Shyness - Agressivity - Socialisation

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

? Some are really shy ones. But a shy one is not a problem for people!

I'm afraid you are wrong. Shy dogs are shy beacuse they are afraid of people or/and new situations. When any dog is frightened (or feels insecure) it is prone to attack. Well socialised, self-confident dogs do not attack because they don't see any reasons why they should. They trust people due to their own positive experiences and their mothers' behavioural patterns which they tend to imitate when they grow up.

As Margo put it once wisely on the Polish forum - shyness is the mirror image of aggressivness. There is very thin line between a dog being shy and aggressive and shyness often leads to aggression.

[hanninadina]

A shy dog will turn to be aggressiv if he feels putting in a corner, if you know what I mean. Therefore you have to be careful. Please, don´t understand me wrong, I don´t like shy dogs and I think it is very important to socialize puppies from the moment on they open their eyes. A puppy gets 1/3 from the genetic of the parents, 1/3 by socialization by the breeder and 1/3 by the new owner.

Christian

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

A shy dog will turn to be aggressiv if he feels putting in a corner, if you know what I mean.

Exactly, but that's why they're dangerous. The problem with shy dogs is that a person might not anticipate correctly situations when the dog feels put in a tight corner, e.g. a judge may want to look through the shy dogs' teeth and the dog might attack. I know a breeder whose dogs are so shy that at dog shows they lie down in panic and "warn" everybody who wants to touch them though at home, without strangers around, they are OK!

Originally Posted by hanninadina

A puppy gets 1/3 from the genetic of the parents, 1/3 by socialization by the breeder and 1/3 by the new owner.

What an interestingly exact statement! Do you know of any studies that justify it?

[hanninadina]

Studys, that 1/3 is genetic, 1/3 is socialization by breeder and 1/3 is new owner? Yes, of course Prof. Dr. Feddersen-Petersen from the university in Kiel studyed that thing and she wrote a book called "Hundepsychologie". She is one of the most famous german dog and wolf people. She made examination on wolves, hybrids and dogs.

Hi Edit, I don´t know what you want, I say your dogs have good character but they are kind of hard to handle. But please confirm is it not true that your dogs don´t get socialization on people only on dogs? I mean socialization on children, man and woman, in house noises and everything. And Edit, sorry to say, but there are a "few" people who are talking about your dogs that they have not good character and are shy. Don´t you know it? It is no matter who many csw you saw and get grown up. It is the quality of what people see. And a csw is not a wolf! He can look a like but he have to behave like a dog. The standard doesn´t want shy csw! Sure you are right, you can do what you want, but please don´t be angry if people are talking about the behaviour. It doesn´t come only by the look of the dog but also of the behaviour. And a dog must be able to live in a house and can take everywhere. That is my opinion, everyone can see it like he wants.

There are csw who come from breeders which have lots of csw. But they behave like dogs and look like wolf and are not shy. So that is the proof that it is possible.

Christian

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Studys, that 1/3 is genetic, 1/3 is socialization by breeder and 1/3 is new owner? Yes, of course Prof. Dr. Feddersen-Petersen from the university in Kiel studyed that thing and she wrote a book called "Hundepsychologie". She is one of the most famous german dog and wolf people. She made examination on wolves, hybrids and dogs.

Sorry but I don´t think that she ever mentioned your 1/3rds and I heard her a lot of times and know her books. Could you please tell me the chapter and page?

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Studys, that 1/3 is genetic, 1/3 is socialization by breeder and 1/3 is new owner? Yes, of course Prof. Dr. Feddersen-Petersen from the university in Kiel studyed that thing and she wrote a book called "Hundepsychologie". She is one of the most famous german dog and wolf people. She made examination on wolves, hybrids and dogs.

That sounds very interesting! Do you happen to know if the book has been translated into English?

I wish somebody would conduct similar studies on children and obtain equally precise results. The lives of all parents would be much easier

[Wolfsirius]

Few words from me as well, now as this topic is “on top”,
even I don’t speak especially about any breeder, or any dogs, but generally want to say few words about the breed.

Agressivity. I had met few CsVs in Europe (in CZ as well) with good socialication, but agressive.
Agressive to people and other dogs. My experience is that so called " open dogs" can be very dangerous, not only shy ones.
And i think this is truth. Nobody can say that only shy CsV is agressive.
I think all of us who had met many dogs, knows that problems can be on both, shy and open ones.

About socialisation. I had wonder long time, how can breeders keep puppies well socialisated as have many litters at same time.
Every dog owner, especially breeder knows how much one litter take time and strength from breeder.

I think is no sense to say that just 5 dog is enough, if you have more you are “bad”
I think that “good” amount of dogs depence a bit what kind of family you have, and how many members take care of dogs.
I think that everyone of us should know which is enough or too much dogs for each of us,
amount of dogs cant be depent on what has somebody said somewhere. I know many people whom even 1 dog is too much to take care.

