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Old 21-03-2010, 21:50   #21
AMERICANI
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OH, so as long as we stay FSS and not fully AKC accepted, a lot of the mentioned problems won't matter?? I am coming back soon, and I do intend on competing! I am still waiting on Soselo's and Elsa's FCI pedigrees, so it may be a while... Thank you all. Jason
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Old 21-03-2010, 21:52   #22
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oh the redundancy.... You cant delete posts LOL

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Old 24-03-2010, 14:15   #23
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Due to two recent realizations that makes AKC look like they support puppy mills, I see no need to rush to get our breed fully recognizerd by AKC.

IMO now, AKC papers are as reliable as APRI (well, at least with AKC we know it's a dog).

We should push for UKC and maybe even get a better presence with UKC here in the US. I know UKC isn't perfect but they're the lesser of the evils out there. Maybe we could even have shows similar to Sieger style shows with GSDs.
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Old 24-03-2010, 15:25   #24
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Due to two recent realizations that makes AKC look like they support puppy mills, I see no need to rush to get our breed fully recognizerd by AKC.

IMO now, AKC papers are as reliable as APRI (well, at least with AKC we know it's a dog).

We should push for UKC and maybe even get a better presence with UKC here in the US. I know UKC isn't perfect but they're the lesser of the evils out there. Maybe we could even have shows similar to Sieger style shows with GSDs.
I like the UKC - not perfect, as you say.. but I like that it seems to be less of a popularity contest in recognizing breeds and the multitude of working titles available.

Does UKC recognition alone not count for anything? Last I checked, most people didn't know the difference between the AKC or the Continental KC..
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Old 24-03-2010, 15:37   #25
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True, most people here (in the US) don't know the difference. I think UKC is a bit stricter with their registration requirements (at least I can't register my collie as a terv in UKC).

But, ACK registration allows you to get many working titles, too (is registration required to get them? I know CGC and STAR are not required to be registered).

Does UKC have working titles, too?

I think the dog's owners have to be members of either USA or DVG to get that group's respective schutzhund titles, though.
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Old 24-03-2010, 15:45   #26
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Does UKC have working titles, too?
Oh for SURE!!! The UKC is known as the 'working' kennel club..There are a million working titles. Last time I looked at one of our dog's UKC pedigree, there was a list of what the title abbreviations meant.. there was a whole gigantic long list. Here are a few:

Hunting - Treeing, baying, etc etc, Dock Jumping, Conformation, Agility, Obedience.. when I get home I can check my list again. There were numerous titles within the basic categories.


I know the AKC recently opened up titles to all dogs - even mixes - save conformation. So no, you do not have to be registered.

EDIT:

From the UKC site:

The programs at UKC include Obedience Trials, Agility Trials, Weight Pull Events, Terrier Races, Dock Jumping Events, Total Junior Program, Dog Sports (including Family Obedience), Coonhound Field Trials, Water Races, Nite Hunts and Bench Shows, Hunt Tests for retrieving breeds, Pointing Dog Events, Beagle Events (including Hunts and Bench Shows, and Cur and Feist Squirrel and Coon Events and Bench Shows.

Rounding out the 'Total Dog' package, UKC Conformation Events are among our largest growing events. UKC dog shows are family events designed by and for the breeder-owner-handler. Professional Handlers are not eligible to exhibit dogs for others at UKC Conformation Events. At UKC dog shows, the emphasis is on the DOG, not the SHOW.

Part of our mission is to have events where all dogs can compete. In addition to our purebred dog registry, United Kennel Club offers a Limited Privilege program. The Limited Privilege is open to all dogs that are spayed/neutered. This includes mixed breed dogs, purebred dogs of unknown pedigree, and purebred dogs with disqualifying faults as described in the UKC breed standards. The programs open to Limited Privilege dogs are Obedience Trials, Weight Pulls, Agility Trials, Total Junior Program and Dog Sports (including Family Obedience).

And lastly, I know that in the United Schutzhund Club of America (the largest org in the US) also accepts mixes to compete, so based on that I would venture to say your dog does not have to be KC registered.

Last edited by yukidomari; 24-03-2010 at 15:53.
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Old 24-03-2010, 16:17   #27
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The biggest thing with AKC recognition is that it is the only US club that FCI reciprocates with. As an owner, this means little. It has a slightly different meaning for breeders. FCI doesn't recognize the FSS. I had several inquiries from Mexico and South America (all FCI countries) about puppies - for these countries, it means if they imported a CSV that was American bred, they couldn't register it. I do believe there is a roundabout way to register through the Puerto Rican Kennel Club (FCI), so maybe that would be a possibility.

Other than that...UKC offers more working titles (no tracking though, grrr), and they are generally more challenging. No professional handlers - only owners/breeders are supposed to handle, so not quite as much politics. AKC is an outdated system that is not responsive or effective in meeting the changes that have evolved in cynology - it's faced bankruptcy several times.

