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Sport & training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as working dogs - how to train, how to teach new elements, information about competitions and training seminars...

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Old 03-12-2009, 17:07   #1
Nebulosa
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Your reaction only shows your complet lack of argument, read whats convenient and forget what should be read, its tipical of troll or of people with low inteligence index score, its better I think in the first options your reaction resembled more sterical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
I understand much better your grumpy appearance
No, you dont, but you will.
We meet in the SVP when you was doing SVP2 with Uno right?
I didn't knew it was you and Uno, but I really get shocked after I see him, I never tough in my live I would meet a CzW with such atipical movement, I dont meet only 1 but more in this SVP, and much more in whole trip, and it really worries me because some people are forgeting the correct body and with it the capacity of work in this breed, also that have some people which have no idea about the standard at all, it seems to be your case.

Chest: Symmetrical, well muscled, roomy, pear shaped and narrowing towards the sternum. The depth of chest does not reach to the elbows. The point of the sternum does not extend beyond the shoulder joints.

The chest is one of the most important things in the movement of the dog, something wrong there can cause some problems in the movement, its well known.
Its explaine why Uno have such atipical movement, as he dont have tipical chest.
He dont have pear shaped, but oval, it didn't get narrow toward the sternum, its almost barrel form, the elbows reach the depth of the chest, it explaine perfect why he have to many work for TRY to make single tracking while run but isn't able to do it properly, and its really shocked me as I never waited such defect in a wolfdog, that's why of my grumpy appearence when I saw him.





And here you have one case extremal of chest problem:



Let me compare with a dog that have more tipical chest and was also in the SVP.



And this one already well known because of the time in the SVP3





I dont tough in talk about it in an open forum, as you're not breeder but owner of a stud dog which is learning little by little more about the breed, and mainly the breders will know the problems of your dog and be able to evaluate if his females have or not genetic to cover this problem... but as you commented...
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Old 03-12-2009, 19:49   #2
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Question Connections between endurenace and body build

Where is the lie Rolf? Because you isn't able to see the problem does not mean it don't exist.
Maybe people should read my post first, look at the photos and try to see it in real life because its clear, a nice exemple.
Everytime is a nice time to learn something new.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=19

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolf View Post

Just a few facts :
Everybody who have seen Uno walking/running can comfirm that he definitly don`t have an atypical movement ...
In my whole trip I only saw 1 judge looking the movement of the dogs and judging it, most of people by breeders and judges have no idea about it, I really dont blame they for it as studie movement is not that simple, its already fine people be able to see that " the dog move in some strange way" or "the dog don't move like the other".

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Originally Posted by Rolf
Uno have the 2th. and 3th. best time ever in SVP1 & 2 and it was made in the worst weather ever recorded in the history of SVP(I was told by some Slovakians).
My darling, wheater make some difference for the dog when we're talking about head / muzle and neck, it means breath and the hability of the dog avoid overheat, when its the problem we can see clearly, I cant imagine this problem when its under 20 degrees for a wolfdog, only in very strict situation that wasn't the case of this SVP we're talking about.

Dogs dont complain loud, so you can pull your dog at the speed you want and make it best, but seems that even draging the dog you wasn't able to reach the time of the "chakals" with correct chest.

SVPII
Uno z Molu Es - 5:21

SVPII
Eligo z Peronowki - 5,05

SVPIII
Botis z Peronowki - 6,51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
Workability/trainability of Uno ?
Where in all post I mean the treinability of Uno? I dont know his character for say it, but surelly this wrong chest cause to him some problems for work, you can pull him to run in best time, you can drag him to make sports in nice way, but when you need a dog for WORK ( and I dont mean here sports) it will make all difference, as you will not be able to do nothing.
But well, its even difficult to talk about with you when you only use your dogs in sports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
how many exams do your dogs have ? Uno have quite a few and more will come
As I dont live in europe would be wiser you ask "how many working tests you had in your country for pass with your dogs?"
Well, looking the possible ways we had only 1 working test here... in APRIL, to be more precisely, the last day of it was exactly the day I was touching my country again.
But last year, how many? Also only one, about 2 weeks after Jezebeth and Oskar arrives with me here.
About my dogs, well, they're well trained, I only need wait for the working trials here.
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Old 04-12-2009, 03:49   #3
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Where is the lie Rolf? Because you isn't able to see the problem does not mean it don't exist.
Maybe people should read my post first, look at the photos and try to see it in real life because its clear, a nice exemple.
I don`t care about your photos, I live the dog and see him every day, how many times did you see him in real live

