Early Socialization vs. Disease Risk

Gypsy Wolf · 28-02-2010, 01:53

Hi all,
My CsV, Luna, is 9 weeks old and due for her next set of vaccinations soon. I know this 8-12 week period in puppy development is critical for socialization - but it also risky as their immunity may not be up to par for some of the common dog diseases (such as Parvo or Distemper). Coming from Malinois and Euro GSD, I would rather risk exposure to disease and hope her immunity is OK, and make sure she is socialized appropriately - as opposed to keeping her isolated until her vaccinations are complete but now I have missed the socialization "window" and end up with a poorly socialized dog. Temperament and character are both genetic as well as environmental, and exposure to various stimuli at the right developmental periods is important to the proper development of the dog's personality.
Does anyone have opinions one way or the other and why? Have other CsV owners had bad experiences with isolation or with exposure to disease? I know I have heard horror stories of Parvo wiping out entire litters, but I have also seen my share of spooky dogs that were not exposed to other environments at the appropriate times and are permanently "damaged" and have difficulty adapting.
Look forward to hearing from you all.

Nebulosa · 28-02-2010, 05:49

It depend a lot of the situation in your country for these diseases, here I simply have no courage to let my dogs touch outside my garden or meet different non-well-known dogs untill they complet 4 months, having the basic vacination all done and already working, with perfect imunization.
I keep socializing my dogs at house, with different sounds, exposing them in different situations, with a small trip by car little by little I made them know the crazy side of the city in a safe way.
Also I use the house of my friends and parents for make the pup know a different place, with different smell and also with different dogs.
Anyway my dogs are separated in two "packs", so the young live with one but often I make the little one meet the other "pack", for the pup its already a different dog.
As I live almost in the second centrum of my city, its common they listen hard sounds suddenly, like shots or explosions, when a fotball team wins its sounds like if the world would fall or as if we're in the middle of a war.

I can say that the real socialization here starts after 4 months, that when the pup can walk through the city, meet a good size pack of different dogs in park, play in avery different place and you dont need to worrie about distemper of parvo.
But they've learned everything previously already before, at home, even if in one small exemple, they already knows how to react and how keep going without problems, so the socialization can be done perfectly after the 4 months, as the basic has been already done at home.

When you have a dog (or a pack) with excelent behaviour and very well socializated, you can also use his help to teach the pup, it can turn your live very easy as sometimes you only will use the pups ability of learn observing in your favor.

Rona · 28-02-2010, 09:29

We used to carry our two month old during walks. She protested when we tried to put her in bag (as some owners do), so we took turns and carried her into a park, where she saw other people and dogs, into the city centre, next to a stadium when a match was played, to some friendly stores, we drove her to our friends where she could play with known, healthy dogs in their gardens, to our workplaces, etc. Sometimes we put her on the grass for a few minutes, but only in “dogs not allowed” areas. We tried to expose her to various sounds and noises, new people who came to visit us and we talked a lot to her, like to a baby. Surprisingly she picked up a lot of our speech at that time, but it showed she understood certain terms - instructions, names, etc. only later. She also enjoyed sitting on a window sill and watching the street.

The length of the quarantine depends on the local climate, time of the year, the spread of diseases, the kind of vaccinations, so I’d rely on vets’ advice. Our vet told us to be extremely careful for a full week after each vaccination and to use common sense – when starting walking her properly keep off the sides of the pavements, avoid lawns that seemed to be “dog toilets”, so that her immune system could gradually adapt to new 'bacteriological enviroment' etc.

I think the owner should balance the socialization vs safety needs, but some kind of risk is inevitable towards each side.

PS Lorka started attending the kindergarden for pups and we walked her every day to our local "playground" where she could meet lots of dogs and play with them when she was around 3 months.

