In season...

[Karin]

Hi Philipe,
Of course we are loosing some natural aspects of the breed. But I don't
find important how often our females are in heat. There are some worse
things than this one is. We can talk about exterier for example. I mean
proportions of our dogs. Remember these dogs should be just similar to
wolfes. Creatiors of the breed couldn't take of the wollf what they liked
even they were trying to do so :-) and the rest of german shepard. But when
I train my Brenna I can still find many wolfes manners (((- ; And I think
the wolfblood will be flowing through our fingers and disappearing in the
future. What we want to have in our homes more the wolf or a dog?.

[Philippe]

Hi, all,

I'm often asked by people about the female CsV heat : number of cycle per
year, spacing, duration, start...

It was my understanding that, being a primitive breed, CsV females react
like she-wolves, one heat per year... but it seems some females are 'in
season' twice a year!!!

In another hand, I was convinced litters are due at the end of
winter/beginning of spring... and saw CsV litters born between January and
December!!!???

Are we losing some parts of the primitive side of the breed or what? If so,
what about working abilities (and standard) after 10, 20, 50 or 100 years?

Any opinion and/or comment is welcome!

Best regards

Philippe

[Zoli]

Does your wolfdog live indoors?

[Philippe]

Hi, Zoltan,

No, all my dogs are living outdoor... My 3 CsV females, Jola, Sonia and
Sophia, are actually in season... Jola have already had puppies, and had
always been in heat in October/November...

Philippe

[Tina]

Are we losing some parts of the primitive side of the breed or what? If so,
what about working abilities (and standard) after 10, 20, 50 or 100 years?
Any opinion and/or comment is welcome!

From my decades of experience I can assure you that the further away from the
"wolf" you go, the more "dog" like your progeny will become. This said ..
however, with proper planning you can still retain the "wolf traits" that you
admire so much, like the intelligence
Look how far the German Shepherd went before it started to fall apart .. and
WHY did it change? I can assure you that my breed has retained many of the
same qualities you could easily see in the GSD 40-50 years ago, but have to
look very hard to find today ;(
If you have a strong club of educated <and fully dedicated> breeders, this
beautiful dog will still look & act the way you want him to 100 years from
now

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Dear Philippe,

I just read in some literature I can´t remember (maybe Dog breeding 2000 from
Professor Helmut Wachtel, Austria, maby something by Trumler)that very many wolfe
hybrids tend to get their litters earlier then wolfes in Dezember, January.
In wolfes the social interaction in the pack is essential for spermproduction of
the males and for getting in heat of the females. Even when our alpha-female
normaly gets in heat every eight month, she normaly has a short heat in between
without a ovulation when our Irish wolfhound bitch gets in heat before her (she
follows the normal 6 month terminal of housdogs) and I know that it is a big
problem in breeding csw-bitches that live without a male ore that are dominated
by another female, because they don´t get to ovulation in the normal time ore
they interrupt their heat bevore and start all over again later. So even if they
don´t follow wolfe´s cycles they are a lot different to normal dogs.
I don´t think the whole problem has anything to do with training abilities.

Best regards Ina

[Vaiva]

Didn't want to start a new topic, so I am writting here. As far as I know it is difficult enought to find out when exactly to mate a female wolfdog Do you use progesteron researches? Or just know exactly the day when to mate your females?

If it is not a top secret, of course

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

It is very easy with 3 of our females with one it´s a little more difficult. When we have to go far to the stud I use Progesteron-Tests to find the optimum day.

Ina

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

It is very easy with 3 of our females with one it´s a little more difficult. When we have to go far to the stud I use Progesteron-Tests to find the optimum day.

Ina

Ok, and what marks do you consider to be allready the right ones? Same as usual dogs?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Yes the same.

[saschia]

Hi, I am doing progesteron tests right now with Frei, as we should travel quite far, so I hope it will help. Of course I am also watching her behavior and it seems to correlate.

I was just telling my friend that I would really like some research on hormonal changes in bitches, meaning day-to day changes, oscillation (Frei went from 1.72 to 1.15 in 3 days and then to 2.39 in another 3) etc. But that would require some research grant (having test every 3rd day is quite a lot for me), otherwise it is pretty fast, takes less than 2 hours.
I found a paper where they have studied captive wolves (both kenneled and roaming) and measured their progress through estrus, but they had quite a long spacing between measurement of the same bitch due to stress probably. But they found out that proestrus is cca 2x as long as in dogs, while estrus and gravidity is the same and also hormonal levels are the same.

[saschia]

I have another question regarding heat - so the length of proestrus is 15.7 +- 1.6 days in wolves, which means individual proestrus can be 21 days long in wolves. In wolfdogs this seems to be even longer - Frei is now 28 days in heat and still not flagging completely (she insists on at least 10 minutes of play before being willing to stand still for some smelling and licking). Of course she was not bleeding continually since the beginning, but now she is bleeding profusely for a week, but shows no signs of discomfort except frequent licking. Male dogs thought she was smelling really nice since the beginning, but a week ago they started to be very very insistent on continuing their walks in our direction.

Wolfdog breeders seem to think it is normal to have such a long heat in wolfdog (also the vet who is doing progesterone tests), but my regular veterinarian is concerned about development of cystic endometrial hyperplasia due to long heat. He says that a bitch should not be in heat longer than 4 weeks.

So any vets here (I know about Ina but there may be more?) - what is your opinion? Should I be concerned? Should I let him stop her cycle, if this continues and if, then when?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by saschia

So any vets here (I know about Ina but there may be more?) - what is your opinion? Should I be concerned? Should I let him stop her cycle, if this continues and if, then when?

o.k. I will shut up, even if I wouldn´t stop it now.
Nebulosa?

[saschia]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

...I will shut up...