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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Everytime is a nice time to learn something new.
You are absolutly right and it seems that you still have a long way to go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Dogs dont complain loud, so you can pull your dog at the speed you want and make it best, but seems that even draging the dog you wasn't able to reach the time of the "chakals" with correct chest.

SVPII
Uno z Molu Es - 5:21

SVPII
Eligo z Peronowki - 5,05

SVPIII
Botis z Peronowki - 6,51.
So you mean that I did`nt drag my dog as hard as Botis were ?
Well I have no intentions of duing so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Where in all post I mean the treinability of Uno? I dont know his character for say it, but surelly this wrong chest cause to him some problems for work, you can pull him to run in best time, you can drag him to make sports in nice way, but when you need a dog for WORK ( and I dont mean here sports) it will make all difference, as you will not be able to do nothing.
But well, its even difficult to talk about with you when you only use your dogs in sports.
Now you are really making me laugh
Obviously you have absolutly no clue what you are talking about and no, you don`t know his character(and apparantly neither his exterier or healthcondition).
Are you suggesting that it is harder to be a workingdog than a sportingdog ???
Well, WORK is many things : sniffing for drugs, rescue of people, herding sheeps/cows, police assistance, military assistance, guide dogs for blind or disabled people and many other things... to be honest, many of these jobs(which I guess you agree is jobs for workingdogs) is way more easy to do than an exam with strict rules for what, when and how the dog should do several things, most workingdogs just have to do the job does`nt matter how they do it as long as it achieve the goal(bringing the sheeps back without hurting them, finding the drugs/people, catch the bad guy and so on...), in sportingdog exams the dog does`nt just have to catch the "bad guy" it have to do it in the correct way, on the right time and according to strict regulations and it also have to do a lot of other stuff, most workingdogs only have one function ...snifferdogs sniff, patrol dogs are catching bad guys, sheepdogs are herding the sheeps and so on... but the sniffer/trackingdog don`t have to follow track in a straight line and lay down in the correct position, making sharp turns, the patrol dog don`t need to bite in a premeditated place as long as it stops the bad guy, it does`nt have hold the grip when a man is hitting it with a stick(as long as it hold the person back it can let go and bite again) it does`nt have to do all of this without growling and fighting the arm(sleeve) and so on...
a sportingdog have to do several things(tracking,obedience and defence) and within much more strict regulations than the workingdogs are working.

I can assure you that Uno could easily be a workingdog, but I find sportingdogs to be much more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
As I dont live in europe would be wiser you ask "how many working tests you had in your country for pass with your dogs?"
Just like it would be much wiser if you would stick to talking about things you know just a little bit about oh... I forgot you must be an expert, because you had CSW`s for how many years ? and you have how many years of experience with working/sporting-dogs ? and ofcourse I guess you must have at least 7 or 8 different doctor degrees in health of dogs(especially mine).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
About my dogs, well, they're well trained, I only need wait for the working trials here.
I really don`t know why you are writing this ? ...I have absolutly no interest in you or your dogs, you are nothing to me.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:13   #4
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Originally Posted by rolf View Post
So you mean that I did`nt drag my dog as hard as Botis were ?
Well I have no intentions of duing so...
Dear Rolf - the problem (YOUR PROBLEM) is that on every endurance run there are many people who see and can confirm the reality.

Botis passed 100km already two times. Such distance is for him nothing. He has the best times in SVP1, SVP2 and SVP3. He loves to run and he can easily run over 20km/h (it is still running and not gallop). He was NEVER draged. And saying anything else is just a lie who can be confirmed by anybody who saw him running.


