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Old 16-12-2008, 21:43   #41
Mikael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Repeating matings is different to use a stud.
Omar z krotkovskeho dvora was used in a different data in pretty different conditions for the breed.
I don't agree with his use in this way, I don't agree with the fact that people had use so much some studs as Rep Z pohranicni Straze and Omar z Krotovskeho dvora, when at the same time some dogs with different bloodlines get lost in the time because hole litter of lonely mate die without get used in the breed.
But things change and now we have more dogs than at past, more females and more breeders, surelly the number of the litters per dog, principally a famous one will increase, if we compare with the past it will seems even stupid and bad for the breed.
In this topic we are mixing somethings as if it is equal, its a wrong think.
One thing is repeat ever the same litter, it surelly decrease the genetic pool of the breed as the clone litter have no value for breeding, another thing is you use a stud with you know have good bloodline and pass good characteristics one time or with different females and don't repeat again these litters, you do it knowing and waiting good genetic, another thing is you blindly use a male because shows or working titles.

I really don't see problems in dogs like Carr Maly Bysterec or Baron Spod Dumbiera and others like that, wich have made some different litter with some different females in different countries, theyr blood is speeled over world, not all dogs from these mates are used in breeding, some pet dogs and maybe one or two dogs of these litters will get used at breeding, these dogs we all know pass some good qualitys for its offsprings, turning better the quality helping with the breed evolution as well.
The females mated with this dog probably won't repeat ever the same litter with him, even because he is from different owner and sometimes not soo much well common, and well... the owners study the line for make this litter and commonly they find another so interessant dog for mate in next litter, so you will be able to see the blood of this female with some different males, if you want you will use the blood of this female with the blood of this well common dog or not.
No wonder if in about 5 years we have some linebreedings on these dogs with the will to increase a little bit the amount of blood of these dogs in the specific litter, that's happen and is common in all breed.

At other side we have the hiper show well-know titled dogs, wich everyones uses it sometimes blindly because the titles that will help then to sell the litter, not only have him as father but make huge inbreedig and line breeding in this dog, another times without any knowledge about its genetic they make litters with the think that: "if this dog is good and titled, he will makes good litters", and, when you have a hyper used dog, neophites will see only good dogs winning at shows or at the magazines, and will think "this dog is good" without have knowledge that of these 2 good dogs, this same stud made about 50 bad ones wich are almost hiding with owners as Pet, and maybe will appear one good soul wich will study the pedigree of this dog, his offsprings and will see if this dog will be good or bad if mate with his female.

And so, we have here the good character of the stud owner, you as owner will let your dog be used in repeated mates? with females with bad bloodline for him? or let him make inbreeding using him with his daughter?
here enter the good sense and the money question, if someones only care for money, he will let his stud be used for who paid, if the owner have alittle bit og good sense, he will think twice before do that.
This concience will avoid the problems that we can see at south america with dobermann breeding, almost all dobermanns have one dog in line or inbreeding, barely you find dogs that's at least far away of this dog, that's happen becahse this dog was good and the owner surelly don't care much or don't had think about the future of the breed, and let this dog be over used by other breeders, the dog is good, pass good genetic and is pretty know and well titled. For you people had idea about the think of th eowner, the dog is death at more than 5 years and still make litters as father... tecnology rules.
Thanks for the book Nebulosa

Well balanced answer as always !

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 16-12-2008, 22:23   #42
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Exclamation Horrible numbers !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by elf View Post
I have a darker view. It's currently not easy to mate two CsV and get a COI less than 20% on the full pedigree (and I guess nearly impossible less than 15%). Nowadays example, last 5 mating announced on this site: 18.53%, 23.72%, 30.89%, 20.78%, 27.10%. These numbers carry meaning.
Thanks for this info, it is horrible numbers, but I´m not suprised

Regards / Mikael
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Old 16-12-2008, 22:48   #43
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Exclamation Back to topic

What kind of inbreeding diseases will show up first,
Are there any common signs to look for ???

