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Old 05-01-2010, 17:13   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester View Post
Again only polemic and no facts at all - i could expect it from such "moderator"

But i can understand you , "Nebulosa" :

Tell FACTS , if you want to make critics - and the same for you "wolfin".

It seems very strongly to me , that you both only feel envy for your own dogs are not World Champions , or from litter of such Champion.

Bye- bye
If you will quote someone quote something that this person had write, not what you wanted they to said.
I NEVER wrote what you quote in my name, so , please in next post put the correct name of who write it or I will change for your own name.

Harmonia Eden Severu is world champion, I really dont care for dogshows as I know very well how it works, maybe this year if I have patience enough I will go again in few for expent my time talking with friends.

You talkabout FACTS, seems you're completly unable to even look and understand the pedigree of your own dog, what a shame;

Let me quote what I said and you wanted facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
Oh yes, I forget, everything coming from your dog is perfect, your dog and Carlos dogs are perfect also, we live in flower world.. why do we continue breeding, if we have Carlos and his litter with perfect dogs?
Where is the lie? what I told here is fakt, Askia comes from C father and both parents of Emba's mother are B, she is A as Askia is A, its called selection, and its made in hips also.
I hope you know also that have both parents A doesn't garantee that you will get A pups, including it was the case of Oskar and of some other dogs.
Aragorn Potomok vlkov - HD: C, he is the father of Askia, and he is in the pedigree of your dog.
Lorenz Farouk Arimminum - HD B - He is father of Bluebell wich is mother of Emba
Ciara von wasterwalderberg - HD B, She is the mother of Bluebell, which is mother of Emba

But let me show you something that can be a shock for someone who only accept the existance of A dogs, the full brother of Bluebell, Baschan, is D, as some of her brothers have C results.

So, I think its time to wake up and at least try to understand what is selection, and that in dog breed does not exist perfect dog, sorry to say, but if you even tough that the line of your dog was the "most healty and clean of the breed" you were mistaken, its a line which need a lot of selection, as 99% of whole breed, and its a very important info if you even think about breed with your "perfect dog", open the eyes and see the truth can hurt, but its needed for the breed selection.

When I know the problems of my dogs, I know how to select them, and so, how to improve then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniela
I very well understand. I write for Nebulosa and wolfin.
Why? Because I said perfect dog and perfect litter does not exist? You really dont agree with that?
If you tough Amore Mio is a perfect dog, sorry, I only agree that he is a nice and tipical dog as every wolfdog should be, but that also need to be used with care for you be able to pass away the nice work you've done, or you will simply lost it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaiva
Breeders should breed for health, great character and YES, beauty.
I agree, but who told you that dogshows select really beauty looking at the standard?
What I most see are dogshows selecting by names, politicage and so on, well its not different with the breed and I could proof it.
For some judge a CzW looking like GSD are beauty, so they wins, is that right now? Maybe is also right ugly dogs winning because they have a well known handler?
Unhapply, only a small ammount of Judges get out of the statistic of "judging without have idea about the dog or the breed".
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Old 05-01-2010, 17:17   #22
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Originally Posted by wolfin View Post
Rona, thanks
Jasmine, Daniela, and others, ALL dogs is nice, and the best for his owner. And IDEAL dog not exist, all have faults.
and in breeding moore imporant is not Ch titles but others things, or would You think otherwise?
No, but you're talking about titles and beauty. Amore Mio is an active, healthy dog, friendly to people and it is most important. His exterior is only a bonus.
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Old 05-01-2010, 17:24   #23
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No, but you're talking about titles and beauty. Amore Mio is an active, healthy dog, friendly to people and it is most important. His exterior is only a bonus.
Yes, he are good, typical wolfdog, but can be better like and others alls wolfdog. EXELENT-IDEAL dog not exist breeder wish have this one, but this is like utopia and its very good, we can work, work and work
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Old 05-01-2010, 20:55   #24
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This is what I have REALLY posted:

But i can understand you , "Nebulosa" :

Yes, it´s very difficult to find something negative in the pedigree of the first litter of the actuell World Champion and were all 4 grandparents have an "P1" in bonitation -code for "excellent"....beside other advantages like hip-results ( i already told ) , colour of eyes, quality of hair and coat , small ears and correct short tail, and, and , and....

You left away the main part !

(This main part was written by ME , not by YOU, you are right !
It was a writing/ printing mistake only.Sorry to this.)