Gypsy Wolf · 28-02-2010, 17:33

Thanks so much for your input ~ I guess I am kind of "old school" when it comes to socializing vs immunity... my early mentors insisted exposing puppies early and sort of took the stance that if their immune system couldn't handle it, perhaps they shouldn't be part of the gene pool. Of course, this was with breeds like GSDs and Malinois who have higher numbers and a bigger gene pool...
I also have conflicting input on vaccinations - some insist 2 week windows, others 3 and still others say every 4 weeks is best - the fewer shots, the better. I have decided to do every 2 and a half weeks - I am too afraid of stretching it all the way to 4. So Luna's vaccines are arriving in the mail early next week.
Living in FL the risk of disease I think is perhaps higher than in other places as we do not have cold weather to kill off "bugs" and as a dog trainer, I really put any dog at risk as I am dealing with them all day. Usually, though, my students are healthy - luckily I don't work in a Vet's office anymore where taking care of sick dogs is the job and no matter how much you try to disinfect yourself, you are going to bring something home... I started spritzing myself with anti-parvo disinfectant before I come inside, but I still think there is risk...
So she will get immune-boosting supplements, good food and I will be selective where I take her. I just want to make sure I do all I can to foster her confidence and boldness.

yukidomari · 17-03-2010, 22:55

Hi Luna's mom..

I find that the window for proper socialization closes very, very rapidly and for that reason I wouldn't wait until all the shots were done to start taking the dog out. Of course, I don't think you should head on over to the dogpark or anything like that.

We believe in minimal vaccinations as per Dr. Dodd's newest protocol which is roughly .. start shots (distemper, parvo, adenovirus) at 10 weeks, then every 4 weeks ending at 18 weeks.. rabies at 6 months if possible) Booster at 1 year old and titer here on out. We have used this protocol for our youngest two dogs and honestly we feel better doing so.
There is ongoing research regarding over-vaccination and Dr. Dodd is a leading American expert in immunology so we trust her (plus she is VERY NICE!)

We have also carried our dogs many places when they were young. If you are afraid of risk, a carrier or a sling is probably your best bet.

Have fun with your puppy!! We met your pup's brother over the weekend and we are in LOVE.

EDIT: Here's a little on what Dr. Dodds says about vaccs:
"
While vaccines have significantly reduced the incidence of serious infectious diseases over the years, increasing evidence implicates vaccines in triggering immune-mediated and other chronic disorders. The duration of immunity from vaccination is now accepted to be at least 5 or more years for the clinically important diseases of dogs and cats. Accordingly, new vaccine protocols are recommended: 1) giving the puppy or kitten vaccine series followed by a booster at one year of age; 2) administering further boosters in a combination vaccine every three years or as split components alternating every other year until; 3) the pet reaches geriatric age, when booster vaccination is often unnecessary and may be inadvisable. In the years between or instead of boosters, serum vaccine antibody titers can be measured to determine the adequacy of immune memory."

Here is a her resume:
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-RESUME.HTM

and here is the minimal vacc schedule and a lot of really insightful info regarding vaccinations and over-vaccinations:
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODD...-PROTOCOLS.HTM

Gypsy Wolf · 18-03-2010, 22:54

Thank you so much for the information - it's greatly appreciated. We have been circumspect with both vaccinations and socialization - I am trying to maximize her exposure to the environment without risking her health. Tonight we are headed to a puppy kindergarten for some socialization with pups her own age and size.
This weekend we have a local AKC show I will likely bring her to as well - I am showing my Malinois and have found shows to be excellent socialization opportunities.
Which brother did you meet? Luna is a pistol - the most interactive puppy I have ever raised. I wouldn't say she is "sweet" - more like she is "spicy"...

yukidomari · 19-03-2010, 03:01

You're welcome!

.. which brother? Well, Marcy called him 'puppy'..

He's the last pup she has left. A mouthy, cool little dude!

Gypsy Wolf · 19-03-2010, 22:32

Too funny! I hope Marcy finds a good home for him - he would be a super SchH prospect I think - Luna LOVES SchH.
Are you looking to get a Vlcak?

yukidomari · 19-03-2010, 22:35

Yes, I am, actually.. I've been looking into them since 2008 but really planning to take one home perhaps next winter or spring after our move.

