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Old 28-12-2010, 17:47   #81
Tatti
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For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.

Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

And who now says but that is an old dog cant be an owner of a TWD.

My own dog Hogan sky is an carrier of DM and I will make sure he's never bread with an untested bitch.

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Old 28-12-2010, 18:09   #82
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Hi Tatti,
Just for exactness' of terminology sake, a Carrier (DM/N) can't get ill. An Affected (DM/DM) as Falco (and his brother Forrest here in Italy ) sadly indeed can.
Anyway... the more dogs we test the more we'll know about the spreading of the illness...
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Old 28-12-2010, 18:33   #83
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Hi Tatti,
Just for exactness' of terminology sake, a Carrier (DM/N) can't get ill. An Affected (DM/DM) as Falco (and his brother Forrest here in Italy ) sadly indeed can.
Ok sry i did wright it wrong, English isn't my favorite language
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Anyway... the more dog we test the more we'll know about the spreading of the illness...
I totally agree

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Old 28-12-2010, 19:11   #84
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And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him
Very wise words.
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Old 29-12-2010, 21:05   #85
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Very wise words.

I would say true, very wise and also farmerswisdom, and miss the point that is being made..specially we do not know what other diseases our dogs might carry i only see more reasons for testing and being open about those we do know about and being more carefull abou he combinations we make...

but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?
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Old 29-12-2010, 21:57   #86
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In the document Understanding and Applying ThE Genetic Test for Degenerative Myelopathy there is an interesting stat:

"For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM."
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Old 30-12-2010, 23:49   #87
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but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?
I suspect that our late Tina might have developed DM at the age of 13,5. She died at 14, but during the last few months she had problems with walking and they seemed non-orthopeadic. We X-rayed her and her bones and joints were in suprisingly good condition! Two independent vets said the symptoms looked as if coming from the nervous system. We haven't tested her for DM obviously, but when reading about the disease I realized several symptoms seemed familiar. We carried Tina up and down stairs in the last month but she was able to walk weakly and slowly until her death.

At the age of 13 she was running and jumping, but apparently suffered when walking upstairs.
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Old 30-12-2010, 23:56   #88
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I suspect that our late Tina might have developed DM at the age of 13,5. She died at 14, but during the last few months she had problems with walking and they seemed non-orthopeadic. We X-rayed her and her bones and joints were in suprisingly good condition! Two independent vets said the symptoms looked as if coming from the nervous system. We haven't tested her for DM obviously, but when reading about the disease I realized several symptoms seemed familiar. We carried Tina up and down stairs in the last month but she was able to walk weakly and slowly until her death.

At the age of 13 she was running and jumping, but apparently suffered when walking upstairs.
interesting! Was she used for breeding and has her offspring been tested? (if she was dm/dm her offspring would all be at least be carrier consequently)
*edit, not meant as to label any offspring, just cause i have seen dogs that suffer from the disease and have been put to sleep because of it at an unfair early age and since i first heard of it several yrs ago, the information and research has been intensified and new info seems to get out daily, i am very interested

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Old 31-12-2010, 01:32   #89
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With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?.
I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected" only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms... In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....


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For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.
Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.
Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...
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Old 31-12-2010, 01:52   #90
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Originally Posted by elf View Post
In the document Understanding and Applying ThE Genetic Test for Degenerative Myelopathy there is an interesting stat:

"For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM."
I think it is exactly what we can observe by our breed... Only small percentage gets ill.
What would be also interesting is the age when the 0.83% get ill...

=======
I'm not for ignoring the DM problem - because it is really important to make bigger reseach and to test as much dogs as possible... But the whole "DM panic" started by some breeders is really without sense.

Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...
So there must be also some kind of much more "dangerous" "illness" that DM...

At the moment some breeders went crazy for DM tests and there are already some which decided not to use DM-carriers but took "DM clear" dogs from... the "bad walking" lines.
So for sure their puppies will not have DM problems at the age of 10, 11, 12... 15 years. But it is very possible they get problems already at the age of 2 years.... (because of the hip problems which are not diagnosed now)...
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Old 31-12-2010, 01:54   #91
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interesting! Was she used for breeding
No, she wasn't. She had no pedigree nor breeding rights and we knew nothing about her origins. We found her as a puppy in a park http://wolfdog.org/eng/articles/1268.html
PS. When Tina fell ill, she had her blood tested several times and she had no traces of tumour or other cancer. Her detailed blood test results were always perfect or close to perfect.
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:30   #92
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I think it is exactly what we can observe by our breed... Only small percentage gets ill.
What would be also interesting is the age when the 0.83% get ill...

=======
I'm not for ignoring the DM problem - because it is really important to make bigger reseach and to test as much dogs as possible... But the whole "DM panic" started by some breeders is really without sense.

Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...
So there must be also some kind of much more "dangerous" "illness" that DM...