What is normaly a healthy % of COI ???

How hard will it be to get the COI back to 15% from 20-30% on a total pedigree ???

Regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 16-12-2008 at 22:51.
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Old 17-12-2008, 14:34   #44
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Quote:
What is normaly a healthy % of COI ???
Depends... because first it's needed to breed away for harmful alleles, only then one can breed for diversity. On the other side it has been proved many times higher inbreeded dogs lived some years less than lower inbreeded dogs (same for genetic diseases incidence).
Nowadays for the CsV, breeders should try to be less than 10% on five generations (as this is the mean value on 5 generations).
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Old 17-12-2008, 17:46   #45
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Originally Posted by elf View Post
Depends... because first it's needed to breed away for harmful alleles, only then one can breed for diversity. On the other side it has been proved many times higher inbreeded dogs lived some years less than lower inbreeded dogs (same for genetic diseases incidence).
Nowadays for the CsV, breeders should try to be less than 10% on five generations (as this is the mean value on 5 generations).
Thanks ones again for your answers elf

To get the COI % back to normal on some lines whit the breeding plan of some breeders here are therefore impossible as I se it, especially when some breeders work in the opposite direction

I also wonder way the owners of this dogs do not wont to give there opinion on the current situation...
Quote:

Numbers of offsprings 10 topplist on CsV born after year 2000.

47 offsprings 2002.12.31 Baron spod Ïumbiera
48 offsprings 2001.12.03 Batt Malý Bysterec
54 offsprings 2004.01.31 Merlin Crying Wolf
51 offsprings 2000.10.06 Rendy ---Passo del Lupo---
55 offsprings 2001.12.04 Edgar Passo del Lupo
60 offsprings 2004.11.11 Vaicko Passo del Lupo
73 offsprings 2003.04.18 Timber Wolf Arimminum
82 offsprings 2002.10.15 Duncan ---Colle del Lupo---
135 offsprings 2001.04.12 Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere---
151 offsprings 2002.10.03 Miky Passo del Lupo
Or are they so over the high % of COI on are breed that they can not speak...

Regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 17-12-2008 at 18:32.
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Old 17-12-2008, 18:05   #46
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Exclamation Wrong topic again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
As far as I understood didn't Nebulosa mean the wolves, she was talking about dogs. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs in that case.
How many wolves and what kind of wolves live in your wolf park anyway, and whereabout is the park located?

Michael
Can you please put this post in the Crosses in the UK thread instead

Regards / Mikael
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Old 17-12-2008, 19:41   #47
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A little stat, dogs with COI(5 generations) more than 30% (sorted by birthday: breeding plans many years ago are not the same):

