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Old 22-10-2008, 23:52   #1
krala
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Default electrical collars

Hi everybody!

I have started using a electrical collar recently on my dog (krala 13 months old). It really does work, but it really makes me feal bad for hurting the dog.
Are there any side efects to the use of the electrical collar? I am mostly worried by heart problems..

I should probably mentionn that I have bought the damn collar because I could no longer let the dog out of the leash. She attcked all female dogs in the park, never came or stoped when I called at her and one night she even attacked a man in the park. Not to mentionn that she almost got killed by sheep dogs as she was hunting all sorts of farm animals in the fields where we walk..
Now she gets to run free and when I call her, if she does not come I use the collar. It's painfull .. but very efficient.

Is this wrong?

Thanks..
Ioana
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Old 23-10-2008, 07:56   #2
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Hello Romania,
I think, it is wrong. You try repair your mistakes by electrical collar. 13 months old wolfdog is puppy. I think, you did some big mistake during your behavior. But it is not possible to see it (for us), because we can´t see your puppy..........I think, it is sad.
I think, electrical collar can be good for some big problem of ADULT dog, especially male. Not for your puppy. Maybe, you see, it helps you, but......For me is sad to read your question.
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Old 23-10-2008, 12:24   #3
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Not that I'm wise and full of knowledge, but maybe wolfdog isn't for you?
From what you have written I see that you can't socialize and even educate your dog.
Attacking dogs and men? Come on, go find as fast as you can some professional trainer or behaviorist before someone gets your wolfdog killed !
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Old 23-10-2008, 12:30   #4
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Hi Ioanna.

I found this article on short and long term effects of using shock collars very useful.

Cheers
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Old 23-10-2008, 14:02   #5
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Hmmmm

Stop using the collar, PLEASE

And attend on a dog course instead...and it is urgent, no time to lose !!!
Call the club today...

And I think you are to have the dog in lease for now...

Is this your first dog ??? and did you atend on a puppy course ???
And have you talkt to your Breeder about this problems ???
Maby she/he can help you, or take the dog back if you can not get this problem under control ???

Good Luck, regards / Mikael
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Old 23-10-2008, 19:24   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Hello Romania,
I think, it is wrong. You try repair your mistakes by electrical collar. 13 months old wolfdog is puppy. I think, you did some big mistake during your behavior. But it is not possible to see it (for us), because we can´t see your puppy..........I think, it is sad.
I think, electrical collar can be good for some big problem of ADULT dog, especially male. Not for your puppy. Maybe, you see, it helps you, but......For me is sad to read your question.
bye Hanka
Hanka talk well..Personally I think the electric collar is permissible only on n adult dog with serious problems, like a last resort, as an alternative to kill the dog!
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Old 23-10-2008, 20:08   #7
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wow..do I feel bad now..

Thanks for all your answers!
I can tell you that the electrical collar really was a last resort thing.
My dog had 2 trainers, the first at 5 months, she bit and thore his trousers, then the guy would not answer my phone calls. The second one at 11 months, she thore his t-shirt, the guy did not come anymore...
Since I have had her, we have been in the park with other dogs every day, she came everywhere with us, in the city center, on hollydays etc so she is very well socialized, but one day she was playing nicely with one female dog and the next she was attacking it..
She is incredible protective of me. Today she bit a person that aproached my friend. She would not stop when I called her but stoped when I used the collar...

I am certainly not using the collar to teach her dog tricks... But what am I to do when she bites someone ?! I am hoping that she will understand that she needs to listen to me and than stop using the thing. I have a friend that did just that..

But if anyone has some other ideas.. I am more than thankful for them..

ioana
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Old 23-10-2008, 22:02   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krala View Post
wow..do I feel bad now..

I am certainly not using the collar to teach her dog tricks... But what am I to do when she bites someone ?! I am hoping that she will understand that she needs to listen to me and than stop using the thing. I have a friend that did just that..

But if anyone has some other ideas.. I am more than thankful for them..

ioana
I think that the day it all turned arount she become leader of the pack.
using the collar vil therefore not help at all !!!

