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Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars...

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Old 24-11-2002, 17:01   #1
Per Olav
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Hi.
The list of dogs with certificate show a lot of "codes" like ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV
2, ZOP, ZUP, ZV1 etc.
What is the meaning of each code, anyone please :-)

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Old 24-11-2002, 17:31   #2
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Hello,

Quote:
The list of dogs with certificate show a lot of "codes" like ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV2, ZOP, ZUP, ZV1 etc. What is the meaning of each code, anyone please :-)
I would have to write here regulations of every certificate but I try to
explain it simply. First of all. The most easiest is the ZOP exam which
includes parts of very simple obedience (like waking with the dog on and
without leash, sit-down and etc.). ZOP is exactly the same like internation
rescue exam - RESCUE DOG SUITABILITY Test (RH-E) but without tracking. The
ZV1 (or VZ1) is a test (not a real certificate) for rescue dogs in Czech
Republic and it's endurance test (the owner on the bike and the dog have to
cover a distance of 20km within about 2h). The other certificates, that is:
ZM, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZPU1 and ZPU2 include obedience and already some parts of
protection work and tracking work. The easiest among these are ZPU1 (by ZPU1
you don't have real protection work but just guarding of owner's object or
simply tracking - you can choose one of those two tests) and ZM. The most
advanced are ZVV exams and could be compared to international IPO or SchH
exams but have some slight differences (for example you may use both type of
commands such as: voice and optical commands, in IPO and SchH you may use
voice OR optical commands). I would say that ZVV are a little bit easier
than the international exams because they are not judges so severe as the
international ones. But to simplify anything you could say that ZVV1 is like
IPO1 and ZVV3 like IPO3.

Greetings,
Przemek
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Old 24-11-2002, 17:49   #3
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Quote:
I would say that ZVV are a little bit easier
than the international exams because they are not judges so >severe as the international ones. But to simplify anything you could say >that ZVV1 is like IPO1 and ZVV3 like IPO3.
I don't agree with you. In my opinion ZVV2 and especially ZVV3 is MORE
difficult then IPO3 or SchH3.
Eva
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Old 24-11-2002, 18:50   #4
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Hello Eva,

Quote:
I don't agree with you. In my opinion ZVV2 and especially ZVV3 is MORE
difficult then IPO3 or SchH3.
Comparing the regulations of ZVV3 and IPO3 the differences are minimal but
the greatest differences, I think, are in the method how specific parts of
the exam are being carred out and are being judged. You can show the dog
every command with hands and also say the command during ZVV3 (it would
result in penalty point in IPO3). You cannnot give commands to the dog when
changing direction during IPO and SchH (it's acceptable for ZVV). And also
the judges during ZVV, as I observed, do not apply such big attention as IPO
judges to the principle that every command should be executed with
happiness. There is ever a non-official regulation in IPO that the dog can
maximaly get 90 points of 100 possible for obedience part if all parts were
made 100%correctly but were done without visible satisfaction of the dog.

Other example is the tracking part: sure the track is longer and older for
ZVV3 than for IPO3 (about 1000m and 3h old for ZVV3 and 600m and 1h old for
IPO3) but during IPO3 it is required that the dog goes all the time with its
nose by the ground and every single raising of the head can be assessed with
penalty point. In ZVV the more important is the result of the whole tracking
not the style (I don't say the style is unimportant but it's sure less
important than in IPO).

Simple said ZVV checks how the dog mastered all parts of exam and IPO
required additionaly that all parts should be made showily. From the dog
handler IPO requires a 100% self-control (without any unnecessary moves).

Greetings,
Przemek
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Old 24-11-2002, 19:41   #5
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One important thing: this year FCI approved the exams prepared by the
Slovakian Wolfdog Club specially for CzW. I mean here endurance tests SV1
(40 km), SV2 (70 km) and SV3 (100km).

Greetings,
Margo
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Old 24-11-2002, 19:44   #6
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Hi, all,

I join Per Olav voice and request the more complete answer, even if it's a long one!!! 8-)

We, in France, are on the way to propose tests for CsV, we NEED your help, czech and slovak people, in order to be
compliant with YOUR regulation!

Thanks in advance

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Old 24-11-2002, 20:32   #7
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Hi Przemek,
so once again.