Well, you know how it is, I'm sure! Never too soon to research or look around for -just- the right pup and -just- the right breeder, though at this point I've pretty much settled on Marcy.. the rest is, well, all unforeseeable how this all will pan out. I've thought about import but to tell the truth I always feel the most comfortable with kennels I've had the chance to visit.. I don't think I will be going to Europe any time soon given Visa restrictions and all.

GalomyOak · 20-03-2010, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

You're welcome!

.. which brother? Well, Marcy called him 'puppy'..

He's the last pup she has left. A mouthy, cool little dude!

Galomy Oak Adams Morgan - red collar - (one of my favorite districts in D.C with lots of history and many good college stories

) - Corgan is his call name.

I would sell him to the right home, I've gotten plenty of inquiries - he is hard as nails, in looks and personality he is Anthea's legacy, for sure. I won't be too upset if he has to stay with me either.

Marcy

21-03-2010, 17:55

Aww, Marcy, that was my favorite from your pictures!

I get so jealous hearing about everyone's pups knowing I can't have one yet!

Gypsy Wolf · 23-03-2010, 04:07

Well they are definitely a handful! I have raised a ton of different breeds, and I can say, hands-down, Luna has challenged me the most. I am having to use all the tricks in my dog-training "bag"!!!
She is an absolute pleasure and SOOO cute I can't possibly say anything negative. She is exactly what I think a vlcak should be - outgoing, bold, confident, social (within reason - she is not a Labrador), very "forward" and a SUPER communicator with other dogs. In fact, my friends and I want to film her to show people dog body language as hers is SO clear and exaggerated in comparison to other breeds.
That said, I can't imagine a dog like her in the wrong home. It would be an absolute disaster! Vlcaks are much like my other beloved breed, the Belgian Malinois - in the wrong hands they are a weapon! On the flipside, there are German Shepherds like my girl Kiri or my collie - breeds I would trust even with an idiot. They are so smart and so forgiving.
Now, the one thing I miss, having a vlcak, is the lack of breed specific stuff available to wear or show off! I guess I am going to have to make my own? And why aren't we on Europe's "working dog web"???

28-02-2010, 01:53	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Early Socialization vs. Disease Risk Hi all, My CsV, Luna, is 9 weeks old and due for her next set of vaccinations soon. I know this 8-12 week period in puppy development is critical for socialization - but it also risky as their immunity may not be up to par for some of the common dog diseases (such as Parvo or Distemper). Coming from Malinois and Euro GSD, I would rather risk exposure to disease and hope her immunity is OK, and make sure she is socialized appropriately - as opposed to keeping her isolated until her vaccinations are complete but now I have missed the socialization "window" and end up with a poorly socialized dog. Temperament and character are both genetic as well as environmental, and exposure to various stimuli at the right developmental periods is important to the proper development of the dog's personality. Does anyone have opinions one way or the other and why? Have other CsV owners had bad experiences with isolation or with exposure to disease? I know I have heard horror stories of Parvo wiping out entire litters, but I have also seen my share of spooky dogs that were not exposed to other environments at the appropriate times and are permanently "damaged" and have difficulty adapting. Look forward to hearing from you all.

28-02-2010, 05:49	#2
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	It depend a lot of the situation in your country for these diseases, here I simply have no courage to let my dogs touch outside my garden or meet different non-well-known dogs untill they complet 4 months, having the basic vacination all done and already working, with perfect imunization. I keep socializing my dogs at house, with different sounds, exposing them in different situations, with a small trip by car little by little I made them know the crazy side of the city in a safe way. Also I use the house of my friends and parents for make the pup know a different place, with different smell and also with different dogs. Anyway my dogs are separated in two "packs", so the young live with one but often I make the little one meet the other "pack", for the pup its already a different dog. As I live almost in the second centrum of my city, its common they listen hard sounds suddenly, like shots or explosions, when a fotball team wins its sounds like if the world would fall or as if we're in the middle of a war. I can say that the real socialization here starts after 4 months, that when the pup can walk through the city, meet a good size pack of different dogs in park, play in avery different place and you dont need to worrie about distemper of parvo. But they've learned everything previously already before, at home, even if in one small exemple, they already knows how to react and how keep going without problems, so the socialization can be done perfectly after the 4 months, as the basic has been already done at home. When you have a dog (or a pack) with excelent behaviour and very well socializated, you can also use his help to teach the pup, it can turn your live very easy as sometimes you only will use the pups ability of learn observing in your favor. __________________

