Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Nebulosa]

A simple color mutation would not change the dog tipicity, you all would be able to recognize them as czechoslovakian wolfdog because they would be typical dogs according to the standard.
Even by such simple photo we can have an idea that the skull proportions are wrong! And not only that, if we look at the pups of the mentioned litters we all will see that the dogs are weird according to the standard, ones more, others less.
Lets forget about the nice history of a possible mutation and get real about a possible accident envolving mixes.
It also kick out the possibility of an pedigree analysis, we only can guess where this saarloos (or other) entered.
There is an unknown dog (or more) at these pedigrees which we dont know when entered and how, the COI and everything else will be wrong.

[admin]

After several emails I received last time and taking into consideration the behavioral of the mentioned breeder and her lack of any will to cooperation by clearing this case I must suggest that we have here to do not with an mutation but with intentional mixes.

I received information that by Crying Wolf appeared two litters which show many characteristics typical for Saarloos + overgrown sizes. It is strange that nobody was suprised (even in the origin countries) that by kennel where dogs hardly reach the minimum size unexpectedly appeared litters where females are even bigger than the Czech lines - usually about 68cm. A MIRACLE? Only children can believe it it.

Examples:
females with 68cm:



and typical weak Saarloos expresion

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings.

We ask for help to clear this problem. The breeder do not want to cooperate (no wonder if she knews what she is doing). The Hungarian Kennel is also not a big help: it was already proven by the problems with export pedigrees and another issues connected with Crying Wolf kennel.

WE ask for help the Slovak club and some of the suspiciurs animals are living also there and there was at last one litter of one the the "Saarloos" females.

[Silvester]

These photos show clearly that it is indeed not only a different colour but they are mixes !
From the beginning of the discussion here it was all time much more probably that a mixing had taken place.

Just what nebulosa, wolfin , me and others had already strongly supposed before....

In spite of this it´s not very pleasant news .

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

[tupacs2legs]

very sad for the breed and even sadder for the breed in England if the 'crying wolf' imports are related to these 'mixes', as they were meant to bring 'new blood' into the country

[Shadowlands]

So is it only these 4 litters that are suspect? There was talk of Galiba being suspect too, I think, or was he the dog reported on the pedigree to be the father of a litter when it is suspected he is not?? I am worried as he is sibling to Gaia who appears in our girl's pedigree - where will it all end and where does it leave the breed? Not good news for the people who have bought and bred offspring of these dogs in the belief they had pure bred CsV's.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

very sad for the breed and even sadder for the breed in England if the 'crying wolf' imports are related to these 'mixes', as they were meant to bring 'new blood' into the country

I do not see any reason to import a puppy from a farm-like kennel like Crying wolf - well, maybe when the only reason is a breeder, who agrees to sell with no questioning. There are a lot of kennels with much more worth "new bloods"...
Do you have many crying wolf dogs in your country?

[Torsten]

I saw seen never twh with so weak red color and perhaps also still red nose… that is strange
Saarloos crossing is not good for TWH - it is the beginning of the end

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Admin

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings.

The list of suspected mix breed Cs Vlcaks are growing rapidly, I did send a e-mail to the FCI in 2009 but nothing did happen, they did not even care to respond, I think ALL breeders need to act on this at the same time, if ALL serious breeders sign a letter demanding FCI to act, it will be very hard for them not to, off course we also need SL and CZ club + other big clubs to support this... As it is now nothing is happening and the list of suspected mixes are growing longer and longer by the day.
Best regards / Mikael

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Mikael

The list of suspected mix breed Cs Vlcaks are growing rapidly, I did send a e-mail to the FCI in 2009 but nothing did happen, they did not even care to respond, I think ALL breeders need to act on this at the same time, if ALL serious breeders sign a letter demanding FCI to act, it will be very hard for them not to, off course we also need SL and CZ club + other big clubs to support this... As it is now nothing is happening and the list of suspected mixes are growing longer and longer by the day.
Best regards / Mikael

Why stop at breeders - surely a petition signed by all owners who care about the breed would be as, if not more, powerful... All that is needed is for someone (or a club) to draw up a letter and post it for people to sign (is there anyone who is considered 'senior' in the breeders, they would be a good person to draw up the letter and have it translated into all languages)

[Sona_Bognarova]

I am responding not only on the topic of Issar Kollarov dvor’s paternity but on paternity dispute in general. We all know well that only DNA tests compulsory in all countries can solve the situation finally. False data on parents can impact all breeders and owners. Financial issue is complicated, but solvable. I assume that it should be organised officially on breeders’ clubs or superior organisations (if there is no CSW club in a particular country yet) level.
At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.
Slovak CSW club asked me for co-operation in this particular case yesterday, therefore I will provide the Slovak club with potential information. I will deal with the situation in close contact with Edit Molnar, of course.
However, the whole CSW community should realise that accusing any particular breeder on any forum and asking for DNA test that way we will never achieve anything. Doing a DNA test is just the step A, we have to think about consequent steps as well. In cases of particular DNA tests carried out BEFORE introducing compulsory tests in all countries it will be inevitable to answer many questions, such as:

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

Well, at least in Lithuania it works like this:
If there is a serious possibility (accusation with arguments), that parents of a litter might be others than written in pedigree, Lithuanian Cynological society has a right to ask the breeder for DNA tests. If the answer shows, that the parents are REALLY the ones, that are written in pedigree, the Cynological society pays for the tests. If DNA shows, that breeder was cheating, he/she pays for it. I am sure there is a way to "cancel" the legitimacy of the pedigrees of the litter - just to put a stamp "not for breeding"

This weekend had unofficial conversation with the authorities of Lithuanian Cynological society about a cases of mixes in some countries. In their opinion, kennel clubs of these countries should be really interested in cases like de la louve blanche kennel's Such facts make bad impact for the reputation of all the breeders in that country, so I guess there is only one way - informing the kennel clubs of sertain countries about cheating with pedigrees.