Quote:
You can show the dog
every command with hands and also say the command >during ZVV3.
It's your mistake, becouse in ZVV3 (and in ZVV2 too)is in obedience mostly
allowed only one command (defined in rule). IPO is "theater" for people (
precise, you must know how many steps you go, dog must be happy...). Not for
CSW, I think :0). I never saw so happy obedience in CSW.
Czech national exam are diffucult. And have you ever seen some ZVV2 or ZVV3? For me dog with ZVV2 is better than dog with IPO 4 :0).
Eva
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Old 24-11-2002, 20:52   #8
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Quote:
Do any CWs have these certificates then? Where do you see this list?
Ann from US
You can seen it here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=certificates

Greetings,
Margo
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Old 24-11-2002, 21:59   #9
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Quote:
It's your mistake, becouse in ZVV3 (and in ZVV2 too)is in obedience mostly allowed only one command (defined in rule).
There is a part in ZVV regulation: "Povelovou techniku uvádí zkusební rád u
kazdého cviku zkratkou Z=povel zvukový, P=povel posunkový. Pokud zkusební
rád uvádí obe zkratky, muze psovod pouzít jednoho z povelu nebo oba
soucastne." and yes in obedience and tracking part you may use only voice
commands but the whole protection work may be done with voice and optical
commands together (in IPO you use only voice OR optical commands).

Here is a comparision of some parts of IPO2 and ZVV2:

- In IPO2 every exercise is more complex and not executing a small part of
every exercise have big influence on the number of points. In ZVV2 every
"simple" exercise is divided in smaller one and every such part is rated
separately. For example: sit-down-up, barking, "come here" command and etc.
are in ZVV2 separate commands and in IPO are parts of bigger exercises (for
sit-down-up in ZVV you'll get 10 points, in IPO you'll get much less for the
same action because it's just part of bigger exercise which is also rated
with 10 points).

- In IPO2 you have some additional exercises and your dog should do also:
* walking on the leash
* leaving the dog with coming back (in ZVV2 is only leaving and the owner
comes back)
* aport through A-hrudle (in ZVV2 the dog goes through the hrudle but
don't have to aport)
* simple aport of 1kg object
* sending away with lying down (at distance) - in ZVV2 you just have
sending away and coming back

Quote:
IPO is "theater" for people (precise, you must
know how many steps you go, dog must be happy...).
Yes, and that's why I said it is much harder than ZVV. We are not talking if
IPO is natural for the dogs but whether it's harder or not than ZVV. It is a
kind of sport and you have to accept the rules. This "theater" means that
both the dog and owner have to do the commands perfectly and some of them
have to be made "unnaturaly" and it does afford more from the owner and dog
because of it. And don't forget the german precision )) There are exact
arrangements how every exercise should be judged and there is no place for
different interpretation of the judge. The ZVV leaves the judge much more
room for his own judgement.

Quote:
Not for CSW, I think :0). I never saw so happy obedience in CSW.
Don't worry. Next time I will show you a video casette with one of such
dogs. Do you really think that the dogs are really happy during the
training. It is just a question of a very, very hard work of the dog and the
owner.

Quote:
Czech national exam are diffucult. And have you ever seen some ZVV2 or ZVV3?
You're right. I never saw the exam. I just saw dogs with such certificates.

Quote:
For me dog with ZVV2 is better than dog with IPO 4 :0).
OK. But how would you explain this years results from ZVV1 and IPO1
competition in Roudnice and Lazne Belohrad. According to the points ALL dogs
which started in IPO1 competition wouldn't pass the exam because none of
them passed the 70 points mark (and the same dogs got enough points on the
ZVV1 competition in Roudnice to pass it). And further with one exception all
of them would have serious problems with passing obedience in IPO1. And I
don't think it's a problem of CSW but of the owners who focus on the
free-style of the ZVV regulation and not on precision required by IPO...


Greetings,
Przemek
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Old 25-11-2002, 09:12   #10
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Hi Przemek,
It's nice that twoo theorists discused here
So, I think ZVV is more useful for practice than IPO.That's all.

Quote:
Do you really think that the dogs are really happy during the
training. It is just a question of a very, very hard work of the dog and
the owner.
The top works dogs - BS, GS - as I know, know only training and their
kennels. Sad. But it's another part of book......not about CSW.