2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Uros ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Llobas-Ghisa ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Hiroshi II ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Hiroshi ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Yado ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Tundra ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Sca ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Priscilla ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Pepe ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thor Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Therpsis Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thalia Crying Wolf
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Pavel ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Naise ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Lupo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Lupa ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Kyra ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Duncan ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Sultan ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Ayak ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Attila ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Akail ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2004.09.28 -- 30.5175781250% -- Nicea ---Ciccone---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Zeus ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Tularosa ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Luna ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Geronimo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Daphne ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Blu ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Aria ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Anubis ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.04.17 -- 30.9570312500% -- Vaillant ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2004.04.17 -- 30.9570312500% -- Bilou ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hutch ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Huri ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hura ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Horus ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hendrix ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Heda ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Heca ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hasso ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hanouk ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hamlet ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Haita ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hagen ---Colle del Lupo---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- Manja ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Lupo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Kochis ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Jahanna ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hug ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Geronimo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Farak ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Angelina ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Rex z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Repka z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Rep z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Rama z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Raggio ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Nebbia ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Kocis ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Gandalf ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Ermanno ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Ares ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Andromeda ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2001.01.19 -- 32.7636718750% -- Mikala ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2001.01.19 -- 32.7636718750% -- Manon ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Puma z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Primus z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Prim z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Priam z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Pedro z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Pax z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Panda z Krotkovského dvora
2000.12.17 -- 31.6406250000% -- Pama z Krotkovského dvora
2000.01.25 -- 30.8105468750% -- Fibby Kollárov dvor
2000.01.25 -- 30.8105468750% -- Fenndy Kollárov dvor
2000.01.25 -- 30.8105468750% -- Farry Kollárov dvor
2000.01.25 -- 30.8105468750% -- Fanny Kollárov dvor
2000.01.25 -- 30.8105468750% -- Fallko Kollárov dvor
2000.01.16 -- 30.8105468750% -- Aragon Vlčia krv
1999.02.05 -- 33.0566406250% -- Eryx Kollárov dvor
1999.02.05 -- 33.0566406250% -- Elax Kollárov dvor
1999.02.05 -- 33.0566406250% -- Ejda Kollárov dvor
1999.02.05 -- 33.0566406250% -- Edy Kollárov dvor
1999.01.16 -- 32.1777343750% -- Bora od Miščicha
1999.01.16 -- 32.1777343750% -- Bona od Miščicha
1999.01.16 -- 32.1777343750% -- Bat od Miščicha
1999.01.10 -- 30.8105468750% -- Cézar Kollárov dvor
1999.01.10 -- 30.8105468750% -- Cliff Kollárov dvor
1999.01.10 -- 30.8105468750% -- Citka Kollárov dvor
1999.01.10 -- 30.8105468750% -- Cindy Kollárov dvor
