HD results
 

Hello friends. I have question. Do you belive to all results of HD what are publiced here on wolfdog? What do you mean about central database (gallery) of these fotos? Scanned X-ray fotos? Everybody can see it and measure it.
Is it possible to make good databese from X-ray fotos? Or is it out from our technical posibilites?

Some time ago Margo said that only HD with official results (sent to her) would be posted.
I'm not sure this has been applied yet.
If she confirms this will be done, then it's up to us to believe in Margo's site or not...so the belief passes from the HD results to Margo.
I have no reason not to believe her, once she confirms it.

She also said that litters with dogs with HD results would be advertised, and this is actually happening today.
massimo

Great Hanka, in Italy is possible to ask the photo at the central, i agree with this idea. Ever we don't know if HD A, form Czech is the same of HD A of Italy or Poland. With the photo the breeder can valutate real condition, and comparate!

I think is possible!

on this link, sorry is italian, is explane how to measure Norber-Olsson degrees measure

http://www.notonlyblack.org/health/d...orberg_olsson/

Yes Massimo, I know. But I think, in some countries :rock_3 is measuring very "soft". So, for me is much much better to see foto by my own eyes. I want use only males, what have result, what I can belive......I hope you know what I mean.

oh yes...now i understand what you mean...if Official results should be trusted, so neither WD or Margo but the actual HD examinator.
Sorry I'm no vet and I don't feel I have enough experience.

Yes, it is known that a grade A from the Czech Republic that is more than a grade A from Italy.. i agree with you,is better than the breeder, especially when using non-secure lines on HD, it should choose the stud-dog based on the photo about x-ray!

Hanka, but who help this rtg foto in WD galery? You be expert for HD examination? or Massimo? or Woland? In Lithuania rtg foto have only vet and LKD not owner. In this case we not cann send this rtg foto to this galery only results.
I know, Margo thake to data basa only rtg results when have hes copy, not worts but mas send skan results with pedigree.
If You think about this " not polish HD A is this same like Italian or Czech HD A" mas about this send to FCI and speak oficial about bad others veterinar who not cann make this HD exams.
I think IF vet have licenzion for examination and this be FCI OFICIAL licenzion all is ok. Or You think only CZ wets be the best in world? :rock_3

I think it is a very bad idea...

First I do not se the point at all, if you have a official HD result it will be added, and if a buyer or breeder wonts to se the x-ray they can ask for it...

If you are not satesfied whit a C/C you can send the X-ray to FCI...

Second the risk for bad quality and for cheating is to big...

Even today kennels are trying to putt up unofficial results as officiall :evil:
Whit a system like that it will get worse

Best regards / Mikael

FCI doesn´t care about x-ray results.

In finland you can but your photos FKL panel and after that Nordic KennelUnion panel but in FIN database you can read what happend.

And there is no results from outside FIN....

Mikael,
Hanka's idea is not as bad as you think...
if you consider it on a wide scale of course it makes no sense as we cannot help trusting the professional and authorised vets who read the HD xrays
BUT... and this depends on the consciousness of each breeder, if you have a doubt on a male you want to use as a stud, or on the parents of the puppy you plan to buy...
Then all you have to do is ASK for a copy of the xrays (if possible) and ask for a second advice.
Easy!
massimo

oh no..not me!!
I can help you with wine if you want! (or female beauty...)

So if you are interested in a concrete stud, you can contact his owner directly and ask :roll:

hmm, I think about this :)

I think like Vaiva if you are interested in a stud, way not just ask the owner for the x-ray ???

I se no point to do all this work for nothing :roll:, an A is an A and a B is a B and so one, way let people that is not expert on X-ray say something else ??? if you are not satesfied you can complain your official results...

This will only open the door for unserius breeders and breeding.

Best regards / Mikael

hello Daiva, some answers:
Hanka, but who help this rtg foto in WD galery?
I think, it can be very willing. for example: I am sure, my male has perfect HD result, so I can show it to all breeders.

