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Old 06-07-2011, 14:18   #1
massimo
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Default How can we stop our breed from collapsing under the push of fake CSW and pedigrees?

I havent been writing much on this site because very disappointed and lost after so many cases of fake looking CSW dogs and fake pedigrees circulating in the last years.
I will NOT make any names of breeders or examples of dogs, many already enjoy playing guessing games already and I am not in the mood for games now.

This is a serious issue and I believe the breed as we know it is dieing...
It is obvious when we look at pictures that some dogs CANNOT be sons of their claimed parents.
Red saarlos looking dogs, american wolf looking dogs, extremely wolf looking dogs, replaced puppies...
Of course, these things are noticed by a trained eye, but cannot be proved.
Sometimes DNA results stand out and shout...like when DM tests are absurd.
Stupidity in these cases claim that the test is wrong or there is some kind of miracle or exception...but who do we think we are kidding with??

The question is, seriously, WHAT CAN BE DONE??
With Mutaras, the clubs have moved in a way to avoid dogs with unknown pedigrees before a certain date, but when the pedigrees are fake, this is useless.

For all of you who fear, like me, that this could cause serious issues, are you ready to subscribe to a worldwide action?
I was thinking of asking all clubs to request FCI to make some investigations, to oblige some breeders to make DNA tests (paternity) by taking blood samples directly.
If these breeders do not agree...they should be prevented from breeding again.
I am speaking IN PARTICULAR about some french breeders who clearly show that they think this is all a game and that honesty and truth is just an option.
Maybe the clubs can select some judges to chose, judging from pics or from shows, some dogs who they believe can be from doubtful origins and request the breeders to perform the tests.
It is just an idea...but believe me, this situation seems to becoming worst and worst every month....will it ever stop if we do nothing about it?

My opinion about experimenting new blood in the breed is NOT the point here, I am mostly concerned about FAKE PEDIGREES.

why should honest breeders work for years and years to obtain small but significant results when others just use a mix or a real wolf, pretend the father is somebody else, mix these again and obtain results which are amazing, I admit, but fake?
Any opinion is welcome.
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Old 06-07-2011, 19:52   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
For all of you who fear, like me, that this could cause serious issues, are you ready to subscribe to a worldwide action?
I was thinking of asking all clubs to request FCI to make some investigations, to oblige some breeders to make DNA tests (paternity) by taking blood samples directly.
If these breeders do not agree...they should be prevented from breeding again.
I am in the US now and because the American club isn't a regular FCI participant, I don't know how much influence people in the US would have by petitioning the FCI. But I think that owners and enthusiasts in the US should really try to look into asking the AKC-FSS to stop approaching this breed with an open stud book because of the possibility and likelihood of outcrosses and fake pedigrees. The stud book has been technically closed since the last outcross decades ago, so there really isn't a reason why the AKC should be the only club left that explicitly accepts a dog which simply looks roughly like a CsV. For the US, this is probably the most important step next to DNA testing of all parents.


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why should honest breeders work for years and years to obtain small but significant results when others just use a mix or a real wolf, pretend the father is somebody else, mix these again and obtain results which are amazing, I admit, but fake?
To me these 'results' are atypical, the shepherd mixes and most of all the American wolf mixes. They look 'wolfy' but they don't look like CsV type. There is a huge difference. 'Good results' in a breed must not only be physical/exterior type but also temperament and development, and the ability to recreate these traits in future generations. Dogs from false pedigrees can claim none of that, and so-called 'breeders' of these dogs are probably the same that think that winning in a dog show makes a dog breeding material. They contribute nothing to the breed en large and I doubt care much about the breed known as Czechoslovakian Vlcak and its history.

For whatever reason, why can't people making false pedigrees go and make their own breed, like the American club and the 'American Akita'?
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:15   #3
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but what can we do?
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Old 09-07-2011, 21:09   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
The question is, seriously, WHAT CAN BE DONE??
With Mutaras, the clubs have moved in a way to avoid dogs with unknown pedigrees before a certain date, but when the pedigrees are fake, this is useless.

For all of you who fear, like me, that this could cause serious issues, are you ready to subscribe to a worldwide action?
I was thinking of asking all clubs to request FCI to make some investigations, to oblige some breeders to make DNA tests (paternity) by taking blood samples directly.
If these breeders do not agree...they should be prevented from breeding again.
I am speaking IN PARTICULAR about some french breeders who clearly show that they think this is all a game and that honesty and truth is just an option.
Maybe the clubs can select some judges to chose, judging from pics or from shows, some dogs who they believe can be from doubtful origins and request the breeders to perform the tests.
It is just an idea...but believe me, this situation seems to becoming worst and worst every month....will it ever stop if we do nothing about it?