1999.01.10 -- 30.8105468750% -- Cid Kollárov dvor
1999.01.10 -- 30.8105468750% -- Car Kollárov dvor
1998.10.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Moňa z Krotkovského dvora CS
1998.10.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Maxa z Krotkovského dvora CS
1998.10.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Max z Krotkovského dvora
1998.02.05 -- 32.4707031250% -- Flip z Rofa
1998.02.05 -- 32.4707031250% -- Faxon z Rofa
1998.02.05 -- 32.4707031250% -- Faraon z Rofa
1998.01.18 -- 39.2089843750% -- Lord z Krotkovského dvora CS
1997.11.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Kórach z Krotkovského dvora
1997.11.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Káj z Krotkovského dvora
1997.11.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Koro z Krotkovského dvora
1997.11.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Kondor z Krotkovského dvora
1997.11.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Kazan z Krotkovského dvora
1997.11.12 -- 31.6406250000% -- Kain z Krotkovského dvora
1997.04.01 -- 33.9355468750% -- Eryk z Ciriakovho dvora
1997.04.01 -- 33.9355468750% -- Eri z Ciriakovho dvora
1997.04.01 -- 33.9355468750% -- Emi z Ciriakovho dvora
1997.04.01 -- 33.9355468750% -- Elba z Ciriakovho dvora
1997.02.04 -- 32.4707031250% -- Brit Šikulov dvor
1996.01.31 -- 34.0820312500% -- Chira z Krotkovského dvora
1996.01.31 -- 34.0820312500% -- Chir z Krotkovského dvora
1995.12.15 -- 33.9355468750% -- Cézar z Ciriakovho dvora
1995.12.15 -- 33.9355468750% -- Cárka z Ciriakovho dvora
1995.12.15 -- 33.9355468750% -- Cuky z Ciriakovho dvora
1995.12.15 -- 33.9355468750% -- Ciro z Ciriakovho dvora
1995.12.15 -- 33.9355468750% -- Cida z Ciriakovho dvora
1995.12.15 -- 33.9355468750% -- Car z Ciriakovho dvora
1995.10.28 -- 31.6406250000% -- Hyke z Krotkovského dvora CS
1995.10.28 -- 31.6406250000% -- Hura z Krotkovského dvora CS
1995.10.28 -- 31.6406250000% -- Hesi z Krotkovského dvora CS
1995.10.28 -- 31.6406250000% -- Hera z Krotkovského dvora CS
1995.10.28 -- 31.6406250000% -- Hedy z Krotkovského dvora CS
1995.10.28 -- 31.6406250000% -- Halka z Krotkovského dvora CS
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Gurta z Krotkovského dvora
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Grečko z Krotkovského dvora
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Goro z Krotkovského dvora
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Gogo z Krotkovského dvora
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Gaston z Krotkovského dvora
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Gar z Krotkovského dvora
1995.08.10 -- 32.1777343750% -- Galka z Krotkovského dvora
1994.12.10 -- 41.6992187500% -- Europa z Krotkovského dvora
1994.12.10 -- 41.6992187500% -- Esta z Krotkovského dvora
1994.12.10 -- 41.6992187500% -- Emír z Krotkovského dvora
1994.12.10 -- 41.6992187500% -- Elbow z Krotkovského dvora
1994.11.25 -- 31.6406250000% -- Cézar z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.25 -- 31.6406250000% -- Cirus z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.25 -- 31.6406250000% -- Cidar z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.25 -- 31.6406250000% -- Cida z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.19 -- 31.6406250000% -- Bux z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.19 -- 31.6406250000% -- Bugo z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.19 -- 31.6406250000% -- Bryta z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.19 -- 31.6406250000% -- Bryt z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.19 -- 31.6406250000% -- Bruna z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.19 -- 31.6406250000% -- Bega z Krotkovského dvora CS
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Asta z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Ares z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Amor z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Amanda z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Aktis z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Aima z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Ado z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.11.11 -- 33.9355468750% -- Abba z Ciriakovho dvora
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Hike Južná čast'
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Hik Južná čast'
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Hero Južná čast'
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Hektor Južná čast'
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Haso Južná čast'
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Hari Južná čast'
1994.10.13 -- 34.0820312500% -- Haide Južná čast'
1994.02.04 -- 32.1777343750% -- Zora z Krotkovského dvora
1994.02.04 -- 32.1777343750% -- Zola z Krotkovského dvora
1994.02.04 -- 32.1777343750% -- Zina z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Yzop z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Yrda z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Yra z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Ykon z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Yka z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Ydar z Krotkovského dvora
1994.01.17 -- 34.2285156250% -- Yda z Krotkovského dvora
1993.12.10 -- 32.3242187500% -- Bryta z Gilanovho dvora
1993.12.10 -- 32.3242187500% -- Bryt z Gilanovho dvora
1993.12.10 -- 32.3242187500% -- Bruna z Gilanovho dvora