But this you have been writing:

Originally posted by "Nebulosa":
But let me show you something that can be a shock for someone who only accept the existance of A dogs, the full brother of Bluebell, Baschan, is D, as some of her brothers have C results.

So, I think its time to wake up and at least try to understand what is selection, and that in dog breed does not exist perfect dog, sorry to say, but if you even tough that the line of your dog was the "most healty and clean of the breed" you were mistaken, its a line which need a lot of selection, as 99% of whole breed, and its a very important info if you even think about breed with your "perfect dog", open the eyes and see the truth can hurt, but its needed for the breed selection.

Do you think i don´t know already all this ??And about the other three ancestors of Carlos´litter you were talking about before?

Of course i know!

And i say it again: About "Perfect dog" I have never spoken - only you .

I´m betting at last 100 against 1 to you - that my "Zeus" will have an "A" for hip-result in future - you can take me by my public word here, you "Great Guru!"

And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics - may be you should read what i have posted here in the German wolfdog about 5 years before?

But yes , i´m sorry - you can not read German language.

Have a nice evening all !

Last edited by Silvester; 05-01-2010 at 21:18. Reason: Printing mistake
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:07   #25
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And as answer to "Rona" in her posting No 15.:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona
Are you aware that your friend Carlos, selected Harmonia, the 'ugly' female WW 2006 with too long ears, too long tail, uncourages and irritable to be the mother of the male he bought from Daiva?
Yes, of course i am aware ! May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...

The opposite is correct : He made the best choice he could get - for the reasons i already have told before.

Good night to everyone.

Last edited by Silvester; 05-01-2010 at 21:11. Reason: printing mistake
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:11   #26
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Originally Posted by Silvester View Post
Yes, of course i am aware ! May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take his own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...

The opposite is correct : He made the best choice he could get - for the reasons i already have told before.

Good night to everyone.
Yes, I him say better used other male for new blood in Spain.
And used Itu for others female or daughter Emba when he have this same REOLUP like Emba.
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:42   #27
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Oh, so it was you who posted it really, in this case I corrected the quote name, because I would not believe in such nonsense.

Today is pretty easy you receive P1 with some judges, even if your dog have really short legs, open lips, long ears and so on, he will receive P1 as we can see in some results even by this database, I really dont care for bonitation results, but I need to agree that if it were done properlly, would be very interessing way of evaluation, really usefull.

You said your dog is correct, I already see genetic for shorth legs in the linebreeding that was done, but for some people the most important is short ears, clear eyes and nice head, maye its exmplaine why we can meet such horrible bodies and terrible movement in dogshows, I hope your dog will be correct, and not more one shorth legged wolfdog, as the majority of the exemplars which not reach 55.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester
And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics - may be you should read what i have posted here in the German wolfdog about 5 years before?
As I hope you also know that if the dog have perfect hips, independant of his treatment or feed he will have A or B hips, not more than it.
You have some B and C brothers, dont try to convince me that this D was "acquired".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester
But yes , i´m sorry - you can not read German language.
When its really needed google helps a lot, but it isn't as I have all information in my own lenguage, principally about hips and elbows displasy, but when I search for more uncommon genetic ill and I dont find properly information in portuguese, I can search in French, Spanish, Italian and English with perfection and its already solve the problem, I can add also a little bit of Polish thanks to Polish people and their patience with me , but I hope one day I will learn German also as I find his sound and write very nice.
But thanks for worrie about my lack of knowledge in German language.

I really hope your dog will be healty, but even healty if you will use in the breeding, you will need to take care when select a male.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester
And i say it again: About "Perfect dog" I have never spoken - only you .
So I should remind you what who wrote here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester
The mating of this both parents of this litter are at the moment on of the best or just the best combination you can find in the whole breed, not only by hip- results but also by very low incest - quotient ...not to talk from other advantages more.
The best litter but not only by hips... when you wrote it I was sure you didn't knew about the brother of Bluebell.
P1... P1.. short ears, clear eyes and all of blabering I already quote.

As I was sure you didn't knew what does men " select a dog breed" but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester
and P 3 NOT a P1 in bonitation- code , with two grandparents with HD- result "C" (!) can without any doubt not be compared with Amore Mio!