My opinion about experimenting new blood in the breed is NOT the point here, I am mostly concerned about FAKE PEDIGREES.

why should honest breeders work for years and years to obtain small but significant results when others just use a mix or a real wolf, pretend the father is somebody else, mix these again and obtain results which are amazing, I admit, but fake?
Any opinion is welcome.
massimo

Yes, absolutely we must act and not just talk, I think DNA swop ALL dogs at ALL Bonitations, will be one way...

And (we) must make a DNA map of the CsV breed so that we can se by taking one DNA test on only one dog later on and see directly if it is pure or not... ( a DNA Pure breed test )


Sweden has obligatory DNA test on Saarloos and Vlcak´s before we get any FCI pedigree´s and as I understand it is the same in Belgium, the reason is that on this two breeds there is just to easy to mix whit wolf or GSD and get away whit it...


I have already bean in contact whit the Swedish kennel club and they are interested to get info about a future Pure breed DNA test for the Vlcak breed and as soon as there is one, it will probably be a obligatory test before register a CsV in Sweden + suspected wolf mixes can be tested by the Swedish police and prove the Vlcak pedigree is a fake...


I do what I can from here, but I think nothing will happen world wide before the SL and CZ club demands DNA swop to get a Bonitation code...

What do you think can be done about the situation in Italy ??? Can DNA swop be something that can be standard on a Italian (Bonitation) ???

Best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 09-07-2011 at 22:32.
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Old 14-07-2011, 00:25   #5
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Hoping you will find a way...
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Old 14-07-2011, 13:46   #6
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Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
I do what I can from here, but I think nothing will happen world wide before the SL and CZ club demands DNA swop to get a Bonitation code...

What do you think can be done about the situation in Italy ??? Can DNA swop be something that can be standard on a Italian (Bonitation) ???
That is the problem. In SK and CZ, the breeding is already much more regulated than in other countries. With the income/expense ratio being what it is and with lots of people interested in wolfdogs being too lazy/uninformed to research further than their own neighborood, our breeders are already quite pressed in comparison to others... Unless this kind of thing can be made obligatory everywhere, this will only lead to further spreading of dogs from untrustworthy sources.
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Old 15-07-2011, 12:12   #7
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Sasha, i think this is a serious matter.
The CSW world starts to populate with fake dogs.
I mean, some have on their pedigree a dog without ancestry, this is easy to identifiy.
Others have a blood which is totally different from their declared pedigree...
what is happening?
i think there should be a serious action taken, to the FCI level, because the breed as we "knew" it is at risk.

DNA tampon on bonitation is useless for me because the countries where the problems are do not have compulsory bonitation.

As I said before, it is time for the clubs to meet and discuss and agree on a decision, its a serious thing!
CZ/SK clubs should take a lead on this.
I would chose 3 or 4 expert judges who should specially investigate the issue and review shows and pics.
When they identify a "suspect" dog, they can request to make dna test to dog and parents.
If the owners or breeders refuse to do so, they can be officially put in a suspect list or something like that.
It is my opinion that these fake pedigrees can slowly destroy the breed as we know it and cancel the traceablity of the lineage...destroying years of work!
this is just my opinion...nothing more
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Old 15-07-2011, 14:10   #8
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It is my opinion that these fake pedigrees can slowly destroy the breed as we know it and cancel the traceablity of the lineage...destroying years of work!
this is just my opinion...nothing more
It's not just your opinion!
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Old 15-07-2011, 19:07   #9
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I would chose 3 or 4 expert judges who should specially investigate the issue and review shows and pics.
When they identify a "suspect" dog, they can request to make dna test to dog and parents.
I will add what was already writte here - the test must be done by an official commissions. Because they are easy to cheat as it was done already in the Dutch case...
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Old 16-07-2011, 00:37   #10
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it is time for the clubs to meet and discuss and agree on a decision, its a serious thing!
CZ/SK clubs should take a lead on this.
Yep, I think so to... As it is now nothing will really hapen at the other clubs, becose Sk and Cz clubs has not say nothing ( = No problem ) and the dogs have pure FCI pedigree´s, so we can not really do something, And some breedes do not even know if there dog is 100% pure...


I thinkt that...

Nr 1, We need to prove it ! So we need a DNA test that works !

