.......
Monika is right. Long hair don't make dogs or owners ordinary life more complicate, like HD, shyness, agressivity (especially agressivity) and many other illness does.
Is of course problem, but i believe Monika ment that is not that kind of problem like serious illnesses are. If you have a dog with missing teeth, long hair, low bite faulse,dark eyes etc. You can still live normal life with that dog. you dont need vet or medicines every day. and you dont have to be careful with other dogs/people that your dog can attack..

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Old 20-04-2007, 15:23   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsirius
Monika is right. Long hair don't make dogs or owners ordinary life more complicate, like HD, shyness, agressivity (especially agressivity) and many other illness does.
Is of course problem, but i believe Monika ment that is not that kind of problem like serious illnesses are.
Yes, it can be such problem... Take a look on the "long hair problem"....

Long hair are typical "fault" which CzWs inheritated from German Shepherd Dogs.... Examples shown by Navvare are prove that long haired dogs are present by CzWs and some breeder were able to make selection on such characteristics...

But long hair ARE also a health problem. Why?

Short hair gene is dominate and the dog can carry the gene for long hair. Long hair gene is recessive. In other words: two long haired dogs can only have long haired puppies, while short haired dogs can have short hair or long haired puppies.

What it means? When you mate 2 CzWs there is ALWAYS small probability that some of the puppies will be longhaired. But when you mate 2 long haired CzWs you can be 100% sure the puppies will be also longhaired....
So if we will not take it into consideration and will not try to eliminate this faults we can come into the situation that long hair will become a serious genetic problem... Expecially if it is true that the most common italian lines are "carriers".

Long hair has nothing to do with typical wolfish coat which is long on the neck, back and tail, but short on the rest of the body while by longhaired dogs there is the same long coat on the whole body (see photos).
Long haired dogs do not shed - they have "nice" coat also in summer. And by Wolfdogs you can read in the breed standard:
"Winter and summer coat differ greatly."
It is the reason why one of the Czech judges gave on the club dog show "very good" to one italian dog because of "coat untypical - not fitting to the weather conditions".

But long coat is also a health problem - CzWs should be "resistant to weather conditions". But only the with typical coat. Long haired dogs will become serious problems during hot weather - you can forget to run with them long distances because of the danger they will overheat... CzWs with long coat are handicapped dogs in comparition to typical CzWs...
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Old 20-04-2007, 15:58   #10
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just a short notice on "Long Hair".
it is true and verified that MikyxFendy have produced some long haired dogs and also some Sons of Induk have produced them.
This doesn't prove that neither mikyxfendy or induk are EXAMPLE of BAD italian breeding.
It DOESN'T mean either that these dogs are NOT example of Excellent quality.
I also know sons of "MxF" and "I" that have many admirers all around and have impressed for their beauty and calm/gentle character.

If a couple make 20 puppies and 3 have long hair, it doesn't mean I wouln't buy a puppy from them.
I have seen much worst with HD results.
A son coming from a litter with high percentage of HD has reproduced (i remember cases both in Italy and Czech Rep.) and nobody cried to scandal (well I actually did a couple of times... )
I now do not know the result of their sons but i strongly doubt that if they also have bad HD we would know it today... or it will be published on your DB...
at least you can recognize and visually judge long hair defect.
If all offspring from a dog had this defect then I agree totally it should not be used.

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Old 20-04-2007, 17:10   #11
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Massimo it doesn't correct. I have Ian PDL and your coat is not "Wolf coat". This is a bad characteristic for some Miky/Fendy puppies....
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Old 20-04-2007, 18:48   #12
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Where this long coat comes from? (i don't mean gsd)
does any dogs from CZ or Slovakia had ever long coat?
Why it came out from Italian dogs so? Anybody have idea?

i never heard long coat in saarloosees, which is made from wolf and gsd as well.

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Old 20-04-2007, 18:59   #13
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"CzWs with long coat are handicapped dogs in comparition to typical CzWs..."

