Breeding with dysplatic dogs

[Mikael]

CsV whit HD D whit offspring´s >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...offspring=True

CsV whit HD E whit offspring´s >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...offspring=True

Regards / M

[anita_11]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Is it just an experiment to use a dog with such a bad hip score ( HD-D) or is there any other important reason using this bitch?

Litter of Anna is smallest problem in Poland now. Krzysztof write that puppies will be for sale as dogs not for breeding. And problem will stop.

Problem in Poland is activity of other breeders using dogs with wrong pedigree and selling puppies as perfect for show and breeding. Main is Jantarowa wataha and promotion of dogs of Upstream Ariminum. She is female with HD D-3/3 in Czech and now her puppies are in breeding and lot breeders in Poland use it.
First was Jantarowa wataha and it litter of son of Upstream called Tlapka. Litter with Tlapka have no puppies with normal hips and all have worser results!
Now Wataha make promotion of other son of Upstream - Veron. Mother HD D-3/3, son also not 100% healthy is HD B(1/1). Brother is Vaya Kiba and is HD C(1/2). One brother Voice is health HD-A but has elbow dysplasia (you read it: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11576). Veron is not controled for elbows. Maybe also with problems? We not know.
And we will have many litter of this dog with HD D-3/3 mother in Poland. Check it by you:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/litters/1061.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/litters/1138.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/litters/1139.html
Three litter and puppies will not be sterylized but will be for breeding! Other kennel "Wilk z Polskiego dworu" plan use Unkas - son of Upstream. Same problem - big problem in Czech because of wrong moving of this dog. Read here http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10460. And because breeder of Jantarowa wataha say to all breeders to use puppies of Upstream I think she will use such dog too.

And it is genetics because Upstream is daughter of Aron Maly bysterec and it is dog who give many bad moving dogs and many problems with dysplasia. Mirka wrote about it 2 years ago:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...6&postcount=21 Some generation changed but problem in same line is still same: bad moving and bad results - worser as by other.

In Poland we have only 7, maybe 8 litters in one year. You see 5 litters of dogs with such very wrong hip results in genes who are out of such wrong line is more as 50% of new puppies in Poland. Because of use of one Czech female - Upstream where breeder is not responsible - whole breeding in Poland is dangered now. Now all people speak about Anna but she is resonsible because puppies will go not for breeding. But nobody of you speak about other breeders who sell line of female with HD D as very healthy puppies.

And it is not problem only in Poland. In Czech Republic breeders use the same wrong dogs and in Holland too. In France I see litters of Velaskes - his mother is HD D-3/3 and he has many puppies but no results if he is not with dysplasia. Same problem in Italy - I see many litter of Will Passo del Lupo. Son of Upstream too. Many puppies with dog HD D-3/3 in pedigree.
It is many many litters of worng pedigree because of such many wrong breeders. And nobody of you not speak about it!

[anita_11]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But the real shame actually is on the Polish Kennel Club who doesn't require any hip scores at all.

Change it can only Club of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and it not exist in Poland. I think it is not problem because all breeders in Poland use dog with hips checked. Only kennel Wilk z Polskiego dworu have 2 litter with not checked parents. Other are right.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by anita_11

Litter of Anna is smallest problem in Poland now...

Thanks very much for all info

Very best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Anita,

let me get it right, you are saying that Upstream's hip score was D (3/3) in Czech Republic.
Her B-hips were evaluated in Poland? Who did that?
I know about the problem with Tlapka z Molu es and his mating with Avari Jantarowa Wataha.
Both owned by a German "breeder", puppies obviously born and raised in Germany, according to their website. But Polish pedigree...
The bitch's score is A. Made in Poland, I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong.
" Honi soit qui mal y pense "

Another thing...

