Ugly feminine males...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by elf

Here are the graphs I had for HD vs size, 1107 dogs with HD+bonitation (raw data at the bottom: i.e. check not many entries for some size...).

The problem is "high" dog doen't mean "heavy". And there is nothing in the database what can show us "heavy" "normal" and "light" CzW there...

[elf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

hmmmmmmmmm... Did you come to any conclusion about the size and the effect of HD from this info...

Sorry ta ask, but I´m stupid

Best regards / Mikael

Correct Mikael, as we can see on the graphs we can conclude "almost" nothing .

[elf]

>"almost"

My little conclusion, if you take the curve HD_CDE and make a linear regression on it (in green), you find there is a little correlation, here it is:

[Hanka]

Oh, but it is not corect. Not every high dog must be heavy too....

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by elf

Correct Mikael, as we can see on the graphs we can conclude "almost" nothing .

Thank good I was not stupid

Best regards / Mikael

[elf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Oh, but it is not corect. Not every high dog must be heavy too....

Correct, not high dog must be heavy... but, what the graph do suggest is there is anyway a correlation (tight) between the high and % of dysplasic. This can be explained by, there is a correlation (if you take enough dogs) -even if there are heavy, normal, light types- between height and weight ; and weight helps dysplasic genes to reveal (maybe also lever effect ?).

[Monika]

Originally Posted by elf

Thanks. Would it be possible to access those papers ?

One of the best works about the character of CSWs created by Jindřich Jedlicka as work diploma.
Jindra has never not publish on Wolfdog. org. Work is private property, I have it in a bound form but I respect his opinion.
Jindra is one of the best experts on CSWs as a managed data and information processing failed after no one.
Try to contact him personally - kennel : Šedá eminence.

Work and publishing rights about DNA include the University of Prague, though the results were sent to me, because I took part in a collection of samples, I van not publish here also nothing, sorry.


For Mikael

Sangria - is a dog entered in the Register FCI and if you look in his registry he had 3 generations empty.
These animals can be exhibit! Judge never know which of the animals has pedigree and is registered in the Registr. only.
The Judge is required to judge the exterior, under the applicable standard, nothing more and nothing less.
It is very strictly forbidden to be interested about the origins animals before the jugement.
Is breed what have World dog winner with registr, only.

The book of origin of CSW is open and write to the Register is legal!

As registry FCI work let everyone find myself ... I'm tired.

It is very funny to observe how the fanatical Margo " lights up and catch the first primed " only hear the words Mutara.

3 Registers in the CR - ČMKU had entered by Mr. Hartl. Without his signature would not be possible, at all and he knew why.
It is very stupid to think, that he decided " our and his " breed CSW to discarded!

I think, those who advocate as violently strong inbreeding and condemn Registr, knows absolutely nothing about genetics and breeding, as such, and publication of any scientific papers and a comparison here is - insignificant.
Hereby apologize to all, which is not the last word.

Everyone has the right to choose and it is easy to see the pedigree and the register and to separate them from each other.

Best greetings
Witch Soukupová

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by elf

Correct, not high dog must be heavy... but, what the graph do suggest is there is anyway a correlation (tight) between the high and % of dysplasic. This can be explained by, there is a correlation (if you take enough dogs) -even if there are heavy, normal, light types- between height and weight ; and weight helps dysplasic genes to reveal (maybe also lever effect ?).

This doesn't really apply to original topic, but...the discussion of size/build/HD made me think of it...

I took 2 of my dogs to have Penn-Hip tests last winter (male, 65/66 cm, 18 months and female, 60 cm, 15 months).

Results:

Male: .38/.39 - no HD evident at all
Female: .27/.37 - no HD at all

PennHip measures laxity or "looseness" of the hip, which is a big genetic component of HD

This fall, I took the same two dogs for OFA tests - male at 27 months, female 24

Results: Male - Mild HD, left hip (C), Female - Excellent (A1)

The results suggested 3 things to me (hopefully I will have more results as I test more dogs) -

1. It is possible HD shows at later ages (big change from 18-24 months for the male, a surprise - I learned OFA results after I bred my litter - although I knew it was a possibility from the HD present in earlier generations)
2. Size is a factor, since both dogs had similar laxity
3. HD can present with relatively tight hips (it is the same for the GSD) - close to or below .30 is considered very low risk, close to or above .70 is considered high risk - but it changes a little with each breed

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I think, not much. Everybody look at WD gallery, he see wolfish head and travel to male only for it. Not matter male is shy or he has tragical movement.....On foto is super wolfish type, so pups will look like wolf too. Shy wolfdogs? Hmmm, no problem, it is wolfdog, shynnes is normal.