Unfortunately "draging the dogs" apply exactly to you. For me you are a HERO - VERY strong man who will be able to make 100km even with Fila Brasileiro (alhough I can imagine the look of such poor dog after the test). I saw only three dogs which were draged so much - one fall down on the track, second gave up after 20km and only Uno was the only one who finished the track.

My words are not invented right now - it can be confirmed by the organizators of the endurance run in Samorin that I complained about the CACT given to Uno because for me he (or maybe better said: you) didn't deserve it. Uno was draged and after the run he had good visible problems with the forelegs (typical sign for dragged dogs). He was going to the car with stiffed legs and visible pain. My personal opinion is that CACT should be given to dogs which make the test within excellent time and finish it in excellent condition. Any not to ANY dog who passed it (expecially when it is visible it was already "too much" for him).
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:15   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Dogs dont complain loud, so you can pull your dog at the speed you want and make it best, but seems that even draging the dog you wasn't able to reach the time of the "chakals" with correct chest.

SVPII
Uno z Molu Es - 5:21

SVPII
Eligo z Peronowki - 5,05

SVPIII
Botis z Peronowki - 6,51



Quote:
Originally Posted by rolf View Post

So you mean that I did`nt drag my dog as hard as Botis were ?
Well I have no intentions of duing so...

Maybe she just wanted to say that some dogs are better than other (there are reasons for that of course) and nothing will change it. But of course someone could think like you - when some dogs are not so god as mine - god, but If some dogs are better than mine - then this means that somebody forced them to do such, not nicely the way that I'll never do...
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Old 04-12-2009, 14:33   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
I don`t care about your photos, I live the dog and see him every day, how many times did you see him in real live
And maybe its exactly the problem, you see then everyday and that's why find so normal such kind of problems, as its the common of your dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
most workingdogs just have to do the job does`nt matter how they do it as long as it achieve the goal(bringing the sheeps back without hurting them, finding the drugs/people, catch the bad guy and so on...), in sportingdog exams the dog does`nt just have to catch the "bad guy" it have to do it in the correct way, on the right time and according to strict regulations and it also have to do a lot of other stuff, most workingdogs only have one function .
So, are you saying that the few minuts shepherd test select more the dog than the working, where the dog pass years covering several kilometres for move the sheeps or cows, and needing to controling they everyday.

But lets take specifically the bite here, you mean that a dog which fights with a man in a sleeve its BETTER than a dog that attack at command someone he never saw in life, that have something he have no idea what is in hands, with someone he have no idea about the reaction, in a place he have no idea how safe is?

Maybe, that track in line, in a open field a counted time old track with counted size is more difficult than search people in the middle of the florest where you have no idea where are you going, and how long and easy will be the path.

Maybe you also have seen some explosive dogs jumping and barking uncontrolable after find the explosive, instead of quietly lie down


Maybe that is easiest for a guide dog dont respect his owner will and command because he know something dangerous is ahead, even if the owner is using some very negative reforcement because of it, than only obey the owner in obedience tests for make some tricks for few minuts.

Well, I saw here how many experience you have with it, maybe next time you should search about dogs which are only able to bite the sleeve, as its so common.

Or do you wonder why sports like Mondioring was create? And even it isn't perfect for select the dog

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
Just like it would be much wiser if you would stick to talking about things you know just a little bit about oh... I forgot you must be an expert, because you had CSW`s for how many years ? and you have how many years of experience with working/sporting-dogs ? and ofcourse I guess you must have at least 7 or 8 different doctor degrees in health of dogs(especially mine).
Again, you have no arguments and try to make personal attack, it arrives to be funny
But lets say that I know this breed and studie it much before you ever think about the existence of CzW, as I work with dogs and use my dogs at work much before you ever think in traine yours, I can say that I pass a little bit more than half time of my whole life working with dogs in differents way.
Different of you, I have experience with both situations, work and sport, and diferent of you I know the differenced between it, I dont only imagine how it look like as you do.
Without talk about how many time I already worked in a vet hospital with some well known specialists, and the fact that I'm vet student.