As for AKC accuracy, this is one of my favorite clauses from the FSS FAQ page:

Q: Do I need import papers to record my foreign-born rare breed?

If your foreign-born rare breed is registered with an acceptable foreign registry, the registry papers, your three-generation pedigree and the completed FSS® application with two photos of the dog should be forwarded to the AKC with the appropriate fee for review.

Dogs with two-generation pedigrees, one-generation pedigrees or names of sire and dam only, are eligible for enrollment in FSS® as the foundation stock of future generations.


Does this mean no pedigree?

Marcy
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Old 24-03-2010, 16:21   #28
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Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
The biggest thing with AKC recognition is that it is the only US club that FCI reciprocates with. As an owner, this means little. It has a slightly different meaning for breeders. FCI doesn't recognize the FSS. I had several inquiries from Mexico and South America (all FCI countries) about puppies - for these countries, it means if they imported a CSV that was American bred, they couldn't register it. I do believe there is a roundabout way to register through the Puerto Rican Kennel Club (FCI), so maybe that would be a possibility.
If you keep up with the UKC registration that shouldn't be an issue?
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Old 24-03-2010, 16:27   #29
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The AKC and FCI have a tacit recognition of each other, but the AKC is not a member of the FCI. I wonder if this recognition could be extended to the UKC.. it only makes sense to me.. the UKC recognizes many more breeds as the FCI confederation does.

The FSS policies seem pretty much like an open-stud book policy. Which.. I guess for breeds in foundation may be OK, but it's odd when it applies to ANY breed not yet recognized by the AKC but the FSS instead .. including very old breeds with hundreds of years of history.
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Old 24-03-2010, 17:14   #30
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So then the question is, are the vlcaks here in the USA registered with UKC (Marcy?) and if not, can we get them? I'm sure it's not too far out that UKC won't accept the registration, maybe even if we need to register the parents first and then the puppies?
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Old 24-03-2010, 17:17   #31
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Originally Posted by yukidomari View Post
The AKC and FCI have a tacit recognition of each other, but the AKC is not a member of the FCI. I wonder if this recognition could be extended to the UKC.. it only makes sense to me.. the UKC recognizes many more breeds as the FCI confederation does.

The FSS policies seem pretty much like an open-stud book policy. Which.. I guess for breeds in foundation may be OK, but it's odd when it applies to ANY breed not yet recognized by the AKC but the FSS instead .. including very old breeds with hundreds of years of history.
Not so simple, and I am pretty sure other people have asked before. Neither AKC nor FCI recognize UKC. UKC is a private organization, whereas AKC is non-profit, I think it probably also has to do with protocal in judging and recognition, and of course politics. Here is the letter stating reciprocation between the registries (the KC in UK and CKC in Canada have almost identical letters).

Line 2 & 3 in the first page are of interest in this matter.

http://fci.be/uploaded_files/Letter%...C_16072008.pdf
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Old 24-03-2010, 17:21   #32
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So then the question is, are the vlcaks here in the USA registered with UKC (Marcy?) and if not, can we get them? I'm sure it's not too far out that UKC won't accept the registration, maybe even if we need to register the parents first and then the puppies?
Check with Sara, your UKC papers should have arrived for her to sign in the mail...if not, they should be there any day. Everybody is all registered, and parents championed. Check my note on Facebook from last night too...
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Old 24-03-2010, 17:30   #33
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Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
Not so simple, and I am pretty sure other people have asked before. Neither AKC nor FCI recognize UKC. UKC is a private organization, whereas AKC is non-profit, I think it probably also has to do with protocal in judging and recognition, and of course politics. Here is the letter stating reciprocation between the registries (the KC in UK and CKC in Canada have almost identical letters).

Line 2 & 3 in the first page are of interest in this matter.

http://fci.be/uploaded_files/Letter%...C_16072008.pdf
I've read that letter before, but rereading it is interesting.. point 3 says.

"No dog born in the USA, belonging to breeds recognised by the AKC, ill be registered by an FCI member registry unless the dog has been registered in the FCI-recognised registry in the United States. It is up to the FCI to decide about the registration of dogs born in the USA belonging to breeds not recognised by the AKC."

So even if the dogs remain not wholly recognised by the AKC, there is some way of FCI registration, right?

EDIT - Congrats on the placement Marcy!

Last edited by yukidomari; 24-03-2010 at 17:35.
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Old 24-03-2010, 17:47   #34
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Check with Sara, your UKC papers should have arrived for her to sign in the mail...if not, they should be there any day. Everybody is all registered, and parents championed. Check my note on Facebook from last night too...
OK, I was just curious (I wasn't sure where / how they were registered). Sara handles all that, I just handle the forced cuddling.

Good to know we can show her UKC - maybe we can talk to some other people in the area and get some UKC shows going - we have one here once every 1-3 years.
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