You see, I'm sure German people are very responsible with HD results and also with HD information, you really should get better informed.
I confirmed what I tough before.
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Last edited by Nebulosa; 05-01-2010 at 22:02.
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:48   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvester View Post
May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...
Why don't you take my advice and think before you write???
On 03-01-2010, 15:31 I wrote to Carlos (post 36 in the original topic):
Quote:
Carlos, your dogs are great, the pups are lovely and I'm sure with your approach (eg willingness to travel to matchings) and a bit more experience you'll become an excellent breeder!
So you were wrong again Travelling to matchings, especially with the first litter(s) only shows devotion on the part of the breeder and his care about the breed development.

Daiva is not my favourite breeder, but I'm not blind and see that Harmonia is a great dog. It seems a person who disagrees with you may only have ugly dogs!
Don't you see such approach is childish and immature and through your ignorance and blind fury you are only discrediting Carlos' kennel and destroying his dog's reputation as a future rep?
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:33   #29
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Originally Posted by Silvester
The mating of this both parents of this litter are at the moment on of the best or just the best combination you can find in the whole breed, not only by hip- results but also by very low incest - quotient ...not to talk from other advantages more.

Yes, THIS (!) i have posted here, well done, very correct !! ( And it´s simply the truth.)

BUT I DID NEVER TELL SOMETHING ABOUIT "PERFECTNESS" OR WAS USING THE WORD "PERFECT !!!"

DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND ? "THE BEST" has completely NOT the same meaning as "PERFECT" ! AND i said also "at the moment" !

Read again above, as long as you are able to understand .

Dear "Nebulosa" ,may be you should train your English understanding and knowledge also a little ?

Last edited by Silvester; 06-01-2010 at 09:34. Reason: Pc mistake
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:47   #30
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Originally Posted by Silvester
May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

Dear "Rona" the same is for you :

Read correctly BEFORE you are telling such rubbish here !


I was only asking WHY YOU THINK CARLOS DID NOT TAKE HIS OWN DOG ITUBORIS for breeding !

That making of long travelling for mating shows the engagement of the breeder is of course right and you have posted correctly - the same i said also.I also have seen what you wrote in your posting No.36

BUT THIS WAS NOT THE QUESTION !!

Rona, please read and understand my questions right until you write such furtheron nonsense here.

originally posted by Rona:
It seems a person who disagrees with you may only have ugly dogs!

Where i have told something like this ? These are only YOUR words !

I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio.

I have NOT said Harmonia is "ugly" - only YOUR word !!

Now you can see ??
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:56   #31
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
I agree, but who told you that dogshows select really beauty looking at the standard?
What I most see are dogshows selecting by names, politicage and so on, well its not different with the breed and I could proof it.
For some judge a CzW looking like GSD are beauty, so they wins, is that right now? Maybe is also right ugly dogs winning because they have a well known handler?
Unhapply, only a small ammount of Judges get out of the statistic of "judging without have idea about the dog or the breed".
My own experience, other breeds breeder's experience and common sence tells me, that show results also mean something. Yes, corruption happens everythere, but a REALLY ugly or agressive dog most probably will never be a champion of many countries. I really do not know a really nice dog, who would be attending shows and not getting good evaluations, because of the corrupted judges.
I was also asking the president of Lithuanian Cynological Society about the character test that were an obligation for all the dogs some time ago. I wanted to know, why they are not used now. She simply explained that if a dog can pass a todays show with many people and dogs and noise and so on, he would pass that former character test too. So maybe successful attendence in dog shows also shows the dog is at least stable enought not to kill anyone in a new situation? It is not a rule of course, just an assumption. And a little oftopic

By the way, Silvester, you are not the most polite and nice person, aren't you?
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:07   #32
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I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio.
Now you can see ??
Ok, I am ofcourse can be accused of being not objective, because my little girl is a daughter of Harmonia, but let me say. Yes, maybe she is not the most correct dog of all, but she has two amazing things that make people open their mouths - it is the charisma, the pride, the thing that is called "knowing her value". And the other thing is the way she moves and it is really amazing, believe me
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:11   #33
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Quote:
I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio
I agree she can't. Haronia is a female and Amore Mio is a male.

But seriously:
I didn't write that Harmonia is better than Amore Mio! I cannot compare these two dogs because I don't know Amore Mio.
Are you implying that you know both of them WELL and you're a breed judge? There is more to assessment of the dog than WD photos and database....