Nr 2, The Sk club need to talk to the FCI about the situation, so that they can take away this dogs pure FCI pedigree´s... Or not let any offsprings from them get any new pedigree´s ( might work better and easier that way ? )

Not as easy as it sounds / Mikael
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Old 16-07-2011, 09:48   #11
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I'm very sceptiacl about institutional steps, too much red tape involved and too many personal interdependencies present. IMHO there are three driving forces that can change the world: fame, sex and money.

Continuous warnings about not buying CSV with possibly faked pedigrees, not only on wd, but also on other dog sites, articles in kynological press with names of the 'suspected dogs', petitions to FCI judges, etc. in my opinion would be much more efficient.

Such and similar steps might result in a decrease in the number of puppies sold in some kennels (money?), in fewer if any, requests for some stud matchings (sex and money? ), fewer titles at shows (fame and money?).

Eventually, this would create such financial pressure that breeders who would want to keep on the market will have to prove their reliablity by storing DNA profiles of their dogs in Laboklin, OFFA or some other respected lab, so that any potential owner/breeder could use them for genetic comparisons.

Just looking at the recent furious reaction of Furyos I suppose such business pressure might be quite effective.
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Old 16-07-2011, 10:12   #12
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Just to be exact... Does French kennel club know about these fake pedigrees? Did anyone inform them?
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Old 16-07-2011, 10:56   #13
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Yuki, the stud book is not close! (or maybe this year?) But last year it was still open.

Massimo: Mutara was only in first generation named, in second generation there were named another names in the lineage and fake pedigree started.

AS Margo wrote a comission must take dna samples personally(!) from the dog and the parents. Otherwise cheating would go on.

But you are right Massimo, now there are a lot of csw on the road where you can see - and you do not need to be expert - that there are other wolfdogs in the lineage and not only csw.

Special judge who will see? I know from special judges who say, if a csw looking wolfdog fits in the standard, I can nothing do against it. And as we all know in 2009 world dog show even special judges were not able to see the difference! That is maybe the problem of beauty shows, because there it is only the beauty what counts and people can not see the different character.

And if I think in germany you can go with a wolfdog without pedigree and they will get registry papers if he/she fits to the standard - and it is not a special judge who will decide. So I could easily bring a F 1 or F 2 csw into the breed. But of course his/her papers would not be fake but real. But I know that is not the point what you mean, Massimo, the fake pedigrees.

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

So I cross the fingers for you. I started with my crazy Myla and I learned so much from her, so that I think the csw have the right to stay a pure breed. Everybody has the possibilities to create his own breed.

Good luck.
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:25   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
I'm very sceptiacl about institutional steps, too much red tape involved and too many personal interdependencies present. IMHO there are three driving forces that can change the world: fame, sex and money.

Continuous warnings about not buying CSV with possibly faked pedigrees, not only on wd, but also on other dog sites, articles in kynological press with names of the 'suspected dogs', petitions to FCI judges, etc. in my opinion would be much more efficient.
The FCI judge MUST judge ALL dogs in the ring after the standard, EVEN if the dog might not be pure...

Quote:
Such and similar steps might result in a decrease in the number of puppies sold in some kennels (money?), in fewer if any, requests for some stud matchings (sex and money? ), fewer titles at shows (fame and money?).

Eventually, this would create such financial pressure that breeders who would want to keep on the market will have to prove their reliablity by storing DNA profiles of their dogs in Laboklin, OFFA or some other respected lab, so that any potential owner/breeder could use them for genetic comparisons.
No, we first need to MAP the breed and make a pure breed test, after that we can test just ONE dog against the MAP = CsV pure gene pool and say if that dog is pure or not, if more than 4 wolves = not pure, if other DNA than from the original GSD = not pure...

And it need to be obligatory for breeding / taken whit DNA swab and sent to lab by the Bonitation committee in the countrys where there is Bonitations... In others it can be sent to the same lab from a veterinarian... ( And yes, some still going to find a way to fake it, but than it will be very very clear that it is illigal )

On suspected fake pedigree´s one can do a Swap at any dog show and send it to the lab, if the owner do not let a club representant Swap the dog, the dog end up on a (suspected) list = Did not let us do a random Swop list...

Quote:
Just looking at the recent furious reaction of Furyos I suppose such business pressure might be quite effective.
I do not know about that, as they are even exporting them
And some owners and even breeders are not sure they have a 100% pure dog or not... AND they are asking for a test, but there is not one yet...