1993.12.10 -- 32.3242187500% -- Begi z Gilanovho dvora
1993.12.10 -- 32.3242187500% -- Bajkal z Gilanovho dvora
1993.12.10 -- 32.3242187500% -- Bajka z Gilanovho dvora
1993.11.29 -- 46.8750000000% -- Xavan z Rosíkova
1993.11.26 -- 38.8183593750% -- Vlk z Krotkovského dvora
1993.06.09 -- 32.4218750000% -- Tola z Krotkovského dvora
1993.06.09 -- 32.4218750000% -- Tobi z Krotkovského dvora
1993.01.21 -- 32.1777343750% -- Samson z Krotkovského dvora
1993.01.21 -- 32.1777343750% -- Sam z Krotkovského dvora
1992.10.18 -- 31.1523437500% -- Astor Fončorda
1992.10.18 -- 31.1523437500% -- Argo Fončorda
1992.10.18 -- 31.1523437500% -- Alfa Fončorda
1992.10.18 -- 31.1523437500% -- Alan Fončorda
1992.10.18 -- 31.1523437500% -- Ajax Fončorda
1991.12.04 -- 30.3222656250% -- Antea Bonus
1991.12.04 -- 30.3222656250% -- Amir Bonus
1991.12.04 -- 30.3222656250% -- Algar Bonus
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Avar z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Arza z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Art z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Area z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Ama z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Alma z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Alba z Kykule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.22 -- 32.3242187500% -- Achát z Kyvule pod Lepeníkom
1991.11.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Nyx z Krotkovského dvora
1991.11.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Nyr z Krotkovského dvora
1991.11.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Nyk z Krotkovského dvora
1991.11.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Nora z Krotkovského dvora
1991.11.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Nor z Krotkovského dvora
1991.11.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Nero z Krotkovského dvora
1991.10.03 -- 30.5175781250% -- Asy od Zejdy CS
1991.10.03 -- 30.5175781250% -- Ala od Zejdy CS
1991.10.03 -- 30.5175781250% -- Akita od Zejdy CS
1991.10.03 -- 30.5175781250% -- Aja od Zejdy CS
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chán z Krotkovského dvora
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chlipka z Krotkovského dvora
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chlapík z Krotkovského dvora
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chira z Krotkovského dvora
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chir z Krotkovského dvora
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chim z Krotkovského dvora
1990.12.04 -- 32.3242187500% -- Chama z Krotkovského dvora
1990.11.28 -- 32.3242187500% -- Aran z Gilanovho dvora
1990.11.28 -- 32.3242187500% -- Andy z Gilanovho dvora
1990.11.28 -- 32.3242187500% -- Alma z Gilanovho dvora
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Grácia Balmar
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Grof Balmar
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Goro Balmar
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Gina Balmar
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Gera Balmar
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Gapa Balmar
1990.11.05 -- 35.4980468750% -- Gaja Balmar
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Brian Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Bresta Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Brehmy Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Borka Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Bonita Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Bern Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Berenica Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Barča Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Baron Trenčan
1990.10.17 -- 31.5429687500% -- Barilla Trenčan
1988.12.29 -- 35.5468750000% -- Dono od Pavlišina CS
1988.12.29 -- 35.5468750000% -- Dino od Pavlišina CS
1988.03.16 -- 36.4257812500% -- Osa z Rosíkova CS
1988.03.16 -- 36.4257812500% -- Orlík z Rosíkova CS
1988.03.16 -- 36.4257812500% -- Olmar z Rosíkova CS
1988.03.16 -- 36.4257812500% -- Old z Rosíkova CS
1988.01.08 -- 35.5468750000% -- Cézar od Pavlišina CS
1988.01.08 -- 35.5468750000% -- Cira od Pavlišina CS
1988.01.08 -- 35.5468750000% -- Cida od Pavlišina CS
1988.01.08 -- 35.5468750000% -- Ciba od Pavlišina CS
1988.01.08 -- 35.5468750000% -- Ceno od Pavlišina CS
1987.01.12 -- 31.8359375000% -- Káj z Rosíkova CS
1987.01.12 -- 31.8359375000% -- Kora z Rosíkova CS
1987.01.12 -- 31.8359375000% -- Kazan z Rosíkova CS
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Bron Vopa
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Brix Vopa
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Brita Vopa
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Brit Vopa
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Brat Vopa
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Besy Vopa
1986.03.29 -- 36.4257812500% -- Bero Vopa
1983.12.01 -- 32.4218750000% -- Arnika z Graby CS
1983.12.01 -- 32.4218750000% -- Argus z Graby CS
1983.12.01 -- 32.4218750000% -- Ares z Graby CS
1983.12.01 -- 32.4218750000% -- Apis z Graby CS
1983.12.01 -- 32.4218750000% -- Almea z Graby CS
1983.12.01 -- 32.4218750000% -- Alba z Graby CS
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Old 17-12-2008, 19:55   #48
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Exclamation Over 30 % on 5 generations !!!

