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Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars...

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Old 13-05-2010, 09:26   #21
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.
As far as I did understand their main job was to track down intruders in the border corridor without their handler and not mainly to attack on command. Very different to Schutzhund.

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Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
For Lunas mom: you wrote:
Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.

It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,( ) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (,quick aport with pleasure, v) There is really different......
I would really like to hear in which real protection situation an intense eye on the handler or a quick aport with pleasure is of any use. I don´t come from this side of sports and can´t make any judgement apart from just looking at the training, but I think I would rather prefer a dog with a quick eye on the dangerous person that will protect me without command when necessary because it understands the difference between fake and reality.
If I want a dog that finds and aports lost things this is a different thing and training and doesn´t require quick aport but mainly concentrated search.

Cause I made the same experiences like Rona
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I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties.
And for me this is much more important for a real working dog but of course a big problem with a sport dog.
I doubt, that the military was selecting for a sports dog.

Ina
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Old 13-05-2010, 12:35   #22
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I think I can see my own comparison in Bongo. We are training with a Schutzhund group (mostly just for fun - it's free, and I enjoy the positive reinforcement techniques my instructor emphasizes - Bongo thinks it's a great time to play and socialize!). In training, he follows commands, not even a hair of shyness. When the helpers come in with the loud whip, the other young dogs look, back away - and of course some act like normal GSD/Malinois and want to lunge. Bongo looks, then looks to my expression. We he sees I do nothing, he goes to the helper (who has met before), and looks for play - or to cuddle! He will bite the burlap, and hang on, because he knows I want him to, or maybe because he wants to play - but you can clearly see, he sees NO threat. He is very quick with "Aus!"

However, on another day, I was alone with Bongo on the beach - no other people there, or so I thought. I was on my cell phone, and bent over looking for something in my bag while walking. A lone, unfamiliar man (who i didn't see) approached us quickly from behind a dune. Bongo let out the most fierce bark and growl - it startled even me coming from my sweet boy! The man stopped, Bongo never moved his gaze, tail straight up, no sign of backing away. I greeted the man, and when Bongo knew it was okay and I knew the situation and took control, he let the man pet him, rub him, and even laid on his back after about 3 minutes for the man - no tension, no problem. They are so quick to recognize what is real!
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Old 13-05-2010, 13:45   #23
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Thanks for the great posts, Ina, Rona & Marcy.. I enjoyed reading them a lot.

I think as long as we are on the subject of SchH sports, it should be kept in mind that SchH was always meant to be a test of potential ability, a means of selection, and should only be used to measure potential. Oddly (and sadly) SchH titles today have largely become the end goal and the finish line for many.

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Old 13-05-2010, 17:20   #24
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Hanka, if I can find a place to stay as a guest, I am sure I can find the money for a plane ticket - I would LOVE to watch the flashy, sharp vlcaks doing incredible sportwork and learn more about the breed and teaching them (note that I said "teaching" rather than "training")...
Rona, to me "work" can mean both "sport" or "real-life" - "work" to me, means any venue in which a vlcak needs to use it's skills, talent and training. So "work" can mean Schutzhund sport, man-trailing, water rescue, agility... all of those are "jobs" for the vlcak and handler, so it is "work."
I am sure that every vlcak has it's own preferences.
My own dogs have shown me that - my GSD and my Malinois are not particularly interested in playing the "game" of Schutzhund, though both have proven they are excellent in real-life protection situations as well as trailing (without having trained for that!).
So if my Luna doesn't find Schutzhund to her liking as she matures, I will find the venue she prefers and work in that. Schutzhund is a fun sport but it isn't the ultimate breed-worthiness tool in my opinion.
As an aside, one of the GSD puppies I produced in my first (and only, so far) litter, CHOSE the sport of Schutzhund as her preferred interest, and her handlers got so into the sport they have now added a Malinois to their home and are training to be serious competitors on a National (and perhaps World) level with them. Prior to getting the puppy, they didn't even know what Schutzhund was!
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Old 14-05-2010, 08:15   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunas Mom View Post
Rona, to me "work" can mean both "sport" or "real-life" - "work" to me, means any venue in which a vlcak needs to use it's skills, talent and training. So "work" can mean Schutzhund sport, man-trailing, water rescue, agility... all of those are "jobs" for the vlcak and handler, so it is "work."
!
Let me expain the difference, as I see it, on a funny but real-life example:
1. you take your dog to a dog school to teach her recall - all GSDs repeat the command as many times as the owner wishes. Vlcak comes nicely a few times (rewarded!) but sooner or later gets bored, slows down, starts watching other dogs and people, etc. - this is training

2. you take your dog out to a park to socialize with other dogs. When called, other dogs come to their owners more or less at once; a vlcak comes OK (rewarded!), but it will take her a minute to finish her own businesses first, e.g. to say goodbye to her dog friends - this is sport

3. the same situation in the park, but somebody notices city guards' are parking the van. All the owners call their dogs to put muzzles on to avoid being fined. Vlcak comes first, runs like a lightning and sits in front of the owner - this is work.
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Old 14-05-2010, 09:03   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
1. you take your dog to a dog school to teach her recall - all GSDs repeat the command as many times as the owner wishes. Vlcak comes nicely a few times (rewarded!) but sooner or later gets bored, slows down, starts watching other dogs and people, etc.