But yes, all of this is not as easy as it sounds

But if Check, Slovak and Italy do it, very soon many more will folow, Sweden and Belgium already has obligatory DNA test for breeding, but not yet a Pure breed test to test it againt, we only test against the parents, so whit a future pure breed test it will cost much less

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 16-07-2011, 12:47   #15
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But yes, all of this is not as easy as it sounds
Exactly How do you get the questioned dogs DNA tested against the will of their owners?
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Old 16-07-2011, 14:00   #16
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why should honest breeders work for years and years to obtain small but significant results when others just use a mix or a real wolf, pretend the father is somebody else, mix these again and obtain results which are amazing, I admit, but fake?
The question is if the results can be called "amazing". First you forget all the untypical "German Shepherd Alike" dogs which are brother, sisters, half-brothers and half-sisters of the "amazing" dogs... Everybody see the nice dogs and nobody want to see the mongrels...

Second - is "amazing" a dog which is looking like American Wolfdog? Dog who not even RESEMBLE a European Wolf? Sorry but i personally see there only one dog which looks similar to EU-wolf. The rest is totally atypical.

CsW breeders are fans of European Wolves. If they would like to breed American Wolfdog-style dogs they would breed Saarloos, working Huskies, Lajkas or even American Wolfdogs. None of them you choose CsW...

So the "wolfish" dogs comming from France are nice. Some are wolfish. But wolfish like AWD. Compared to EU-Wolves they are more "husky'ish"
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Old 16-07-2011, 14:13   #17
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The question is, seriously, WHAT CAN BE DONE??
With Mutaras, the clubs have moved in a way to avoid dogs with unknown pedigrees before a certain date, but when the pedigrees are fake, this is useless.
Honestly? Till the French kennel club will not finish the MESS in their country with the replaced dogs and fake pedigrees we can do only one:

NOT TO USE ANY DOGS COMMING FROM THE "de Louba Tar" KENNEL (because of known Saarloos mixed), " de l'Ange Gardien de Faujus" (known White Shepherd mixes) and "de la Louve blanche" (because of the visible AWD mixes).

NOT TO USE ANY DOGS WHICH HAVE MENTIONED DOGS IN THEIR PEDIGREES.

DO NOT COOPERATE WITH ANY KENNELS WHICH USE DOGS FROM MENTIONED KENNELS BECAUSE THERE IS NO WARRANTY THAT YOUR DOGS (STUD DOGS) WILL BE REPLACED OR ABUSED AS THE GUISE FOR MIXES.

DO NOT BUY ANY DOG FROM ANY FRENCH KENNEL IF YOU ARE NOT 1000% SURE THE DOG IS PUREBREED. (the words of the breeder are not a warranty because some of them have no idea that they own a mongrel and some do not want to believe in this)

And to hope that honest French breeders and the French club will finally clean the air...
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Old 16-07-2011, 14:23   #18
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NOT TO USE ANY DOGS WHICH HAVE MENTIONED DOGS IN THEIR PEDIGREES.

DO NOT COOPERATE WITH ANY KENNELS WHICH USE DOGS FROM MENTIONED KENNELS BECAUSE THERE IS NO WARRANTY THAT YOUR DOGS (STUD DOGS) WILL BE REPLACED OR ABUSED AS THE GUISE FOR MIXES.
Yes, this is the first and more important step!

Last edited by woland77; 16-07-2011 at 14:25.
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Old 16-07-2011, 17:05   #19
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Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.
Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

But I think they might have to listen to the patronage club = SK club, right ???

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 16-07-2011, 17:15   #20
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Originally Posted by Admin View Post
NOT TO USE ANY DOGS WHICH HAVE MENTIONED DOGS IN THEIR PEDIGREES.

DO NOT COOPERATE WITH ANY KENNELS WHICH USE DOGS FROM MENTIONED KENNELS BECAUSE THERE IS NO WARRANTY THAT YOUR DOGS (STUD DOGS) WILL BE REPLACED OR ABUSED AS THE GUISE FOR MIXES.

DO NOT BUY ANY DOG FROM ANY FRENCH KENNEL IF YOU ARE NOT 1000% SURE THE DOG IS PUREBREED. (the words of the breeder are not a warranty because some of them have no idea that they own a mongrel and some do not want to believe in this)

And to hope that honest French breeders and the French club will finally clean the air...
Yes, and looking at the video from the WDS there is more than one reason way one is not to buy a dog from France, I was not even sure I was looking at the Vlcaks, But it was Only that 50% of them had Saarloos mentality

And the judge did not even seam to care about it
Like it was just normal standard dogs

Sad regards / Mikael

And PS, I know there are good dogs in France to / good breeders, but they are just very very few at the monent, DS.
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