This comes as a shock even to me, 30-50% on 5 generation !!!

This is really the death list of are breed, if we do not react now it will be to late

Sad regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 17-12-2008 at 19:58.
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Old 17-12-2008, 19:57   #49
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Dogs with COI(5 generations) more than 20% since 2002 (sorted by birthday):

2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yvain Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yolka Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yasmine Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yanus Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yam Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yago Crying Wolf
2007.09.27 -- 21.0449218750% -- Zjev Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2007.04.16 -- 28.2714843750% -- Jody ---Terre dell'Est---
2007.04.16 -- 28.2714843750% -- Cindy ---Terre dell'Est---
2007.04.16 -- 28.2714843750% -- Alex ---Terre dell'Est---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Uros ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Llobas-Ghisa ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Hiroshi II ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.10.27 -- 41.4062500000% -- Hiroshi ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2006.04.10 -- 21.0449218750% -- Quin Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2006.04.10 -- 21.0449218750% -- Quiero Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2006.04.10 -- 21.0449218750% -- Querida Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2006.04.10 -- 21.0449218750% -- Quemada Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2006.04.10 -- 21.0449218750% -- Quasar Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Yado ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Tundra ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Sca ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Priscilla ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.03.27 -- 32.2753906250% -- Pepe ---(priv. Orpelli)---
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thor Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Therpsis Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thalia Crying Wolf
2006.02.05 -- 23.2910156250% -- Havanna Hanouk de Louba Tar
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Rudy ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Roli ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Roky ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Red ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Razy ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Randy ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Drama ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.12.08 -- 20.1171875000% -- Dita ---Casa della Rosa---
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Ré Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rubin Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Robin Hood Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rambo Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rainbow Crying Wolf
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Pavel ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Naise ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Lupo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Lupa ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Kyra ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.05.27 -- 30.0781250000% -- Duncan ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Sultan ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Ayak ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Attila ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.04.16 -- 30.9570312500% -- Akail ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2005.02.17 -- 28.2226562500% -- Kris Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2005.02.17 -- 28.2226562500% -- Kiss Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2005.02.17 -- 28.2226562500% -- Kent Cosmo Daniel D'Elite
2005.02.01 -- 26.7578125000% -- Fersen ---(priv. Rognoni)---
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Psisan Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phyrhus Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Philemon Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phenelope Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phemba Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Pharis Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phanom Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phaedra Crying Wolf
2004.10.26 -- 21.7773437500% -- Ossa Crying Wolf
2004.10.26 -- 21.7773437500% -- Orpheus Crying Wolf
2004.10.22 -- 21.4843750000% -- Hugo Fončorda
2004.10.22 -- 21.4843750000% -- Hok Fončorda
2004.09.28 -- 30.5175781250% -- Nicea ---Ciccone---
2004.09.24 -- 20.2636718750% -- V'Yanna Vopa von den Wächter der Krone
2004.09.24 -- 20.2636718750% -- V'Wotan von den Wächter der Krone
2004.09.24 -- 20.2636718750% -- V'Cheyenne von den Wächter der Krone
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Zeus ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Tularosa ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Luna ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Geronimo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Daphne ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Blu ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Aria ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.09.20 -- 30.0781250000% -- Anubis ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2004.04.17 -- 30.9570312500% -- Vaillant ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2004.04.17 -- 30.9570312500% -- Bilou ---des Gardiens de la Cour---
2004.02.19 -- 20.5566406250% -- Xenos Xerxes de Louba Tar
2004.02.19 -- 20.5566406250% -- Xenator Arni de Louba Tar
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Uxia ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Ussaro ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Ursula ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Uri ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Unno ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Unicum ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Ulisse ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Ublaze ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.16 -- 28.4179687500% -- Uber ---della Vittoria Alata---
2003.12.06 -- 28.1250000000% -- Dia Šikulov dvor
2003.12.06 -- 28.1250000000% -- Dag Šikulov dvor
2003.12.01 -- 20.2636718750% -- Ulfie von den Wächter der Krone
2003.12.01 -- 20.2636718750% -- Ujhiro von den Wächter der Krone
2003.12.01 -- 20.2636718750% -- Uinseann von den Wächter der Krone
2003.12.01 -- 20.2636718750% -- U? von den Wächter der Krone
2003.12.01 -- 20.2636718750% -- U'zeeva von den Wächter der Krone
2003.12.01 -- 20.2636718750% -- U'Wolfgang Amadeus von den Wächter der Krone
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hutch ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Huri ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hura ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Horus ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hendrix ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Heda ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Heca ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hasso ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hanouk ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hamlet ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Haita ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.07.10 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hagen ---Colle del Lupo---
2003.02.09 -- 21.4843750000% -- Gádar Fončorda
2003.02.09 -- 21.4843750000% -- Gaston Fončorda
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Koira Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kazan Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kavik Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kavak Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Karuk Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Karlik Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kankin Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kajab Crying Wolf
2002.12.31 -- 21.5332031250% -- Brest spod Ďumbiera
2002.12.31 -- 21.5332031250% -- Beryl spod Ďumbiera
2002.12.31 -- 21.5332031250% -- Baron spod Ďumbiera
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- Manja ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.12.05 -- 32.7636718750% -- ? ---Wollenberg Wolfdogs---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Lupo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Kochis ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Jahanna ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Hug ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Geronimo ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Farak ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.11.05 -- 30.0781250000% -- Angelina ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.03.10 -- 21.1914062500% -- Tilouna Windswept Hillock's
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Frida Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fortuna Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Forrest Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Flash Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Faust Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fargo Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fanny Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Falco Crying Wolf
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Rex z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Repka z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Rep z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.11 -- 49.2187500000% -- Rama z Krotkovského dvora
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Enzo Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elvis Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elton Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elmar Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 21.4355468750% -- Grace Kollárov dvor
2002.01.07 -- 21.4355468750% -- Gora Kollárov dvor
2002.01.07 -- 21.4355468750% -- Gina Kollárov dvor
2002.01.07 -- 21.4355468750% -- Gero Kollárov dvor
2002.01.07 -- 21.4355468750% -- Gaya Kollárov dvor
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Raggio ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Nebbia ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Kocis ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Gandalf ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Ermanno ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Ares ---(priv. Bresciani)---
2002.01.04 -- 30.0781250000% -- Andromeda ---(priv. Bresciani)---
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Old 17-12-2008, 20:17   #50
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Exclamation Shocking news !!!