2. you take your dog out to a park to socialize with other dogs. When called, other dogs come to their owners more or less at once; a vlcak comes OK (rewarded!), but it will take her a minute to finish her own businesses first, e.g. to say goodbye to her dog friends
This is exactly how my dog is, when I train at the dog club this is what I tell the instructors, but they look at me like I’m just trying to give them excuses

Hronec will go fetch maximum 4 times whit or whitout reward
After that he will go somewhere els to play

Regards / Mikael
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Old 14-05-2010, 14:20   #27
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This is exactly how my dog is, when I train at the dog club this is what I tell the instructors, but they look at me like I’m just trying to give them excuses
I know the pain, Mikael!The instructor in our puppy club thought I was using the dog to excuse my own laziness

But now we have a six vlckas' group and our instructor is managing them pretty well
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/pl/gallery/subcat/0/1362/

She is an owner and breeder of fila brasileiro, a completely different breed but equally 'ambitious' as CSV. That's why she's flexible, so our CSVs like her a lot.
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Old 14-05-2010, 14:58   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
Let me expain the difference, as I see it, on a funny but real-life example:
Thanks dear, now I know I have an ideal working dog for protection of the owner
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Old 14-05-2010, 15:28   #29
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Another example:

When I say: "Fajdal, would you please show our friend how you jump on the garden-desk?" Fajdal does - answering: "I had no choice because you said please."

Two-way education ...
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Old 14-05-2010, 21:32   #30
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Another example:

When I say: "Fajdal, would you please show our friend how you jump on the garden-desk?" Fajdal does - answering: "I had no choice because you said please."

Two-way education ...
Exactly! I keep wondering who's learning more...
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Old 15-05-2010, 11:53   #31
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As for my Łowca; some time ago, our trainer has said; "he is doing everything perfectly well... if he knows, that he hasn't got any other choice".
Sometimes I really laugh at him, becuase it' s so obvious when he is doing something because he wants to, for expample when he isn't bored yet. When he is bored, or simply would like to do something else, he does what he is asked, but shows us PERFECTLY, what he thinks about it. Nobody has any doubts.
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Old 15-05-2010, 14:01   #32
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Originally Posted by Grin View Post
. When he is bored, or simply would like to do something else, he does what he is asked, but shows us PERFECTLY, what he thinks about it. Nobody has any doubts.
For the mantrail-exam in Swizerland we had to do an obidience test. Everybody knowing Gerda z Rofa and me very well was like that and making videos and photos because, according to them, Gerda and me where showing exactly the same expression , both of us really "love" obedience...

Ina
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Old 15-05-2010, 23:56   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
Let me expain the difference, as I see it, on a funny but real-life example:
1. you take your dog to a dog school to teach her recall - all GSDs repeat the command as many times as the owner wishes. Vlcak comes nicely a few times (rewarded!) but sooner or later gets bored, slows down, starts watching other dogs and people, etc. - this is training

2. you take your dog out to a park to socialize with other dogs. When called, other dogs come to their owners more or less at once; a vlcak comes OK (rewarded!), but it will take her a minute to finish her own businesses first, e.g. to say goodbye to her dog friends - this is sport

3. the same situation in the park, but somebody notices city guards' are parking the van. All the owners call their dogs to put muzzles on to avoid being fined. Vlcak comes first, runs like a lightning and sits in front of the owner - this is work.
soo funny,but true!!.

layla
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Old 16-05-2010, 19:34   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
For the mantrail-exam in Swizerland we had to do an obidience test. Everybody knowing Gerda z Rofa and me very well was like that and making videos and photos because, according to them, Gerda and me where showing exactly the same expression , both of us really "love" obedience...

Ina

We have been at a "normal" training lessons about... two or three times... (The problem is that our trainers like to work in a system suitable for GSD maybe. Well, and the even bigger problem is that I get bored much more before Brukne does ) And I remember our trainer just standing, looking at me and Brukne for a looong time and then saying "she is doing everything perfect, but her expresion says "you must have got crazy, woman, don't you see i know what you mean by this... how long will i have to repeat this?.." We were doing a REALLY boring recall training for an hour or so
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