AKC lowering registration numbers for full recognition from FSS?

[draggar]

Is there anu truth to this? I'm heading over to AKC's site now to see if I can find it.

#3 FSS Guidelines. The Board discussed a Staff recommendation to amend the Foundation Stock Service Guidelines with regard to number of dogs with three-generation pedigrees that must be enrolled in order to request Miscellaneous class Status. Staff is recommending the enrollment requirement be lowered from a minimum of 300-400 dogs to a minimum of 150-200 dogs with complete three-generation pedigrees in the AKC Foundation Stock Service to be eligible to request Miscellaneous Class status once a Parent Club has been selected for the breed. This will be considered further at the February 2010 meeting.

[GalomyOak]

Correct!
http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_news.cfm

I think we are up to...8? Maybe more. One day, in the not too distant future. This is the second time in as many years that they have lowered the numbers. I guess if it weren't for the costs associated in training judges, they'd give it up completely. Interesting...

Marcy

[draggar]

Does the 8 include the litter?

[GalomyOak]

Yep - when I first registered Anthea and Roni, I asked some questions to the AKC about a few things...and was told mine were the only ones registered. So...my 4 adults and 4 puppies are the only ones (for now, I think) registered, unless someone else has since registered.

Is there a way to encourage CsV owners in the US to register their dogs? Even if they're just pets, they'd help the cause as it were. I think it'd be something for breeders selling pups to the US, to encourage AKC registration!

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Vicky

Is there a way to encourage CsV owners in the US to register their dogs? Even if they're just pets, they'd help the cause as it were. I think it'd be something for breeders selling pups to the US, to encourage AKC registration!

That will bring up the age old "quality vs. quantity" debate. I'm sure the quality now is still very high considering the low numbers and control the ethical people have over the breed.

Don't breeders usually register their litters with the AKC?

I also spoke to Fred Lanting about being a vlcak judge in UKC - did he contact you Marcy? He might be a little "gruff" - don't let that scare you, he really is a nice guy.

How many vlcaks are registered with the UKC here in the USA?

Originally Posted by draggar

That will bring up the age old "quality vs. quantity" debate. I'm sure the quality now is still very high considering the low numbers and control the ethical people have over the breed.

If you're going to bring that up in regards to registration, why not bring up the "work vs. show" debate as well? The thing of it is, the AKC is and always will be just a registry. However, it brings with it a lot of validity in the public eye to a breed. It's up to the (future) national breed club to set standards for breeding and where the breed is headed. Honestly, I'm a bit torn in regards to registration just because of the fact you mentioned and the fact that AKC registration draws a lot of the "show" crowd. However, with a breed that is so controversial in a lot of minds, I think full AKC registration should be a goal and at this point in time (i.e. before full registration, with a limited amount of breeders allowing their dogs into the US) the more registration the better until the numbers are up. I mean, chances are good that the dogs being imported are being registered with the FCI anyway, all you would need (if I remember right) is the dog to be in any foreign registry along with at least a 3 generation pedigree, so it shouldn't take too much work (as I understand it) to get an imported dog registered. Marcy, if I'm off, you can correct me.


hahaha I know I'm going back & forth on the subject, but the more I'm writing this out and thinking about it, now, I guess the more important thing than registration would be the forming of a breed club. Maybe more than encouraging people to register with the AKC, breeders should encourage owners to come here and network with OTHER owners in the US! See, it helps to think things out!

[draggar]

Show vs. work - you bring up a great question. Many breeds you can tell just by looking show dogs vs. working dogs. =IMO it's sad to see dogs just bred for beauty (I think the GSD breed has been damaged so much I consider it abuse in many cases).

Maybe the CsVCA should incorperate into the charter working ability / ethic? It's up to the CsVCA to define the standard (not AKC) and promote working ability. I hear too often from people "well, I'm no one to change the standard so why argue the point?". Well, we ARE the CsVCA and the future of it (Marcy, Vicky, myself, and our partners in crime).