CsV world record in inbreeding ???

Quote:
Dogs with COI(5 generations) more than 20% since 2002 (sorted by birthday):

2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yvain Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yolka Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yasmine Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yanus Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yam Crying Wolf
2007.10.12 -- 20.5078125000% -- Yago Crying Wolf

2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thor Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Therpsis Crying Wolf
2006.02.24 -- 35.4492187500% -- Thalia Crying Wolf

2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Ré Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rubin Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Robin Hood Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rambo Crying Wolf
2005.07.22 -- 22.1191406250% -- Rainbow Crying Wolf

2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Psisan Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phyrhus Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Philemon Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phenelope Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phemba Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Pharis Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phanom Crying Wolf
2004.12.08 -- 22.2656250000% -- Phaedra Crying Wolf
2004.10.26 -- 21.7773437500% -- Ossa Crying Wolf
2004.10.26 -- 21.7773437500% -- Orpheus Crying Wolf

2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Koira Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kazan Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kavik Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kavak Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Karuk Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Karlik Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kankin Crying Wolf
2003.01.06 -- 21.7773437500% -- Kajab Crying Wolf

2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Frida Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fortuna Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Forrest Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Flash Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Faust Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fargo Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Fanny Crying Wolf
2002.01.13 -- 22.9980468750% -- Falco Crying Wolf

2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Enzo Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elvis Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elton Crying Wolf
2002.01.07 -- 25.4882812500% -- Elmar Crying Wolf
Sad and still shocked, regards / Mikael
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Old 17-12-2008, 22:59   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
CsV world record in inbreeding ???