Train her in lease !!! And if she do not listen at all take her fore a wrestling match, but make sure to not hert her, after that you get her on the ground, sit on her steady, and tell her that you are the pack leader.

Important nr 1, when she gives up you pet her and tell her that she is good, to give her self to you, after about 1-2 minute you stand up and let the dog up ( on comand if posible)

Important nr 2, you will always have to win, otherwise it will get worse !!!

Important nr 3, you are the one to do this, not your trainer !!!

If it does not work do it again and again , until she understands.

And go a dog course to !!! they are to help you whit this if it is a good club...

Regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 23-10-2008 at 22:15.
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Old 24-10-2008, 01:47   #9
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Elletric collars commonly isn't used for training, but for correct some little imperfections at commands in a working dogs that will make official exams, like Schutzhund and IPO.
The dog may not fear your command because the shock, he must respect you and because this obey, he must see you as the leader of the pack.


Quote:
But what am I to do when she bites someone ?!
And what would you do if she really attack someone? coock her with the eletric collar? Eletric collar isn't painfull enought to stop an furious attack when you have no control of the dog and when the dogs really thinks that attack is needed.

Quote:
Are there any side efects to the use of the electrical collar? I am mostly worried by heart problems..
The eletric colla rmust cause only a strange fellin in the dog necks, isn't painfull but isn't good, that's why you must test the eletric collar in your neck BEFORE use it in the dog, in this way you will know how strong is the collar and if you need up or down the strenght of the shock.

Quote:
My dog had 2 trainers, the first at 5 months, she bit and thore his trousers, then the guy would not answer my phone calls. The second one at 11 months, she thore his t-shirt, the guy did not come anymore...
What good trainers you had find, they're only accustumate to traine lazy dogs basic commands?!
First of all, I don't think you will find easly a good trainer, but believe me, worst than it is find a good trainer that are able to traine a wolfdog or that have th eminimally good experience with the breed, principally in your country wich czW not seems to be a common breed.
That's why before you chose this breed, you must read and know that this is a difficult breed wich need a very experienced owner and be aware that you cannot count with the help of supposed proffessionals if you have behaviour problems with your dog, normally the breeder must be prepared to help in this case.

Quote:
She is incredible protective of me. Today she bit a person that aproached my friend.
Agressive reaction not ever means protective in corageous and guard way, but commonly a bad unthinkied reaction for fear and untrusth wich sometimes make us think in a corageous but reactive dog.

Quote:
I am hoping that she will understand that she needs to listen to me and than stop using the thing.
Maybe, if you're able to make her conect your command to the shock, but this is to much strong for a 13 months old puppie wich have no head and is only testing the leardership of the owner... this if she already not take your place as alpha because the lack of a good and strong leader in the moment.

but when you use eletric collar to training the dog like it some dogs can start to show a better resistence against the shock with the time, even stop to gives attention to it, it would be a really big problem if she be trained only with the eletric collar without respect you really. That means, you cannot be dependent of the eletric collar, or probably you and your dog will have future problems because the eletric collar and because it's bad use.

Please, first of all NOT leave she outleash even she be an educate girl wich respect you and wich you have full control, this surelly will avoid accidents and problems for you, you must take the leader place at your home, fight for leadership is almost a dispute to see who have hardest head, you or the dog? Surelly you must see more stubborn than your dog for win.

- Feed her 3 or 2 times per day, you put her food at the dish and call her, gave 5 minuts for her comes and if she not comes you take out the food and save it on a properlly place, only gaves food for her again in the next round, she can refuse eat for 3 or 5 days, not brake your hearth for it and continues, when she be really with hungry she will comes and eat when you call.

- Try go to long walks with her AT LEASH, if she start to pull you or try to path the direction you stop and only back walk when she acept stop, if she start to guide you simple go in the contrary direction even if you need pulling her at the direction you want.

- At house some dominant dogs like to lie down blocking the corridor or doors passage, if she do that you may not jump for divert of her, but take her out of this place for you pass.

- Before gives gifths to her you may charge little exercices for she win the gifth, like sit or down, only after she makes what you want you may gives the gift.

Never forgeth, leaders are stubborn, hard head and selfish, you must be too.