Margo; as you are breeder, if you had long coat puppy, do you pay back something to owner, or sell puppy cheaper?
(like long hair gsd is cheaper than normal)

Does these Italian puppies sold cheaper, cause faulse coat?

and is next what we can waite for white csv?
there is white gsd;s and in saarloos is some white ones too.

I think there is some more healthy problems with Csv, (than HD/OD)
but very less talking about it. I heard epilepsy, pancreas defect etc. but nobody talks.

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Old 20-04-2007, 19:29   #14
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hi

Quote:
and is next what we can waite for white csv? Laughing
there is white gsd;s and in saarloos is some white ones too.
realy good

n fact one question what is the % as on long hair with ne typical csw can make typicale hair or long hair ??

all people know as cheaperd german have on his genetic some long hair and what choose , what the judgewill decided ?? for the exposition the most important is the caractere not shy or agressvity.

many question , who can answer in all sincerity ??
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Old 20-04-2007, 19:42   #15
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Some words about long hair.

Margo start be a little bit demagogic, like is typical for Pavel, sorry….

Long hair is exterier problem. No health!!

Long hair isn´t letal factor like for example ( bloomerle factor, some brown collors..)

We can polemize about the efficiency but not about health!

Many GSD with long hair working like police or army dogs, still. And many very good working breeds have long hair. For examle colies – border colies, australien shepherd, scots kolie. Many dogs with long hair have very strong temperament and they are excelent for agility, flyball…etc… CSW can envy him his temperament and his working genes.
In Czech rep. is new breed „ Chodský pes“ who was made and still is breeding from long haired GSD…not only from this, but this isn´t important. But hair of these dogs is long and his temperemant strong and his behaviour really excellent.

I remeber Agar Reolup. His hair is really long, too and dense and when Agar was with as first time on summercamp many a little bit stupid people call him „ collie „ !
He had sometimes parting on the back, because hair was too long….

When we will compare for example Agar Reolup and Amber Wolf z Peronowki – they looking like 2 breeds, for many people. Two different types.
For me no problem – variability inside breed!
I was first person who covered by Agar Reolup…But any puppies have or had his hair! We wanted it, but any. Mothers genes are important, too…..

Really long hair at some italien dogs isn´t big problem for me. Is only per mile of long haired CSWs in population. I not will make the hunt on hags „ !

Is more major problems in our population.


I promis you, this is last "story" from me to this discussion I don´t have time and some disccssions are really lost time.

Sorry,
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Old 20-04-2007, 20:11   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika
Really long hair at some italien dogs isn´t big problem for me. Is only per mile of long haired CSWs in population. I not will make the hunt on hags „ !
How does this opinion comply with the BREED STANDARD? I alawys thought that breeders should aim towards breeding dogs most typical for the breed according to the set and registered standard!!
Was I mistaken?
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Old 20-04-2007, 23:48   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika
I promis you, this is last "story" from me to this discussion I don´t have time and some disccssions are really lost time.
No problem if you feel comfortable that way. It's your choice to discuss or not.

But I would like to add my two cents to the discussion. I agree that the length of coat does have influence on working abilities. We should not compare briards or collies with CzWs which should be able to run for 100km at once. The breeds you mentioned are mostly guarding or herding dogs and none of the mentioned breeds did undergo such extreme endurance tests as CzWs. And even then there is a division of working and show types in for example border collies. Working ones have short coat. Another example are German Shepherds: the longhaired GSD are being disqualified for specific reason - there are tons of articles where you can read why longhaired GSDs are worser workers. I would like to see chodsky pes running for 100km with similar results as typical CzWs.

I'm not talking about CzW being naked breed I want to say that we should keep moderation in everything. Longer coat looks nice, such dogs usually have higher chances to win on shows. But there is a border when the longer coat becomes untypical for this breed. The breed standard says "in body shape, movement, coat texture, colour of coat and mask, similar to the wolf.". When I look at some CzWs will longer coat as Agar Reolup or shorter as Amber I see still a coat similar to wolf but when I see the dogs in the photos then there is no wolf but collies or long-haired GSDs. We should divide the coat into shorter CzW coar, longer CzW coat and long-haired colie like coat. And only the last one is untypical (the same as naked CzWs ). By the way: I saw Agar Reolup a few times and his coat has nothing common with the dogs in the photos.