Hanka, you could not better describe the thought of CZW breeding in Italy...and more, on italian forum you can read: "Czw without typical wolfish mistrust, is not a good CZW...the most important is wolfish look, light eyes, short ears, large head...all others request of standard is not important.."

[Monika]

Originally Posted by Denial

well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog

By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.

Freeking is a beautifull dog, but what is the matter beetween 13 years and 60 KG? If the dog gets older an makes less movement just give him less food, maybe he could live some more moths keeping his shape right.
I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.

Freeking died six months after the tragic death as his owner.
Nobody know how long he was here if were Franta alive and Freeking was 10 kg less ...

Freeking was only a exsample largest CSW, nothing more.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by woland77

"Czw without typical wolfish mistrust, is not a good CZW...the most important is wolfish look, light eyes, short ears, large head...all others request of standard is not important.."

off course not all breeders but still...

But off course the fastest way to get there Is to add a wolf

Best regards / Mikael

[woland77]

And it is visible also by CzW: in heavy lines there are MUCH MORE serious problem with, HD

..i can't agree..on a heavy dog, HD affect more than a light dog, (environmental factors) but from genetical heritage point view (the first, and only reason of HD presence), and genetical trasmission is wrong (for science knowledge of today), or better, is very very hard to demonstrate for the complexity of the interpenetration between genetic and environmental factors.

..if is realy than heavy type can give many healty problem, is realy also than reducing size with hig's inbreeding, even with strict selection on disease, classic depression from imbreeding are alwais present with COI more than 15% for 2-3 generation. We can see it on all toy breed and more others breed than coming from a so big type. Are all very dificult breed to breeding with great healt problem..yes, CZW is so far from this but Trumler study on domestication say: "on hybrid type these process are much faster than in a domestic dog breed"

[woland77]

For me (from photos and tales, off course) this dog had perfect masculine expression, perfect bones...excelent COI, and better blood because had a hybrid line more than Bux, and thuse a more genetic variability...



however i'm proud to have both, Bux and Tambury, on the pedegree of my female!

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

The book of origin of CSW is open and write to the Register is legal!

As registry FCI work let everyone find myself ... I'm tired.

It is very funny to observe how the fanatical Margo " lights up and catch the first primed " only hear the words Mutara.

FCI judge and now again such words..... GREAT WORK AGAIN!
As CzW breeder and FCI judge you REALLY do not see anything wrong on it... For you it is really nothing wrong if people cheat, lie and brake the FCI regulations?!?!?

Of course EVERYBODY can mix wolfdogs. With whippets, shepherds, chihuahuas, beagles, with every possible dog. And the so called "breeders" of such mixes will find a country where they will be able to register their "exotic Wolfdogs"...

BUT - DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SAY IT IS RIGHT! That it is FAIR. So please READ the first words of the "STATUTES OF THE FCI"

The aims of the FCI are:
(1) to encourage and promote the breeding and use of purebred dogs whose functional health and physical features meet the standard set for each respective breed and which are able to work and to carry out different functions in accordance with the specific characteristics of their breed;
(2) to protect the use, the keeping and the breeding of purebred dogs in the countries where the FCI has a member or a contract partner ; to support the non-profit exchange of dogs and of cynological information between the members and to initiate the organization of shows, tests, trials and other activities like sport events, the use of dogs in rescue operations, etc.
(3) to promote and support dogdom and dog welfare worldwide

FCI is made for breeding PUREBRED dogs. Not for cheaters producing mixes and mutts.... Even if the producers are able to find backdors to register their mutts and get pedigrees for them (according or against the national regulations).

I think you are forgeting one really important thing - you are FCI JUDGE.

FCI judge of THIS organization: http://www.fci.be/ and NOT of this one: http://www.newsworldfci.com/. It really seems you get lost and you promote the rules of the "wrong" FCI organization...

[Monika]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

FCI judge and now again such words..... GREAT WORK AGAIN!
As CzW breeder and FCI judge you REALLY do not see anything wrong on it... For you it is really nothing wrong if people cheat, lie and brake the FCI regulations?!?!?

Of course EVERYBODY can mix wolfdogs. With whippets, shepherds, chihuahuas, beagles, with every possible dog. And the so called "breeders" of such mixes will find a country where they will be able to register their "exotic Wolfdogs"...