Sad and still shocked, regards / Mikael
you are shocked,,, so what are the breed clubs in Europe going to do about it,???????/ hey maybe you will need some of my CWS X WOLF sooner than you think pacino,,,,,
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Old 17-12-2008, 23:11   #52
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Originally Posted by solowolf View Post
you are shocked,,, so what are the breed clubs in Europe going to do about it,???????/ hey maybe you will need some of my CWS X WOLF sooner than you think pacino,,,,,
I se your point Pacino but no thanks...

Regards / Mikael
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Old 18-12-2008, 01:08   #53
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Exclamation More statistic / worning signs !!!

Numbers of offsprings 10 topplist on CsV born after year 2000.
Whit COI on 5 generations…

47 offsprings ---COI 21,53%---2002.12.31 Baron spod Ïumbiera
48 offsprings ---COI 16,36%---2001.12.03 Batt Malý Bysterec
54 offsprings ---COI 18,16%---2004.01.31 Merlin Crying Wolf
51 offsprings ---COI 9,32%---2000.10.06 Rendy ---Passo del Lupo---
55 offsprings ---COI 12,25%---2001.12.04 Edgar Passo del Lupo
60 offsprings ---COI 7,76%---2004.11.11 Vaicko Passo del Lupo
73 offsprings ---COI 5,22%---2003.04.18 Timber Wolf Arimminum
82 offsprings ---COI 5,22%---2002.10.15 Duncan ---Colle del Lupo---
135 offsprings ---COI 8,35%---2001.04.12 Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere---
151 offsprings ---COI 10,20%---2002.10.03 Miky Passo del Lupo

Regards / Mikael
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Old 18-12-2008, 02:04   #54
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but about bitch offspring You not wright? who not be bitch who have moore 50 pupps. And thi be same evil.
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Old 18-12-2008, 14:01   #55
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It is, why in Czech work breed comission. It is, why we try to keep 7 base bloodlines and much males in every class. We know sotuation in other states. in much country is easy to take two "wolfsih type of wolfdogs " and make pups. But is not easy to keep level of Wright down. We need not new wolves in breed, we need to help to lines what are not much in the World. It is work for clubs, not to produce some pups in wolf type, but very related.....
I know, not in all casses we can make "not related pairs", but we try it.
For example: last my two litters was Wright 1,51 and 3,9.My two next litters will have 4,19 and 4.83. Is it possible, but you must choose good male (good for blood), not only champions with wolf face.
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Old 18-12-2008, 15:01   #56
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hmmm, but Hanka You latest litter make only wirh CH and winner,a and make linebreeding IV-IV. Maybe COI be ok but people who cann chceck inbreed variant see others.

p.s. I not atack You, only thake this like example. I think for others people better when we speak about us dogs, others not see atack for hes.
Regards
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Old 18-12-2008, 15:26   #57
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I don´t care about his titles, but it is blood what is not in Czech.
It was important for me. Not more.It is his first litter in Czech. He lives far and nobody travel there for mateing. So we will have something "new" here for next breeding. It is good for Wright, or NO?
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Old 18-12-2008, 15:30   #58
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For me in first place is gens, later Wright.
about long way ... hmmm I think from LT I have to longest way to rep.
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Old 18-12-2008, 15:39   #59
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But I travel too. I write about other breeders, which not travel. So if I CAN travel for mateing, why don´t take new blood to my country?
I know you don´t like Edit, but I used male with (for Czech) interest blood.
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Old 18-12-2008, 15:44   #60
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aha ok.
But about Edith we not speak in this thema, and ... if You have falsh info about me and Edith friendship, please not wright this.
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