Christian how can you wonder about Sona, who is experienced and widely accepted judge, about judging the character of Gorbi wrongly? Especially when you were not there and read only parts of what people saw during the bonitation (as nobody has enough time, memory and space here to describe the whole process in detail)?

I can assure you that Gorbi didn't get the marks he got wrongly. He panicked at the beginning, but then later behaved normally, not only during measurement, but also during character test, which actually took place more than an hour later. He got Og, which of course cannot prevent him from being P1, as there were no other faults.

When a dog panics in very strange situation, it is not bad. Bad is, if the dog cannot accept the very strange situation as something which is actually not dangerous. Gorbi needed to be taken away for a while, shown his place and then calmed down, and it worked.

So the case of Gorbi does not tell anything about the way faults are evaluated in different countries.

On the other hand, I feel I need to say something more about the faults, standard, and bonitation codes. Standard says how the ideal dog should look and behave like and what faults should prevent him from being considered excellent and which faults should disqualify it from shows.
Bonitation code says which faults and diversions from the standard a dog exhibits. Some of the faults do not decrease the overall mark, or do so only in combination with others. How these combinations work is a part of knowledge of judge - if you do not have a licence, you should not say that dog with such and such fault should get P14, because you do not know, how important is which trait in overall evaluation.
Still, what mark a dog needs to get to be allowed to breed is a matter of local club. If the club decides that they will breed with dogs, which have P14 because of the character, it is their decision. If the bonitation is done properly, than everybody can see, what marks the ancestors of the puppy got and if he would buy such puppy for later breeding or not. Therefore it is much worse to not give a bad mark to a dog which actually has a fault, than to give it to it and then still use the dog for breeding. After all, the P mark only tells how the dog looks overall, but it is still necessary, when choosing partners, to consider every mark individually. If you have a good female with brown eyes, for you it is much more important, that the dog has correct eyes, than that it is slightly smaller. Especially as we know that the color of eye is from 90% (if not more ) genetic, while the height is affected also by nutrition and health during dog's development.

So I think if we should discuss the differences in evaluating dogs in different countries and by different judges, that we should more concentrate on details, like what is still considered amber and what brown, what is considered
shy, insecure, mistrustful and guarded and how it is actually found out, and which faults are most important to avoid in breeding.

Yes Mijke, that can happen. The eye of a dog is changing throughout its life and can become darker (often does, actually). Also, it is very hard to say what is light brown and what is dark brown, as well as it is hard to say what is dark amber and what already light brown. There are thing which also develop - posture for example, movement, if the dog is young or tired or in bad condition, it can get worse marks than after some growing and training. Some thing can get better, but it is not for judge to decide if the problem is because of lack of movement or because of inborn condition. That is for you - you want to get good marks, work with your dog ! ;o)

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?
Good think for example would be, if in the database the official photo of the dog was one where the dog has mouth closed, so that you could see if the lips are perfect or slightly imperfect. But that is not always possible of course.
The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

Very easy answer, he is bred by us and Michael was involved and Christian has a little problem with reality-awareness and especially with us since we refused to sell him a puppy. I think we all should ignore someone that is able to insult, I think, 5 persons in one statement about a happening he didn´t join in. Telling long stories about things he also didn´t see but imagine, like he did here. And even if you both would have been there you would have the feeling you had been on a totally different occasion. Out of long years sad experience I can tell you he will go on forever if you react in any way.
I will get this cleared by a lawyer like I promised him the last time he wrote lies and give no more statements to this poor soul.


But coming back to the topic of this thread that is of much more importance than stupid fights.
I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. During bonitation a dog normally isn´t that much relaxed that it shows slack lips if it doesn´t really have some. What I also have seen more often are not coloured toenails what isn´t of too much importance but a thing I would also like to be able to see in the code.

There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too.:roll: It is easier with codes.

Ina

Yes, this I agree with completely. I'll try to start discussion on this topic in the club.

You must thanks God because is only you take a car and drive...
for me is 24 hours traveling without stop directly only for arrive at europe ( germany) without count made some exams in the dogs 6 months before travel. :twisted:

Christian my friend,
i'm sorry to tell you that from what i see (which is my only judgement parameter, NEVER what others tell me) mr. Michael Eichorn is capable to handle dogs and get respect from them.
From what I've seen, he has never caused violence to one of his dogs in front of me. (blue tongue seems to me a myth effect of a supposed cause...)
I must repeat... letting your dog be your boss is MORE violence to the dog than giving him some strong leash pulls or putting him on the ground.
I would give my dog to Michael if he had character problems without any doubt.
Owners of Gorbi are fantastic owners, fantastic people, fantastic friends.
They are in charge of Gorbi as much as you are of Myla. But they have time to recover and take charge, I'm not so sure if you can do the same.
Instead of saying they were wrong owners, I prefer saying they need to learn, as maybe also you should have learned in the past.