In a beauty day she is down sleeping at sofa, you want sit in this sofa, why not sit EXACTLY where she is sleeping, making her go to another place?
Stole her play at the moment that she is having funny?

This is an exemple that will depend of the dog reaction against you in this situation, you must be aware that some dogs growl and even try to gives one advertence bite in these moments, you cannot fear your dog, if she try do it you can have a more energetic reaction.

Please, contact the breeders and talk about your problems with the dog, maybe the breeder will be able to help you with his experience.

Hide your eletric collar and only takes it again when you have a really well trained dog and need it for put perfection in the comands before you go to a working trial with your dog... I think you wont need it with a CzW anymore.
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Last edited by Nebulosa; 24-10-2008 at 01:49.
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Old 24-10-2008, 09:35   #10
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Very, very well written. It should be made 'sticky' for everyone to read and understand.
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Old 29-09-2010, 17:05   #11
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Default well.. just from experience

Hello everybody,
I have come back to this post just to let everyone know what my experience was with the dog and the collar..
I have used the collar for about one month when going on walks. The first time I used it I really thought the damn thing wasn´t working because the dog just did not react. I was using the lowest level, but still .. no reaction. When I used the collar on my other dog, a carpathian sheperd mix, I did get a very clear reaction so I really think that the czw have a very different reaction to pain, which may be an issue if the dog is ill.
Anyway, the second day, she started to understand the idea and the hole process went very well, I used the stimuli lesser and lesser. After this first month , I did put the collar on krala a few more times , on and off , but did hardly ever actually use it. I have not used it this year.
I have to say that for an unexperienced owner like me with really few other options, including no really ¨professional¨ professional, it was a good sollution.
I have read about the bread before getting the dog, when we were inside the house she was very obediant, I could take food out of her mouth, moved her from the sofa without problems, she walked ok on a leash etc, but as soon as she was without the leash, she was totally out of control.
It is much better now, i have only used the collar to teach ¨come¨ and i can trust her now. it is true though that the collar alone is not an option, if the dog is not properly handled no amount of ¨electricity¨will stop it from chasing a rabbit, for instance..especially, as I have said they have amazing tollerence to pain!

There it is! i hope this helps someone
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Old 04-10-2010, 16:15   #12
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Ioana, wouldn't it be better to teach her to "come" with a positive reaction instead that with a punishment? O.o... I cannot believe she was happy to obey to you, and that she is happy now to obey to you O.o

Here in Italy Electrical collar IS NOT an option as it is Illegal. Luckily, I add!

I do not believe there was no other option to teach a CSW to come, even because I've seen other CSW coming back and I know no electical collar had been used.

I sincerely hope your experience does not inspire people to choose this way with CSW.

AND I sincerely hope that people will choose to go to training session, and the training is more for the owner than for the dog.
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Old 05-10-2010, 00:42   #13
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No tool is inherently bad. Misuse and abusing a dog with a tool is. A lot of countries in Europe make certain tools illegal - tools that used in the right hands, are humane and effective, yet other tools that are truly more damaging (such as a "choke" or "slip" collar) are just fine... but I digress.
What you need is a GOOD BEHAVIORIST and dog trainer (preferably in one person!) to assess why the dog is behaving a certain way (many bitches going in to their first heat become intolerant of other bitches in "their" territory) and how to address is WITHOUT making it WORSE.
Often using "punishment" to try to address aggressive behavior (especially if it is an instinctive behavior) will only make it escalate.
Sounds to me that she is a little resource-aggressive - a common issue, but needs to be addressed, and I would NEVER have her off-lead (as she cannot make an appropriate choice) and I would have her muzzled to prevent a serious bite. If she's already torn clothing and gone after people, you have a problem that can end up with someone in the hospital...
You need to learn dog language so you can "see" what she is telling you in order to prevent these problems from happening! Rather than cleaning up the mess, make sure it doesn't happen in the first place!
All the best...
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:43   #14
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You're right, Lunas mom, a tool is only a tool. But sincerely, as you say, I prefer trying to understand why the dog behaves in a certain way and then look for the solution than treating the symptom. And that's what electrical collar is needed for: it treats a symptom but does not solve the cause. And it leaves the owner of the pet with a doubt "will my dog behave well or not?".
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Old 22-10-2010, 09:50   #15
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We used electrical collar to tweak Raksha's coming when called.
Sometimes when the distance from the caller is too big and the object she wants to see is too desirable, she looks back at you, you can see her thinking pros and cons, and then she decides not to obey.
That's the moment when we used the collar: when she hears us clearly, knows very well the order, knows what we want from her - but also knows we are incapable to stop her at that moment and therefore decides it's safe to disobey.
We only had to use it several times and it worked like a charm.

