"Ideal" Work to Test CsV?

I've been thinking a lot about the future of the CsV, particularly in the US since the breed is still very new here. Not being one to jump the gun, since I've discovered the CsV I've been doing as much research as possible (mainly in these forums!) into the history of the breed and its correct, ideal temperament and functionality in an effort to discover what my own, personal goals would be with the dog, and possible breeding, I would have in the future. I know I probably (still) have a long way to go before I'm in a position to start establishing the breed in the US, but in the mean time I want to hash out my opinions and ethics for breeding the "perfect" CsV.

I personally feel that in addition to confirmation, it is VITAL to the soundness of a working breed for the dogs to be tested in that work in order to maintain the proper working character and structure. This is where I feel I've hit a bit of a wall and am asking all of you for your personal input and goals!

So, as far as the history of the breed is concerned, the CsV was a border patrol dog that was bred for tracking and guarding work without the aid of a human handler. For this, one would need a dog that would not only function well as a tracker, guarder, and have high endurance both physically and for the elements, but who would also be able to make up its own mind as to a course of action without the use of a handler giving instructions. Here is where I'm really stumped!

It's a given that endurance work and tracking work would be great to test the CsV in regards to its original function. However, when it comes to protection/guard sports, I honestly can't see the temperament needed to compete being what you would want in a CsV. You want your dog to be able to make up its own mind, not just wait for your commands. Honestly, I feel that's what GSDs are for! I would see the "typical" CsV temperament being that of a dog who is smart and easily learns commands, but who will "choose" when and how to act on them, more akin to a husky's temperament than a GSD's.

Coming to this conclusion, how would one encourage the natural guarding instincts of the CsV safely? I mean, I would think I would want a dog with natural guarding instincts, but if I "encourage" those behaviors, and the dog "decides" for himself when to act on those instincts, doesn't that create the possibility of a dangerous dog? And if I were to choose a dog that is more apt to following commands rather than thinking for himself, isn't that moving away from an ideal CsV temperament?

As you can see, I'm stuck in a total paradox! This is why I want to ask all of your opinions! How do you personally test your dogs? If you were to pick the "ideal" titles for a CsV to earn (in your own, personal opinion) what would they be? If you were to create a test geared specifically towards the CsV (similar to how Schutzhund was created for GSDs) what would the test contain?

I'm not looking for people to argue about whether one form of test is above another, but rather I'd like to take an inventory on everyone's personal stances on the subject, since all of you are so very familiar with CsVs! Thank you!!

[saschia]

Good question! I can only address the one about whether a dog that is left to decide for himself might not turn dangerous - in my opinion, the ideal training for working CSV would be to teach it commands and to teach it about different circumstances and ways of dealing with them. Then, the dog will be left to decide not entirely what to do, but which of the learned things to use in a given circumstance. So it depends on what kind of responses you teach the dog, and whether you cover all the possible situations to show the dog which response should be preffered.

An example - friend's male Cane Corso was quite friendly towards people, but then tended to jump on them. So she taught him, that he is supposed to be friendly to people she greets in some way, because they can respond properly and help her get rid of the jumping while still being friendly and enthusiastic, but other people he was supposed to basically ignore. The dog responded not to the command, but to the situation.

[Pavel]

Only little correction :

Originally Posted by Vicky

So, as far as the history of the breed is concerned, the CsV was a border patrol dog that was bred for tracking and guarding work without the aid of a human handler.

Its not true. You read somewhere maybe about using CsW as "SUP" (samostatně útočící pes - independently attacking dog), but it was only small part of using and its have nothig to do with tracing. Its a clearly work in corridor (like in concetrations camps in WWII, some prisons or strategic military objects). And here (on slovak-austrian border), was not using single dogs, but always a pack.
Mostly using were normally work with handler on border by tracing and stoping people, who want go over border illegaly. By CsW is very important contact and work together with handler.

Originally Posted by saschia

Good question! I can only address the one about whether a dog that is left to decide for himself might not turn dangerous - in my opinion, the ideal training for working CSV would be to teach it commands and to teach it about different circumstances and ways of dealing with them. Then, the dog will be left to decide not entirely what to do, but which of the learned things to use in a given circumstance. So it depends on what kind of responses you teach the dog, and whether you cover all the possible situations to show the dog which response should be preffered.

An example - friend's male Cane Corso was quite friendly towards people, but then tended to jump on them. So she taught him, that he is supposed to be friendly to people she greets in some way, because they can respond properly and help her get rid of the jumping while still being friendly and enthusiastic, but other people he was supposed to basically ignore. The dog responded not to the command, but to the situation.

I totally agree about the training, and that's a very good point I hadn't thought of. I guess one should still always be a bit wary in certain situations, but it may not be as bad as I'm thinking in my head, with a proper owner/trainer. I'm curious, though, what one would do to test the dog's behavior, though, since dog protection sports require a fair amount of discipline that one wouldn't expect out of a CsV when competing against breeds like GSDs. See below...

Originally Posted by Pavel

Only little correction :



Its not true. You read somewhere maybe about using CsW as "SUP" (samostatně útočící pes - independently attacking dog), but it was only small part of using and its have nothig to do with tracing. Its a clearly work in corridor (like in concetrations camps in WWII, some prisons or strategic military objects). And here (on slovak-austrian border), was not using single dogs, but always a pack.
Mostly using were normally work with handler on border by tracing and stoping people, who want go over border illegaly. By CsW is very important contact and work together with handler.