.... how long will this thread last?

I don't remember myself removing your posts recently.

I especially took a look at Briards standard and it is more strict than that of CzW. It's openly written that going below minimum is disqulification. In CzW standard there is no such sentence. It's just some people's interpretation - stop people overinterpret the stanrdard and don't say things that are not included in it. Going below minimum is a fault - TRUE. Going below minimum is disqualification - THAT IS OVER-INTERPRETING. No such sentence exists in the breed standard. Just that it is a fault since the standard says it's below minimum. If you want it to be strict change the standard. An example from Briards standard: " Nice and clear but... this is a quote from Briard standard.

It happens that in the book "Ceskoslovensky vlcak", that I have here on my table, and which was written by Ing.Karel Hartl, founder of the breed, and Ing. Jindrich Jedlicka, former head advisor of the breed in CR, it says clearly, that: "Nonstandard size (insufficient height in withers) is disqualifying fault."
The standard does not need to be changed. What has to be done, is this book getting finally translated, so people stop cheating.
I don´t think that anyone would question the words of the very founder of the breed as to what is standard or not in the breed.

for Margo
 

My dear Margo, I have a nerve indeed. I have also patience and I have some honour, and I will defend it against your public accusations.

FIRST - I never started topic with attacks on your kennel - read the question again. I have never mentioned the name of the dog, neither the kennel nor you. But you immediately attacked me and threw accusations, which are not based on any facts and you know it. I will remind you:

- You accused me of breeding on dogs with serious disqualifying faults. That is not true and anyone can check it out - the bonitation codes of both my females are presented here on Wolfdog.org, as well as on my own website and I can proove their correctness anytime. Just for records, my dogs were bonitated by recognised experts Sona Bognarova and Monika Soukupova.

- You accused me of hiding things - not sure what you mean, probably anything from who killed J.F.K. to dysplasia of my dog. Again - these are pure accusations with a goal to throw dirt on me. HD results of my older female are online both here and on my own website and written down in Cira´s pedigree.

Ali has heavy HD, which I know from her 9 months of age and I was never breeding with her and never will. The HD result is not displayed anywhere, simply because she was x-rayed before the age required for official HD result. Ali´s state and problems are known not only to the Czech breeding commitee, my friends, the local CSW Club in Belgium, but also to Sona Bognarova, who bonitated her. And indeed, on my own website is article in two languages about the hydrotherapy that I did with my Ali. The hydrotherapy was recommended to us by Veterinary clinic in Liege and it did wonders to her movement and health. I invite everyone to come and read about Ali here.

So, Margo, at the end of the day, let me borrow your own words - "if you have nothing bad to hide you should be not afraid of any critique because you can explain everything." I also think you should "be prepared you have also to answer some problematic questions..."

I give you one last chance – you have publicly accused me of breeding on dogs with disqualifying faults. This is a fact which can be verified to be false. So either withdraw publicly your accusations and apologize, or face the consequences. It is your choice. Nobody can accuse other people publicly without having hard facts and think he will get away with it. Not even you, the law is the same for everybody. And please, don´t bother erasing this topic or posts. The whole topic has been already saved by several people ready to bear witness to the fact, changing things now would only be seen as a means of hiding evidence. The evidence of what you said will not go away.

Dear Mirka,

This case, what happened with you, were happaned with anybody else in the past several times....................you must know.....you have never read any appologize in this page...................
A lot of breeders, owners were blaming in the open forums.............and it is a shame that this could happened..............but you know as well that this page is not objective....and till somebody couldn't see over her own aims (money, influence,etc) till it will continuing......fauls datas in the page...(of course bad datas and you couldn't ask corrections), wrong pictures and topics which try to cause bad reputation to some breeders, owners, dogs.............

Edit

No no no. It take over 48 hours driving 8) one way over 2000km and one week... normal is over 5000km one trip;-)

and after all I think why?