We have a saying in Czech: When someone wants to beat up a dog, he will find a stick/club no matter what. It fits the discussion - a tool is always a tool, you can hurt your dog even with bare hands, if you want to. The whole thing depends on your judgement.

I believe that instead of demonizing electric collars, it would be better to tell people what these collars can do, and what these collars cannot do. Then we wouldn't have to see people using electric collars when trying to teach dog how to sit, or pressing the sting button whenever they are angry.
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Old 23-10-2010, 01:19   #16
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As I have said before ~ there are no bad "tools" just bad use of those tools. Electric collars have their place - though I do not use them on a regular basis, there have been dogs I have trained that have NEEDED such a tool. Dogs that are so "collar-" or "leash-wise" that they need to know that even off-lead their human has control.
Vlcaks are a breed that I can see are smart enough to know whether their handler can correct them or not. And I am sorry Clicker People, but sometimes even the highest-value food reward is NOT as attractive as doing the naughty thing they want to do.
And I am sorry - if I need to use an electric collar to make sure my vlcak doesn't dash out into traffic - I would rather use that than see my dog hit by a car.
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Old 23-10-2010, 08:59   #17
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Luna's mom - I'm sure you're aware but clicker training isn't just about high value food, although certainly often it is. It can be used with anything from toys, to the sleeve, to other behavior the dog finds self-rewarding.

And personally to prevent my dog from running out into the streets, I use a leash. Yes, that's a tool, but I also know that an electric stim from a e-collar won't stop some dogs from chasing prey into the streets, but a leash will.

To each his own.. I have used an e-collar before and I think for the regular person, you don't need training based on aversives to get what you want in a regular, everyday arsenal of easy, normal commands like "sit" "stay" "down" or "heel".

Like in this scenario as described by the original poster. ...I kind of don't understand why the OP chose to use an e-collar on her dog that chased other animals and bit people, instead of using a leash with muzzle, perhaps. It doesn't seem to me that a dog with a bite history would be easily broken of such behavior just simply with electric stim, and if so, if that would actually be right to now call the dog "safe in public" just because it has an e-collar on. I certainly wouldn't feel safe.

(Never mind, I just now read your earlier post and it seems like we are actually agreeing.. )

Of course, though, I know of situations where you might use an electric stim.. for example, on a hunting dog that needs to be off leash, or, rattlesnake avoidance training.

And I felt like I had to add: OP said that for an inexperienced owner, the e-collar was a good solution vs a professional trainer. I think this is the furthest from the truth you can get... :S

If a person uses an e-collar, said person should be MORE in tune with a dog and more experienced with different types of training and dog behavior than the average person. You can't mess up a dog with messed up positive reinforcement as badly as you can mess up a dog with messed up e-collar training!!

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Old 23-10-2010, 16:14   #18
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... here in England e collars are banned in Wales.... hopefully in the rest of the country soon.

..... a leash and muzzle combined with knowledgeable training should all that is required imo (for a pet dog)

e collars should not be available to the general public that have little understanding of training and behaviour...they are seen as a quick 'fix' that often masks the problem and does not solve it.

your dog is a 'teenager' do u remember what it was like to be one of them? testing,challenging, seeing how far you could push
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Old 26-10-2010, 12:37   #19
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errata corrige

e collars are not banned in Italy. It is just banned their abuse when causing ill-treatment to dogs...


just for love of truth XD...


I still don't like 'em...
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Old 16-11-2010, 16:25   #20
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There has been a dissertation at the UNi Hannover to evaluate the stress, the collars really provoke:
result: pinch collar are worse than electric collars!!!
link: http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissert...rliy_ws08.html
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