Quote:
I really don`t know why you are writing this ? ...I have absolutly no interest in you or your dogs, you are nothing to me.
What paradox again

But only for refreash your mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
how many exams do your dogs have ?
When you ask something, you can wait for reply, if you dont care or you dont want to know and so on, so it makes no sense in ask.
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Old 04-12-2009, 14:34   #7
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
Unfortunately "draging the dogs" apply exactly to you.
If you are feeling a strong urge to exaggerate, please make a topic called "fairy tales"
I will happily admit that Uno had no motivation for going back the same way he just came from and I did drag him maybe 20-30m. and then he started to run again, this have nothing to do with cabability, but with motivation. I had never run more than 20-25km(except for SVP1/40km) with Uno before we made SVP2, so ofcourse he was tired and had sore legs(it`s not a bad thing), but his paws was checked and he had no damage to his paws(if I draged him like you apply, he sure would have some damage on his paws), on top of that he was playing with a female just 5-10min. after the run, trying to cover her, so energy or cabability was no issue ...only motivation.

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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
For me you are a HERO
I am your HERO ??? ...you surely don`t show it a lot

Quote:
Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
My words are not invented right now - it can be confirmed by the organizators by the endurance run in Samorin that I complained about the CACT given to Uno because for me he (or maybe better said: you) didn't deserved it.
I have absolutly no doubt that your complain can be confirmed, but it says nothing about your complain is rightfully made and since the organizators did not agree with you, it seems like you were just complaining about nothing as usual


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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
Uno was draged and after the run he had good visible problems with the forelegs (typical sing for dragged dogs). He was going to the car with stiffed legs and visible pain.
Apparently you see things who are not there, organizers did`nt agree with you, I don`t agree with you for sure and everybody was telling me "well done" after the run and clapping their hands when we recieved the CACT, so could it be possible that you are wrong and everybody else is right ??? ...I`m sure if Uno had visible problems with forlegs and pain, he would not have started to play with this female and for sure not trying to cover her, but growling of her instead, because she was not in the right time for breeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
My personal opinion is that CACT should be given to dogs which make the test within excellent time and finish it in excellent condition. Any not to ANY dog who passed it (expecially when it is visible it was already "too much" for him).
As the organizers confirmed, your personal opinion means nothing to anybody except to your loyal subjects, you see things who are not there, why should anybody care about what you are saying or complaining about ?

Please, if you nothing reasonable/sensible to say, it`s better to say nothing at all !
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Old 04-12-2009, 15:45   #8
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Originally Posted by rolf View Post
Apparently you see things who are not there, organizers did`nt agree with you, I don`t agree with you for sure and everybody was telling me "well done" after the run and clapping their hands when we recieved the CACT, so could it be possible that you are wrong and everybody else is right ??? ...I`m sure if Uno had visible problems with forlegs and pain, he would not have started to play with this female and for sure not trying to cover her, but growling of her instead, because she was not in the right time for breeding.
Rolf, I really didn't expect any other answer. But it is only what I saw and what other saw too. And even if you write the situation was different it will not change the reallity...
About the judge in Samorin and his competence I will say nothing else than: he is just an unfair ignoramus (how else should we decribe someone who disqualified 4 dogs who passed the run in PERFECT condition and in PERFECT time but allowed to run a histeristic dog who run away during the run and gave CACT only for passing the test). And I think many participants will agree with me. Expecially Daniela, the owner of Amore Mio....

What I saw was Uno who was going on a really strange way back to the car. If it is his "normal" way of walking - sorry... really strange one...

The playing and traing covering a female is no argument - just see that the dog was able to go also to the car. I didn't wrote he almost fall down on the track. I just wrote it his forelegs were in bad condition showing pain typical for dog which are draged. Not for 30meters but many kilometers.
Uno was plaing with a female? Wolfdogs are really amazing animals - dying Bolton (surfering a huge pain and extrem anaemia) was not only moving but also plaing with our guests before the operation when the vets discovered his condition is hopeless and it make no sence to wake him up because he whould be able to live only 2-3 days...
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Old 04-12-2009, 15:59   #9
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Margo you are speaking about ghosts(things who were not there), I don`t believe in ghosts, so I can not make any comments about it...
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