Well one last comment because it concernes the health of breed topics and therefor really is important: Hyperactivity in dogs exist and is, like in humans, a heritable neurological disorder. Children of parents with hyperactivitiy show this problem much more often than the average population. If she really is hyperactiv, what is mentioned here by the owner himself in regular terms, she should not be bred but treated with the usual drugs, together with a behavioural training.

Ina

A book, no matter who wrote it, is no standard. The FCI-Standard says no such thing. Obviously Oskar Dora thinks different who is a very experienced judge and still member of the Club Comitee of the Patronage Country.

Ina

DEFEND Mirka, you wrote nice long email - English language is not a problem for you so please READ YOUR OWN WORDS again!!!

This weekend I was on the club dog show and bonitation in Germany. EVERYBODY was speaking about "this dog" - what's going on and why YOU say the owners can not breed with him. MIRKA, you SERIOUSLY was bad to Daimon.... The damages you have done will be NEVER undone. And everything only because you find it the good way to attack us...
You are not a beginner who can say you have no idea about the breed and rules - no, you exactly knew you words are not true but you wrote them. You knowingly and intentionally was bad for this dog and destroyed the dog as stud dog. And the DOG and his OWNERS are the ONLY victims here....

WHO and WHAT give you the right to write the dog is not BREEDABLE????? He has breeding rights according the polish rules and now he also PASSED the bonitation required in Slovakia with the "very goog" note. The bonitation was made by SLOVAK judge (VERY FAMOUS AND EXPERIENCED ONE). It was made according the SLOVAKIAN RULES. In the breeding comittee were 2 judges (one from Slovakia and one from Lithuania) and former member of the Czech breeding comittee. HOW CAN YOU sneer at "different standard for CSW in Poland" when the bonitation had NOTHING to do with ANY polish rules... WHAT GIVES YOU THE REASON TO ACCUSE THIS DOG????? He was P14? NO!!!

Mirka, I never solved ANY problems and ANYTHING what was has to do with dogs on the way you suggest but I say you I will not write ANY apology to you - the only person which need them are the owners of Daimon... And they need them from you...!

If you do not understand what you have done.... hmmmm.... I have only two solutions... it will be your choice...

OR you start to disscuss like all other people on the normal way and not "I can attack everybody but when someone says something against me I will scream and threaten the person with court"....

....
OR you choose your way. In the case you will try to fulfil your threats the owners of Daimon will make the same against you... Please speak with Jesus about the it - I hope as the "cool head" he will explain it to you what it means and what will be the consequences....
In this case we will also say "good bye" to you on the forum and Wolfdog.org - I really do not want to have here ANYONE ho is behaving like this... I have enough of people who think they are the untachable VIPs which can attack ANYBODY and NOBODY can touch them.... If you are not able to make normal discussion it is DFEFINITELY not a forum for you (or people like you).

It is end of the disscusion between me and you to this topic...

5.000km is a normal dogshow/workingtrial trip :p, for I back from São Paulo ( where I stop in airport) to Rio grande do Sul ( where I live) is about 1500km. but I have no idea how many kilometer are São Paulo > germany.
Being a survivor of Q class for 9 hours :diablotin

Well, I have no doubt's about why I do it and why I intend repeat it for bring new bloodlines to my country, I love this breed since I was child and they're all I have ever wait, for ME the perfect dog breed, healthiest in comparation with any other dog breed of the same group, extremly workable, excelent behaviour and with everything good and usefull wolves have like endurance, agility and inteligence. I'm sure that here more people share the same opinion as me in this point, but this is a personal opinion.
Unhapply we all know that this breed isn't easy to select because high inbreeding spreaded, only 5 bloodlines is to little ammount for a breed like that, luckly the breed still isn't popular and so this turn the CzW world breed pretty little, everyone well informed try to knows what everyones do, that happen because every unique good blooded litter have such importance to the breed worldwide that turn important for every good breeder know how the puppies developed, if they're healty and where they are, maybe for future use sometimes.