You be expert for HD examination?
What is expert? I am not veterinar doctor with certificate for HD results, but I belive to my eyes and I am not stupid. I have at home ruler and scribing compass. I am breeder longer time and I know something about it.

In Lithuania rtg foto have only vet and LKD not owner. In this case we not cann send this rtg foto to this galery only results.
Yes, here too. But everybody can have two fotos from one visit by doctor.


If You think about this " not polish HD A is this same like Italian or Czech HD A" mas about this send to FCI and speak oficial about bad others veterinar who not cann make this HD exams.
yes, I am sure, polish, italian or czech results ARE NOT the same. I know it on 100%. And I think, much people know it. (we have some cases)

I think IF vet have licenzion for examination and this be FCI OFICIAL licenzion all is ok.
Yes, it is OK. But we know, the results are veyr different. Not in all cases, but very often.

Or You think only CZ wets be the best in world? :rock_3
No, you told it. Not me

I know much owners of males, what keep in secret some defects of their males, what are not for example in bonitation code. Very often it is defect on teeth, bad rtg (they have not oficial result), etc. On fotos they are dogs NUMBER ONE. But in real.......
I am sure, you know some this owners too.
So for me is very important to see maximum on dogs, to know maximum about next father of pups from my kennel.....
I don´t want see him first time in time of mateing, when I visit him with female.

__________________

In this case speak with reproductor owner - when wish have all info and hes wish mate your female he make ALLS for this mate.
I think this not make problems owners this male who wish You used. :)

No, I know it is not problem to answer me. But every owner of female for example sits by PC and looks on much males. Will he ask every owner? Me no. I want have maximum info from first looking on male (his gallery, his database, his web, etc....)
I want give this foto (scann) of my male on my web too. But in this moment I try to have qualite scann of it. But I want to be fair to all other breeders, so on web I have maximum info about my male.
look:
http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Quenno_od_UhosteENG9.html

Hanka, i don't see the xrays on your site...
Maybe , considering all the discussions you made, you should put them!

Nice reklam :twisted: but not place in forum make this for self's breed dog. ;-)
And if have this type thema, I say who I think :
but I not see rtg skan in Yours web site. and I not know this is bite Yours dog or not in this foto :) :rock_3

Yes Massimo, I wrote, I want give it there, but in this moment I have not so good scanned foto. I must try do it on some better machine. Maybe it is technical problem for this kind of gallery. It was in my first question: Is it technically possible to do this "gallery" or database, where will be only scanns? I wait some answers from other people. In past I tried to do some scanns. Some was good, some was too dark.....maybe we need for it more light fotos.....Or- how we can do it better?
Daiva- yes. But it was not my first idea. My first idea was to be maximally open to other breeders, to give them all info what they want to know. I want to do the same (to other pople) like I like. If I want know all about my favorite males, I must offer the same. Not secrets about defects of my dog.
What is important to know about stud male? (If I have not chance to see him "live"?): body, teeth,charatcter,HD result, health. If I can see it , on fotos or on video, great and thanks about it.

Hanka, Yes this be good idea, but sorry not all vet cann make exam rtg but You cann. this be very interesing :)
Cann I please exam this dogs, and other too :) cann this make
nr.1
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...alyginimui.gif

nr.2
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...alyginimui.jpg

nr.3

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...1lyginimas.jpg

There is still some problems whit the wolfdog photo gallery, wrong dogs in the wrong place... No big problem, but what if a X-ray photo end up in the wrong place :rock_3 not to easy to se that it is the wrong scans ;-)

And I do not nether think Margo and crew is interested in ALL the work it will bee, way not just add your scans on your own websites :|

Best regards / Mikael

I don't believe in all results, specially when I see dogs from a not nice line for hips making only A results, but its inevitably, studing the bloodline of the dog you can have a small idea about this and take more care.
The main problem is:
It will not be impeached by the photo of the X-ray when its possible to make a fake with Photoshop!