Quote:
But how would you explain this years results from ZVV1 and IPO1
competition in Roudnice and Lazne Belohrad.
Very simply :0). How many czech's CSW train IPO ??? For me IPO competition
in LB was big tragicomedy. Dog handlers ( not all) read rules of IPO in the
evening before competition......
And differences in obedience between IPO1 -3 are very small. In ZVV are some
special exercise- not so easy.

Finally, I prefered czech exam ( I'm nationalist :0)). And the last - how
many CSW have IPO3 or ZVV 2 (3)? It's reality.
CSW are working dogs, but you must have great patience and use your brain.
Compar CSW and GS working ability....:0) GS or BS are much more better for
sport.
That's all. I'm only theorist but realist.
have a nice day
Eva
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Old 25-11-2002, 09:50   #11
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Hi Eva,

Quote:
For me IPO competition in LB was big tragicomedy. Dog handlers ( not all) read rules of IPO in the evening before competition......
Sorry, am not sure, that somebody, who dont participate on this competition have right to valuate it. This owners,
which shows self in LB makes a regulary training with own wolfdogs. And they want to show, how far just are. Its
little bit unpolite to make fun from this people (please, dont understand it so, that I wrote it, because I was a
participant). Competition is for me (and as I know for majority of participants in LB) the chance to show, what my
wolfdog are trained. Never will be perfect, but I think, that everybody by this competition shows the effort to be
good with own wolfdogs and every wolfdog shows by some parts of competition, that CsW can reach the best position.
And, that some people read the IPO rules first before competition ? Its absolutely true and you can see from it,
that nobody understand the IPO competition like a question of life or death. Simply our dogs doing something are on
some level of training and basicaly is doesnt matter, according which rules is the competition. Sure, we can discuss
about it, if the competition make like a officialy or only like a internal Club competition. But its just another
thema.
Please dont make fun from the people, which something doing with own wolfdogs and have so much courage, that
although are not perfect, want to show something. Critique outside the competition ring is very simple and easy ...

Quote:
Finally, I prefered czech exam ( I'm nationalist :0)). And the last - how
many CSW have IPO3 or ZVV 2 (3)? It's reality.
CSW are working dogs,
am glad, that I hear from you, that CsW is working dog. Can you explaine us, please, your opinion, that in Slovakia
today can be in working class in show a dog with 40 km run only, without any obedience or other working knowledges ?
And that this trend is pushing up in Czech club as well ?

Thanks
Pavel
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Old 25-11-2002, 10:53   #12
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Hi Pavel
I was awaited yours reaction. For me it's quite difficult explain you my
opinions in english. But I try it.Shortly, becouse I must do some more
important things.
IPO in LB was tragicomedy when we compered it with Roudnice. It's clear.

Quote:
Its little bit unpolite to make fun from this people.Please dont make fun from the people, which something doing with own wolfdogs and have so much courage, that although are not perfect, want to show something Fun is realy strong word. IPO in LB wasn't good publicity for CSW working
ability - but it's about judiciousness.I prefered quality - no quantity. I am glad, that I hear from you, that CsW is working dog
I never said CSW isn't working dog. But the question is what you mean
working.......it's impossible compared GS and CSW. If I want really working
dog (who is quite easy to train - of course, it isn't so easy and if I want
be really good in dog-sport) I NEVER BUY CSW !!!!!!

Quote:
canyou explaine us, please, your opinion, that in Slovakia today can be in working class in show a dog with 40 km run only, without any
obedience or other working knowledges ?
And that this trend is pushing up in Czech club as well ?

It's your fight. My opinion is that in working class must be dog's who have
exam which consist of obedience,tracking and defence. It's my opinion.
But I mean for champions titul is ZOP or VZ sufficient - and of course CAC,
but not only 2, like today.
I can imagine yours reaction - yours citation of rules etc.
But for me working class and champions titul are different things.

My dog have only ZOP and VZ1 now - and were in Nitra in working
class......but he can go without leash :0).
sorry, my english it's not so good and discussionswith Pavel are neverending
stories.

Eva
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Old 25-11-2002, 12:25   #13
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Hi Ann,

Quote:
What does this mean? Where is a title where the dog runs 40km? Does
the owner run as well?
I dont have yet the rules, but its only run 40 km and the owner can runnig as well ), but mostly used bicycle. And
its really only run, nothing more.