In truth and in my very personal opinion is simply unbeliveable how can someone think in put outside breeding a healty, wolfish, tipical, correct stud with unique bloodline because 1 centimeter in a breed wich need's genetic diversity! It's something I cannot cope, I really must greetings the judge Oskár Dór for the great common sense and future sight he have, we need more judges able and with such knowledge like he!
People, czwchoslovakian wolfdogs arent german shepherds wich we can put outside breeding because behaviour problems, because something not good on standard, we dont have such genetic pool!!
Iran zemplinska Oblast is for me a good exemple of how big waste can be put outbreeding a dog because a little defect, he is a beauty blood refreshment for a good number of CzW, believe me or not futurelly dogs like he will make difference and nobody will complain with his 64cm and brown eyes.
Suppose we start now to follow a rigorous selection, only dogs at standard can mate and any dog, independent of past and lines, that have problems wich isn't write on standard or that was write on the old breed book will be put out of reprodutcion because are dogs disqualified as stud... how many work breeders will have for end with the same problem?
We will put outside reproduction a dog with new bloodline because he was 64 or 63cm, prognat maybe, and so? we will lost some well done bloodlines because stupid selection, inbreeding tends to increase and these same problems wich was avoided by selection will start appear again, like prognatism, less high and so on, remembering that the dogs will tend to comes with illness bonus because less genetic diversity, less imunity,less fertility, homozigosis in recessive bad genes... will it be good? woudn't be better, use carefully a unique bloodlined dog for up the genetic pool even if this dog isn't the "standard", but still preserve tipicity?
I really dont bother if the dog have such little problems for the standard when I will chose a stud dog, for me important is bring new and healthy open bloodlines, after this problem be solved and we have better genetic diversity we will have time to work in details selection and turn it better and better.. otherwise it will be impossible if we start already now with a rigorous selection, now when we have no conditions to do it.

Continues working serious and independand of where you live you will help in the evolution of the breed, want's better excuse for accept travel far away only for mate dogs or bring new bloodline? :)

Really, this isn't the first topic I see Czech people saying that Czech bonitation or Czech club is better or more rigorous than Slovakians, I can say that this pass a really bad image of the Czech Club even for who not know Czech Club and his rules personally (like me), seems that Slovak club is so superior and self-secure that don't need bother writing who is the best. :shock: I have nothing against Czech or Slovaks, please, I know have excelents breeders in the two sides as pretty serious work, but is what it seems for who read it from outside, so, please, try avoid comments like that. :(

best regards to everyone and please, think in the poor souls wich live far away and depend of Bonitations, photos and more relyabe informations about the dogs before think in make a big travel for try a mate. :lol:

You think he is forbidden? I have others informaton from IPO trainers from Germany. Maybe it is forbidden but only official - almost all shephard breeders in your country use it.

Yes, on meeting and in Germany this weekend. And both be happy about this meeting

And for You this in anormal reaction? dogs see others dogs and are happy to see new dogs

Your Mila is hyperactiv? hmm interesing.....
If You think in this metod - this is only Yours mind. i think others

Electricity collar is for three years officially forbidden in germany! I am very sorry, one of my friends is the highest police dog trainer in lower saxony where I live. And the police does not use electric collar. And Daiva even if there are some stupids who need electricity to work with their dogs, it is very sad if someone needs it too. Even if it is you, who wrote here in several times as if you are very experienced with dogs. And please when you are sometimes not able to handle Geryon like in Hronec, don´t you think that your dog maybe does not trust you? Because sometimes he was hurt by you through electricity collar. Csw is much too intelligent and he knows even if you stood far away that hurting has to do with your comand. that is my opinion.

Przemek, you wrote here about the old standard! New standard says, 1 cm under the smallest hights and 2 cm over is allowed otherwise disqualification. And this is what I mean, it should be written in standard not more and not less. Where is the problem? Than no one has to discuss over pages what is right and what is wrong. Things must be compareable. I did not know either that there different ways how to see a bonitation. So everyone should make several bonitations in different countries.

I don´t know, I thought you are the moderator of english forum, aren´t you? Someone says, that 3 famous breeders did not give me a puppy. I think you remember that I was in your house with my 8 year old daughter when you had beautiful litter with Jolly and Borko and the puppies had been1 week old?! Do you remember? I never ask you for a puppy, I only wanted to see how other breeders were rasing up puppies and how csw are. I ask you to confirm this. Not more. And someone if not you cancelled it from forum.

Christian

I must say, that Daiva said true. Electrical collar is absolutelly normally using by IPO top training (same like needle collar and string collar). In Germany too !!!
Electrical collar is very good training tool, but only for very specific using and using only under supervision of good experienced trainer. Is stupid to say, that electrical or needle collar are bad. With knife you can killing, but cutting bread as well. Every tool is good, if is correct use.

that is absolutely correct….