Marcy has put up a site for the club already:
http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/

I think it's time to make the club official. I'm not sure about the registration process (registering it as a not for profit organization, etc.) but maybe we could tap my wife (Sara) about this - she's formed a club before (DOTE) so we can check with her to see what is involved as well as the costs (I don't know if DOTE was just for the state (FL) or national, though). If the costs are too high, then we can wait but we should get it done before someone else jumps in and does it (I think this happened to the shiloh shepherd community and look at what's going on with them now).

I know more costs = we'd have to charge dues but we could charge just enough to cover costs - maybe a little extra for other equipment we may need (meet the breed booth at Eukanuba, funds for rescue, etc..).

I think Marcy has an email list of the vlcak owners in the US (from the rescue email you sent out the other day - did you hear anything back from that?). Maybe we should get them involved and maybe even get a forum up for CsVCA (on Marcy's site?). While vBulliten is very nice (what this site uses) it is expensive - $195 a year for the basic package, $285 for the delux (includes a blog, CMS etc..), there are free options (I've been using SMF on a lot of my sites and it is very nice - not as much is included as vBulliten but it's very good for a free one). I could run the forum if needed.

I've also debating registering vlcakrescue.com before a squatter gets it (I may just go ahead with that today anyway). I know there is no serious need for a site now but I could point it to the csvca site.

Edit: I just registered vlcakrescue.com and vlcakrescue.org (.org domains seem to be more "legit" with uses like this so I'm sure a lot of people will type that in, too).

[GalomyOak]

To try to answer a few questions, in no particular order...

Vicky - I am pretty sure some of the current owners will register their dogs in time. For others, it's a personal choice not too - there are many reasons out there. I respect the personal decisions of others in this situation, even if it means waiting a bit longer. Thus far, we have been quite blessed in the owners that are in the US, minus one or two...really good folks, with good intentions. Our breed will always be controversial, until some kind of "hero" story comes out - and then they will become popular, and trouble will start. Haha - I was approached in January by a casting agent for Animal Planet to be on some documentary about UKC show dogs (Show Pooches) - but had to kindly decline: I am fiercely private, and generally humble - but also didn't want that kind of exposure for the breed at this junction. For the casual investigator (such as the dog warden that showed up at my house, when my hillbilly neighbor - whose GSDs had attacked my dogs while I had them on lead in the road - reported that I was breeding hybrids - after I reported his dogs), the FSS papers with their big AKC logo is usually plenty. He told me they were the coolest thing he'd ever seen, and good luck with the breeding - and gave my neighbor an official warning.

Ed - Breeders in Europe register their litters through country breed clubs, associated with the FCI. The puppy in your home is from the first US litter, it is registered with the AKC/FSS. I can't speak for other upcoming breeders here, but assume they will register their litters. Establishing a club involves having active, willing participants. We have a limited number of households that have been ready to jump in, the tide is slowly turning. In the correspondance I have had with people, many were not at a point where they wanted to be in a club involved with AKC politics, governing body, dues, etc., and more preferred an informal group of sorts. Certainly don't think they would be interested in being bossed around by a few gung-ho people like us, and wouldn't want to - they are also people I consider good friends. Without those members, we are a pretty tiny group...I think we risk more by alienating owners at this point. We don't have any costs right now, other than the website - that is taken care of for at least 2 years by a great owner in LA and me, if someone would like to contribute a blog, I'd certainly be fine with attempting to add that. As far as I know, the same 8 dogs registered with the AKC are the only ones registered with UKC - mine are the only ones that appear in the Top 10, anyways. When I revised the standard with Kathy Lorentzen in 2008, they were the only ones showing. I'm dealing with some pretty heavy personal stuff at the moment, so even I will be/have been a bit "distracted" for a little while with regards to the club...really looking forward to July though! I did hear from Fred Lanting, still need to respond - as I said, a lot going on. I really respect his work, and think it is awesome he is on board.

I would entirely be for establishing a voting system, and making some decisions on code of ethics, etc. I have gotten a ton of responses to my email (some of those are husband/wife seperate accounts, 3 disconnected accounts, and also owners in Canada that are interested in our development, as well - so the numbers aren't too huge.) Will respond this weekend.

Happy Friday!
Marcy

[soniakanavle]

Hello, I have some questions regarding registration...