There is one thing more I would like to speak about, not only character of our breed, or amount of dogs which people have,
but breeders responsibility as they mate females, and as they sell puppies. If look at available puppies, is quantity enormous.

Lot of matings, lot of puppies, all over the Europe. How many breeder can honestly say, that have or will have good, responsible homes for puppies?
How many breeder can say, that combination they made have something to give to the breed? Honestly.
Puppies are lovely, puppies are nice,
is exciting to see puppies growing, is exciting to meet new people who are interested about puppies, is great to be a breeder who can tell about the breed
for people, is great to be / to know a bit more than those who ask puppy, maybe is good to get some extra money as well, but then what?
Look at adult dogs available. Looks really miserable. Many dogs looking for a new home, many dogs get a new home, but many don’t.
And many of them is already so called problemdogs.

We should be proud of our breed, we should be proud owners / breeders of wolfdog.
Now it seems that we have more quantity of dogs and quantity of “breeders” every year, but quality,
quality of dogs, quality of breeders seems to going down. Is very shame that we have lot of home changing dogs, it shows to all of us, that
something had went wrong. Our purpose should be to find forever loving homes for puppies, not only somebody to take and pay puppy as it’s ready to leave it’s mother.
No matter what happen after that, no matter if new owner can’t handle with puppy, If cant , then will be on list adult dogs available or re-homing some other way.
This is not responsible breeding, never.

Who can say that breeder is responsible if sell puppy to person who had only experience from example golden retriever, who never met CsV alive,
only saw/read from internet what kind of breed CsV is and want it cause is beautiful, rare and wolfish.
Is it responsible breeding, if people can get puppy from breeder so that first contact today by email, puppy reservated tomorrow.
Without personal meeting, without any questions from new owner, without any real info what kind our breed really is.
Is it enough that people say that I read from internet about the breed, and I want a puppy now?
We all who know the breed, can say that CsV is not GSD, CsV is not easiest breed to handle.
Puppy can travel by cargo thousands of kilometers, no worry anymore.
Money to bank account and goodbye for the puppy and maybe upcoming problems at same time.
It is easy, clean and fast, but never responsible, and never will give a good image of our breed or breeders.

Have you ever think, that there could be a reason why some breeder didn’t sell puppy to someone?
Nowdays if somebody cant get puppy from first breeder asked, it sure will get from somebody, no matter if is suitable for the breed or not.
It never should be like this!

We have many differencies between countries. For example in Finland ministry of agriculture will prohibit hybrids (all the mixed dogs with wolf)
only because one (1) case happened where wolfdog attack old lady. Only one ever happened, they didn’t need more from wolfdogs.
And for them is no problem to prohibit CsV and SWH at same time, even these are FCI breeds, they are not interested about FCI backround, if problems seem to be.
For them is enough that dogs have wolf on backround. In Nordic countries, example Norway prohibit both breeds, Sweden allow to take dogs in to the country but don’t register any.
For Finnish ministry is no problem to walk on Norways footsteps and make a new law, no more wolfdogs, not even FCIwolfdogs, and that we don’t want, really.

This is not only reason why breeders should be very careful to whom they sell puppies, but is one reason. And I know that Finland is not only strict country with dogs.
I think no one of us want a bad reputation for our breed, but on todays way, many puppies to “just anyone” we will get it, sooner or later.
There cant be so many good owners for wolfdogs as there is puppies and adult dogs available.

I wish that all breeders try to co-operate, not attack to each others. I think we all have our own experiences and opinions about the breed,
Is good that we have different dogs, different bloodlines, different wolfprocents, and we should use this opportunity together,
not try to survive “alone” and without other breeders help and support.
Some breeders like more “wolfy type”, some like more “dogtype”, but still, breed is same, and should be our common to breed, and way to live.
As co-operating we can help each others to choose new combinations, new puppyowners, and right way to live with this amazing breed.

So, it came very long text, and still so many things to say,

With all the best ; Suski, owner / breeder of WolfSirius from Finland , (owner of mephisto cryin wolf as well)
wolfdogs since 1999. (not listed at wolfdog.org )

[*Satu]

Good text Suski!

[wolfin]

Suski

[Rona]

Thanks Suski for the very wise post.

You're right - responsibility is the key issue here and that's why breeders who take back their ex-pups in emergency and help them find new homes should be set as examples of reliable and responsible breeders.

Unfortunately, somebody DID sell the pup (s?) to HighlandWolf! Mijke refused - so the guy found another - breeder(s?)(or rather a puppy maker) who did...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Rona

Unfortunately, somebody DID sell the pup (s?) to HighlandWolf! Mijke refused - so the guy found another - breeder(s?)(or rather a puppy maker) who did...

aha, this situacion with HighlandWolf is

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Christian,
who's that breeder in Germany, who's trying to tell a wolfdog behaves like a Golden Retriever?