Quote:
May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??
OMG, another forum member who cannot read between the lines
The answer is easy:
I suppose Carlos travelled for matching because he's an ambitious breeder and found a rep that
genetically suited his female better than his own dog, and not, as you implied, because his own dog, a son of Harmonia was not good enough for matching. He may suit better a different Spanish famale or maybe Carlos intends to use him later, just as many breeders do.
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:26   #34
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Originally Posted by Silvester View Post
I´m betting at last 100 against 1 to you - that my "Zeus" will have an "A" for hip-result in future
hi,

i wish for you and for "ZEUS", but if you know the risks of the genetics so much you donot can be on that….
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:35   #35
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As regards knowing the actual value a reproducer, it is necessary to wait before being able to express, on photograph it is true that I find Amore splendid, but nothing allows yet; to express on its real value standard, Harmonia has defects, like which dog (the perfect dog do not exist, besides mine of course ) nevertheless we can see his value and to see that this bitch put at the world pups very interesting… The titles are a thing very gratifiante for breeder and the owner but of nothing an index for the value reproducer…. ( is just more salesman )
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:01   #36
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And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics
HD, always, in any case, start from genetic heriatage of the dog (100%)
Development and severity of disease are governed by the same genetic haritage (10-30%), and by environmental influence (70-90%).

Lupus Ibericus litter is excelent for HD...
Similar litters with exclent result:
Arimminum "O", COR 26,56 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
Arimmiunm "N" COR 21,72 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
dei Navarri "A" COR 17,39 have 5 dog's HD A total 6 dog's
(i know the 5 dog's without result, are not dog's with bad result not published, are simply dog's without x-rays)

..this can not give 100% security, but on selection this litter can boast one of the most best range estimate on CZW..

..the brother Baschan can say all, or nothing, remember Bety and Colt Zeper..is most important to study the offspring, relationship, genetic similarity.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:53   #37
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Yes, I him say better used other male for new blood in Spain.
And used Itu for others female or daughter Emba when he have this same REOLUP like Emba.
Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:59   #38
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Originally Posted by CDaniela View Post
Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.
yes he can used and Itu, but when have male in home better used others, and make new blood in Spain. Or not? For you this not good idea? for my yes. Itu is young and he have his time for all. like and Amore, or not?
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:25   #39
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Originally Posted by CDaniela View Post
Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.
Sorry Daniela, but I think you are very unfair towards Daiva. I know she was helping Carlos to choose the male for Emba and instead of promoting her own dogs, her and from her kennel she was suggesting him to import new blood to his country. Itu lives already in Spain, he has good owner and it is sure the dog will not "dissapear" - he can be used anytime. So I think it is to her credit that she was not thinking about her interests but helped Carlos to make also something good for the Spanish CzW population.

If she would be "resent" she could really easy influence Calros opinion by telling him invented stories about problems or hidden genetic faults coming in the line of Amore. She could exactly do the same as many breeder on this forum do every day...

No - she is not recent. But I would say you can be (at last a little bit) grateful to her that Carlos choosed Amore... As you wrote before - when he was choosed he was an unknown dog... So think twice - WHY Carlos from Spain decided to go so many kilometers to use an UNKNOWN dog. Not because he is a fortune-teller who know Amore will become famous but because SOMEONE told him "there is a nice dog living in CZ"...
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:31   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woland77 View Post
HD, always, in any case, start from genetic heriatage of the dog (100%)
Development and severity of disease are governed by the same genetic haritage (10-30%), and by environmental influence (70-90%).

Lupus Ibericus litter is excelent for HD...
Similar litters with exclent result:
Arimminum "O", COR 26,56 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
Arimmiunm "N" COR 21,72 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
dei Navarri "A" COR 17,39 have 5 dog's HD A total 6 dog's
(i know the 5 dog's without result, are not dog's with bad result not published, are simply dog's without x-rays)

..this can not give 100% security, but on selection this litter can boast one of the most best range estimate on CZW..
Hartl was telling about it already a long time before.... And it is very good visible when you follow the lines in the database - in some lines there are only about 50% with dogs wich get HD-A results but there are also lines with 80% or even more dogs with HD-A. It is HUGE difference. But short:

HD-free parents and "HD-free lines" do not GARANTY that there will be no puppies with HD. BUT there ARE lines which "bring HD" and lines which are (almost) "HD-free" (with a very small % of HD-dogs).
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