However at the same time I am ready to agree that the long hair is not the biggest problem in our breed. Much bigger problem are too heavy, unhealthy (very often with HD problems) dogs. But we should not forget about one problem because of another. Breeders should pay attention to all aspects and not breed only looking at long coat.because they can forget about other things.

I know I'm also demagic. After all I know demagogic Pavel and demagogic Margo
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Old 21-04-2007, 00:07   #18
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hi

i'm agree long hear isn't any problem as working , thgis is ok

but the standard

cf:

COAT
MAKE UP OF COAT: Straight, close. Winter and summer coat differ greatly. In winter an immense undercoat together with the topcoat, forms a thick coat all over the body. It is necessary for the hair to cover the belly, the inside of the upper thigh, the scrotum, the inner part of the ears and the area between the toes. Well coated neck.
COLOUR: Yellowish-gray to silver-gray with a characteristic light mask. Light hair also on the underside of the neck and the forechest. Dark gray colour with mask is permissible.

and in default=> Stand -off and untypical coat. but said the standard about that ??? nthing realy all is about all people think !

many dog with long hair working .....that's the truth

what would be decided about that is it autorized or forbidedden??

how translate that with the standard ?? because te start working must be the standard.

what would decided the official person in charge for the authorities about CSV ??

i think the most important think is long hair ok ... but under hair it is important or not ?

for GSD with long hair there is less important under hair => less possibility to resist about time so cold

as good reflexion
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Old 21-04-2007, 09:07   #19
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Hi,

I must admit that I do not dislike the dogs with longer hair. But I think you have to keep in mind that it is 'dangerous' to breed with the 'long-hair' lines, because it is (like Margo said) a recessive gene. Before you know it, the 'long-hair-gene' is everywhere in the population! I think, as a breeder, you have to be very carefull when you choose a combination of dogs to breed with. The chances that you'll breed puppies with long hair, even when this is not your intention, will become higher and higher if we keep using the lines that carry the 'long-hair-gene' as it is used now. I must admit that I like Miky and Induk, and I like the exterior of the Italian lines, but please, be carefull. They are used very much in the breeding program of the Italian breeders and their sons and daughters are used very often for breeding to. Dogs of those Italian lines come to France and other European countries... they are used very much here (when for example a male is imported, he is used by many breeders. Probably because they think like 'fresh blood' or 'blood of good, Italian bloodlines with good results'). So the 'long-hair-gene', which is invisible, starts to spread over the whole population. And then, maybe in 10 years, allmost every litter will caunt one or two (maybe more!) puppies with long hair! I think that many people (even breeders) do not know exactly how this process of bringing a recessive gene into the population works. Margo apparently does know how fast this goes and she understands how dangerous this can be for the breed. We do not have very much different bloodlines (all Csv are practically brothers and sisters), so we have to be very carefull with the blood we have... When we will SEE the problem, it is to late. And then we can't fix it anymore. And then we can not say: we don't use those lines anymore (or only in combination with dogs who are 100% short-hair), because then it will be to late. Please, don't let it come this far. Why not search a solution NOW?
So I agree with Margo that this isn't 'just a small difference in exterior - nothing to worry about'. Once the gene for long hair is spread over the population, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to 'remove' it again...

Greetings,

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Old 21-04-2007, 09:47   #20
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Something about longhair..
I own longhair white shepherd and that dog lives arcticarea.
In wintertime temperature can be -40. That dog living whit huskyes and her coat it weatherproof and easy to clean.
Snow and dirty don´t get stuck in coat. Coat most be harsh.
If you use two long haired puppies can be both long or short haired.
And if you use two shorthaired puppies can be both long or shor hair.
If you have short haired dog that can be longhaired as genotype.
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