Originally Posted by anita_11

http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/litters/1138.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/litters/1139.html

Apart from the hip discussions, what sense do these matings ( two sisters and the same sire ) make?
I'm just wondering...
By the way, I know there are many responsible breeders in Poland and it's more reprehensible indeed if you "breed" and raise your puppies in Germany, give them Polish papers or "delete" your bad hip score in Czech Republic, getting a better one in Poland.
Let me ask you two last questions.
Is it possible to make list of of dogs x-rayed in Czech Republic and then again in Poland, but with a better result?
Why are the results better in Poland, than in let's say Czech Republic or Germany?

Regards,
Michael

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Apart from the hip discussions, what sense do these matings ( two sisters and the same sire ) make?

None, to tell you the truth I cant avoid to say what I note those last years, its only a dog winn some dogshows or get a supposed more important title that he start to be massivelly used by all breeders, without concern with the compatibility of this dog to their females or not.

We can see the litters in the start of this year, one atipical stud, with atipical character and horrible movement was well used blindly for some breeders because his show titles, this fact is only reppeating with Veron and will repeat over again, until some breeders learn that selection is not made by titles, but looking lines, health and tipicity, things that show doesn't select anymore.

Select by titles, its tipical of Golden Retrievers and more popular breeds, with a huge amount of bloodlines, also in these breeds we can meet a huge ammount of problems, but its not such dangerous because they have a good amount of blood, different of CzW breed, maybe its the hour of people open the eyes for this problem before be too late.

This year in europe what I saw really worried me, some, but some dogs with horrible movement, including here some well known winners, some dogs showing cleary problems in elbows and some dogs with really atipical body, a good amount of dogs with labrador chest, Brazilian mastif's top line, German shepherd or molosser head, seems that the word "wolfish" was fogotten, sometimes we can see people referring as "wolfish" one foxy attipical weak head with big round eyes, a real problem for a working dog like CzW should be.

Seems that the problem is spreaded over the world and people dont get aware of it, keep working like if noting is happening, sometimes we can meet breeders which have no idea about the meaning of the standard, others have no idea about how to judge the dog, some are blind with the perfection of their dogs.

Originally Posted by Michaelundinaeichhorn

Is it possible to make list of of dogs x-rayed in Czech Republic and then again in Poland, but with a better result?

I dont think it would be possible, for what I know the results are not only made in Poland but also in Italy among other countries and for what I know these results are suppose to be "non official", publish it surelly will cause some headache for the admin.
But without doubts it would be nice to publish, will be very helpfull for the breeders.

[anita_11]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

let me get it right, you are saying that Upstream's hip score was D (3/3) in Czech Republic.
Her B-hips were evaluated in Poland? Who did that?

Of course not. Everybody know that for much better hip result you travel to Italy. HD-B of Upstream is from Italy.

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I know about the problem with Tlapka z Molu es and his mating with Avari Jantarowa Wataha.
Both owned by a German "breeder", puppies obviously born and raised in Germany, according to their website. But Polish pedigree...
The bitch's score is A. Made in Poland, I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong.
" Honi soit qui mal y pense "

Breeder write that German owner forgot to make German control. It is why registration of puppies is in Poland. But she not wrote about other problems.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by anita_11

Of course not. Everybody know that for much better hip result you travel to Italy. HD-B of Upstream is from Italy.



Breeder write that German owner forgot to make German control. It is why registration of puppies is in Poland. But she not wrote about other problems.

Anita, you are a joke !
You make an account on wolfdog.org 29.11.2009, you have no info, no csw, you have made 3 posts and all 3 posts are attacking Ariminum Upstream and all her offsprings ...to me it is clearly a personal vendetta !!!

I don`t even wanna start to comment your ridiculous accusations about HD & ED, as everybody who have been here a little longer than 2 days and have followed the theads about this, knows that the fact is quite different from what you wrote.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Mikael

CsV whit HD D whit offspring´s >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...offspring=True

CsV whit HD E whit offspring´s >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...offspring=True

The "Czech" case is different - when the rules changed and the Czech CzW Club made x-rays as the main requirement for breeding. There was also the law that also the dogs which are already with breeding rules have to do the x-rays too. So some dogs had already puppies and first later they were checked. IF the result was HD-D or HD-E it was no more allowed to breed with such dog. Only because of it there are some dogs from CZ with offsprings and HD-D and HD-E result.