28-02-2010, 09:29	#3
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	We used to carry our two month old during walks. She protested when we tried to put her in bag (as some owners do), so we took turns and carried her into a park, where she saw other people and dogs, into the city centre, next to a stadium when a match was played, to some friendly stores, we drove her to our friends where she could play with known, healthy dogs in their gardens, to our workplaces, etc. Sometimes we put her on the grass for a few minutes, but only in “dogs not allowed” areas. We tried to expose her to various sounds and noises, new people who came to visit us and we talked a lot to her, like to a baby. Surprisingly she picked up a lot of our speech at that time, but it showed she understood certain terms - instructions, names, etc. only later. She also enjoyed sitting on a window sill and watching the street. The length of the quarantine depends on the local climate, time of the year, the spread of diseases, the kind of vaccinations, so I’d rely on vets’ advice. Our vet told us to be extremely careful for a full week after each vaccination and to use common sense – when starting walking her properly keep off the sides of the pavements, avoid lawns that seemed to be “dog toilets”, so that her immune system could gradually adapt to new 'bacteriological enviroment' etc. I think the owner should balance the socialization vs safety needs, but some kind of risk is inevitable towards each side. PS Lorka started attending the kindergarden for pups and we walked her every day to our local "playground" where she could meet lots of dogs and play with them when she was around 3 months. __________________ Last edited by Rona; 28-02-2010 at 10:07.

17-03-2010, 22:55	#5
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Hi Luna's mom.. I find that the window for proper socialization closes very, very rapidly and for that reason I wouldn't wait until all the shots were done to start taking the dog out. Of course, I don't think you should head on over to the dogpark or anything like that. We believe in minimal vaccinations as per Dr. Dodd's newest protocol which is roughly .. start shots (distemper, parvo, adenovirus) at 10 weeks, then every 4 weeks ending at 18 weeks.. rabies at 6 months if possible) Booster at 1 year old and titer here on out. We have used this protocol for our youngest two dogs and honestly we feel better doing so. There is ongoing research regarding over-vaccination and Dr. Dodd is a leading American expert in immunology so we trust her (plus she is VERY NICE!) We have also carried our dogs many places when they were young. If you are afraid of risk, a carrier or a sling is probably your best bet. Have fun with your puppy!! We met your pup's brother over the weekend and we are in LOVE. EDIT: Here's a little on what Dr. Dodds says about vaccs: " While vaccines have significantly reduced the incidence of serious infectious diseases over the years, increasing evidence implicates vaccines in triggering immune-mediated and other chronic disorders. The duration of immunity from vaccination is now accepted to be at least 5 or more years for the clinically important diseases of dogs and cats. Accordingly, new vaccine protocols are recommended: 1) giving the puppy or kitten vaccine series followed by a booster at one year of age; 2) administering further boosters in a combination vaccine every three years or as split components alternating every other year until; 3) the pet reaches geriatric age, when booster vaccination is often unnecessary and may be inadvisable. In the years between or instead of boosters, serum vaccine antibody titers can be measured to determine the adequacy of immune memory." Here is a her resume: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-RESUME.HTM and here is the minimal vacc schedule and a lot of really insightful info regarding vaccinations and over-vaccinations: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODD...-PROTOCOLS.HTM Last edited by yukidomari; 18-03-2010 at 17:41.