I live in the US and I have a five year old male CsV [Loki von Wolfen] that I would like to register with the AKC/FSS and UKC [I could add 1 number to the list! ] but I have a problem which, apparenty, is I imported him from Canada, not Europe and since the Canadian Kennel Club doesn't accept our CsV as a breed yet, [and I've heard has no intention to do so anytime soon] I'm not able to submit a three generation pedigree/registration number since the CKC is the only registry in Canada that both the AKC/UKC accept. I wrote to the breeder in Quebec, and he said he gave up on the CKC and is hoping to register the litter [finally] with the 'Canine Federation of Canada' [CFC] which so far only has five breeds on its list, though he said they are adding 17 more this year, CsV included. It is not affiliated with the CKC or the FCI though and I have no idea if the AKC will accept it as a worthy foreign registry....

Another thing I see being a hurdle is I only co-own my dog, with the co-owner being the breeder in Quebec. Can I register a dog in the US when it is still technically co-owned by a foreigner??

Anyone know anything about any of this?? Any help would be appreciated since if I'm going to help out with a US breed club I'd like to have a legal canine citizen!!

Thanks! ~Sonia and Loki

[soniakanavle]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Correct!
http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_news.cfm]

P.S. "Czechoslovakian Valak" ??? I wonder what breed that is??

[I hope the AKC gets it's paperwork/spellcheck right before making the CsV an official registrable breed.]

[draggar]

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

I live in the US and I have a five year old male CsV [Loki von Wolfen] that I would like to register with the AKC/FSS and UKC [I could add 1 number to the list! ] but I have a problem which, apparenty, is I imported him from Canada, not Europe and since the Canadian Kennel Club doesn't accept our CsV as a breed yet, [and I've heard has no intention to do so anytime soon] I'm not able to submit a three generation pedigree/registration number since the CKC is the only registry in Canada that both the AKC/UKC accept. I wrote to the breeder in Quebec, and he said he gave up on the CKC and is hoping to register the litter [finally] with the 'Canine Federation of Canada' [CFC] which so far only has five breeds on its list, though he said they are adding 17 more this year, CsV included. It is not affiliated with the CKC or the FCI though and I have no idea if the AKC will accept it as a worthy foreign registry....

UKC is irrelevant if Canada recognizes it or not, that's only the CKC. If they're not registered with the UKC then you might have a hard time registerig them with the AKC.

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

P.S. "Czechoslovakian Valak" ??? I wonder what breed that is??

[I hope the AKC gets it's paperwork/spellcheck right before making the CsV an official registrable breed.]

I don't think vlcak is in any English speaking spell checker, maybe they need to add it to theirs! But, it's just on that page. On the breed list it is spelled correctly, vlcak.

Marcy - is breeding wolf hybrids illegal? (I didn't know that - or why else would have have called the police on you?). Since the officer was impressed with the breed maybe they have a future of being a small part of the police canine community - Luna sure has the temperament right now for it!

As for the hero story - don't forget Luna is going to be a service dog for Sara, she's already being conditioned for this. While it's no Lassie saving Timmy from a burning building (wait, wasn't that Lad and Wolf actually?) it's a start. Just look at the positive press Sara and Zorro got for Westminster / him being her own service dog.

As for the blog, I've started on on my site and I'll try to keep it running but I always have projects going on with the web front (I just recently bought some "year" domains and I plan on putting up some historical sites, plus over a dozen dog breed domains), but I'll try to keep vlcak to the top of the list. The CMS (Joomla) is getting easier to use.

Marcy - do you own the domain for the CsVCA club (czechoslovakianvlcak.org)? The WhoIs is private but your name is listed (but that doesn't mean anything).

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

T I did hear from Fred Lanting, still need to respond - as I said, a lot going on. I really respect his work, and think it is awesome he is on board.

OK. I just shot him an email to let him know that you did receive his email just hasn't been able to respond yet (bust with home, work, puppies, etc..). Next time he is down here I'll be sure to introduce him to Luna (but as far as I know there are no plans for a Sieger show anytime soon).