In the case of other countries you really have the case of using dogs with strong and middle HD. In some cases the after-effects are horrible. During the bonitation in France there was a puppy Elisca du Center Club Moloss Wolf - offspring of Camei ze Smaragových vodopádů - who was young but already having problem to walk properly... It was the reason why the young dog get "disqualification"...

[Nebulosa]

In the case of Du Center Club Moloss Wolf seems that the problem is not only the Hips, but the elbows, as far as I listened some owners are having huge problems with the offsprings of Ulo Du Center Club Moloss wolf, principally when these puppies have as mother Starbright Villa Doria.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by anita_11

In Poland we have only 7, maybe 8 litters in one year. You see 5 litters of dogs with such very wrong hip results in genes who are out of such wrong line is more as 50% of new puppies in Poland. Because of use of one Czech female - Upstream where breeder is not responsible - whole breeding in Poland is dangered now.

Sorry but you exaggerate a lot.... There is some time gone since there were so few litters in Poland. This year there were already 9 litters born and 6 next planned. It will make 15 and not "7, maybe 8"... I would also not say that the whole population is in danger - sure there were and there will be breeders who do not have enough knowledge OR do not care about the health/exterier/character (cross out the unnecessary). But if not now it will be filltered later - by the owners (who will not buy such puppies), by the breeders (who will use not such stud dogs or females) or by the vets (when the dogs will be cheked for HD).
You can not agree with such type of breeding and you can post your opinion but you have to remember - you can no forbid breeders to make their own choices. Even if for you some are wrong. What I do not like in this case is - I know you are a CzW owner from Poland (it is visible ) and you know some hidden facts. But what you don't know is why the breeders used this dogs. And in some cases it was not bad will and because they are "wrong breeders". Sometimes only the knowlegde was missing, and sometimes the advertisers is hiding some facts...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Let me ask you two last questions.
Is it possible to make list of of dogs x-rayed in Czech Republic and then again in Poland, but with a better result?
Why are the results better in Poland, than in let's say Czech Republic or Germany?

They are not better. There was only one time when it was worth to travel to Poland, Italy, Slovakia or Germany to make the second x-rays. It was time when Dr.Sterc was checking the hips by the CzW in Czech Republic. Now there is no difference (in theory). In practise there is because the are different vets in Poland, Czech Republic, Italy and many other countries who check the hips. And the difference between vets EVEN in one country is sometimes about 20%. Because of it when we made the database we made the part with x-rays where was written not the country when the x-rays were made but the vet who evaluated the x-rays. I hope the new Admin will follow our work.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by anita_11

Of course not. Everybody know that for much better hip result you travel to Italy.

Yes, everybody says the x-rays are most strictly evaluated in his/her own country.... The fact is as I wrote - there are differences but not between countries but between vets.
I think the best check "what is right" is to see the x-rays results of the puppies. You can improve the x-ray of your dog if you travel to the "right vet in the right country" but what you will not change are the x-ray results of the puppies because usually they are made in different countries and most owners do not want to hide the bad one...

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

The "Czech" case is different - when the rules changed and the Czech CzW Club made x-rays as the main requirement for breeding. There was also the law that also the dogs which are already with breeding rules have to do the x-rays too. So some dogs had already puppies and first later they were checked. IF the result was HD-D or HD-E it was no more allowed to breed with such dog. Only because of it there are some dogs from CZ with offsprings and HD-D and HD-E result.

Thanks, now I can sleep better at night

Very best regards / M

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

to tell you the truth I cant avoid to say what I note those last years, its only a dog winn some dogshows or get a supposed more important title that he start to be massivelly used by all breeders, without concern with the compatibility of this dog to their females or not.