Ok, so CsVs WERE meant to work with handlers (I love learning more about the history, here, it can be hard to find good sources on-line!) but from what I understand, aren't CsVs still supposed to have more of an independent temperament? Even if it's possible for CsVs to compete in dog sports, wouldn't they be at a disadvantage? Also, if you based your breeding program around the dogs that excelled at it, wouldn't you indirectly be breeding for the wrong temperament? What exactly is it that makes a CsV different from a GSD temperament wise, and how would one go about testing it accurately? I guess that's a better way of putting my original question.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Vicky

... what I understand, aren't CsVs still supposed to have more of an independent temperament?

But independent temperament and independent work is little bit something else. CsW can independently solve the real situation, not only waiting for exactly command and leading from handler. But CsW have a strong pack instinct, so that not like to workung alone, but always in team. And the typical team by cynology is dog with handler.

Originally Posted by Vicky

Even if it's possible for CsVs to compete in dog sports, wouldn't they be at a disadvantage?

We speaking about work with dog, not about sport, like is today understand. Forget e.g. IPO. IPO is not sport and have nothing to do with work. IPO is a cirkus dressage, where is most important milimeter accuracy and no space for invention. But by realy sport or work is invetion welcome and so that independency as well.
Yes, for IPO is CsW with own inteligency and independency very disqualified.

Originally Posted by Vicky

Also, if you based your breeding program around the dogs that excelled at it, wouldn't you indirectly be breeding for the wrong temperament?

Dont exist any FCi breed, which have in standard, that dogs are breeding for sport. All working breeds may be breeding and selecting for work using. Am personally proud, that our dogs are not suitable for IPO, because it say, that CsW have more naturally behavior and are not the robots.

Originally Posted by Vicky

What exactly is it that makes a CsV different from a GSD temperament wise, and how would one go about testing it accurately?

I dont know, if I good understand your question. But I try answer . Compare GSD is CsW more independent, more inteligent and its a disadvantage for standard methods of training. The old czech and german proverb says "The best soldier dont thinking and march". GSD was many hundred years breeding and selecting so, to be a absolutely obedient and easiest as possible trainable. Its a best soldier (its not a negative, for training and sport is it the best). In CsW are still strong wolf genes, so that training is not so easy and by work is always best, when both (CsW and handler) very close cooperate. But cooperation is very important by really working dogs as well, by GSD too. See the police or military dogs by realy work. This is reason, why IPO have nothing to do with working suitability of dog. By IPO (which is today worldwide the most populary sport) is dog a sport requisity only.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vicky

What exactly is it that makes a CsV different from a GSD temperament wise, and how would one go about testing it accurately? I guess that's a better way of putting my original question.

GSD is supposed to obey his master blindly, with CSV you need to 'negotiate' everything. If you manage to convince your dog that doing something is fun and makes you and him/her happy - he'll do it just for the joy of doing! The dog may even train itself how to be useful, provided it has relevant opportunities and the owner is able to find the right "languge" to communicate what he wants/needs. I think they're incredible in their adapatability as much as stubbornness, willfulness and persistance... all is a matter of determination and perserverance on the part of the owner/trainer

I'm not sure about testing. My dog took some internal obedience tests at her dog school but all really care about is how she behaves in real life situations...

[Pavel]

I forget answer the basic question of this Forum - I think, that best testing is police or military exam of universality (in Czech exist special "sport" -TART). We know just now, that for defence training is generally CsW not so good (only some selected individuals). But if you go to make a obedience and then to 1-2 km long practical trace (means you dont know, where exactly trace begin, only have quadrant e.g. 10x10 meters and the profil of tace), then you testing the work suitability, endurance and possibility to cooperation with handler.

Originally Posted by Pavel

I forget answer the basic question of this Forum - I think, that best testing is police or military exam of universality (in Czech exist special "sport" -TART). We know just now, that for defence training is generally CsW not so good (only some selected individuals). But if you go to make a obedience and then to 1-2 km long practical trace (means you dont know, where exactly trace begin, only have quadrant e.g. 10x10 meters and the profil of tace), then you testing the work suitability, endurance and possibility to cooperation with handler.

See, this is exactly what I was after. We were more on the same page than I think you realized! I totally agree that "sport" is in no way the same as "work" which is why I had such a hard time deciding what the best way was to know you're breeding the best possible dog. Being from the US, and not being directly involved in any dog sports, I'm really only familiar with Schutzhund so I was wondering what everyone feels is the best way (for them) to "prove" that their dogs are the best. I tend to feel that a working line and sport titles are more beneficial to proving a dog than dog shows alone, so I've been trying to figure out what I would want to do if I were going to get a CsV. If I had a husky, it would be sledding/pulling, if I had a sighthound, it would be lure coursing, if I had a GSD it would be Schutzhund, etc. I know there is separate testing here for police work, I might have to look into that if you feel it's a better test of the CsV's character!

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hello Vicky,

CSW are clearly above avarage level in all disciplines that need a dog that understands what the work is about. They normally also like to do all kinds of nosework. They are very good in all kind of rescue work as long as you have a trainer that is able to leave old tracks and can adjust his training to the individual dog. They get easily bored when they can´t see any sense in the things you are doing but they can be of extremly high endurance in work they like. To work with you in a team is something they love very much and will do till exhaustion if you are a good owner and trainer.
They will do things like obedience and IPO if you ask them to but you will find it difficult to keep them motivated to do the same exercise over and over again, because they learn so very quickly and get bored very fast. And if we are honest there is not much sense for a dog in the obedience or IPO routine.

Ina

[tupacs2legs]

hi
i would of thought maybe 'working trials' ?

as it has nosework,agility and control excercises.