Also in other countries well experienced people and trainers are using an electrical collar for specific training :rock_3

it is used as support (not for constant use)

Yes, Mijke wrote it absolutelly correct and must be stressed "specific training". Its mean not using by normally obedience. Electrical collar ist mostly (exc. IPO) using for correct the education faults, character problems (hunting instinct) etc.

Perfect!
Remembering for who say that eletric collar "hurts", commonly the eletric colar are tested on the TREINER first before be used on the dog, it really not hurt at all, but gives a strange felling on the neck.
In official working trials and even in dogshows eletric collars and needle collars are forbiden, normally it's only acepted collars without strangler or with the strangler "grasped" at working trials, that not means we cannot use it for training.

And used by the wrong hands :evil:, you can also destroy a dog :(.
It is very handy, but also very ubusing if you do not use it correct.
And that is just what you can see lately a lot in the dogsport :roll:.

Groette Martine.

Martine, read my 2 last comments, I said it. I dont like only the people, who said generally, that electric or needel collar are bad. Its not true, because in some specific situations they are last and one only help.

Not only last help ;-).
In some situations it is better to use it ride away 8).

Worth reading what published Animal Welfare in 2004: http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/a...ng_methods.pdf

In addition, worth thinking about water/air collar if one "need" a remote tool.

Also interesting: http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/d...hockcollar.pdf

Daiva,

I don't want a discussion on electric collars in general.
Different people, different attitudes.
But let me ask you the one or other question about your use of this kind of collar on your dog Geryon.
1. Why was it necessary to use it in the first place, and how old was he?
2.In what exact situations did you use it?
3.How did you prepare you and your dog for this situation?
4.Do you think the use had any impact on the behavior of Geryon and did it change the problems you and your dog (remember, the problem is mostly at the end of the lead) had in a positive way?
5.If you're honest with yourself, is there the possibility of something going the other direction as desired?
6.If yes, has it maybe something to do with the fact that you cannot handle your own dog?
7.Or is it just due to a lack of a proper rank order, which can of course not be "cured" by an electric collar.
If you don't want to answer these questions here, feel free to send me a private message.

Thanks in advance for your help clarifying this questions,
Michael

Still wonder about the answer's :roll:, and I found another one :|.
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=list&id=4100
And he even got P1 ??
Still hope, that someone can answer me 8).
Groette Martine.

Sorry wrong link :oops:, have to find him again :shock:.
Lost it somewhere between mine mouse and the post ;-).

sorry :) i have very hard work :)


2.3.4.5.7. about this you mass speak with me personal trainer :) ;-)
6. i think others :) if you think not like me this is not me problems :) but Yours.


regards :)

I am not Michael, who is away at work for this week, but I think you should be able to explain such things yourself when you use an electric collar or you shouldn´t use it because you are not qualified for it. You use it yourself so you should also be able to explain why by yourself and you should have very good reasons why there is no other way of training. Otherwise it is a case of abuse and extreme psychological violance against the dog no matter if you use it during bonitation or not.
Being thrown on the back and held down is something that is element of social interactions in wolves and dogs. Something I can show you easily in our wolf or dog pack, though it shouldn´t be used in regular terms from unexperienced owners. Being shocked by an electric collar is not and therefor not understandable for the dog within the social context and training is something in a social context.

But anyway this is nothing that should be discussed any longer in a topic about differences in Bonitations. I agree with you on that one point.

Ina

I not know if i must start new topic but is same because me and my friends have two question. Sorry i never see bonitation but my friends see and want to ask because now they see results in belgium. I write it because for me it is too odd.
you write in topic about Cutt because he is P14 because slovak judge measure Cutt with 64 centimetres. For me it is normal and i not believe it can change and for me is not true czech judges give more centimetres. But now i see people write here is right and me any my friends have question to Mirka because i now he made bonitation in belgium with czech judge. In results i see Ice Wolf and dog is P14 because slovak judge measure it with 63,5 centimetres and i see now dog is very good in belgium because czech judge give him 1,5 centimetres more and now he is minimum size. I read many critic of Mirka about small dogs and now i see he and czech judge make dog more big and make P14 dog to P3. I want ask how big is difference between czech ans slovak measure? and when is next bonitation in belgium with same judge because many people write bad thing on cutt - father of my dog of my friend. And i see it is possible to change if breeder come and make new bonitation. But what i not understand are bad words Mirka write about other dogs but same time make bonitation and give P3 for too small dog:roll:

Second question is about czech judge Matu¹incová because she make bonitation in czech and in italia. And me and my friends see she not like italian dogs because she give bad marks for small things and much good marks for czech dogs. It is normal for this judge?
My friends know about bonitation in pavia and very nice dog have bad bonitation code and many bad marks. here you can see three for example
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Alf...kych_vinic.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ien..._Arimminum.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Misha_Braveheart.jpg
two dogs are from italia and one from czech and all very much typical and good looking. For me same and i know breeders here say same. But for czech judge dogs are not very much typical and give dogs worst mark.

and same judge make bonitation in czech and dog like here are perfect
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/10...13-2768622.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/10...06-4590414.jpg
and for judge Matu¹incová no bad marks. But for me dogs not look like wolfdogs. is not very odd judge evaluate dogs as this. You know this judge? I ask because people say judge give worst mark to italian dogs because it is jealous because italian dog are much more nice as czech? but it is right to judge this way?

This dog has not bonitations, what you show on picture. it was too young puppy for bonitation

And why you write about judge Matusincova? Judge on this action was judge Simackova

This is puppy :shock:

Hi,

I can only give an answer to your first question.
About Ice-Wolf: I know the dog was seriously ill when he was still young and he was always very small and skinny. Since one year, his owner has a second dog and Ice had a break for training. His owner also changed the dog's food and he got really fat. When he started to train him again, the dog didn't loose all the extra weight and he looked bigger and more masculine. His owner wanted to bonitate him again, because the dog really changed a lot. I saw it myself: the dog even looked bigger.
The judge measured him and he appeared to be 65cm... Of course I wasn't standing beside it to check the measurement, but I don't think the judge made him bigger or smaller :twisted:
Another possibility could be that the dog didn't change, but his exact size is let's say 64,2cm. On the first measurement the dog was maybe not so self-confident and he got measured 63,5. The second measument the dog was maybe standing straight on his legs and full of confidence, a bit older and bigger and measured 64,9...

I understand your point about Cutt... He's a nice male with very nice offsprings and it's a pity he has a P14 code because of his height :(

Liesbeth

Yes, 6 months (+ -) old dog is puppy usually.

Lisbeth, what you say confirms the bonitation problem that exsits: the dogs of our friends were sick, underfed, were scared during the bonitation and that's why they didn't reach the minimnum size. By the secod bonitation they have grown, got braver, their bodies have changes etc. and that's why they deserve a better code. People would never say it about the dogs of their "enemies" or competitors. Those were either measured properly and the bonitation results were "lifted" by "dishonest judges" or they do not desereve the bonitation code they have. If the second bonitation code is better than the first one - there definitely must have been some dishonest action....

Don't you guys see this is patethic? If you start questioning bonitation codes given to dogs by competent, reliable, honest judges bonitations will totally lose its value! They will be worth not more than the piece of paper on which the result was printed. There must be a group of trustful judges who cooperate together, set standards and follow procedures and whose judgements will never be undermined or questioned by anybody if the bonitation is to have any sense at all.

The result of the above discussion is such, that I decided not to bonitate my dog. Are you really aiming towards more such personal decisions? If yes - go on arguing....:evil:

Matusincova isn't judge !!!!!!! He never pass exam for judge. :rock_3 She is a head of breeding commission in Czech :shock: . I agree with lupis :) you have good questions and very good point of vieiw .
The judge in Prag was Anna Simackova but code make Matusincova :lol: . I don't agree with czech breeding commission, it' s not a secret :twisted:. But it's czech problem.....
And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight. Standard said this precisely but if somebody want use small dogs who can prevent it ? Nobody. :twisted:

From what I read here written by Czech breeders I see that most of them are obssessed with size :lol: - it seems to be their main breeding criterium. :shock: I wonder if this approach is a kind of "weapon" against breeders from other countries, who breed smaller but.... nicer dogs.:p:rock_3

For me there is more to the beauty of a dog than its hight or weight. These are proportions, head, movement, character etc., etc. :roll:

Maybe breeding Czechoslovakian elephants would be a solution for some Czech breeders? :twisted::lol::lol::lol:

No Rona, size is not only one criterium for breeding. Do you know standart? Read what size MUST be wolfdog. If it is most beautiful wolfdog on the World, under standart size, it must not be in breeding. Standart is only one, for all wolfdogs.
I was on bonitation in Prag where was judge Simackova. I was sitting by table and I wrote codes to pedigree. But I don´t remember, only mrs. Matusincova told me codes....... it was work of all bonitation comission. And if was problem we spoke about it together. Hmmmm, maybe I was on some second action..................