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Old 25-11-2002, 12:49   #14
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Hi Eva,

Quote:
Fun is realy strong word. IPO in LB wasn't good publicity for CSW working
ability - but it's about judiciousness.I prefered quality - no quantity.
Who dont prefere quality ? But quality grows always only from quantity. Its reason, why we organisate more different
competitions. Its doesnt matter, that comming there wolfdogs, which can only sit down and walking by leg. Its a
motivation for the people to continue the training and they can see, that is more beginners similary. If we will
organisate only competitions like Championchip in Roudnice, then comming very less people there (in Roudnice were 6
wolfdogs only). Compare with last ZOP/ZPU1 competition in Svetla, where participated 14 wolfdogs. Of course not all
were perfect, some wolfdogs shows the absolutely basic only, but everybody get the motivation for the training and
am sure, that next time will be just better results.
This is not problem only in Czech republic, but generaly. I other countries is the problem more deep, because there
is number of wolfdogs, which regulary trained, very very less. We all must care about working gens of our dogs. And
quality grows automaticaly from big amount of working dogs.

Quote:
It's your fight.
Sorry, its not fight. My opinion is only, that "working dog" is not only dog, which can run 40 km.

Quote:
My opinion is that in working class must be dog's who have
exam which consist of obedience,tracking and defence. It's my opinion.
But I mean for champions titul is ZOP or VZ sufficient - and of course CAC, but not only 2, like today.
Here first please one notice for foreigners - ZOP is obedience exam and VZ is run 20 km. Am not sure, if only basicaly obedience exam enought, but am sure, that only 20 km run is absolutely unsufficient.

Quote:
I can imagine yours reaction - yours citation of rules etc.
But for me working class and champions titul are different things.
We have a working race and from this thing come everything other. I mean, that if we will keep about working gens of
our wolfdogs, then champion cant be dog, which is beautifull only and can run 20 or 40 km (and basicaly this
distance can running most wolfdogs). Same is it with the breed. I mean, that we would breeding only on dogs, which
show the working talent (is discussion how). But working talent is not endurance only.

Eva is right in this thema is with me mostly neverending discussion, but believe me, when I see the wolfdogs, they
are absolutely uncontrolable, shy or agressive (shyness and agressivity is in 99% same reason), then just cry. And
we can see, how on this wolfdogs some people breeding and in this way and sense "destroying" or beautifull race,
which we all loving so much.

Howg
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Old 25-11-2002, 20:45   #15
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Hi,

Quote:
Sorry, its not fight. My opinion is only, that "working dog" is not only dog, which can run 40 km.

OK. But first of all who said that the dogs with 40 km run are working dogs?
)) It just has been said that the test should be enough for a dog which
would like to have Show Champion title (want to be a Beauty Champion). For
people wanting to have Working Champion there are other types of activities:
international IPO competitions where after getting enough number of CACIT
certificates the dog gets Internation Working Champion title )))

Quote:
We have a working race and from this thing come everything other. I mean, that if we will keep about working gens of our wolfdogs, then champion cant be dog, which is beautifull only and can run 20 or 40 km (and basicaly this distance can running most wolfdogs). Same is it with the breed. I mean, that we would breeding only on dogs, which show the working talent (is discussion how). But working talent is not endurance only.
OK Pavel. But look at the THEORETICAL scenario: we have a nice working dog
with ZVV3 but is total parody of the breed standard in respect to exterieur.
Should such dog be a show champion because of his working abilities? I don't
think so because it's against the rule of being a "Beauty" champion.

And if you require from Show Champion that he should be beautiful and have
working title then it's like searching for a needle in a haystack.

Quote:
Eva is right in this thema is with me mostly neverending
discussion, but believe me, when I see the wolfdogs, they
are absolutely uncontrolable, shy or agressive (shyness and
agressivity is in 99% same reason), then just cry.
OK. But that's what bonitations are for. On the bonitation very shy or
agressive dogs should be excluded from breeding. The shows in Czech
Republic are not required for receiving breeding permission (like in our
country or in Germany) and should be considered as beauty contests.