BUT - DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SAY IT IS RIGHT! That it is FAIR. So please READ the first words of the "STATUTES OF THE FCI"

The aims of the FCI are:
(1) to encourage and promote the breeding and use of purebred dogs whose functional health and physical features meet the standard set for each respective breed and which are able to work and to carry out different functions in accordance with the specific characteristics of their breed;
(2) to protect the use, the keeping and the breeding of purebred dogs in the countries where the FCI has a member or a contract partner ; to support the non-profit exchange of dogs and of cynological information between the members and to initiate the organization of shows, tests, trials and other activities like sport events, the use of dogs in rescue operations, etc.
(3) to promote and support dogdom and dog welfare worldwide

FCI is made for breeding PUREBRED dogs. Not for cheaters producing mixes and mutts.... Even if the producers are able to find backdors to register their mutts and get pedigrees for them (according or against the national regulations).

I think you are forgeting one really important thing - you are FCI JUDGE.

FCI judge of THIS organization: http://www.fci.be/ and NOT of this one: http://www.newsworldfci.com/. It really seems you get lost and you promote the rules of the "wrong" FCI organization...

Your behavior is beyond the boundary of decent behavior and to limit the law also.

You are One from hundreds of CSW breeders nothing more and Wolfdog. org is no official medium any FCI organization!

Register FCI leaves me cold, my role and accomplishments in their birth, and registration is zero, I do not have any particular interest, however, interested me in terms of breeding, and never for me, can not run a hysterical reaction and grafomania attack, as in you and that's the difference between me and you!

I am zootechnik no PC expert.

Hybridize CSV with whippet or the beagle and ask for their inclusion in the register CSW??? But you can try it!:

Use your graphomania and write questions about (for you problematic) the register on ČMKU, ENCI and FCI!
Their reply, without handling insert here, it can be helpful and clear.

All other speculation, lies and slander attacking just talking about your outstanding character and fanaticism, only.

Witch Soukupová

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

Hybridize CSV with whippet or the beagle and ask for their inclusion in the register CSW??? But you can try it!:

Why do you WONDER? Why do you SMILE? Why do you so sceptical? You have done already something much WORSER!

If I mix my CzW with beagle I will get puppies which will have 50% of blood of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
And YOU were able to register by CMKU and later by ENCI dogs which have 0% of blood of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.

So if it was possible to register Mutaras (which have 0% similarities to this breed) for sure it will be much easier to register beagle-CzW mixes which will have 50% genetical similarity to CzW....
If ENCI and CMKU registered Mutaras now they MUST agree to register mixes which are much more "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs alike"...

[Hanka]

But they tought "Mutaras" are pups from father cz.wolfdog and wolf female. Somebody forgot to write CANADIAN wolf and somebody did not write father was some mix.

[Monika]

Originally Posted by Hanka

But they tought "Mutaras" are pups from father cz.wolfdog and wolf female. Somebody forgot to write CANADIAN wolf and somebody did not write father was some mix.

Hana do you saw the register of them?? You should have these papers in head??

Ask officialy organization or their owners ! Not read wolfdog.org only.

[massimo]

...again the discussion switches to Mutara and Mutara gate......
Bux, heavy-light dogs arguments immediately become of no interest...
But it seems for Paula all this is coherent to thread...
So only choice now is to sit back and wait till the conclusion arrives (and always is the same conclusion....)

[Denial]

Originally Posted by massimo

...again the discussion switches to Mutara and Mutara gate......
Bux, heavy-light dogs arguments immediately become of no interest...
But it seems for Paula all this is coherent to thread...
So only choice now is to sit back and wait till the conclusion arrives (and always is the same conclusion....)

wll the discussion in quite senseless anyway as averybody will keep breeding the kind they like, and what is ugly for someone can be beautiful to someone else.
The thing is that this race is called WOLFdog, and as written in the standard it should look as much as possible to a WOLF.
Then if someone likes heavy type head and bodies because they are better for working and more ealthy (are them?) it is ok, breed that kind, as they are in standard anyway more or less.
Same thing for more wolfish type.

But as i Want a WOLFdog i'll rether go for the second one as nothing tells that wolfish kind is weaker sicker or is gonna die sooner then the gsg kind.

Looking to the pictures in the gallery of dogs and wolves what i can say (just my opinion) is that the heavier the scructure is the more the it will look like a GSD one rather then a wolf one (chest and front legs overall), and unfortunately haven't seen many wolfkind heavy structure ones (are there any?).