Norwegian ban - online petition
 

Hi,

If anyone from you didn't send the petition or had problems with doing it
yet here you can find an online petition:
http://www.wolfdog.org/petition/

After entering your name, country and email address the petition will be
send to all email addresses that Per Olav proposed.

Best regards,
Przemek

The Norwegian proposal
 

Hi to you all.

For those of you who already have signed the protest to the Norwegian
Committee of Justice and the Parliament - thank you very much !!!

For you who have not - please sign and send. The media have already had
their full portion, so it is not neccessary to address the media. Target
the politicians - that is -use the "to-line addresses" only.

Blessed Easter Holliday to you all - and don't forget to sendt your protest
to the Norwegian Government.

---
Per Olav

Odg: The Norwegian proposal
 

Hi Darja.

These are the official reasons given by the Norwegian Ministry of Justice.
The Ministry writes:
"the Department bases this on that both are breeds with large
requirements to their owners. Precise information on amount of wolf
content, has not come forth. For Saarloos Wolfdog the last inbreeding of
wolf was approx. 40 years ago. CSV has a shorter history, and the first
successful inbreeding with wolf in the breeding program was in 1958. These
dogs are few in Norway today. The Department is not aware that they have
caused any damage or harm." and "The Department has come to the conclusion
that Saarloos Wolfdog should follow the general rule for the time being,
while the CSV should be considered a dangerous dog according to the new
law. It can not be excluded that it could become relevant to forbid the
Saarloos Wolfdog also, especially if it appears in communities that can not
be assumed to have a responsible attitude to such dogs."

In other words: The Ministry has no information of the breed, but is
argueing that the closer the wolf - the more dangerous the breed. To stay
safe they are banning.
Thats why the Ministry accept the GSDs and the Belgian Sheperd dogs, the
Saarloos is temporarily accepted but the CSV as the youngest breed should
be banned.

Below is an English translation of the Ministrys arguements regarding wolf
and dog crosses - enjoy :)

15.5.4 Should crosses between dog and wolf be considered dangerous dogs?

Several instances asked to give recommendations concerning a new dog law,
are in favor of a ban on breeding dog=96wolf crosses and also a prohibition
against keeping or importing such mixed breeds.

. Dangerous behavior towards human beings from wolves in their natural
environment is practically nonexistent. As is apparent from section 15.4,
a large number of groups agree that crosses between dog and wolf are
dangerous for people. Internationally, there is an increasing interest in
certain communities in wolf-dog crosses with a high wolf content.

The Department chooses this as a basis and therefore suggests as a starting
point that such animals be defined as dangerous dogs.

There is less agreement on how high such a wolf content should be, for the
animal to be classified as dangerous and therefore banned. The Norwegian
Kennel Club maintain that all dog breeds have roots in animals considered
wolves, and that also many of the dog breeds of today have some association
or other to wolves in the breed=92s early days.

The Department will maintain that the question to be discussed, is how much
inbreeding of wild wolf in dog in recent time should be encompassed by a
ban. In the evaluation of a ban, there should, amongst others, be sought a
definition that is as practical as possible.

Several dog breeds may have wolf in the breeding process prior to the dog
being acknowledged a breed by FCI of which the Norwegian Kennel Club is a
member. In recent time this is the case for the Saarlos Wolfdog and the
CSV. It can not be excluded that the same is the case for eg. The German
Shepherd Dog, Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and the Belgian Sheepdog
breeds. But especially the German Shepherd Dog is an extensively tested
and wellknown dog breed which, even though with a possible early wolf
element, has a normal function in society and is also utilized as a working
dog to a great extent.

The Department has been in doubt to how extensive a ban on dog types that
are a cross between wolf and dog, should be. The Department has as a
starting-point, that it has no grounds to suggest banning of dog types that
are well established in this country. It could be appropriate to restrict
this to dog breeds with original wolf mixing, which are registered in
Norway by the Norwegian Kennel Club before January 1st 2003.

(Alternative translation: It could be appropriate to accept all dog breeds
acknowledged by the Norwegian Kennel Club before January 1st 2003,
regardless of original wolf content)

But if there has been an inbreeding of pure wolf in individuals of the
breed after the breed has been acknowledged by the FCI which the
registrations in the Norwegian Kennel Club are based on, the ban should
encompass offspring from such individuals. With such a restriction, the
Department assumes that the ban can protect against new dog types that are
a mix between wolf and dog, that the prohibition can practically be
enforced, and that established and widespread dog types are not affected by
the ban.

The abovementioned restriction, means that the dog breeds CSV and Saarloos
Wolfdog are not affected by the ban. However, the Department finds it
necessary to evaluate in particular a ban against these breeds. The
Department bases this on that both are breeds with large requirements to
their owners. Precise information on amount of wolf content, has not come
forth. For Saarloos Wolfdog the last inbreeding of wolf was approx. 40
years ago. CSV has a shorter history, and the first successful inbreeding
with wolf in the breeding program was in 1958. These dogs are few in
Norway today. The Department is not aware that they have caused any damage
or harm.

The Swedish Kennel Club decided in 1997 that Saarloss Wolfdog and CSV
should not be allowed to be registered or participate in any Kennel Club
based activity. In a press notice the 29th of April 1997 the Board of the
Swedish Kennel Club said amongst others:
<<One of the breeds in question comes from former Czechoslavakia, is called
ceskoslovensky vlcak and is considered very shy and watchful. It was given
an interrim approval by the FCI in 1992. The other breed is from the
Netherlands, is called saarloos woolfhond, and has a very reserved and
independent manner. This breed has a final FCI approval. Both breeds are
very similar to the wolf, also exteriorwise. The Swedish kennel Club has
previously taken a definite stand against non-registered wolf hybrids.
Amongst others in "remissvar"(written and posted answers?) and in a policy
decision not to allow wolf breeds to participate in any activities within
the organisation. The same applies to the socalled pitbull terrier. One of
the reasons for the strong dissociation from these breedmixes, is a
considerably increased risk of harm to people and other animals.>>

The Department has come to the conclusion that Saarloos Wolfdog should
follow the general rule for the time being, while the CSV should be
considered a dangerous dog according to the new law. It can not be
excluded that it could become relevant to forbid the Saarloos Wolfdog also,
especially if it appears in communities that can not be assumed to have a
responsible attitude to such dogs.

Odg: The Norwegian proposal
 

Hi Per,

Today I have send the petiton also to my contactpersons of other breed
clubs and asked them to be solidary(because now it is the CSW, tomorrow
an other breed). And I hope more people want to do the same to their
contacts in the dogworld. I have also made a flyer with a appeal to
sign. This I'll distribute on the Dutch show (Leeuwarden)on Monday. I
hope every little action will help!

Greetings,
Mijke

Odg: The Norwegian proposal
 

Hi Mijke

Thank you so very much.
You're darling :)

Greetings

Per Olav

Petition - CzW ban in Norway
 

As you already noticed it's not more possible to send the petitions. So here
is small statistics (it's only a small part of all votes because many people
send the emails directly without using the form on our page:)

All votes: 275

Poland (140)
Czech Republic (57)
USA (16)
Italy (13)
Netherlands (12)
Slovakia (10)
UK (7)
Belgium (4)
Austria (2)
France (2)
Canada (2)
Norway (2)
Spain (2)
Switzerland (2)
Germany (2)
Greece (1)
Israel (1)

It's a pitty we had only one week so it was not possible to make bigger
campain ... :)))))

Now we are waiting for the news from Per Olav...

Greetings,
Margo

Petition - CzW ban in Norway
 

Is there already some news about the decisions in the Norwegian
parliament???

By the way, indeed the list is only a small part of all the votes. For
example in Holland, lot of people send directly emails (without using
the form). And there were send also 2 lists (in total 114
signatures!)with names and addresses of people who signed the petition
:))

Greetings,
Mijke

Petition - CzW ban in Norway
 

Wow - it so great that som many have contributed! Marvelous! I haven't spoken
to Per Olav recently, but can give you a little update about things as far as
I know.

Firstly there has been a lot in the Norwegian media about how the dog owners
are in an uproar against the new law. The law encompasses many more issues
than banning the CzW (but allowing the Saarlos). In addition to banning
various breeds on more or less shaky basis, it contains little things like IPO
will be forbidden and no breeding will be allowed with dogs that are trained
in IPO, Schutz etc (which will mean the end of importing breeding animals from
abroad - which will have a large impact on breeds like GSDs, Rottweilers,
Malinois, Riesens etc.). Also there is a vast section concerning when anyone
is allowed to kill a dog (more or less when you feel like it, doesn't really
matter how you do it either). Totally it is one of the strictest (if not the
strictest) law in Europe. The total proposal was run through with the "Justice
Comittee" (the comittee consists of politicians from various parties) and the
papers reported that the law will probably not be passed as it stands today,
but will have to be revised. This will first become clear on the 5th or 15th
(uncertain about the day) when there will be a vote on the law. If it passes
it stands, but hopefully it will be sent back for further revision.

Exactly what the situation is on CzW especially, I don't know. I sincerely
hope they have registered how idiotic the proposal of banning the Czw is, but
I fear there are no limits to downright stupidity.
Regards Tonje

Thanks from Norway
 

Thanks from Norway
 

Hi everyone.
You have all been doing a terrific job :)

The Norwegian Labor Party says in its press release that the Party is not
in favour of breed specific ban. In particular the American Staffordshire
Terrier and the Staffordshire Bullterrier are mentioned. The CSV is,
however, not in particular mentioned in the Partys press release. By the
end of this week we hopefully know something more.

[I should like Oeyvind to mail me - I was not aware of you as a subscriber
to this list ;)]

Thanks from Norway
 

I am so glad to hear that ;-)

Thanks from Norway
 

I've signed the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/nahfkamp/
I hope many more will sign it as it has been published on many dogsites
world wide.
Laura

Thanks from Norway
 

I have sent many e-mails last month, but have just signed the petition and
have posted it on all of my lists ;-)
With nearly a thousand "Shiloh people" reading my request to add their
signatures, I hope that it will help a little.

Update on the Norwegian proposal for banning the CSV
 

Hello everyone!
To give you a little update on the Norwegian legislation - things have taken
an unexpected turn and we are a bit at loss.

The proposition for the new dog legislation caused quite an uproar as the date
for the legislation got closer. There were numerous protests, but mostly
targeted at paragraphs concerning situations where a person would be justified
in killing a dog in any manner they saw fit (apparently just about any
situation could justify dog murder - even down to little puppies if they bit
with "malicious intent" - how one should discern a "malicious" puppy from a
"normal" puppy was not discussed in the proposed law, but I digress - sorry.
However the total proposition and the development of it has been absolutely
shocking, makes one very upset). The other source for the protests was the
banning of the Am.staff and the Staffordshire Bullterrier, but the CSV was
never mentioned in the media.

The uproar finally got through to the politicians in the sense they started
talking about it to the media. Their attitude was seemingly very positive. No,
breed banning wasn't the right thing to do, and that they had understood that
you couldn't say that a breed was gentically more dangerous than a nother
breed etc. Sounded rather sensible, but then again politicians are apparently
not to be trusted. The legislation went through Tuesday - and the upshot was:
no direct banning of breeds - but - and this is one big but - the Justice
Department were given the task of banning breeds at need without having to
consult the politicians.. Wow, didn't see that one coming - SNEAKY!

In other words, the Norwegian Justice Department is free to introduce bans on
any dog breed as they see fit. This same Department developed a horrendous
proposition including the suggested banning of the CSV. Now they can do just
that without any instance having to ratify their descisions.

We are a bit at loss at what to do here. Perhaps the Justice department won't
do anything, perhaps they will. I suppose they will stay quiet at least til
over summer, as they need to let things quieten down a bit. For the time being
at least, the CSV is not banned. How long it stays that way, we don't know.

Regards Tonje

Update on the Norwegian proposal for banning the CSV
 

That is a shame ;(

Maybe you can invite the members of the Justice department to a picnic where
they can meet some of these great dogs?

Update on the Norwegian proposal for banning the CSV
 

Sad news, sounds a bit like the QUANGO situation in UK!!

Why would they ban the CSV?

At least I now know that it is not just my country that tolerates these
unjust acts and manipulation of the populace by the policy makers, politicians and
executive, even when they are clearlt unjust and inequitable!!

Regards from "Great Blairtain"

Steven.

Good news!!!
 

We just received this email:

"Thanks to all of you that participated in the campaign by writing letters
to norwegian politicians against the new dog-law proposal that would ban the
Check Vlcak and the Saarloos Wolfhond.
It has had influenze - the new law is now carried out and both the CV and
the SWH is leagal in Norway!!

Ø.N."

Good news!!!
 

Margo that is wonderful news!
I hope that this goes a long way to proving that us dog people won't be
walked over and ignore the situations that our beloved family members are
put though!
Again well done!
Laura

Good news!!!
 

I am very happy for these good news and I hope that no one in the word
could think to ban CSV and Saarloos.
giancarlo rinauro

Good news!!!
 

That's wonderful news ;-)

Fenris you wrote ; CsW have already been banned in Norway according to new law on "dog-keeping". Saarlooswolfhond is yet not banned despite its wolf-blood becaust it is believed to be calmer and friendler and of no use in attacking.

Am i out of some news??! Since when?

-Suski

More info soon for me. PLEASE. When this law came?How is with CsVs already in Norway? How is with crossing the border of Norway, ex. dogshows with CsV?

-Suski
*who seems to live out of any info, middle of forest with dogs. :roll:

To Suski:

The new law came to a decision on august 20. 2004.

fenris

The Norwegian banning of the CSV is based on the date of the first breeding. Against the advice of experts the Ministry of Justice says that the CSV must be concidered more unpredictable compared to SW. For time beeing the SW is "quarrantined" but the Ministry may change its opinion at any time.

The Scandinavian situation is the following: The Norwegian Kennel Club is approving both of the wolf dog breeds, but the Government is only accepting the SW.

In Sweden the Government is accepting both breeds, but the Swedish Kennel Klub will not accept the breeds to be registered.An unoffical statement from the Director of the Board of the SKK, this descission was mostly based on the resistance of the members of the Swedish "Anti Wolf Comunity"..

The next year the Norwegians will select their New Government . Hopefully this will change the situation. The Norwegian Kennel Klub is protesting and regreting the Ministrys decission based on non qualified advisors.

Per Olav

Be aware of...
 

this group is monitored and excerpts are quoted by opponents of our breed.

Hello,

What do you mean ?

What opponents ? :(

Thanks ,

Sophy from Belgium

Sometimes one must be gentle and quiet-mannered to be able to achieve ones goals - as all noise attracts enemies.
Maybe this discussion hurts the breed more than the supposed mischief done?

fenris

Hi Sophy

By an amendment to the new Norwegian "Dog law" the CSV is banned in Norway. The ban is mainly a result of the influence of a small group of individuals whose children have been killed or severe injured by GSD, GSD-mixes and a sledge dog. As a result of their loss these individuals were invited as a group by the Minister of Justice to express their opinion. These people whose homepage frequently is used by Norwegain media are collecting any negative information regarding dogs and dog behaviour. In addition to that the Norwegian society of a "new enviromental order", are expressing the wolf as an unwanted carnivore in Norway. The society has expressed its concern regarding introducing wolf hybrids into the Norwegian fauna, and has in media introduced the CSV and the SW as camouflaged hybrids.especially dangerous to children.

One of our main Norwegian opponents has been very active in desinforming the Ministry and public by using our National Television System and papers about our breed. He also has been acting as an advisor for those individuals mentioned above and is on his own homesite publishing desinformative articles and manipulating exerpts of articles. His main sources are found on wolfdog.org and postings on this forum..

There is a slight possibility that the Norwegian ban may be changed by the election next year. Our opponents are therefore collecting as much negative information as possible, and if no such information is at hand, you just cut'n paste ....

In my humble opinion - it does.

That is right. But now we have the chance to stop this mixes = to ban them BEFORE they will spread in the whole Europe (the Czech breeding committee is not informing people about this mixes and it is possible that later they will also not inform puppy buyers that there is wolfblood in their pups). So if we will stop this project everything will be OK.

...but imagine what will happen if the Czech comittee will put this mixes into breeding. Sooner or later the officials in Norway will let know about it. And there will be no way back to get CzW from the list of baned breeds.

And Norway is not the only case. There are more countries where wolf hybrids are forbidden. Now they have no arguments against Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs because this breed can not be listed as a REAL wolfdog. But if Mutaras will be used in CZ it will change.... :|

I fully agree.
From my point of view: by discussing such matters in public the opponents of the breed do quote the excerpts which are in favour of their views and add something like - "the czechoslovakians accept and register hybrids " and so on. This information - right or wrong - is widely spread, and might be fatal for the acceptance of the breed in other countries.

Of course. But ... in my point of view a *public discussion* might be harmful - maybe there are other - internal -ways of discussing such delicate matters ? A closed user group maybe?

But whatever the way you choose to follow, I¨m not against any discussion of the matter, I'm just a little afraid of bringing it into the eyes of those who are in favour of a ban.- and as far as I know - someone are watching this and other discussions regarding our breed.

Hello everybody,

Got a question. Are CsW still not allowed in Norway??

Greetings Kim from Holland

Yes they are.
--
Per Olav

do you mean they are alowed or not alowed with "yes they are".

Refering to your question if the CSV still are not allowed in Norway. The answer is: Yes - they are still not allowed - or in other words: The CSV is still banned in Norway.
--
Per Olav

I'm very sorry for you :frown: .
Hope that there will be a change that they are allowed ones more.
Again sorry.

greetings Kim

A lot of Norwegians do regret the ban, Kim, including the Norwegian Kennel Klub. We are all working for a change by a comming revision of the law.
--
Per Olav

Is there anything we can do over here in Holland?


greetings Kim

Not at the present time but I'll keep you all informed when the situation is changing.
--
Per Olav

Its possible to have one
 

I have always wanted to own a wolf, and now it became possible after I read about the race of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Well they aint really wolfes but as close as it gets....

And right after I planned to buy myself a dog from my homecountry Poland I read about this crap that only the norwegian socialist government could create. Its the fault of all of those who dont vote FrP for freedom but thats a norwegian problem.

Anyway I will not resign of having a wolfdog and just buy one with a mix breed passport in case I get stopped on the border, but it wont happen since there are no borders inside the EU. And when I have the dog in Norway I will just say if anyone asks that its a "blandingshund" which means a mix-breed dog born in Norway that is a crossing between a Husky and an unknown father probably elk hund or something....and 99,99 % of the norwegian population will belive it and the remaining ones who are interested in dogs do also like dogs so they wont complain.

Actually I dont even think anyone will care to ask me about my dog and what it is since the wolf dogs look actually as a wolf and not like a rotweiler or Pitbull etc. And most people in Norway except for the villagers (bønder) who dont live in the city suburbs wont even imagine that there is anything special about my dog other than that it looks nice "like a litte wolfie".....so it should be 100 % problem free. And the police do never walk around and visit people to check what kind of dog they have.

So the norwegian SV(ine) and AP(e) socialist can just eat their stupid piece of paper cause no one will ever have a chance to find out that my dog isnt just a mix born in Norway. In 2013 FrP will win the election and Norway will also be a free nation from the socialist tyranny, and we will buy cars & vodka for normal prices and have whatever dog we want to have.

Sorry, but I don´t think that´s the right attitude to own a CSV.

Maybe a bit selfish?? I would not endanger my dog in such a way. Didn´t you hear about the amstaff Majlo?

If I would live in Norway I´m a guest. And as a guest I have - much more than an inhabitant - to respect the rules.

Just my 2 pence ...

Angelika, I fully support your comments! Even if it means for some people that we're in the same "family";):lol:

Well actually I was born in Norway but I have Polish parents so I didnt have so much choice about being a guest or not. So I am not a guest but an inhabitant with norwegian passport and born on norwegian soil, and I am also a member of the FrP. So ofc. I do complain like 24 % of Norwegians who vote FrP also do. And there are many people who really hate socialists here not only cause of the dog law but also many other laws where they treat adult people like children who must be told what to do.

As for the attitude well its some reason behind creating a race like CSV and I am 100 % sure that one of the reasons was actually that they should look like wolfes while not being real wolfes since having a real wolf could be dangerous even if I could keep it from it was 7 weeks old (the instinct etc.). And the CSV is not dangerous from what I have read it just require some more attention and better guiding than for example german sheperd.... I dont know how someone can tell that someone else dont have the right attitude just cause he likes wolfes..... There are people who like yorkshire, chihuahua, dachs etc. for me those ones are breeding failures who dont got anything in common with the real thing the wolf. And I want a real dog that is as close as it gets to the original.

As for the amstaff well anyone on the street can see what it is just like pitbull, rotweiler or dogs like this. Those dogs are too totally different than the original. While CSV will be taken by 99,99 % of people as a mix of husky with laika or elk hound or something cause no one here do even know that something like CSV exist. I didnt know it too until recently. And I was very happy when I found out that dogs like CSV exist.

So when I get my dog it will never be in danger of anything since no one will even imagine it can be a CSV since they dont know what it is and they can never dream about the dog being "banned". When people see a "dangerous" pitbull, doberman, amstaff, rotweiler etc. then they are afraid but no one will be afraid when looking at a wolfie like CSV and thats why no one will be able to imagine that the dog is "banned".

And in 2013 hopefully the theoretical problem ends together with the socialist regime.

Excuse for asking, but are equally "sincere" with your National Revenue as you are with Immigration Office clerks who might be reading this forum?:twisted:

Well the immigration clerks may read whatever they want to do but they will never move their ass to the border other than once in two weeks to Svinesund to check random cars for swedish vodka and beer that people import here to skip the norwegian socialist tax. Whats funny is that norwegians who dont vote FrP still go and buy cheaper swedish vodka and beer and illegaly import it :lol: and its their fault that its expensive cause the vote socialist.

And even if some stupid immigration clerk (they are called toll here) would stand on the border he would probably dont even ask about the dog while looking for vodka and beer, and if he would ask then the mix passport will be more than enough he wont even imagine that something like CSV exist. And it definitly doesnt look like some "dangerous" dog like rotweiler or pitbull or amstaff who anyone recognizes and knows from stupid USA "warning films".

As for the taxes well I pay as little as possible to the National revenue since I dont want the socialists to get their commie hands on too much of my tax. The taxlaw is very flexible so everything is legal ofc. But I dunno what my tax has to do with the dog cause.

I'm afraid you missed the deeper meaning of my question... :cry:

Oh how sad..:(...well then explain me the meaning of it.....

Please read more and talk less www.wolfdog.no ;)

Besides I do not think your parents will let you get a dog until you grow up :twisted: And NO breeder will ever sell you, or anyone in Norway a CsV anyway until the law changes :wink:

Regards / Mikael

:lol::lol::lol:

XaedasKSP, you don't realize how bright CSVs are!8) If you don't understand a simple hint, you won't be able to understand wolfdog's "speech" :rock_3 Mikael is right, you still need to learn a lot. Goodl luck! :hand

I can just laugh at those the posts. FIRST of all I am 21 years old........and nor my parents or the socialist state can decide about what I do (with some very small restrictions regarding the state ofc.) :lol:

And as for the buying of the dog, I was just trying to be honest in order to let the dog have proper mix-breed papers so the dog could be 100 % secure here in norway....but if it becomes impossible cause of people like you then I will just simply have to be dishonest.

Which means I can send my uncle or a friend who live in Poland for example to buy me a CSV and dont tell anything about where the dog shall live when they buy it or just say its gonna live at their place. Or just change my mail and say that I am from for example sweden or denmark.....nothing simplier....BUT I will only do it if I will need to do so because of people like you. I still hope I will meet upon some friendly breeders who will understand that I will have one CSV one way or another and help me get the proper mix-breed papers for the safety of the dog they will help not only me but actually THE DOG itself. Since I can buy a CSV without problems I just want to make it SAFEST POSSIBLE FOR THE DOG!

Then do not try to buy one at all, and that puppy will be safe from both you and the Norwegian government ;-)

Regards / Mikael

Hehe well I have decided long ago that I would like to have a "wolfie" and happily CSV exist so I can skip buying a wolfhybrid that is unpredictable. About the CSV there is exact info about what to expect from the dog and how to treat and train it so its much easier and better than buying a half wolf for example. So I am very happy that CSV exist and I will definitly not resign of having my dog cause of some stupid socialists governing in Norway.

The days of the socialism are counted either way since in 2013 FrP will win the election together with Høyre.

:lol: Do not be to sure about that, way do you think they just lost ;-)
It looks like all people in Norway do not think like you, thank god.

2013, that is good, it will give you some time to both grow and study the breed :rock_3

Regards / M

Well I wont be waiting to 2013 to get a dog, I just said that in 2013 socialism in Norway shall end and if not well then I shall spare as much cash as possible and when I have enough, move out of Norway to some normal not socialist country where I start my own business.

People in Norway teach themselfes every year and FrP get more and more votes at each election, and BTW the non socialist side got like 30 000 votes more its just the election system that made the socialists win cause Venstre dropped below the 4 %. Next time those extra votes can count for us in the system and thats enough to make the socialists lose power. Everything is on the edge of a blade in Norwegian politics.....

For Heaven's sake, the Norwegian ban on the csv is not related to left or right in politics. By illegally importing a csv from any country the work of many good men in changing the Norwegian breed spesific legislation may be destroyed. I hereby apply to my csv owning friends all over Europe not to let any csv puppy or grown up dog cross the Norwegian border.
--
Per Olav

If you are Norwegian then for heaven's sake, you should know well enough that FrP stand for freedom of the individual and this is in everything from alcohol consumption to owning whatever dog you like, there will be 0 banned dog races in Norway if FrP win. And anyone who have read the politics of our party know that we stand for freedom of the choice, the state shall not tell people what to do or what to do not other than in criminal cases where someone restrict someone elses freedom illegaly.

And as second point I think you havent read my posts my dog will officialy be a mix breed not a CSV. And that will stand in all of the papers + no one will ever notice + if I will need to then I wont tell the breeder that I live in Norway or that I am going to import the dog here....but I hope I wont need to, and will be able to be honest and get help to get mix papers for my dog.

I'm sorry but to me it seems like your lack of knowledge of Norwegian Law making is a little bit confusing. In order not having the work of many good men destroyed I have to report your announced criminal act to the legal Norwegian authoryties hoping for the webmaster's assistance of revealing your mail address and IP number.
--
po

Have fun, you are just like the commie colaborators in Poland or Russia who helped the commies keep power, in the same way you collaborate with the socialists.

And it is even more fun that this wont help since my IP for where I am sitting right now will only get you to a very big student-bolig in Oslo with like 1000 people having the same region IP even the same exact number hahahah. And as for my mail its no problem to change it =D And as for the mail adress....well I can have 100 different mails.....

Its so funny when socialists think they can control people and tell them what to do when in reality they cant :lol: One day we will do the same as Franco in Spain with socialists and commies all over the world to ensure freedom for the people =D

Ok... Ok... You got Raul Castro seal of Disapproval.... :twisted:



http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3418/facepalm1o.jpg


:cheesy:

You missed my point, I guess. The ban of the csv in The Norwegian Dog Law was NOT related to political parties, rather the contrary. Btw one of my close friends is the former chairman of the Frp working group debating the law in our Government. I strongly advice you listening to her opinnion.
--
po

I just advice you to read the FrP program, and the main ideals of our political party. So you can read about freedom for the individual as long as it doesnt hamper other individuals freedom. So it will be like in USA harder punishment if someone dont take care of their dog so the dog bites someone but allowance to keep whatever dog you just like as long as you take care of the dog and keep it away from harming other individuals. This is the capitalist law and the one FrP follow too. Its the socialists who forbid things (ofc. they cant forbid import of dangerous muslims those are cool and socialists love them since AL Qaida fight against the big bad USA) and capitalists who allow things....everything from dogs to vodka for normal price.

I know much about the law in Norway and therefore I also know about "small laws" who are never kept like the one about drinking in public etc. or maybe they are kept in Oslo centrum but not in smaller cities. The same goes for the dogs no one would even /carezor about my dog......

Hmmm...I have "learned" so much about Norwegian politics from this site today. A dog breed site? Go figure. :lol:

Haha, I live in the USA "land of the free" - we have gone from left to right and back again in politics quite a few times in my lifetime. But, I can say it has had little effect on "breed specific law" which exists regardless of who is in power. Even the private sector places it's own "laws" on what breeds can be owned via homeowner's insurance.

I don't blame the politicians completely though - more so, I blame selfish, irresponsible owners for wanting mostly an image, and not realizing what they have taken into their home...and letting their dogs start problems and create a bad image for the breed (unfortunately, these owners seem to favor certain breeds, and wolf crosses)...

What make you think I don't? My eldest son was a former regional Frp chairman, was elected Frp member of our county council (fylkestinget) and member of Frp national organizational committee. But what do I know of political parties...

But what I dislike is fanatics - neither short minded, ignorant polictical ones nor the lobbyists who formed the Norwegian Dog Law. Grow up.
--
po

Hello again schoolboy, I just wont to inform you that Norway is not in the EU, at least not yet. But that is hard for you to know as you do not know anything about politics, as you sit up all night and talk about how to be a (good) criminal instead of study :rock_3

Now go to bed before you get grounded by mom, Here is your teddy bear :wolfie he’s name is wolfie I did think it be suitable as you wonted a "wolfie"

:sleeping / M

And still you love to help the socialist in the manner people did in commie nations by telling them that others "break their socialist law"......

There was a funny russian joke about such practice and how common it was: "A man asks his neighbour in the prison cell: For what did they inprison you? Man: "For being lazy" Asker: "What its impossible?" Man:"Well I sat with my neighbour at home and we told each other political jokes about the commies. It rained outside so I decided to stay home and go to the police next day. And the neighbour, he didnt care about the rain....."

And if you know so much about FrP then how can you deny that the party stand for freedom and that if it gains power then all kinds of dogs will be legal in addition to many other personal freedoms like freedom to buy alcohol for normal price.


And for Mikael: Well I know Norway is not in the EU but ever heard of Schengen or have you ever crossed the border between Norway and Sweden in Ørje or in sandvika close to Verdal in Nord-Trøndelag ?? There are no one on the border there and no one cares about dogs they look for drugs, vodka and beer if they look for something.... So dont worry I could get a real wolf imported if I just paid enough to buy a wolfcub and register it as a mix in Poland for example...but since I am responsible I dont want or need a real wolf and a CSV will do perfectly.

First of all: this is a forum for csv owners and lovers of the breed. Not a forum for political discussions. There are other foras for that.
--
po

Yeah but aint the politicians the problem with having a CSV in peace in Norway. If the socialists are the problem for the breed then its suitable to write here about this.

If politicians forbid vodka in Norway then people will write about it on a vodka forum, the same applies to CSV. The politicians have forbidden norwegian people to own this dog just because they want to do so....since there are no cases where a CSV killed someone etc. like with pitbulls etc. At the same time they dont care about mix dogs so why in all hells cant people just "forget" where their dog came from and register it as a mix since actually all dogs are mixes of something just the race ones are selected before breeding.

Funny that the government cant forbid people from certain more violent nations just in the same way they forbid certain dogs some without reason =D

So the best way to dont give a damn about the socialist law is to register a dog as a mix until more liberal politicians take over in 2013. And I cant understand how someone who claims to like dogs can even try to get the governments attention to me and the dog that I will have......happily its an impossible task.

I will have it officially as a mix dog born in Norway and no one will be able to prove me wrong after the dog have crossed the norwegian border. Since then I can just burn the documents about the dog and claim that its a dog born here in Norway as a husky and something else mix. And no neighbour or anyone else who aint very, very good dog specialist will even think that I am not telling the truth. And both me and the dog will live in peace in Norway with no one caring about it.....

I absolutely agree.

XaedasKSP, seems you have nothing else in mind than an antipathy to socialists and a sympathy for cheap vodka. Obviously you want to revolt a bit at the cost of a CSV. I think you´re not a serious dialogue partner. Bye!

Maybe, people from certain violent nations commonly comes to Norway for find peace and life quality which they don't have in their mother country, then, even the govern commonly wait of these people dont find problems in Norway, which is worldwide known by its huge quality of life.
Remembering also that normally those "more violent nation", well known in what people call "third world", are normally in the south and centrum of the globe, in more warm countries, so if someone from those places are really decided to live in Norway, which is cold and you really need to work for live, they will not be what we can call "lost people" which had go to another country with the hope of magically try a new and worthy life without barely know the alphabet, like you can easily meet in USA.
It seems that your govern, like the Canadian one, asks for people from those "violent places" to come and work there because the lack of people to do it, people which the "third world countries" are full.

Dogs will not travel to a different country for run away of something, for find a new and worthy life neither they work for your country (except police and rescue dogs), a owner will bring the dog because he wants, who is this owner nobody knows, maybe someone very kind and wise like Per Olav, maybe some maniac which only wants to have an wolf for show to his friends his new "pet" or fulfill his "dream", maybe someone who wants win some money selling puppies for who pay, without worrie about who will be the owner and how much prepared this person is.

Looking by this point, it turns your comparison a nonsense.

I really dont agree with BSL rules, they're unfair and normally a nonsense, BSL rules are common and some countries (old socialists or completly capitalists :lol:) have it, in some countries it work, in some others its simply governamental utopy, for dont say one fail way to get more votes, so it not work.
In Norway it seems work strongly than we can even imagine, its only you see the sad and tragic case of Majlo , don't try to said that he had problems because he is a Staff and different of CzW everyones is able to uncover a staff but not a CzW, CzW is a dog breed with FCI standard, a dog which follow a internationally standard of tipicity, it means that everyone that's a little bit informed can discouver that what you have is an CzW and not a mix, so you will have a dog in the same nightmare as Majlo.
I warn about it because the breed was pretty involved in the law and seems that was well comented on Norway, it means that after it some people, principally who works controlling it had at least to get informed about the breed, how to recognize, more information about character and so on. No doubts bring a CzW like a mix or whatever dog or animal will be dangerous for the dog, so who in good concience will risk a innocent life for had an "exotic forbidden pet"? It make less sense than the BSL law which we all hate.

If you want to do something, better would be if you use all your energy for help Per Olav in try to change the situation. When the law change you can have your CzW without worrie about laws.

My advice is don't ever think of it. Never. For your info a false pedigree or papers won't help. Last year a number of Amstaff's was taken into custody on the police's suspicion of illegally imported with falsefied pedigrees or papers showing the dogs were mixes of other breeds but Amstaff. Some were put to death, other are still in custody at the expence of the owners. If you really want to improve the situation of the csv in Norway there are others ways of doing it - not by acting as an irresponsible owner for the sake of your own.
--
po

Well what neither you or Per Olav understand although he should do since he lives in Norway and claims to know the politics very well is that this whole "try to change the law" thing is doomed to failure or to at least take 30 years to complete as long socialists rule.

Havent you heard about the last case in Norway about the biodiesel tax? Well the SV(ine) socialist party said they are against the tax while they signed the budget with the tax included and then afterwards they said they are against the tax and just signed wrong....but what happend? "Well we are sorry we cant change anything right now even as we are against the tax, we have signed already so there is no way back the tax is law now" that kind of answer.......or just look at the cars it took like 8 years to change ONE thing changing the tax from the volume tax to a CO2 tax and this was something important that the socialists actually "worked" with.

So how much time do you thing they will care about the dog cause and how much will they care to change anything even if you convince them that you are right ? Socialist beaurocracy is really a very big machine, thats hard to change. They will just tell you something like: "We are sorry that we banned this dog, maybe this shouldnt have been done so fast but there were people telling us different things etc. But now we have already signed the ban so we cant do anything about it right now come back next year and we will see what we can do"

Then you come next year and the answer is: "Well we wanted to legalize the race but then someone came to us and told us to do not since its dangerous so we must look a little more on the info to take the decision, we are really sorry etc."

And thats the socialist way of solving the problem, the result is that you can wait forever and get no result, while people who want to have such a dog can only get it by using the socialist own weapon and getting papers that the dog is a mix. As beaurocracy lovers socialists are happy when someone show them a paper with a stamp no matter what is written there as long as the paper got a true stamp from proper authority.....

People cant just sit and wait and hope that in 2013 it will be enough with those 30 000 votes that we got more in the election in 2009 than the socialist side will be enough to get more mandates in the Storting. I want to have a CSV and no socialist shall be able to tell me that I cant....if all people followed the law then there would be communism in whole eastern europe today, and not a single jew in europe would have survived holocaust. Good things are results of walking around stupid laws made by socialists, commies or national socialists.

Maybe if there were 1000 CSVs in Norway registered as mix then some beaurocrates would care to use their time to change the documents and allow CSV in Norway......since I guess that the populistic socialists wouldnt dare to put 1000 dogs into a gaschamber and lose the votes of anyone who likes animals in Norway.....

Obviously you don't have the faintest idea of how democracy works. Grow up at get some knowledge or at least show some interrest in e g supporting the Norwegian Kennel Klub and its partners in changing the law.

And ending this discussion with you: May I remind you that the slogan of your party is "The Law and Order Party" - not "The Breaking the Law and Order Party".

A link to this discussion is sent to the hq of your party requesting if it's commonly accepted by the party chairmanship that its members on a international public forum do name the party's political opponents apes and swine.
--
po

Well most debatants on for example sol.no or else places say SV(in) and AP(e) since the hate of socialism have grown to new levels between people who have had to tolerate socialist government for really long period of time and their missed decisions. Ofc. we dont do it officially in debates.

And as for the changing of law in a democracy I know perfectly how it works, its possible via an election once in 4 years and the last one failed even when the right side had 30 000 more votes. Its ofcourse also possible to make small changes via lobbies etc. But if it takes like 8 years to do a small change to the car tax law, and if it is possible that "mistakes" like signing an extra biodiesel tax law happen. Then how can you believe that this socialist government will care to use their time on changing the law upon dogs, the best proof of this is that you said they made the dog forbidden in 2003 or something like that and now there is 2009. And what have you achieved in those years ? And how can you tell that you will achieve anything more in the next 5 years if the government doesnt change?

:klatsch:bussi

And I would like to add some suggestions: There are more important animal issues in your country than if you are able to keep a CSW to show of, for example wolf-hunting and whale-hunting out of questionable reasons.

A good thing to spend your political energy on, if you change the countries point of view on wolves you will very likely find it very easy to change the point of view on wolfdogs. But of course you won´t have any personal profit out of it and won´t be very popular especially in conservative groups.

I fully agree with Rona, an intelligent dog needs an intelligent owner, you shouldn´t get yourself one in the moment.

Ina

Just one last comment :) A law might be changed at any time. You don't need an election of doing that. No law is changed by elections but on demand when the law obviously is based on misleading, false, failing or lack of background information, is outdated according to changes in public affairs etc - this fact is learned by every pupil at primary school stage. Reading your arguments I feel ashamed of beeing a country fellow man of you.

Per Olav, I fully emphatize with you. I feel ashamed of being a nation fellow of his. :cry:

And I fell ashame to know he have the same age as me. :heul After that I will start to hide this information. :lol:


PS: He hates comunists so much, but he wants a "comunist" dog breed... what paradox :twisted:

:lol::lol::lol:
He knows very little about CSVs ;) He wrote on the Polish forum, that he will present the photos of his wolfdog and keep the breeder's name secret :roflmao Apparently he's not aware how the WD database works 8)

Well first of all I asked what have you achieved in all those years since 2003 by all of this hard work ? Nothing? Well then its more than obvious that the current government wont change anything no matter what you tell them if they havent done it in all those years. So it will take an another different government to change something.

As for the communist dog breed, well I really doubt that the persons who created the breed were really believing in communism and werent just forced to say they did all the breeding work in the name of communism, just like scientists were forced to work for the commies and all their achievments were counted for the glory of communism, like space rockets etc.

And if even Stalin, Lenin or Trotsky himself (dunno who is the greatest commie/socialist hero, since some commies say Stalin wasnt commie) had crossed the german sheperd with the carpathian wolf, then the dog wouldnt still be a commie dog....since the commies havent invented the german sheperd or the carpathian wolf.

BTW here is something that commies/socialists invented with dogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSrIkUXwsNk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj2SKJFQpI8

For all you socialism lovers, thats the socialist way of "inventing dogs".....

And as for the pictures of the dog....well have fun guessing where the dog is bought when I get the dog and post the picture...

And I'm guessing he knows lesser of computers. You don't "hide" by operating inside a network. Every IP-address, log on and log off is recorded and time stamped.

PS. Rona - When addressing our authoryties I'd like to record his activity on the Polish forum. A nickname by PM please :)
--
po

Well if you can track my IP and by this find out exactly where I live and who I am then come on go ask the police or who you are gonna ask to do it (I guess you will see its not so easy as you think) , it will be a nice cause to show people in Norway about how the socialist government can control us even on the net and monitor us all the time so we cant have private life....

BTW why dont you tell us what you have achieved by many years of hard work and when we can expect the Storting to vote about changing the law or when will "statsråder" even rethink the law.

I suppose you never heard of Echelon or the EU Data Storage Directive ( EU-direktiv 2006/24/EF) commented in Norwegian on Wiki?

Changing a law is not easily done as everyone should know. Neither is it our Members of Parliament the people who do the "rethinking". I strongly advice you to get some knowledge of how democracy works and how making laws and changing laws is done.
--
po

Dear Admin,
Could you please punish XaedasKSP for spamming TWO wofdog forums with irrelevant, political posts?

Although I've got a remarkable record of struggling with communism in Poland long before this ignorant, cynical boy was born, I consider his obsessive 'political' writing noxious. :lol:

Who is for?:)

Both hands above my head and my feet are struggling to follow :)
--
po

As long as the politics are the ones preventing people in normally keeping CSV in Norway then its absolutely relevant to discuss it....

Especially when one member of the forum claims he is working on chaning the law in Norway and an another one claims that the CSV is created by communists and therefore a "communist dog" then I have to be allowed to answer both of them. Since what is being debated here is a strictly connected to the politics....

And I see you have been taught in this "struggle" that cenzorship is a very nice method of silencing people who say something against the governmental practice? Wonder how you struggled.....by watching what people do and reporting it to the closest "milicja-station" or ZOMO ?

Admin will hopefully understand that when people come with political based arguments to me then I have to answer them politically too. And isnt this part of the forum named Clubs & law ?? Law is based on politics....let us have freedom of speech!

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/719...efacepalm2.jpg




Of course, for Captain Picard sake... 7 days frozen as warn , if Admin dont kick him out first, next time of this behaviour I will ban him forever.

------------------------
Now 3 weeks because the clone, next and will be forever.

Thanks :p
--
po

I vote yes to…. :thumbs god I like democracy :lol:

By by Schoolboy :hand

Thanks Nebb good work :klatsch

Very best regards / Mikael

Ok since the forum is politically cenzored then I shall not post anything more about politics. (But I have to just commend that "Per Olav" himself on his homepage that he was referring to, have written that the person who wished to revote the law in order to get the CzWs banned in Norway was Kristin Halvorsen the leader of SV (Sosialistisk Venstreparti) and first then CzWs became banned. So to say that its not a case of right or left side of politics is strange after personally writing about who pushed on to get the law about banning CzW, but I shall not write more about politics this is the last thing I had to say just so you know that banning me was unfair)

Ah and as for you Mikael, well as much as I wish I could say in direct words what I think, I shall not do it since responding to your post would probably get me banned 10xtimes....

As for the case of the dog, then I have found a perfect solution, the Saarloos Wolfhond which is 100 % legal in Norway. This way I can have a "wolfie" and have it legally, in addition after I have read more about this race I found out that its even better for the place where I live than a CzW.

In addition I think that you could edit the title of the thread since it suggests that Saarloos is to banned in Norway while this is not the case and people who look on the forum might get confused and think that both of the races are banned. Instead it could be an idea to inform about SW and that its legal in Norway so people who live in Norway and want a CzW can read about the less known race of SWs and see if they maybe can be just as happy owning a SW like they would be with a CzW.

Since SWs are a much more rare race than CzW from what I have found out then, there should be some information about them here instead of the confusing title telling that both dogs are banned in Norway which is not true. People who are looking for a wolfdog do most often find the CzW as the first result and absolutely no info about SW and then they dont know that it is possible to have a wolfdog legally in Norway and that this possibility is the SW (all wolfhybrids and other wolfmixes are actually too illegal like the CzW so SW is the only option in Norway).

I don't want to debate your misunderstanding any more. If you cut and focus on one single statement from a seven page contex anything can be "proven". Even if most debated, the Norwegian ban of named breeds was a minor issue of the law as a whole. And as I've earlier written - the reason of banning the csv was not a political one but the law itself was a political issue as its existence is a matter of debate and the voting of the Members of our Parliament and NOT depending on the confused opinnon of the chairman of a single political party.

This thread started back in 2002 when a ban on both breeds was discussed. By following the thread you'll see how the matter developed and how the csv became the single target by groups of special interrest. The SW was just on the edge of beeing banned and still might be.

No one have ever expressed the SW as a banned breed of Norway. On the contrary the legal keeping of sw has been mentioned in this thread as well as in others.

The main purpose of this site is discussing the csv - not SW nor Norwegian laws. Myself I'm quite horrified by your writing. Do you really want to keep a rare breed like a sw just because of its wolfie look and its "rareness" and for no other purpose but that?

I suppose you are informed that our law is stating that if any negative incident (no matter where) made by sw is observed by our authorities the legal keeping of it may be reconsidered. Sad to say - based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour you're in my opinnion not the right person to keep neither a csv nor a sw and I do hope no one ever will sell you one 'cause this might be hazzardous for the future of the handfull sw individals remaining in this country and the work of many good people fighting for a remake of the law made by responsible persons with knowledge of dogs.
--
po

Yes I know that the thread was started in 2002 and that if someone read the whole thread carefully then he/she can find out that SWs are not banned in Norway.

But I just thought about the "random user" who will find this page and this forum looking for a wolfdog. And then if that user even ever heard of a SW (which is much less known as the CzW) when seeing this title might think that both races are banned....if he/she dont study the whole thread carefully. As for the purpose of the site well its still called "wolfdog.org" and there are forum parts about "other wolfdogs" and this forum part is about the law so its being discussed here.....

As for the law, well it looks like the government have iced the whole case, and since its totally not logic to ban dogs that havent been involved in any accidents while dogs like rotweilers can create "accident" after "accident" and no one cares....another proof of this is that even norwegian breeders are starting to breed SWs again and there will probably be SW litter in Norway in february 2010 (ofc. they like extra special price in Norway (even as for norway), nearly 3000 euro, which I would actually pay but lucky for me I found a breeder in germany who have already got a litter that is just waiting to become 8 weeks and a normal price of 1000 euros) so it looks like the plans of a ban are long forgotten in the shadow of history.

And as for me I dont want to keep a rare breed cause its rare, I would just as much wish to have a wolfdog if everyone in the world owned one. When I refer to it as "wolfie" then its because I really like wolfes and the wolflook of SWs and CzWs makes them really beautiful in my eyes. And if you read the history of the SW then you find out that one of the purposes of the breeders of the race was "the wolfie look" so the highly competent breeders have made the dog become more "wolfie" than the original inventor of the race did. And the dog is classified as "company dog" race, unlike the CzW that is listed as "working dog" race.

As for the liknesses in character of the SW and CzW they are extremly many if you read the official character description of the dogs. The main difference is that SW is more shy and it cant work in the police for example. And SW is actually an even more suitable race for someone who live in an area with not too many people in the closest neighbourhood and close to forests. I have carefully read the official descriptions of the characters of the both races and if you do that too then you will find out that very many people who just know about the more popular CzW could have an SW which actually could suit their situation even better, since there are few people who buy a CzW because they want to train it like a police dog. Shyness of a dog is probably totally ok for a dog that is meant to be a family dog. In any case those dogs are not extremly different, both in presence and character.

"based on your ignorant, respectless and immature behaviour" ahh well if you think this cause of my political expressions well.......I am not surprised most of the left side do say this about their opponents as persons too and not only about the politics itself, but I shall not discuss it longer since politics are not allowed here as I see, but I had to just respond to this "personal attack" made in the style of "your opponent" Ben Werner that you write so much about on your homepage.

As for my keeping of SW well I will watch the dog carefully enough to dont let any accident happen, and from what I know about dogs accidents got much bigger chance of happening with a Rotweiler or even a German sheperd than with a SW which is all the time described as a shy dog.

And as for the SW I have already got a deal about getting a pup I am just waiting for it to become 8 weeks, and its not bought in Norway, but there shall also be Saarloos pups in Norway in February 2010 maybe even 2 litters are planned for 2010 from what I have heard (since there are already 11 people on the waitlist for a pup in Norway even before the pups are born) so there will be definitly more Saarlooses in Norway than just a "handfull". And I think this can just HELP the case of CsV getting allowed since if the government will care too look. Since they will se that SWs function perfectly well in Norway even when there are more dogs than "a handfull". So then they will probably think that it can go well too with CSV if it becomes legal.

It's no personal attack, look at your prev postings and what others have responded to your writings. And I must say if every right winged do express themselves like you do I'll consider changing my political platform.

As for Mr Werner who years ago participated in some discussions on this forum no attack is published on my home page, but like other "advisors" to our Ministry of Justice a summary of some of his writing is refered and well documented on my home page as well as on others. You also find a resumé of this made by the Kennel Klub etc.

And hereby I perfer to end my discussion with you on this subject and no more Pm's please :)
--
po

Yes I do see what others have responded but you can also see in those responses like for example Mikaels ones that they got political views on the "left side".....they were also based on the fact that people thought it could be dangerous for the dog that is not allowed in Norway to live here.

And your response came after I said that I resign from breaking any laws etc. so it shall not be dangerous for the dog and that I am going to get a SW instead of CSV. For example on the polish forum after I wrote this I havent got any negative reply just positive replies and congratulations for the right decision and finding a Saarloos that I can get. I dont know if this might be caused by the fact that most people in Poland different to those in Scandinavia dont like the "left side" of politics (since many people in Poland have experienced the "dark side" of the left side on their own skin) but I shall not discuss the politics here since its not allowed. But I must be allowed to express that I think that most of the negative replies against me here were based more on the political point of view "that made me unsuited" in their eyes to own a wolfdog.

Either way I had to respond to those "attacks". Now I shall get over to the wolfdog part of the forum and rather create an informative thread about the SW and where people can find the breeders so they wont need to search as much as I did to find a SW breeder who got litters or is planning litters soon. And also get some more info about the race that is legal wolfdog alternative in Norway + general info since I think many people only know about the CSV and dont have any idea that there do exist another wolfdog race that from the character description can maybe be even more suitable as pure "familiy dog".

I wish you good luck with trying to lift the CSV ban in Norway and I hope that if it get lifted after the government change in 2013 I will not get banned for explaining the political right-left reason of it in a thread that is about the law and as we all know law is made by politics.

Ahh and since you added something to your post I have to respond to this too (I hope I dont get banned for answering politics with politics), well if you really wasnt on the left side of the platform as you suggest here then you would probably never tell everyone that this case had nothing to do with the left or right of politics. Since its clearly expressed even on your homepage that it was SV who pushed on to get the ban (probably traded it off for their votes on some other case that the other parties wanted to achieve) after the ban wasnt achieved in the first voting in the "Storting". Every political party must be responsible for what laws they are pushing on to achieve and it isnt possible to say. "Yes they made the law become reality, but you cant say its their political view".

You still don't understand, do you?

Why do you think there a no sw breeders in Norway anymore. Why are sw seldom seen on Norwegian dog shows? Why are Norwegian sw owners not seen on Norwegian foras and why do they keep a very low profile not to say beeing totally absent in any debate regarding dogs and dog law? Why do you think two sws were poisoned inside the owners dog yard?

Who will ever sell a wolfdog to an unexperienced owner not knowing what kind of trouble he or she might face?
--
po

If you read my post carefully then you would read that there is a norwegian breeder of Saarlooses that will start breeding them with first litter planned for February 2010 and there will be at least 2 litters in 2010 and there are already 11 reserved pups even before any pup is born. So there will soon be many more Saarlooses in Norway. So I dunno who dont understand....

I shall not buy my SW there since I found a breeder outside Norway who have already got a litter of SW that are already born and I reserved a beautiful pup there that I will import with the allowance from "mattilsynet" when it becomes 8 weeks. In addition everything will be much much cheaper, so I shall not wait on the litter in Norway then.

As for the attacks against dogs, well a "villager" (dunno how bonde is translated to english, my bad) shot someones hunting dog just because the dog ran over his potato field where he sometimes had his sheep. So all dogs can get in danger in Norway if the owner let the dog run without leash in the city or close to any human settlement. Its no special crusade against SWs here.

As for my dogexperience well maybe you are a clearvoyant so you know exactly what experience people have with dogs even when they dont say anything about it. But in the case you are not, then I would like to say that I have in 14 years had experience with a German Sheperd that my family had, so I am not unexperienced. But of course I dont claim to be a "dog master" like many of you probably are or think so. Therefore I shall be very careful with my dog and always keep an eye on him when outside of my possesion and hold it on a leash even in the forest close to my place. Only in uninhabited mountain terrain (far, far away from potatofields and "villagers") I shall let the dog run without the leash or on my private possesion.

I'm fully aware of that and also fully aware of what this breeder is facing.

Beeing a student aged 23 by now I fully understand your expertice, Myself I've been owner, dog trainer and rescue dog trainer of working breed GSD's and Belgian Sheperds close to 40 years.. But a csv is no German shepherd or a Belgian Shepherd. Neither is a saarloos.
--
po

I do know it perfectly that neither a Saarloos or a CSV is a German Sheperd (although they do actually have som GSD blood :P). And as for the dogexperience well your dogexperience is of course very long and probably you know what to do with your dogs. But still when you got your first CSV it still wasnt a german sheperd or a belgian sheperd that you have worked with before.

So there have to be the first time with a Saarloos or with a CSV, cause if CSV/SW experience were required to own a SW or CSV then there would be no new owners of those dogs, and even you wouldnt get the one you have :P So I think it is possible to own a SW and suceed with it. It will just require much carefullness and time spent with the dog and teaching the dog in the manner that SW breeder advise.

Ofc. someone who has 40 years experience is better suited to own such a dog but I really doubt if such long experience is required to own a SW or CSV ;)

Ah and just a small correction I am a student aged 21...but I dont think age have something to do with ability to handle a SW, I think that the most importand thing is the amount of time that people have to take care of the dog and to teach it the right behaviour in a proper way. Right now I am trying to get all the possible literature upon Saarlooses and how to properly teach a Saarloos the correct behaviour. Since I guess it will be a harder task than teaching a German Sheperd.

IMHO you are still missing the most important matter. I don't write about what is possible in training but of peoples attitude. As a devoted dog trainer you can achieve almost anything you want but you can't change someones prejustice and attitude against the breeds. That's what caused the ban on the csv and pushing the sw to the edge of it. The more wolfdogs and more inexperienced owners overseeing that fact - the more certain a ban on the breed may be foreseen.
--
po

:sleeping

BTW, I did send e-mails to ALL Saarloos kennels today, warning them and linking to this topic :lol: good luck ;-)

Sorry but you are wrong as always ;-) I vote 100% Moderaterna, that is the right side... :lol:

Love you to :santagrin Best regards / Mikael

Yes I know that there are many people in Norway who might not like the breed although I have in person met no one who hate wolves only on debate forums and on internet never face to face.

But the existence of those people cant make us not have Saarlooses, and the best example of not caring about those few people shouting high is the breeder who breed saarlooses and until now from what I have heard from the breeder she havent had any problems with anyone who dont like the dogs....

What I think you mean is that inexperienced owners can lead to "accidents" and that can be prevented by training, being carefull and using time on the dog. And even if the governement for some strange reason would ban SWs then my dog will be perfectly safe since they cant kill the dogs that are already legally in Norway. Just as they allowed you too keep the CSV.

And other peoples prejustice if there exist wont have any influence on my dog.....since both me and the dog is protected by law actually.

And as for Mikael: well since I cant answer you in the manner I wish to on this forum I shall skip it and rather talk about in a more political forum. And as for your earlier comment you said ":lol: Do not be to sure about that, way do you think they just lost :wink: It looks like all people in Norway do not think like you, thank god." so if you are happy that FrP and the "right side" lost then you can definitly not be on the "right side" yourself. (The political talk I do here is just answering others talking politically to me, so I cant be banned for that unless they too get banned).


And I congratulate you on doing the hard work of finding all the Saarloos kennels in Europe it really takes some time since they are not easy to find.
Sadly for you it all is in vain :lol: since I have already reserved my dog and everything is already booked I have even called the "mattilsynet" about getting import allowance. So sadly for you the breeder isnt a socialist ***** ** **** (sadly I cant express what I wish since politics are forbidden here) and understand that the dog will have a very nice life at my place with all it can ever need. And it is 100 % legal so no matter how unhappy you are that I have realised my dream there is nothing you can do about it.....