Greetings,
Przemek
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Old 25-11-2002, 21:04   #16
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Hi Eva,

Quote:
> GS or BS are much more better for
> sport. That's all. I'm only theorist but realist.
> have a nice day
If I would compare a "show quality" GSD and CzW then the CzW are much better
))) And the other thing. I would not be such pessimist. Look at the
population of CzW and GSD. There are, I think, about 2000-3000 CzWs alive on
the whole world and the number of GSD can be counted in hundreds of
thousands and if you would compare the percentage of GSDs having IPO3
certificate with percentage of CzWs with IPO3 then I'm not sure which breed
would have the better result. There is currently one CzW (Hasso) with
IPO3... so the percentage would be 1/3000 = 0,033% .... and what it is for
GSDs????

What I am driving at? The number of CzWs is way to small to talk about it's
usefulness for sports. The CzWs are just waiting for people who will now how
to train them and will be able to reach their maximum abilities. For example
the GSD owners community associates many working judges and trainers who
have years of experience in training. How many such peoples are working with
CzWs?

And another example why we should not talk about CzW not useful for sports -
Irma z Litavske kotliny. Who would say that CzW can be the agility champion?
Nobody tried so there was none and then after few years Marta started to
train with Irma and two years ago she was on the 2nd place in the Polish
national agility championship (so she was Polish Agility Vice-champion) and
was member of Polish representation in Helsinki on World Agility
Championship. Earlier the people would say: no, CzW is not good for
agility...

Greetings,
Przemek


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Old 25-11-2002, 21:15   #17
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Hi Pavel,
On distance I follow this interesting discussion. And I agree with your
opinion.
That's also why I asked before if you can see a difference in CsW type
between "working" and "show" dogs (as you unfortunately can see in other
breeds)

It's a pity that your country is to far away for me, so I can't follow a
training there. But in future I'll sure come for some competitions!
For now I train basical obedience and search for all kind of other ways to
work with my dog. But it is difficult to find it and certainly when you want
to train with other CSw!
I think it is always better to dó something with your dogs (even when it
isn't a official training and even when you don't want to go to
competitions) So we start also training with friends with other dogs for
waterworking and search people. (and our Csw likes it!) And when there is a
little bit of snow we also start with pulling sledge. On this moment there
is no snow here, but our dog alreaydy got used to a harness!
So I think it's also possible to work when you can't find a special
training.

By the way, it strikes me that a lot of trainers in Holland have the same
tedious opinion about a Csw: "That isn't a workingdog. You can't train
them, spare the trouble to try it." But I notice what you do with these dogs
in your country. And I am "self-willed" and like to prove the opposite!
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Old 25-11-2002, 21:25   #18
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Hi Przemek, now I absollutly agree with you. Thanks for yours answer. eva

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Old 25-11-2002, 21:45   #19
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Hi,
only shortly because I dont will be "neverending" ).

Quote:
OK. But first of all who said that the dogs with 40 km run are working dogs?
If your dog is in working class in show isnt working dog ?

Quote:
OK Pavel. But look at the THEORETICAL scenario: we have a nice working dog with ZVV3 but is total parody of the breed standard in respect to exterieur. Should such dog be a show champion because of his working abilities? I don't think so because it's against the rule of being a "Beauty" champion. And if you require from Show Champion that he should be beautiful and have working title then it's like searching for a needle in a haystack.
And its a principial question. Its possible two ways. First is, that we
want to have much champions as possible and then we make a very weak
rules. Or we will have only the absolutely best of the best for champion
and then we make rules according this philosophy. Eva wrote about the
quality and quantity. And this is exact the case, where is important the
really quality. Champion must be the best of the bests, not only nice,
but the wolfdog with all best (exteriör, character, working gens etc.).
Most people will always push to make a weak rules for champion, because
want to reach it with many own dogs, but I think, that this is
absolutely devalvation of this title (similary like is just absolutely
degraded valuation "excellent" on shows).

Quote:
OK. But that's what bonitations are for. On the bonitation very shy or
agressive dogs should be excluded from breeding. The shows in Czech
Republic are not required for receiving breeding permission (like in our
country or in Germany) and should be considered as beauty contests.
No, not agree. Show is show and its doesnt matter, if is coupled with
breeding rules or not. According the FCI rules must be every show same.
For working races must be the best dogs universal and not only beautiful.

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Old 25-11-2002, 21:52   #20
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Hi to all

Quote:
Champion must be the best of the bests, not only nice,
but the wolfdog with all best (exteriör, character, working >gens etc.).
what is working genes ? Genetic is one of my favourite topic :0). How can
you recognise dog with or without "working genes" :0))))).
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