What I really wonder about is of the Elbows results, nobody make this exam and when its made its possible to find even breeders using affected dogs, as if Elbows displasy was not important ( when in truth the problem is bigger than the Hips one), and yes, the breed is affected with this problem, we only don'thave many positives because nobody test! it's really a problem and will turn the things difficult if people don't start to get aware, test the dogs and took out of breeding the affected dogs.

And with it you will not be able to judge if the degree is correct or not as far you don't have the assurance that who do the foto don't turn the camera more for one side to another one, as far you don't have the assurance the owner who make the scann put it properlly in the scanner and as far you can't see the properlly place of where you may put the "compass" for meassure the angle.
if have something you will not be able to judge by fotos mostly will be the angles of X rays.
The X rays exams don't depend only of the angles but of some details as well.
But here on this topic we have a nice test then you as experienced breeder for sure will be able to evaluate the fotos that Daiva show here. ;-)

I don´t see any sense in posting the photos knowing that even not specialized vets are sometimes wrong in judging the degree in about 2 grades. As Paula wrote there are several points that go into the HD-result.
Looking at the x-rays shown here I must say that - if they are the original one - two of them would have been refused the judgement because of not fullfilling the quality standarts of the German VDH-judges.

There is an easy solution to that problem, like for Dwarfs there is a genetic test now awailable for HD, inveted by a German institut and verified on German Shepherds. They now start to verify it for other breeds and the waiting list is long but I will arrange for it. My problem is, as I wrote before in this forum without reaction, I need 500 CSW that have official results, half of them free, half of them with HD. It is impossible to get this amount only in Germany so please, if you and/or your breeding club is willing to help me send me a message. It makes no sense for me to even start asking if I am not able to get those dogs.

It has been shown that even in breeds with very low incidence of HD like Belgium Shepherds there is an astonishing amount of carriers, what means that if you know the genetic status you can avoid combinations that will result in bad HD-offspring. Every breeder here will agree with me that this will be a great gift.
They are working on test for Epilepsy and ED as well, maybe I could arrange something on that too.

Ina

If someone really wants his dog's rtg scan to be published, maybe they can browse the picture like a photo of one's dog :roll: If it is ok and possible :roll:

I will support you Ina, but I think 500 sounds like to many for are breed...
way so many ??? I think Dwarf DNA test was made by only a very few dogs...

is it not possible to make this DNA test whit (just) 200 dogs ???

And I think we better send the X-ray’s to and not just the official results,
so that there be no mistakes...

Can you ask if we really need 500 dogs and if it is possible to do the ED DNA test at the same time ???

Do they wont all kinds of results, A, B, C, D or do they just wont A and D ??? or maybe A and C results ???

Very best regards / Mikael

What exactly do you need, Ina? Photos? DNR sample? What can we do to help you in this case?

Becase different of Dwarfism, HD is poligenic and its the main problem, in easy words, when you need only one carrier of Dwarfism for validade the test, for a poligenic illness you will need a lot of, for mark all responsible genes for the illness and so, turn the test possible.
I will not be surprised if with 500 they will need more dogs.
Make a test for ED can be even more complicate, I wonder if it already exist.


Commonly, when you officialize the results the X-rays stay with the fondation/college, as not all people ask for a X ray copy or ever make photos of it, I don't think it will be possible.

Thanks Nebulosa

..............................

To all

How many CsV is there whit official HD results today, will it be possible to gather 250 good and 250 bad results ??? and maybe more ???

I think it might be hard, but possible if the clubs of origin helps and Italy to...

What will be the cost for every owner you think ???

Maybe we can make a list of people that is willing to help ???

Will it be a demand of age of the X-ray ??? as minimum 18 month for female and 24 month for a male ??? as for example the x-ray of a 12 month male is apparently not to accurate at all...

Best regards / Mikael

It is not possible in Germany but it should be easy on international basis.
I will call them on Monday and try to get the exact things that a neccessary.
If several countries join in it should be possible.
We plan to come to Bratislava end of this year maybe we can arrange that everybody interested brings his HD-results and if necessary x-rays and I take the blood samples there. Maybe Paula or other vets are also there.