Regards,
Michael

[*Satu]

Hello everybody! I want say some things also.I have now 4 Csv. Two from WolfSirius Sleeping Storm and Wind Wizard.And two from spod Dumbiera. In all two females and two males.

They are not shy or agressive. We have travelling all places and we do everything what "normaldogs" do. But true is they are not normaldogs.They are coming diffrent blodlines and they are total diffrent dogs also. Easier and not so easier.Males have high dominant.Females thinking all the time.

We have diffrent bloodlines and for breeding it´s good that we can use possibly largest gene pool and different wolfblood prosents.Can we make high quality puppies without raising puppy amount? Of course WE can.

Every breeder knows their own dogs and how easy they are and they can think how easy puppies will be coming.

Every country have diffrent earliest pickup days and all laws. In Finland that is 7-8 weeks. it´s not best for wolfdog,(should be earlier.)

Why my dogs are not shy or agressive? I dont hit my dogs and I know what they think all at time.I have training as well.

So often in dogshow ( in every countries ) I have seen that dog owners don´t have dog handling knowledge.

So many times people want dog (wolfdog)only to pick up his image and I think it´s not good for Csv or any other breed.

It´s not good also that some puppy buyers want breeding wolfdogs but they don´t know anything about wolfdogs or breeding either.

Breeding is not only that We / you make puppies.

My dogs live inside house and I have 10 years old dauhgter, one cairnterrier and two cats. We don´t have any problems.

It´s not correctly if Csv breeder says Csv is normaldog and I think that this breeder is not only who said that.

We all owners and breeders most do what is best our beautifull breed.



Satu and wolfdogs

[hanninadina]

Hi Satu,

true words which you wrote. In germany it is similar. There are people wanting to breed and they know nothing. They even don´t know that they bring the breed csw down because from the same line are so much dogs on the market who all wants to have puppies.

Christian

[hanninadina]

Hi Rona,

here is a link for 1/3 genetic, rest training and socialization. The american military has invent such things. It is very interesting and the most important times in puppy live are explained. I found this link on a homepage of a small american wolfdog breeder:

http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/achiever.html

Greetings

Christian

P.S. The rest I will mentioned here when I have more time

[Rona]

Thanks a lot, Christian.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Is it possible that there are some parts missing? I only found the 1/3 of the speed of a thoroughbred is inherited, the rest is about the well know socialisation of puppies without any definitions about 1/3rds.

Ina

[hanninadina]

If you had read the text, dear Ina, you would have found that between the 4th and 16th week it is the most important work for socialization to be done. Please tell me where the puppy is during this time? Normally till the 7-8th week at the breeder and then in his new home. So you can imagine where 1/3 is in.

That is why I wrote in german forum many times that the breeders should work with their puppies. It means not to put them in the kennel with maybe some others dogs or only in one room. No, it means that the breeder should bring in unkown people to the puppies, drive some car, give them some noise which is in every household and so on. But this work only is done by a very few csw breeders. And that is a pity. People ae wondering why their dogs are shy or even not interested in other people, surroundings like bars restaurants and so on. And I mean not the dogs behave - ok, please don´t look at me, please do so as if I am not here -, but I mean selfconfident dogs, ok, hi everybody, my name is Andre, I am a csw and who are you? That is the point, people in germany are proud of their csw because they behave so well during shows. My opion is that most of them don´t behave like typically csw because they are mostly very very "calm" - as I wrote, please do so as if I am not here -. And we all know that a csw is far from beeing a "calm" dog. And that is the difference between a well socialized dog who doesn´´t care where he is and "calm" csw.

Because I am coming from the french herding dog the berger de brie - briards -, my male is a stud dog, I know what a breeder can do with his puppies during the first weeks of their lives. But I didn´t found yet one csw breeder who does it like it is possible. Some try and are on a real good way. But lot´s of do more or less nearly nothing: puppies in kennel with the mother - 4 weeks - 1-3 weeks with other adult dogs. And that´is it. I know it is a very young breed and I hope and know that there is a developement. It is true, when Ina wrote that the judges see that. Now a days there are lots of csw who are not shy in shows. But to get to be a free mind dog between other dogs and people during shows and be like always is still a long way to go.

Ina, I wrote that I will write here the place where you can read it. But I have in the moment not the time to look in my book(s).

Christian

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Christian I read the text that was the reason why I asked. Nowhere is anything that is talking of 1/3 : 1/3 : 1/3. That the socialisation- period is extremly important is well known since quite a long time but gives no possibility to say that 1/3 is inherited or 1/3 is to breeder nor owner. But don´t mind, I just thought there was some new research done and wondered about such exact conclusions.

Ina