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Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars...

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Old 01-04-2005, 23:01   #21
Huan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpup
We live in a time where dogs like pointers no longer point, retrievers no longer retrieve nor swim, and shepherd dogs are reduced to mere showdogs and robots. These once great working breeds still carry a name to denote their functions that now they no longer deserve
The case of CzWs looks a little bit different. The breed itself is not degenerated but the dogs are simply not used for the purposes the breed was created for. Since middle 80s till 98-99 there was a big stagnation. CzWs were breed only by private breeders who were not interested in training. However since about 98 or so we observe that more and more people are doing something with their dogs and an overall number of trained CzWs is growing all the time. Still there are only a few people who are professionals and train for a longer time - most people are amateurs and training is just a way of spending their free time. That's why there are not so many professionaly and top trained CzWs. Simply because there is no need for them. But when people want to do something more with them they can achieve a lot.

According to the breed standard CzW should be "versatile in his uses" but it's obvious that none of the breeds is perfect and even CzW has it's good and bad sides. It is generally known that CzWs are best in the tracking work and the obedience or protection is possible however they will never be as good as for example belgian or german shepherds in these trials. So if somebody wants to train with them for "real" then it's better to take advantages of their natural talents as the mentioned tracking abilities than to train for example IPO or Mondioring And you can already see first positive results: in Italy there are a few CzWs used in SAR (Search and Rescue) groups and are a few more are in phase of training. Of course I'm not saying that CzWs can be only used for tracking work because there are also some CzWs with IPO (even IPO3) or Agility (A3) exams but it's good to know all advantages and disadvantages of the breed to use the breed efficiently.
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Old 02-04-2005, 03:14   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona
I'm really trying to follow your reasoning, but find it a bit hard CzW is a young, but well-established breed. CzWs do not look like GSDs but more wofish and they also share specific features of character, temperament, etc. Poeple who have GSDs and CzWs at home are amazed at the differences between these two breeds. By cross-breeding them one will definitely be producing a mixed- breed dogs (mongrels) with characteristics difficult to predict.
Hi Rona,

First, thank you for your patience and valuable responses. Rest assured I'm not here to start a word war nor spoil a established breed. Like what you said, I need consultations not that I will embark on an immediate breeding program but simply to ponder on the possibility.

Technically you're right. A breed bred to another will produce a mixed-breed (mongrel), the status I believe the CzW had until its recognition. My point was not creation nor recognition but reinforcement using blood that's common to these two breeds in the hope of improving workability and intelligence. That's it, that's all. I am aware of the tracking ability of wolfdogs which could be put to good use in this calamity-ridden part of the world.

I don't dismiss the fact that the breeding will produce undesirables. That's always given though many documentations seem to point to the contrary. I simply think there will be better chances of satisfying the objectives with the percentage of wolfblood brought down to acceptable levels making the progenies more tractable thus, more GSD.

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Old 02-04-2005, 07:21   #23
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Originally Posted by Wolfpup
First, thank you for your patience and valuable responses. Rest assured I'm not here to start a word war nor spoil a established breed.
Neither am I . Exchanging opinions and having different views on issues does not mean a war, doesn't it I assume the forum was set for this purpose. If we all had the same opinions what should we discuss?

Quote:
Like what you said, I need consultations not that I will embark on an immediate breeding program but simply to ponder on the possibility.
That's the point. Experience shows that it's relatively easier to spoil something than to build... That why one should be exetremely cautious and responsible when 'acting God' - dealing with genes, etc. beacuse the far-effects may differ from the original assumptions.

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Technically you're right. A breed bred to another will produce a mixed-breed (mongrel), the status I believe the CzW had until its recognition.
That's right. But due to very specificly constrained conditions (possible to fulfil in a military kennel) the development of the breed was incredibly fast and focussed. I personally could not imagine having the experiment repeated, if not for other, than just humane reasons...