[GalomyOak]

AKC does not recognize UKC as a registry (from the beginning, they were rivals - AKC focused on conformation, UKC on working potential). UKC also recognizes breeds that AKC (and in some cases, FCI) does not recognize - the American Pitbull Terrier being a big one, as well as the White GSD (or Berger Blanc Suisse). However, UKC recognizes pedigrees from AKC. Sonia, not quite sure what the answer to your dilemma is, at least for the AKC. It might be worth checking with the FCI/kennel club in Puerto Rico - as they are a US territory, they will register dogs for the US - since Flint's parents were both FCI, maybe that is a possibility? Once FCI, he could register with AKC. Co-ownership should be no problem, since Flint resides in the US, as long as Daniel agrees. As for UKC...something might be possible there, let me do some investigating. Didn't Daniel title his female in Canada? Or was that through CFC...

Another possibility is that both registries might look to pedigrees recognized by the US breed club (with time)...but we have to consider what other cans of worms that might open in the US in the long run (i.e - mixed breeds, acceptance of CSVs without pedigrees from questionable breedings, etc.)

Forgot to mention this in the last post - when I asked FSS about the requirements for AKC to recognize/list a breed club on their website, and as part of their previous requirements for performance/companion events, they said they needed contact information for all members. That is about where I left off in 2008 - several people didn't feel comfortable handing over their info to AKC (who clearly uses it for marketing, as well), and I certainly was not about to jump that boundary. But now that we are gaining a bit of momentum...maybe we have some "sacrificial" owners/fanciers who don't mind their info being listed.

Take the time to look at websites for some of the other FSS breeds, particularly the ones with smaller numbers. They kind of give you an idea of where our next steps might lead. One breed I have really looked up to and modeled after is the Berger Picard (Picardy Shepherd - remember the movie "Because of Winn-Dixie?"). Their parent club is also based out of VA - really cool people, with similar goals and expectations - fun to hang out with at the UKC shows on this side of the country too!

It is illegal to own or breed "hybrids" in many states, others leave governance to individual towns/cities. In my county, you must have special permits (lots of hoop-jumping) to own any type of dangerous/wild animal - special insurance must be obtained, enclosures, etc. That is very common, and probably the norm in most places that don't have an outright ban. It's why I wanted our name converted back to Vlcak. Wolfdog, in our language in the US, has too many conatations. I always stick with the HSUS F5 ideaology, and of course, having pedigrees is a big fallback, too. And then: PR, PR, PR!!! How we present the breed here will determine it's fate in the US - good publicity is always good, of course. But at the same time, we don't want people fantacizing/rationalizing about the breed anymore than they already do. The old adage: They aren't for everyone!

We used to be Ceskoslovensky VLACK with UKC for a long time (wish we could have kept the Ceskoslovensky part...thanks AKC)- I think I own the only championed VLACK in the whole world (according to my certificate and pedigree).

Marcy

[soniakanavle]

Thanks for all the info Marcy.
It's guess it's really not that big of a deal to register him here, since I'm not going to show/compete with him, I just thought it would be good to have him in the FSS for records of the first CsV's in the US. Daniel promised to get me his CFC pedigree this year so that will be good, [and yes, Shetan was titled through the CFC, he gave up on CKC completely.] As far as I could tell UKC also only would accept the CKC, so it doesn't look too good for there either.

And you brought up a good topic I was wondering about, why the breed is called 'Czechoslovakian Vlack' here?? It makes us Americans seem so stupid [as always ] that we're too scared to have the word 'wolf' in any breeds name [even though every one of 'man's best friend' has wolf in them somewhere down the line] but we still want to be able to pronounce the name so we can't have 'Ceskoslovensky'. So stupid. Why not have the German Schäferhund?? Or 'Dog de Bordeau' I think we should either keep the original breed name or all in english, not a mix.

I would prefer Ceskoslovensky Vlack myself.

[yukidomari]

I'm torn on whether I want the AKC to fully recognize the CSV, too.

With recognition you do get the show crowd but worse than that, the publicity so that your dog owner who are not equipped to own Chihuahuas would also like to own a CSV.