We can see the litters in the start of this year, one atipical stud, with atipical character and horrible movement was well used blindly for some breeders because his show titles

I agree 100%, this is especially a problem in country´s that do not even have a CsV judge, there are judges that do not know the standard, But they can still say a dog is champion of the breed or not

And after a champion tittle, even a wrong one (and the breeder knows it), the breeder will breed on it And sometimes even whit bad hips And maybe more than ones

And than we have the "I run on all the smal dogshow breeders" to get a fast champion tittle, but I do not come to the special club dog show or any big shows, and now I do not just talk about the CsV breed and Sweden, fortunately we do not have this problem... YET !!!

Best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by *Satu

I hope this wd database have all x-ray results in to document

No, they have not Sleeping Storms official x-ray result and document is still missing

But maybe you do not plan to start breeding again, any time soon ???

But it is not just about you, maybe some of the new owners wont to breed and need the official HD result

/ Mikael

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by rolf

You make an account on wolfdog.org 29.11.2009, you have no info, no csw, you have made 3 posts and all 3 posts are attacking Ariminum Upstream and all her offsprings ...to me it is clearly a personal vendetta !!!

Of course it is personal - everybody can see it easily... it is only a part of the problems which are going on in the Polish forum since some time. It just changed the language and goes on here (not the first time in the last month). Facts are more open to the public, people are more hidden... And in the fact with Upstream and other dogs is has (amost) noting to do...

BUT in this case I must say my personal opinion: "History repeats itself".
Some years ago there was a female in Czech Republic. From Czech kennel owned by young Czech breeder. The female get by Dr. Sterc the result D(3/3). Later she "improved" the results to C(2/2). It was also the time when we (old team of Wolfdog.org) "fighted" with the Czech Club for publishing all x-ray results. Not only the good one. One the club conference Monika, as member of the board said to all people present there that it make no sence to pay any attention to the Italian x-ray results because they are "in average 2 degrees better than the Czech one and dog which is HD-C in Czech Republic will be HD-A in Italy". She also attacked the Czech breeder saying "I would never breed with such [HD-D] female". Some years passed and..... She is breeding with the HD-D female (official result from one of the Czech vet). And because she owe the good result to the italian vet since this time for she changed also her opinion - now the Italian vet are simple the best...

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

She is breeding with the HD-D female (official result from one of the Czech vets). And because she owe the good result to the italian vet since this time for she changed also her opinion - now the Italian vet are simple the best...

This is simply not true !

I admit that I am not an expert on this, but I have seen the x-rays of Api with my own eyes and she do not have HD D for sure ...I think you know very well that a tiny difference in the position of the legs in time of the x-ray can make a huge difference on the result ...if I remember right, you wrote in another post that the results can be different from vet. to vet. even in the same country ? ...so why does it matter where the x-rays is taken ?
If you had seen the actual x-rays of Api you would know that she does`nt have HD D for sure !

"I only believe what I have seen with my own eyes" ...I love Hanka for this saying

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by rolf

I admit that I am not an expert on this, but I have seen the x-rays of Api with my own eyes and she do not have HD D for sure ...

Are you a vet? With FCI aproovement to make the official x-rays evaluation? Rolf, I don't write about result what I THINK she has. But result that she HAS. And the Czech Breeding comittee will confirm that the CZECH result of Upstream is HD-D(3/3).

Wait - here you have it:

Originally Posted by alexa

DKK jeho matky (v ČR D-3/3, v Itálii pak B)

It is about her results. The person who told it is the president of the Czech Club. For me a person who we can trust... At last I do...

[Monika]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Are you a vet? With FCI aproovement to make the official x-rays evaluation? Rolf, I don't write about result what I THINK she has. But result that she HAS. And the Czech Breeding comittee will confirm that the CZECH result of Upstream is HD-D(3/3).

Wait - here you have it:


It is about her results. The person who told it is the president of the Czech Club. For me a person who we can trust... At last I do...