No Rona - you are wrong ;-) for czech breedrs is important standard :lol:. And we have breeding comission and they advice breeding elephant but only in other kennel not in own ....:shock: Its difficult to explain it. In other country you can mix what you want ( I thing it's sometimes better, but sometimes.....) in Czech we must have paper from breeding comission -----and use dogs f.e. from Italy is very hard fight with Matusincova.

For me is important normal CSW with good character. Beuty is not all ......And what somebody love (small dogs ;-)) somebody seems it is bad.

Hanka, you're writing about ideas, and I - about the practice :twisted:. Read what Lisbeth wrote: the dog was smaller - but then it grew... :rock_3 I agree that malnutrition may lead to smaller size of the dog - but than should such a dog really be excluded from breeding, even if it is healthy and beuatiful and has excellent character? We both know that sometimes smaller dogs, if correctly matched, may have pups that grow to average or even big sizes and pass very positive genes.

The real (and for me really irritating) problem is that if OUR (or our friend's dog) is small - it was underfed and/or sick in puppyhood. If a dog of our antagonist is small - it is UGLY and does not meet the standard. :twisted: Do you see the point I'm trying to make?
In my opinion this is a very childish and self-destructive attitude which in the long run will lead to the devaluation of bonitation. In fact, it already has. Not to mention, that honest breeders will fear to write openly about their dogs' imperfections - and no dog is perfect, even the best Czech one. :p


This is exactly my opinion. One centimeter this or another way shouldn't matter as long as the dogs fulfils other criteria, beacuse it may have very valuable features and it would be a waste to exclude him/her from breeding. The standard does not say what should the dog be standing on during bonitation and wheather it should be in his summer or winter coat or be before or after the bath.
I don't agree here: thinner dogs look smaller, those with more robust body - bigger. People see a slim dog and judge: "it's too small" even if it matches the standard or even exceeds it and it is stated in the bonitation code. A more heavily built dog, with biggr coat will give an impressioin of being taller (even if 1-2 centimeters have to be added at bonitation to his height to meet the standard;-))

Dear mr. "Lupis", I don't saw you or your friend in Pavia, so please speak abuot things that you know.

Anyway the dogs shown in example have taken P3, and this result isn't so "orrible". I don't agree with some judgment but overall I think mrs Matusincova judged well.

...and mainly because is character!
During "italian" bonitace (without character test :cry: ) he gone in panic when somebody outsdide the ring closed the door of his car...:roll:

In italian bonitation is NOT test of character?

sometimes yes, sometimes no...:lol:

Now, the c. test of italian club bonitace is similar to CAL 1. The dog never be alone at the picket.

At the year of serramazzoni bonitace, they don't wanted any character test (because in that bonitace were many shy dogs of "some" breeders), but mrs. Bognarova gained, after a hard bargaining, that the dog should be almost alone (however without any threat).
So the test was more easy, but some dogs had troubles( big troubles) even with that easy test.

This is why many italian breeders and owners no more go to bonitaces organized by italian club and manage to organize themselves with the help of foreign kennel clubs (like that in Pavia).

Yes, and this sounds strange... I have a tall and muscular but still very feminine female (Walkiria Girios dvasia) and in my case I am more worried about "mastif" like looking dogs, about too big and to heavy dogs... My female was measured during the bonitation by Oskar Dora and the code says she is 66 cm. But when I measure her myself, the number is changing :lol: So maybe we should trust the experts?... :roll:

I trust the experts :) But even then measuring can change:rock_3
My female was 61 cm on youth presentation (of a CZ judge) and 60 cm on a later Bonitation (of a SK judge)
But this is not a real problem for me! :lol:

This only proves that I was right that some Czechs are obsessed with size :evil_lol :lol::lol::lol:. The dog may grow with time, but I doubt if can shrink :p This example also shows how absurd the "one centimeter bonitation wars" are.:lol:
Neither would it be for any reasonable CSV owner.:cool3

vaiva,
I never read here, somebody like "mastife types". If you thought me, I DON´T LIKE heavy dogs. But I only write: standart is standart and we must respect it. In this case we write about size. It is- why I answer about size now. When will be topic about some other things- we can write about other things. Why do you mean- somebody like heavy dogs?