It would be nice if a strong breed club could control this, but the AKC has been known to do things like, encourage a breed club split and then take as the 'official breed club' another club.

See Cavalier King Charles Spaniel's 2 clubs - The parent club repeatedly declined AKC's invite to join, so AKC picked as the 'parent' club, a breakaway club and recognized the breed anyway. This worries me as obviously the AKC can also choose a club that has its ethics and interests elsewhere (show lines only, less stringent rules, etc).

The AKC makes its money off of litter registration.. it has even run ads with Hunte Corp, an infamous puppy mill broker here in the USA. Thousands of Hunte's puppies in pet stores are implicitly endorsed by the AKC because they are registered.. and you know for the average pet owner, 'AKC' is obviously a stamp of quality. AKC KNOWS this and remains silent. There are other breed clubs in which you could report this type of activity.. not have the breed club itself do this..

For that reason while I agree it lends legitimacy, there are so many things about the AKC that is just not commendable. It's only a registry but its influence and power can't be taken lightly.

I know this is a CSV forum but owners of 'real' working dogs - dogs still actively used for work - like the Catahoula Leopard Dog and the Russian Ovcharka - people with those dogs, and I know quite a few, felt like crying when they heard that the AKC wanted to recognize it.

In my humble opinion getting a breed INTO the AKC is the easier part than staying out of the AKC.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

The AKC makes its money off of litter registration.. it has even run ads with Hunte Corp, an infamous puppy mill broker here in the USA. Thousands of Hunte's puppies in pet stores are implicitly endorsed by the AKC because they are registered.. and you know for the average pet owner, 'AKC' is obviously a stamp of quality. AKC KNOWS this and remains silent. There are other breed clubs in which you could report this type of activity.. not have the breed club itself do this..

For that reason while I agree it lends legitimacy, there are so many things about the AKC that is just not commendable. It's only a registry but its influence and power can't be taken lightly.

There are a lot of issues with getting full recognition with the AKC (plus you bring up a great point about puppy mills etc.. - especially with their (recently removed) "Register 10 litters, get the 11th for $1" (roughly between October of 2009 and June of 2010).

Don't worry - I have several issues with the AKC (go look up the real reason why Fred Lanting was fired / quit as an AKC judge). I'm not here to push one way or the other (which is why you may see me playing devil's advocate a lot). I know Luna will never see the inside of an AKC conformation ring and I'm fine with that but I am happy to see that she will be able to compete in obedience, tracking, herding, and whatever else she seems to enjoy. (I'd be happier if she liked to cuddle, though!).

[AMERICANI]

I am in a tough spot as well. A large number of medical issues link back to AKC policies and requirements. However, as in Marcy's case, when something happens and the dog warden shows up at your door, what else do we have to present as legitimate American documentation? This worries me. Next, I am still in Italy. Do my dogs need to be on American soil to register?

[draggar]

We've never had a dog warden / animal control come to our home unless we called them.

As for AKC registration - the advantages of this is that you'll be able to show your dog in AKC events. CsVs are in the "foundation stock services" meaning they can be shown in any event except conformation (beauty contest). We can compete (and obtain titles) in agility, herding, working sport, obedience, etc..

If you don't plan on coming to the USA and competing in these events, then there is no need to.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

I am in a tough spot as well. A large number of medical issues link back to AKC policies and requirements. However, as in Marcy's case, when something happens and the dog warden shows up at your door, what else do we have to present as legitimate American documentation? This worries me. Next, I am still in Italy. Do my dogs need to be on American soil to register?

Haha, technically, I did call the dog warden...and pissed the neighbor off, so he sought revenge... FSS papers have a big AKC logo on them, they are enough. Jason, when overseas for military, do you have a US residence as well? If so, I am 99% sure AKC will accept that. If not, they might still accept it, most agencies make exceptions for military.

[AMERICANI]

OH, so as long as we stay FSS and not fully AKC accepted, a lot of the mentioned problems won't matter?? I am coming back soon, and I do intend on competing! I am still waiting on Soselo's (Garm's) and Elsa's FCI pedigrees, so it may be a while... Thank you all. Jason