Quote:
My point was not creation nor recognition but reinforcement using blood that's common to these two breeds in the hope of improving workability and intelligence. That's it, that's all. I am aware of the tracking ability of wolfdogs which could be put to good use in this calamity-ridden part of the world.
I still belive this would be dangerous and, in my opinion, not necessarily successful.

Quote:
I don't dismiss the fact that the breeding will produce undesirables. That's always given though many documentations seem to point to the contrary.
I simply think there will be better chances of satisfying the objectives with the percentage of wolfblood brought down to acceptable levels making the progenies more tractable thus, more GSD.
I respect your views but can't help having a different opinion on this subject. Thanks for the discussion, anyway
Best regards
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:32   #24
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Wow,I really opened a can of worms!!!!!!
What needs to be remembered is that no breeding program produces a 100% return of the desired traits it is trying to produce.The reason that most people fail in getting a higher percentage of desired traits is because they don't adequately test the pups at 7 weeks,which cynologists agree is the age at which a dogs personality,or the main traits are already determined in the dog.However,no matter how good the parents are,the breeder is never going to eliminate the effect genetics has on the litter,so even the most intensive testing of a pup cannot rule out the genetic and new environmental variables that are out of your control.
Take for example,breeding Guide Dogs for the Blind:Australia's breeding program is world renowned,with many dogs bred here being exported around the world,however,the breeding master has stated that only 30% of the pups born will be successful in graduating to become a working dog,and Australian Police,who also have a breeding program for GSD and Rottweilers have found similar results.
What does happen is, that as a dog breeds function becomes less necessary or desirable,and it is bred solely for looks or companionship,it's working desire and ability either decrease and become non-existent,or it becomes a liability eg the Pit Bull Terrier.
My answer to the lack of CSW's & other working dog breeds gaining,and maintaining their working status is to encourage people to join dogsport clubs and have professional experienced trainers guide you thru the training regime,working out the best method of training for the dog,and as harsh as it is,if your dog is unable to attain a sufficient level of proficiency,don't breed it just enjoy having a beautiful loving companion guardian in your life.Of course,for those countries that don't have a large population available to do this,don't breed the shit out of them,just be careful how you breed!!!!
Simon
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Old 02-04-2005, 10:32   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Przemek
The case of CzWs looks a little bit different. The breed itself is not degenerated but the dogs are simply not used for the purposes the breed was created for. Since middle 80s till 98-99 there was a big stagnation. CzWs were breed only by private breeders who were not interested in training. However since about 98 or so we observe that more and more people are doing something with their dogs and an overall number of trained CzWs is growing all the time. Still there are only a few people who are professionals and train for a longer time - most people are amateurs and training is just a way of spending their free time. That's why there are not so many professionaly and top trained CzWs. Simply because there is no need for them. But when people want to do something more with them they can achieve a lot.

According to the breed standard CzW should be "versatile in his uses" but it's obvious that none of the breeds is perfect and even CzW has it's good and bad sides. It is generally known that CzWs are best in the tracking work and the obedience or protection is possible however they will never be as good as for example belgian or german shepherds in these trials. So if somebody wants to train with them for "real" then it's better to take advantages of their natural talents as the mentioned tracking abilities than to train for example IPO or Mondioring And you can already see first positive results: in Italy there are a few CzWs used in SAR (Search and Rescue) groups and are a few more are in phase of training. Of course I'm not saying that CzWs can be only used for tracking work because there are also some CzWs with IPO (even IPO3) or Agility (A3) exams but it's good to know all advantages and disadvantages of the breed to use the breed efficiently.

Hi Przemek,

Funny I was about to raise the question of why this breed isn't much put to good use after reading all its qualities in the breed standard. I understand it was meant primarilly for service work. It could have provided a great experience and a rare opportunity to work and understand a breed yet unaffected by human failings.

Since it has been discussed here that the breed gets bored in repititious training, then wouldn't this be the reason why its development has not been fully exploited, the inability of modern training methods to go deep into the animal's soul?

Best regards...


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