Thanks to Anita, Margo, or administrator without a name I'm still popular, and my dogs too. Thanks: 0)
Whatever Margo trying to denigrate them by her biased and pieces of information ..
It is easy to "denigrate.
"I breed CSWs 20 years and I felt much. Fanaticism of Margo has not exceeded the tolerable limit and it's time to fight back.
Margo is a breeder, nothing more! No Club, no FCI!
She can not determine which dog passed breeding condition - Club´ s or FCI and who entered into the Registry FCI, fortunately.
All Polish breeders, who disaagree with her views are harassed, attacked their dogs, their actvities……

Yes, in Poland there are few litters and between Judges not have Polish CSWs good credit in Europe – the worst. Margo does not judge FCI, but I did.
Generally Polisch CSWs are small, weak constitution, without sexual expression, hairless or curly, looks like .. jackals not as the wolves!

For Margo Cut´s measuring 64, 5 - disaster, Iran and the Jabberwock with his 64 cm are a stud dogs and great! : 0)
This I called politics, not breeding of dogs.

If you impeach the Italian "B" must do so for all such dogs in Italy evaluated!!

I can easily impeach Polish Hd 0 / 0, I don´t have info from hearsay, as she has, but I have own.
We took 2 dogs - Šterc HD 2 / 2 and 3 / 3 - took them to Poland! Both received HD 0 / 0 - A and the vet. said: Wow, how beautiful joints!

Margo should handle her Peronowki to the bus and take them to vet. Šterc to Brno. Perhaps the most amazing statistics Polish HD will lost much of his luster.
Only a single Peronowka had results from Šterc - Aset Voodoo and she is in CZ - C!
Margo, of course, on her website states simply the result of the Polish "A"

I would like to see the bus! And I'll wait,
Until we must take her views as biased, fanatical, persons who wants to damages the names of some breeders and their dogs!

Saying that A - I have to say too B. Veron is what Margo burns - hate, his Italian origins and he mated Polish females! How could breed with him Polish breeders??!!
Simply, Margo has no patent on reason and not all wish to have at home type of Kasdeya or Loray! Margo If so, just do breeding with them, your choise! I do not, unlike it, BUT I respect it and I know that I never will buy „ Peronowki „ and this is all.
You bought from Me two females, although you not ashamed to say about Me I am not a breeder.
I can smile, only at your fanaticism and narrowness and move with grace.

When Margo remembered Veron´s siblings, could remember to Valkyra HD - 0 / 0, Velaskes - 0 / 0, referred the Voice HD 0 / 0 elbows 1 - 0, which I consider a very weak argument for not use Veron for breeding. Brother Vai - Kiba 1 / 2 – he is also a stud dog in CZ. No breeder´ s disaster!
Some fragmentary information indicates about halfsibling we can find in databáze, some are mising ... Utah z Molu Es has HD from CZ and from France, too and she is „ A „ - 0 / 0, WolfSirius Molu Es has Hd in Finland and in Cz and he is also - A, as she mentioned here Will PDL is - A, Wolfish Witch - A, Without Ear is x -rayed, her hips looks really well too, we wait for results .... No breeders disaster, again ... ..
T litter is worst, unfortunately, but normal breeder looks at father, also..
I used Nord for other litter with different bitch and pups not are good, too. Generally Nord not an innovator in any character. This is my experience.
It is easy to „ denigrate „ and to choose the worst of and good or great forget :0(
I know some dogs of breeders discuss here, very ill - fatally, as HD or ED nothing, for example Zlatá Palc, but I never will atac somebody here. If I have some problem I will say him personaly. If I have some doubt about dogs, just I do not use him like a stud dog. But for others, however, may be good or beautiful, and I respect it! The thing is breeding, we have no patent on reason as I told here, alredy and I'd rather wait until something bad language and publicly condemn.

Please Margo, turn atentions to your litters to your animals, because it is easy to dirty and I could start! Families of your bitches I know very well, and everywhere is something! Nobody breeding champions, only !
Mutual respect, respect and humility to the work of others, what Margo missing – lost..
Not all wants to breed dog type "Peronowka" sorry!

Monika Soukupová

(sorry for my English )