Oh, I hope you didn't understand that I am not interested in your opinion, because I am, and very much. I just wanted to ask every vet here what their opinon is...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

o.k. I will shut up, even if I wouldn´t stop it now.
Nebulosa?

I'm student without experience in CzW heath.. the first one I saw was in Jezebeth past month, and i'm still not sure if it really's end or not
So in truth I was waiting your reply.

[GalomyOak]

I think I got some answers from reading this post...

But...just to clarify, since I think things maybe different with this breed than other dogs, I'd like to hear some experiences and thoughts from people with experience

1. What seems to be typical for a CSV - coming into heat once a year, or twice a year...or every 8 months?

2. How long is a typical heat cycle in a CSV?

3. Are heat cycles affected by temperature/climate?

4. In other breeds, it is considered bad to breed during the first heat, but other breeds also come into heat much earlier (I think...my oldest CSV is 16 months, and still has not had hers...). Is it considered safe to breed with a first or second heat cycle with the CSV?

5. What is considered a "safe" age to do a first breeding with a female CSV (if health tests are clear)?

6. Is there a "normal" time between the first signs of bleeding, and when the female CSV will accept a male?

Thanks for any answers!
Marcy

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

I think I got some answers from reading this post...

But...just to clarify, since I think things maybe different with this breed than other dogs, I'd like to hear some experiences and thoughts from people with experience

1. What seems to be typical for a CSV - coming into heat once a year, or twice a year...or every 8 months?

mostly 8-12 month

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

2. How long is a typical heat cycle in a CSV?

It depends in my experience very much on a male dog in the family that is seen as a potential partner by the bitch. Then it is the normal 2,5-3 weeks. When there is none it can go over weeks without any pathological reasons. Saschias bitch was succesfully mated so obviously everything was physiological

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

3. Are heat cycles affected by temperature/climate?

Not very much more by other bitches in heat

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

4. In other breeds, it is considered bad to breed during the first heat, but other breeds also come into heat much earlier (I think...my oldest CSV is 16 months, and still has not had hers...). Is it considered safe to breed with a first or second heat cycle with the CSV?

I think you shouldn´t breed before they are fully grown, as some bitches don´t come into heat before they are 2-2,5 years old there is no reason not to mate them in their first heat then. I wouldn´t breed before the age of 2 depending on the bitch, she will be a better mother when she is adult. Our younger bitches always have been nannies of the puppies of the older ones and have had the opportunity to learn and all dogs care for the puppies of the actual litter I don´t think it is a good idea to mate them too early and without experience, the puppies learn very much of their mother and familiy, the mother has to be matured for being a full potential mother.

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

6. Is there a "normal" time between the first signs of bleeding, and when the female CSV will accept a male?

Our bitches are in this period around the 14th (Bschka) to the 20th day (Amy)

Ina

[mijke]

I am not a vet and I can only tell you my experiences as breeder (of several breed)

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

1. What seems to be typical for a CSV - coming into heat once a year, or twice a year...or every 8 months?

The most CsW I know between 8 and 13 months

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

2. How long is a typical heat cycle in a CSV?

I did see (and did hear of other breeders) a lot of differences in wolfdog breed. Some 2,5 weeks till even 6 weeks and even with 6 weeks a normal covering and pregnancy did follow! My own female always about 30 days (even when there was a male at home)

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

3. Are heat cycles affected by temperature/climate?

I really don’t know, but I did hear for example of a breeder in Israel her dog was in heat every 12 months. An other interesting thing I did discuss before with other breeders in CZ: in east Europe countries most females are in heat in autumn. But in west Europe a lot of them in later months (my female always in January/February)

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

4. In other breeds, it is considered bad to breed during the first heat, but other breeds also come into heat much earlier (I think...my oldest CSV is 16 months, and still has not had hers...). Is it considered safe to breed with a first or second heat cycle with the CSV?
5. What is considered a "safe" age to do a first breeding with a female CSV (if health tests are clear)?

I never mate a female (of any breed) the first heat. I always wait till they are more grown up. And then for a CsW it means sometimes first covering with 3 years.

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

6. Is there a "normal" time between the first signs of bleeding, and when the female CSV will accept a male?

Comparing with my other breed there is not a “normal” time with wolfdogs! My CsW female did accept the males between 25 and 28 days. And there was no difference if there was a male at home or not.

But I know a lot of case with “strange heats”, like for example a split heat, of wolfdogs (CsW and SWH) without any pathological reasons, but sometimes maybe physiological reasons. And sometimes the owner never find out what was the reason!

[wolfin]

Hi,

me bitch have 3 litters and who I see:
shes perod is 12-13 monts.
shes heat is (and shes daughter) about 3 monts for first blooding days.
for mate she be in end 3 monts and all thime when i mate she have healt litter from 7-8-9 pupps.
shes first heat be in 18 monts, shes daughter in 18-25 monts ( 2 diferenc litter)
i have in me house dogs, and see always first blooding days, and have a male, but to mating days be easy - he only chceck she and nothing, when be mating he be crazy about 1 weeks and in this week have mate and pupps.

me very like this heat type.

[martiou07]

hello, for my female, Deymah, heats are very complicated has to envisage. The first heavy bleeding started is its 2 years old, 1 week, then more nothing, to take again 1 month later, and for 3 months!!!!!!! The second heats arrived 2-3 month after, and this time lasted 1 month.
Then its last heats arrived 6-8 month afterwards, they lasted 1 month.
This time us made cover, the period of proestrus lasted 14 days, we carried out 3 cervical smears and 2 progesterone proportionings in order to determine the date of ovulation. Here are what passed at home with my bitch.

The mother of Deymah, Osa Hlas Divociny has heats every 8 month which last 3 months….

Already had this case there?

Afflicted for my English, i use a translator…

so long, Martial