[Rona]

Could somebody knowlegeable explain what it means exactly that Kennel Club of a particular country is responsible for a particular breed? I imagine the KC must keep and guard the original herd books and approve any changes in the breed standard. But are there any other international/legal rights and obligations connected with being the "breed-guard"?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

Could somebody knowlegeable explain what it means exactly that Kennel Club of a particular country is responsible for a particular breed? I imagine the KC must keep and guard the original herd books and approve any changes in the breed standard. But are there any other international/legal rights and obligations connected with being the "breed-guard"?

Kennel club (the main one, like Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce in Poland) gives dogs their pedigrees and put their name on them - so they should be very interested in using the name of their organisation on some faked pedigrees.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Kennel club (the main one, like Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce in Poland) gives dogs their pedigrees and put their name on them - so they should be very interested in using the name of their organisation on some faked pedigrees.

It's logical what you write and I fully agree... But my question was what legal rights and obligations would Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce have if some foreign breeder(s) tried to fake pedigrees of Polish national breeds litters, e.g. of Polish hound or Tatra sheepdog... Would the Polish KC have any authority and 'legal space' to act in such situations or would everything depend on the KC of the country where the fraud took place?

I'm not mentioning particular breed clubs, because I assume they should in principle cooperate closely with their national kennel club, which affiliate directly with FCI (?)

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Admin

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings..

I need some clarification on this - the "Y" litter, as in Yolka? This is Pollux's mother and this is very important to me.

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7930

Other than suspicions, is there any proof that other breeds were mixed into her lines (other than the initial project back in the 1950's)?

Pollux is a wonderful dog in looks (he's drop dead gorgeous!) but as you mentioned, he is a little large and we always assumed his temperament is a result of his upbringing (a lot of neglect). (Too bad, too, because if we could get around the skittishness then he would be awesom for acting!)

If it tuns out that he is a Saarloos mix we will make sure he isn't used in any breeding program here in the USA.

From what I've heard in the past DNA tests are not that relaible, mixes show up as pure and vice versa. How can we check?

As for "red" - this is *very* common in GSDs especially in German lines, our Kiri is VERY red and if the genes were in the initial projct then there is a good chance that they could still be in some lines, just hidden especially if red is recessive.

I think there is a full litter mate / sibling to Pollux here in the USA also (San Diego, perhaps?) I think either Marcy or Pete knows them. If it turns out Yolka is a mix then we'll need to track these people down and let them know.

Added: We may DNA test Pollux (Lunas Mom and I are discussing it now).

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

Under the AKC in the USA, persons can submit information and evidence of falsifying pedigree and/or "hanging" papers - meaning that the registration papers are real, but meant for another litter or perhaps extra registrations from another litter were used on a false litter- to the AKC investigations board.. they can and will request DNA and I assume pay for this testing.

If the tests confirm the parents data being false, the AKC has, and continues to, issue suspensions to the breeders/kennel of all privileges, this includes registering new litters, transferring existing dogs (no papers will be provided for this), showing dogs, etc etc. The suspensions can last anything from a few weeks to even 10 years or even a life-time suspension, depending on severity, intent, etc. Also, such a suspension often accompanies fines in the thousands of USD.

Furthermore, falsified litters do have their pedigree and registrations revoked and removed from the stud books. Finally, the AKC can make reinstatement after suspension of privileges contingent upon the kennel starting out with all new breed stock from known lines and pedigrees.

Here is an example of the announced suspensions during one board meeting (starting from around the middle of the page):

http://www.akc.org/about/board_minutes/2002/1002.cfm

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

From what I've heard in the past DNA tests are not that relaible, mixes show up as pure and vice versa. How can we check?

Are you talking about the DNA tests that attempt to match clusters of DNA to 'general' clusters of DNA in known breeds, thereby giving a 'breed guess' on dogs of unknown heritage? Those tests are unreliable.

However the tests described here aren't of that type. The point is to get DNA from the supposed parents and match (or unmatch) DNA from the litter or other relatives. These DNA tests are the same that are used in courts and are considered near infallible barring taking DNA from false parents to begin with.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

However the tests described here aren't of that type. The point is to get DNA from the supposed parents and match (or unmatch) DNA from the litter or other relatives. These DNA tests are the same that are used in courts and are considered near infallible barring taking DNA from false parents to begin with.

Originally Posted by Admin

We ask for help to clear this problem. The breeder do not want to cooperate (no wonder if she knews what she is doing). The Hungarian Kennel is also not a big help: it was already proven by the problems with export pedigrees and another issues connected with Crying Wolf kennel.

So it looks like we may be hitting a dead end if both kennels (CW and the Hungarian kennel where the "Y" litter was bred) are not cooperating (it sounds like nether is willing to subit dogs to a DNA test). It doesn't sound like the suspicion are from Yolka's mother (Flash) but more towards her father, Issar (if he is the father?). It sounds to me that Flash was sent to that kennel to be bred so I don't think CW actually witnessed the breeding.

I'm open to suggestions to see if we can get him tested and confirmed.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by saschia

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

But does this preclude a double-covering if the timing was right?