19-03-2010, 22:35	#9
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Yes, I am, actually.. I've been looking into them since 2008 but really planning to take one home perhaps next winter or spring after our move. Well, you know how it is, I'm sure! Never too soon to research or look around for -just- the right pup and -just- the right breeder, though at this point I've pretty much settled on Marcy.. the rest is, well, all unforeseeable how this all will pan out. I've thought about import but to tell the truth I always feel the most comfortable with kennels I've had the chance to visit.. I don't think I will be going to Europe any time soon given Visa restrictions and all. Last edited by yukidomari; 19-03-2010 at 22:37.

28-02-2010, 17:33	#4
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Thanks so much for your input ~ I guess I am kind of "old school" when it comes to socializing vs immunity... my early mentors insisted exposing puppies early and sort of took the stance that if their immune system couldn't handle it, perhaps they shouldn't be part of the gene pool. Of course, this was with breeds like GSDs and Malinois who have higher numbers and a bigger gene pool... I also have conflicting input on vaccinations - some insist 2 week windows, others 3 and still others say every 4 weeks is best - the fewer shots, the better. I have decided to do every 2 and a half weeks - I am too afraid of stretching it all the way to 4. So Luna's vaccines are arriving in the mail early next week. Living in FL the risk of disease I think is perhaps higher than in other places as we do not have cold weather to kill off "bugs" and as a dog trainer, I really put any dog at risk as I am dealing with them all day. Usually, though, my students are healthy - luckily I don't work in a Vet's office anymore where taking care of sick dogs is the job and no matter how much you try to disinfect yourself, you are going to bring something home... I started spritzing myself with anti-parvo disinfectant before I come inside, but I still think there is risk... So she will get immune-boosting supplements, good food and I will be selective where I take her. I just want to make sure I do all I can to foster her confidence and boldness.

18-03-2010, 22:54	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Thank you so much for the information - it's greatly appreciated. We have been circumspect with both vaccinations and socialization - I am trying to maximize her exposure to the environment without risking her health. Tonight we are headed to a puppy kindergarten for some socialization with pups her own age and size. This weekend we have a local AKC show I will likely bring her to as well - I am showing my Malinois and have found shows to be excellent socialization opportunities. Which brother did you meet? Luna is a pistol - the most interactive puppy I have ever raised. I wouldn't say she is "sweet" - more like she is "spicy"...

19-03-2010, 03:01	#7
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	You're welcome! .. which brother? Well, Marcy called him 'puppy'.. He's the last pup she has left. A mouthy, cool little dude!

19-03-2010, 22:32	#8
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Too funny! I hope Marcy finds a good home for him - he would be a super SchH prospect I think - Luna LOVES SchH. Are you looking to get a Vlcak?

21-03-2010, 17:55	#11
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	Aww, Marcy, that was my favorite from your pictures! I get so jealous hearing about everyone's pups knowing I can't have one yet!

23-03-2010, 04:07	#12
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well they are definitely a handful! I have raised a ton of different breeds, and I can say, hands-down, Luna has challenged me the most. I am having to use all the tricks in my dog-training "bag"!!! She is an absolute pleasure and SOOO cute I can't possibly say anything negative. She is exactly what I think a vlcak should be - outgoing, bold, confident, social (within reason - she is not a Labrador), very "forward" and a SUPER communicator with other dogs. In fact, my friends and I want to film her to show people dog body language as hers is SO clear and exaggerated in comparison to other breeds. That said, I can't imagine a dog like her in the wrong home. It would be an absolute disaster! Vlcaks are much like my other beloved breed, the Belgian Malinois - in the wrong hands they are a weapon! On the flipside, there are German Shepherds like my girl Kiri or my collie - breeds I would trust even with an idiot. They are so smart and so forgiving. Now, the one thing I miss, having a vlcak, is the lack of breed specific stuff available to wear or show off! I guess I am going to have to make my own? And why aren't we on Europe's "working dog web"???

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode