I quite agree I would have no problem about having a contract for only breeding with uther CSD:)... If this meens Getting a new dogs into the country im sure most people would be happy with it and if they wernt, dont sell to them.....

What is AI?

Breeding contracts are a nice thing but don´t help in the end because we talk about different countries what makes legal action very difficult. And if the contract is broken there are several mixed puppies causing more problems.

I don´t think serious people will have a problem finding new blood. But this would mean:

1. to look for good puppies all over Europe not just next door or in the next country.

2. Go to meetings, visit breeders, get informed especially in the countries of origin (and both of them) and in countries that follow their rules. Go to special Club shows with qualified judges and to bonitations.
You won´t have a problem to get new blood if people see you care for that and you will meet good breeders there.

3. Not to think that it is enough to buy a few dogs and breed in your own country. That won´t work. I you are serious to build up proper breeding you will have to travel a lot for mating, bonitations and shows. Travel to the other end of Europe when necessary, and it will be necessary very often.

4. Not to follow some "specialists" in your own country but to make up your mind and to learn by yourself, what only works following 2.

All of this will take years, a lot of time and a lot of money but for me it is the only way. I wouldn´t mind to sell a puppy to GB if I would know the person and would see he cares and knows his breed.

Ina

I think it means artificial insemination? In Slovak breeding rules I think it is allowed and I can see that there might be occasion where AI would be beneficial, but it always should be used only if normal breeding is out of the question (like breeding bitch by male from another continent).

Yes, that's exactly what I meant in my previous post.

Ina,

If it has to take years then so be it. All great things are worth the wait.

I like the idea of potential owners and breeders visiting the shows and perhaps having visits to the larger European kennels, maybe that's a possibility?

hi steven ferguson from scotland sat in my house and signed an agreement which my wife witnessed that he would never cross bred his cwd he also signed that the dog was for him and not being sold on to third party, he cross bred the dog after 1 yr, so a contract is not worth the paper it is written on, i could go to scotland and take the dog, but then i end up in prison, the only reason i do not go and take the dog is because i have wife and two young children to think of, so if you read this steven think yourself lucky i have much to loose or i would be at your door for my dog,, it is possable to AI in uk with premission of the kennel club,,,,

In my opinion that is the only way to get a good dog from a good breeder no matter what breed you want to buy. And I wouldn´t go for the larger kennels but to the kennels with the best dogs and the most satisfied puppyowners, who you get to know on meetings. The largest ones are not necessarily the best ones - though they can be.

Ina

my personal opinion is only cross cwd with pure wolf to help with new blood line, and i think if put to any kennell club they will agree to this as long as you come away again by mybe 4-5 generations, but to breed to the so called inuit that after all are not even a classified breed of dog yet, but breeders have showen through there ignorance and lack of breeding knowledge that all they have produced so far after many years are dogs that now have major health problems, they have not produced type after all these years, hardly two dogs look the same yet they have a club and give a breed standard,,,,??????? so of what use could they ever be to the cwd, none at all, i brought the first czech to uk, had first litter, and all mew owners promised never to use my pups to cross breed, i spent further 5 yrs getting law changed in uk so others could own and enjoy this fantastic breed of dog, someone one day will do a cross breeding that will result in someone getting hurt or mauled and guess what dog will get the blame and once again be classed as a dangerous wild animal,,,,, you got it the cwd,,,, and now the people who cross bred wait on me to get the cwd recognised by the k.c. because if i dont register my first litter then the cwd will not get registration in uk for many many years as there will not be enough dogs, i have no interest in cross bred cwd only with wolf for to better the lines, INA and co dont agree they must think its ok to have so high percent inbreeding in the cwd lines over so short generations but it cant get better unless we have new blood lines, i bring my cwd bitchs to be mated but still the inbreeding is high on percentage, i will breed down from the wolf and my cwd but i will never regiister the pups, i will keep record only for what i do, in short time i will be back to bred true and i will show my dogs photos to all, and there will be new blood line for people interested in saving the breed, i use the european wolf only, look at the wolfdogs from different countries, there is a difference in appearence, charater and type, WHY? if all our pure cwd why is this happening to the breed? health issues will arrise in all breed but in the cwd over last 5-6 yrs look at all the topics in posts, eyes, epilepsy, dwarf, and more, the futer of the breed is in the hands of the breeders most of who are in europe SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT ??????????? What future plans, new bloodline? are clubs talking together to see for the future of the breed or is every one waiting till it end up to late,, this is a registered cwd ARTEMIS TESTAMONIUM DIABOLI is this within breed standard, is this the future of what is to come, the breed is declining in type rapidly throughout Europe and its all on this web site for all to see, kennel blind is not an excuse for not taking action, I REST MY CASE......pacino

who is the breeder? why do they turn you down?

hi Laura i have turned down two people this week for cwd puppy, one person as they already owned lots of dogs and they have full time job, the other i turned down because they where banned from owning dogs for 5 yrs by the courts, it sounds like you have been turned down as it seems the inuit people what to improve there dogs with cwd cross, if this is the case then it would be easier to get a cwd x inuit for the cross breeders are knocking them out enough in the uk and charging plenty for them as well, there are lots of people advertising them, pacino

Hi Farena i exported two cwd to Spain last year they are doing well and live in area just outside Alicnate, I lived in La Hoya about 19 k from Alicante for two years, i love the Spannish why of life it reminds me of home in Ireland everything is so laid back and easy going, I have many great Spannish friends who i visit every year, i think maybe this year when the dogs are over two years my friends will breed, we will use stud dog from other friends in Europe so hopefully this year there will be some more cwd in Spain,,, best regards from uk paul and mandy

Pacino, no sane kennel club will agree to that in present time and circumstance. We have enough animals to breed with, and we could be much better off if only breeders would go along with a plan or at least would follow at least some rules, like using only bonitated and X rayed dogs, ideally with at least some kind of work/sports exam. The largest problem in my opinion is that in lots of countries people are just breeding their dogs as they like, but as they are not experienced judges of exterior or character, they create animals which are actually not very usable for regulated breeding, because they don't follow standard and we don't know anything about their background. And if there is even small chance that they actually used saarloos or inuit or anything else and faked the documentation, then these animals are actually out of the gentic pool available for us.

But I agree...WHEN ???

And way is there no CSV BLOODLINE FUNDATION for all breeders to put money into after every litter if they wont ??? maby like 5% / litter, and maby (wee) will have money to make some new bloodlines in the future...

Best regards / Mikael

Do you have a European wolf as well? Just curious.

Paul,

I can see the logic in introducing new blood in the form of a pure European wolf to improve the breed but my only question would be, where would the high wolf content offspring end up? Obviously they wouldn't be classed as 'pets'.

I do disagree with one of your comments regarding no two inuit/inuit type dogs looking alike. One Devon breeder has definitely bred alot of very similar looking pups and dogs and often you'd be hard pushed to tell that they weren't pure bred.

Sory, but now you make only mix and pet, and not help to breed, but play God.
This cann make SK club and not others. Yours dog all thime be only mix and not be real pure CSW and now and 10 or more year latter.
and You and others from UK make big eyes when breeder not wish sale for UK pupps.

i dont breed or cross breed but i want to bread mine next year, just becouse there are a few breeders that do dusnt mean we all will or do. dont tell me that there isnt any breeders out side the uk who has never cross bread . just becouse some do dont ruin it for the rest of us. seems to me u just dont want them over here for your own interests. maybe u dont get on with one or two of the breaders over here, thats your problem but dont take it out on the rest of the people over here.....:twisted:

If you are not a breeder, someone else must have made this post in your name(look at the bottom of the page) :
http://www.k9puppy.co.uk/Breeders/WolfDog.aspx

Greetings Rolf

very personely reaction :) maybe ...:rock_3
I reply to this "breeder" who say: "i use the european wolf only"

thats not me...... my real name is lee, tikanni is just a name i use on here and im from bedford, bedfordshire england uk. i only have 2 dogs and there both 1 year old so i wouldnt be able to of bread them , so def not me....

Ok ! Just a funny coincidence then...

Greetings Rolf

not realy, tikaani means wolf so a lot of people use it on sites... i work at anglian wolf society so trust me i wouldnt be travalin that distance every day to work, and if you still dont belive me ill send you my phone number so you can call me so you can check the area code on it.... its a bit silly thinkin that just becouse some one uses that name they must be the same person, like me thinkin that every one on here with the same name must be the same person, the uk aint that small.....

Please sit down and drink a cup of tea :kaffee
First of all you really don`t have to explain your self, you already stated that it is not you, should I have any reason not to trust what you say ?:shock:
I have never heard this name before(and I am sure many other people never have too) and thought of it as an unusual name, so ofcourse I thought it was the same person.
...I think it is a bit silly of you to get all jumpy about it, just because of a simple statement, who acually stated that if it was not you it must be someone who use the same name :roll:
...maybe Uk aint that small but some of you over there sure get all jumpy about nothing ! ;-)

Greetings Rolf

Did nobody think that this was a good ide :( ???

Or do you think that the Cz and SL clubs will pay for it ??? then dream on...:lol:

Best regards / Mikael

just seems people on here like too have a go all the time, i know some people on here have problems with certine people from the uk but thats between them, every time i have posted nice, normal topics on here people end up arguing and moning, so if i seem a bit funny about remarks then thats why, its a shame people couldnt get on, on here and help one unuther but it seems there more interested in having a go at one unuther insted of helping each uther

I don`t mind arguing ...if it is constructive and not just pointing fingers at eachother ;-) Posts from me will never be a personal attack, I rather ignorre persons I really don`t like, but that is just my way of dealing with it !

Greetings Rolf

Mikael I really don`t think money is the issue, but politic is :rock_3
...and as Slovakia have the patronage of the breed it is the Slovakian club who decides if or when new lines will be a reality, but I agree that it is better to prevent than to repair ;-)

Greetings Rolf

But if they have the money, what is the political problem ???
And way this delay, the sooner the better,
because this will take time to do...maby 12-16 years :ehmmm I think...

Best regards / Mikael

I don't totally understand your post. I think if breeders intoduce CsV and Saarloos to their current Inuit stock they will have a very different looking breed in 5 years time, the dogs will have a type. Remember that the CsV started out as a cross. Even now, when explaining the breed you still hear, wolf x GSD.

Discussing and debating, nobody should be arguing.

Can you elaborate please.

Well, for myself I can say that this would not be true. I don't have other breeding interests, than to give pups to good hands and to see my pups as parents of next generation.
But I must say that sometimes I am not sure if I like wolfdogs being bred in other countries - the reasons I stated before - there are pups produced from parents who do not correspond to the breed standard, there are wolfdogs which are shy and not able to be among people, and there are people who breed with other breeds or even mixes/wolves and falsify the parentage of ther pups, and I am not sure if I can trust them.

So I have mixed feelings - on one hand, I am very happy that people around the world appreciate this breed's great qualities (and consider them positive as I do), that there are people willing to spare a lot of time and money to be with these creatures, but on the other hand I am scared where they are taking it later. I actually don't understand why some countries like Slovakia or Czech republic have strict breeding rules (which are put upon us from the kennel union representing FCI), while in other countries people can do what they want and still their papers have the same value for public as ours.

Surely if they don't meet the requirements of the breed standard, before the mating of such dogs takes place, the clubs should make it clear that anything bred from those will not be registered. If the offspring are not registered, there is little or no point at all in breeding from them.

Agree totaly, and I do not understand way it is not the same for HD in all FCI contrys,
but the bonitation might still bee hard in some contrys...

Best regards / Mikael

Yes, I did think money might be the problem way nothing is happening,
but maby I was wrong ???

But still... some people are mad about that there is no new bloodline,
but are they ready to help ? by money or work ???

Regards / Mikael

I think there is many problems(maybe it is just me), but here I will mention just a few of them :
Who will supervise the breeding program and have control with all puppies ? Who will have space, time and experience enough to have F1/F2/F3 puppies and to train with them and who will approve these people ? Which CSW`s/wolves/German shepherds should be used to make this new line or should there only be introduced new wolfblood ? Which F1/F2/F3 puppies should be used in the breeding(what will be the limits for exterier/character/training) and who will be jugde for this ? Should there be somekind of legal contract for F1/F2/F3-puppy owners to be a part of the breeding-program and how to make such a contract who accually will work in all countries ?

What will it help to make a new line, if some people still breed without HD-results, bonitation and according to standart without any effort to improve the breed(read post 111 by Saschia) ?

....I think it is not so easy as it might seems to be !

I think this is a little outside the thread, but very interesting :rock_3

Greetings Rolf

As in lack of money, to buy new stock in? Is that what you mean?

I think alot of people are willing to help in work and also financially to a certain extent too.

When discussions and debating is about something you really care about, it sometimes turn in to arguing due to emotions, politic and different opinions about this subject and for me this is okey as long as people stick to the subject and don`t get personal ;-)
...but ofcourse we are all diferent, so I can only speak for my self !

Greetings Rolf

Did you ever experience a bonitation first hand ?

Bonitation is deffently not hard by any means, acually in my opinion it is too "soft" ! ...meassuring(the only good part in my opinion) should really be no problem for a well socialized dog and the character test is really weak/soft, in the character test happens not anything unusual for at dog who lives in a big city and in my opinion it is a shame to call it a character test, it should(in my opinion) be called "test of defending it selves with and without owner", because that is all there happens at the character test.

Greetings Rolf

hmmm, but this be breeding plan for Inuit dogs, but not CSW. Whe cann help to us breed this mixes?

I think these are very good questions - they made me think of some more, too.

1. If a new wolf (or more) were introduced into the breed, how would this selection take place? I am still very new at this, so maybe this is written somewhere in the history - were the original wolves picked for certain qualities (like temperament, or health, for instance)? If so, I would think it was probably easier in the 1950's for the government of the time to select the ideal wolf to breed, than a breed club of any country in 2009. I think now, selection would be limited to only captive animals, which may have had some inbreeding/health/temperament problems already from humans. But, I don't know the laws of Europe exactly, I could be wrong.;-)

2. In the 1950s, in the original breedings - were all offspring of the F1 breedings used? I think I remember reading somewhere, that some puppies sacrificed their lives if they were not usable. In today's more "humane" age, I don't think this would be acceptable, so this could mean large quantities of F1-F2 puppies that are "extras", and would probably need suitable homes for 10+ years minimum.

3. How would adding in more wolf genes affect legal status of the breed in all countries? In the US, for instance, wolfdogs up to F5 are considered dangerous and wild animals. Would the FCI accept this decision of a breed club willingly?

4. How do genetics act in the wild for wolves? I know with natural selection, it is very different - but I think there must be some degree of inbreeding naturally?

5. At what point are two dogs (or wolfdogs) considered genetically distant? With humans (again, in the US, this is what I know best, obviously), it is legal to marry your second cousin (your cousin's child, I think:look2) in some states, because the risk of genetic problems is lower (maybe...). How does this compare to a purebred dog over generations?

There are many risks, in addition to many benefits to consider, I think, if this ever took place. Definitely an interesting topic!

All of the best,
Marcy

Hmmmm, but why somebody can think about new wolf in breed? If do you mean wolfdogs have small "genopool", all breeders can help if they will use males from small bloodgroups. For example in Czech we needs more pups from Akenah Runar Wawanyanka, Argo Prizrak Karpat, Afis testamonium Diaboli..... etc etc. Every country can look at all males (thear pedigree from first dogs-males in population) and look - "what males ( grand grand grandfethers :) ) we have not in our country". It is most effective help for our breed. Not new wolves.

Yes I know it will not bee easy at all and it will take time and cost money...:)

But I think it can and must bee done in the future...:|

FCI now only register breeds whit have minimum 8 different blood lines,
because of less than that will make a to small gene pool = big problems...:rock_3

I was only thinking it maybe was time to start to collect the money in good time,
and maby start plan fore the future ;-)

But yes I´m far of the topic :lol:

Regards / Mikael

Yes I think you are right, that is a good coner to star in...
And try to keep a low COI % and less that 50 offsprings / dog
And to do HD, work and health tests...

Best regards / Mikael

As Saschia and Hanka also is writing, I think it is more importent and efficient to have a good breeding plan for already excisting CSW`s, so maybe an international breedingkomitee for our breed would be a good idea, but this will be very difficult(if not impossible) I think ?
New lines do not help anything if people keep breeding without HD-results, bonitation and work/exterier-qualities ...sad but true :(

Greetings Rolf

I have european wolf at my friends home, in uk we are allowed to have from F3 onwards after we fought for law change, in Europe this would not be allowed,

Hmm but who type- Karpatian? Sibir? Polish? or others type You have wolf?

To your information :
As far as I know UK is part of Europe ;-)
In Denmark(who also is part of Europe) all kinds of wolf-hybrids is allowed without any kind of special permission and there is no limits for how high percent wolfblood a dog can have, for pure wolves you must have a special permission, but it is VERY hard to get.
...and as far as I know it is also possible to get permission to have pure wolves in Czech rep.(who also is part of Europe) :rock_3

Greetings Rolf

No, I have not yet... but I do hope it is better than nothing :roll:

In Sweden we must do a MH test to breed CsV,
but I wont to do a bonitation on my dogs in the future to,
even if I do not realy need to by the Swedish kennel club...

Atleast I will get some kind of judgement and meassuring :)

Dogshows results in Sweden or Scandinavia do not have any value at all,
just as in most European contrys...therefore I think it is important to do a bonitation anyway.

Best regards / Mikael

Bonitation is a good thing because of meassuring and judgement of exterier, but the character-test at bonitation is just as useless as dogshows-results ...I hope the character-test at bonitation will be better sometime in the future ?

Greetings Rolf

You can come to Lithuania for bonitation ;) Not that far ;)

Good that I will do a Swedish MH test to then,
but I do not know about its quality internationall ???

Have you done the Danish MH test on Uno ???

If... how is it in comparison whit the bonitation´s MH test ???

Regards / Mikael

Thanks fore the invitation :) maby in the future...

Best regards / Mikael

MH = Mental Health ?

I have not done any Mental Health/Character-test in Denmark with Uno and we have no rules for CSW saying that we should...
But I know how is works and it is much more complex than the character-test at bonitation, I think the most easy for me will be to explain how character-test at bonitation is done in Czech rep. :

First you have your dog on the leash and walk up to one person, shakes hands with the person and 3 other persons will join you in a way that you and your dog will stand in the middel of the 4 persons.
Then you put your dog on a chain which is attached to a pole and stand next to the dog, then a figurant walks by you and your dog, then the figurant turn around and make contact with your dog(letting the dog sniff his hand), the figurant is walking away, then he turn around and run towards you and your dog simulating an attack with a stick in his hand, then you go away and out of sight for your dog and the figurant do the same once again, but this time the dog is alone. ...thats all !!!

Ofcourse the dog should be relaxed, when figurant is walking by and it should be happy to greet the figurant when he makes contact, when the figurant simulate an attack, the dog should defend you and it selves.

Greetings Rolf

Yes sorry, MH test = Mental Health test

Hmmmmm... But this bonitation character test is something you can train your dog to be good at, not realy a real character test :(

But maby it is just to test if the dog is very shy ???

And I´m far of topic again, SORRY :oops:

regards / Mikael

I agree and that is why the character-test at bonitation is worth nothing(or very little), but meassures is still importent ;-)

Greetings Rolf

what type i have and own lots of wolves,,,,,,,

the changing cwd
 

hi, i have been reading the posts, bonitations,,,, all very good, new lines? what to do? Ina ,Rona and others seem concerned about what goes on in the u.k., so lets have a look at whats going on in Europe, there is no boubt that the breed in lots of different countries is going through a change in apperance, just look at the pics on this site, if you breeders dont work and share linage, swap pups for linage then the cwd is in trouble, its happening as you read this, have a look for yourself
http://ukwolfdogs.com/cwd_in_europe_22.html and these dogs are all registered with pedigrees,,,,,,, untrust worthy people have cross bred in uk, and as i am not putting my first litter up for recognition they will never own a czech with pedigree, but look at these pics and i can add more every day, these cwd are registered and the offspring can be registered, all i want to know is how can you stop this? simple question, it is a fact we now have small dogs, soft fluffy coat dogs, shy dogs, health problems on the up, dogs being bred for looks, the cwd is a working breed and has a breed standard, many many cwd no longer come within the breed standard and are being used to breed of , i hope someone out there will do something soon?/////// i also see the uk flag and breeder has been removed from the data base, seems being out spoken on this site results in removing the link to my dogs from the general public who visit wolfdog.org. not a very nice crew, so you think my cwd and i will dissapear, wishfull thinking, i am doing article on the changing cwd and will use lots of photos in the article.

Rolf if people are prepared to work together then it would be fantastic, the health tests must be done for best selection for breeding, but if breeder in one country has lines you needed then surley an arrangment coulld be done to swap puppies to help each other, then only transport costs, but Europe is big place and can still cost? but people travel all the time, i got dog from Germany, my friend in Holland met the person half way, my friend from France met the guy from Holland half way, i got the boat to France and got my dog saving me going all the way to Germany, its called working together, unless people are willing to work together then the breed will suffer as it is already, we can produce new lines from the wolf but there are enough lines without it but they need to be supplied to those who need it to keep the breed stable, best regards pacino

Well, that's the problem - in some countries you can breed with such dogs and get pedigrees for your pups only if you get a permission, which has to based on something (other things about the dog are excellent and the dog has precious bloodline or something like that). But in others you can just breed anything, as long as the parents have papers, the pups will get them too. And either there is no local breeding club, or if there is it has no right to order or forbid anything, just make suggestions. The breeding clubs in countries of origin, although we are the guarantees for the breed, have no say.

Any overall breeding plan has no value, unless the breeders don't follow it and they won't. It is just not suitable enough for them, otherwise they would bonitate and X-ray their dogs, wouldn't they? So only thing we can do is make some breeding plans in our countries, make it easier for people from abroad to come for bonitations, sending our judges to do bonitations abroad etc.

You also have to remember that it is not about the money always, but lots of time it is. It is expensive for Slovaks to buy pups abroad. And even if you bring a pup, you have no assurance that it will grow into a good bitch/stud. Or you can breed your bitch abroad and hope that the pups will get into good hands and those which will be good would get through the process and be able to breed.

And of course as I mentioned before - most of animals bred abroad are no use to us, as they have no background for many generations, we don't know anything about their ancestors regarding the exterior, character and health.

I don't think it is completely valueless. You can see extremely shy/aggresive dogs, which are needed to be put out of the breeding, and of course the behavior during measurement should be taken into account of the character.

Moreover, good judge can clearly see if the behavior at the pole is only hard-learned or is natural to the dog. It is actually not important that the dog defends agaist the figurant, it just has to show that it is not scared, often really good charactered dog will just step away from the guy, because they see that he is actually not dangerous. It is how the dog responds, moves, etc, that is evaluated (or should be), it's body language really tells a lot to experienced judge. What I see as a problem though is that the situation needs to be learned (that the dog stays alone somewhere, that there may be people around etc.) and this is sometimes a problem - if you cannot leave your dog somewhere alone for whatever reason (it can get stolen, harmed or in the other extreme taken away by dog rescue), it is not used to it and this affects really much how the dog behaves during the test. But this is different topic.

How does the MH exam look like?

Since you mentioned my name I want to ensure you that I'm not any longer.:(

I make new thread for this :)

Greetings Rolf