At the moment some breeders went crazy for DM tests and there are already some which decided not to use DM-carriers but took "DM clear" dogs from... the "bad walking" lines.
So for sure their puppies will not have DM problems at the age of 10, 11, 12... 15 years. But it is very possible they get problems already at the age of 2 years.... (because of the hip problems which are not diagnosed now)...
I think is important DM regarded as a disease and DM test result because we have some important scientific certainty, even if full knowledge of the disorder is still far, even if the risk and the incidence appears to be low.
Similarly, the panic does not make sense. But this panic can rule only where there is lack of knowledge, all you need to know for a clear and thorough knowledge of DM can be easily found. In Italy was held a meeting with Dr Gandini, a leading veterinary neurologists in Europe, which is contact and follows the staff of Professor Coates that has discovered the gene SOD1 and developed the test.

It states that there are more serious problems before considering the DM (and I'm not doubting that there are) talking about alleged problems of movement, in unspeakable blood lines, I find it not very scientific and serious.
This problem is a disease or a problem due to poor physical construction? What would be the dogs with? I'm always interested in health problems and all information that may contribute to genetic improvement of the breed.

Could you open a thread, and in addition to a serious research (as did Mijke for DM) about this problem?
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:53   #93
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
It is absolutely not true. The test for research purposes is available from 2008, to 2009 from commercial laboratories, the scientific articles with all the good practice was published in 2009. You can not talk about "long time"

the articles was send from Coates staff on December 2008,
The body to verify the validity of the content published in February 2009:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...97106.abstract

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20....full.pdf+html
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected"

only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms...

Dr Gandini said the test is not in use long enough to do any kind of estimate on the results. There is no certainty that the dog DM / DM develops symptoms, but there is no certainty that there are dogs DM / DM can not get sick. There are some reported cases of old dogs DM/DM without symptoms (but the official scientific publications do not mention), which are being studied. The only certainty is scientifically accepted that all dogs with genetic testing for DM with symptoms according to the official diagnostic protocol, and that were affected after the autopsy, were all DM / DM. Any other implications among the test and the development of the disease is currently under study even in races more monitored.

In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....




Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...
The fact that there is an agent for activating SOD1 is still a hypothesis under investigation, not a certainty. Talking to the SOD1 gene in a family is more active than others is not serious and scientific.

It 's more useful to consider that the probability of finding a recessive gene as homozygous (DM / DM) is directly proportional to the higher inbreeding coefficient.

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Old 31-12-2010, 12:01   #94
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It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness..
This is very likely what's happening, this is the case for many many other diseases or gen traits, i.e. genetic regulatory networks expressivity pattern.

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Originally Posted by z Peronówki
Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...
My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.

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Old 31-12-2010, 13:38   #95
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My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.
Very sorry about your dog, is it a CsV ? And how old is she now ?
Did it get worse whit age ?

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 31-12-2010, 14:09   #96
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On the dogs today that are Affected and ill, can one see anyhing that has any similarities ??? Like high COI % or Line ???

And NO names please !

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 31-12-2010, 15:11   #97
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It is absolutely not true. The test for research purposes is available from 2008, to 2009 from commercial laboratories, the scientific articles with all the good practice was published in 2009. You can not talk about "long time"
I meant it as for DNA tests
DNA testing is pretty new - the universities are just developing them... But it was possible to test DM already since several years. Since 2008 you have the "official" test. But before some laboratories made researches and I know polish breeders (not CzW breeders) which send samples to USA before 2008 to help to develop it...

2 years long nobody was interested in testing CzW for DM... Long time in the world of DNA tests...
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Old 31-12-2010, 15:45   #98
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I meant it as for DNA tests
DNA testing is pretty new - the universities are just developing them... But it was possible to test DM already since several years. Since 2008 you have the "official" test. But before some laboratories made researches and I know polish breeders (not CzW breeders) which send samples to USA before 2008 to help to develop it...

2 years long nobody was interested in testing CzW for DM... Long time in the world of DNA tests...
Test available form polish breeder from several years?? The test out of Uni Missouri is recent!

I know the possibility of test on end of 2009, i have made my research and i test my bitch on March of 2010. Many owner know the test from some mounth, although Mijke inform us on 2009.

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Old 31-12-2010, 16:09   #99
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Test available form polish breeder from several years?? The test out of Uni Missouri is recent!
Not the "official" tests!

Look - the cases of DM by dogs were known for many years... It was pretty known illness... It is why universities started to investigate how it is heritated... They asked for blood samples of healthy and ill dogs which helped them to prepare "official" tests....

Polish breeders send samples for the researches which were made before 2008......


It is like with dwarfs - some dogs were tested by the Dutch laboratory BEFORE the official test was "published"...

I hope now it is clear....
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Old 01-01-2011, 15:29   #100
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Yes is clear, but Dr Gandini say us different cronology about the first tests done for research (not ufficial) by Uni Missouri, outside of the first sample of dog on wich the research develop. But is not very important

Important is the fact that in their choices of breeding, aimed at combating a disease, a test can be considered valid only after all the necessary scientific availment, and then from 2009, which is a recent test. All Veterinay says than is new the possibility to select in breeding (with all scientific bases) SOD1 gene.
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