Ina

Thanks

Yes I hope it will be possible, but I have a feeling that people is interested, but when they have to lift there own as up from there sofa and go to the vet and also pay on top of it, they play hard to catch...:lol::lol::lol:

Very best regards / Mikael

Ina, I hope you plan to come to Bratislava sooner thatn end of year! The World Show is in early October!!! ;o)

If it is not too expensive, I am willing to submit Frei's results and DNA sample for test. I even have (or should have somewhere) her hip and elbow x-rays. If scans would be enough, that would be best, as the hip photo is the worse from two which were made (but it should be good too) and we don't get back the photo after evaluation. Her official HD result is A0/0, I don't have official ED results, but the joints seemd good on the picture.

Super. We wait moore info about this all. I cann thake blood example from all LT dogs who have HD ED test, only not have rtg copy. We not have this, only results is written in pedigree.

There is no need for you to bother gathering all dogs together and taking the blood - it costs about 6 Lt (less than 2 euro) to take a blood sample for a dog in Vilnius ;) Guess it is not more expensive in other countries either. So there is no problem at all - only the case of storrage and sending the examples.

Also I guess there is possibility to ask the vets to scan the rtgs and send them to the club, don't you think so?

Yes, good idea. About rtg we mas quest veterinar and know is this posibility or not.

Hello,
I read an article about the HD-Test not long ago...and there was written that breeds with small population only have to bring around 300 dogs. Half of them free, half of them with HD result c,d,e ;-)

I hope that´s correct.
...but Ina will be better informed in a few days...:)

best regards
Tanja

There are over 1600 HD results in the database. About 1200 dogs are still living. But only 200 of them have the result HD-C, HD-D and HD-E....

Technicalyx there is no problem. But because of the "problems" listed by Nebulosa and Ina it make no sence to do this... It is already pretty hard to get the scanned copies... ;)
But in the new database we can add the possiblity to add also the photo of the hips if you want...

PS. We made something more important - we collect information who made the x-rays. So in the new database you will have information not only about the results but also the name of the vet who checked it.

Yes, you right.... We checked the dogs with ED-problems and there are more and more dogs with elbow dysplasia. Mainly because some breeders do not care about it...

The most cases are found in Italy but not because it is "italian probem" but because many dogs are checked there (here I want to say thank you tothe owners who check the dogs!).... But we saw some dogs with visible problems with elbows also in Czech Repoublic and some other countries - nobody speaks about such problem there because almost nobody check the elbows there and the problem stay "hidden".

What I must say: your breed is not free of the elbows problems. It is pretty seldom BUT the the ED seem to be highly inheritated (much more that the HD). So the possibility that offspring of a dog with ED problems will also have ED is VERY HIGH. Because of this we decided to remove all stud dogs with ED worser that ED 0/0 from the stud dog list and suggest the breeders also to check elbows by their dogs. EXPECIALLY in the lines where ED problems appear....

Thanks Margo

As I did suspect, it will not be easy if we will need 500 results...
Hopefully Tanja is right and we will need less ???

Best regards / Mikael

And extra important I think, if it is a vet or a HD committee :rock_3

Regards / Mikael

Hello Margo, thanks for answer about technical problems. Yes, I had seen some dogs with elbow problems on bonitations. Maybe can be good to open disscussion about elbow rtg for all czech dogs- for breeding.
Ina- I will be in Bratislava too, we can speak about it too.
Daiva- why do you mean I will measure or comment any your fotos? No, I will not :lol:.
I like, the people can write about this problem...I want read some other ideas too......
Yes, everybody can give one this foto (X-ray) to normal gallery too, I know.

The most important thing is if it is a vet that has a special and repeated training in this work or if it is any vet that can take a x-ray. And if the systhem is that those vets judge some breeds or any breeds because there are differences.

And I wait for this style reply :) thanks Hanka.
:rock_3
p.s. Hanka if You say - "I see dogs with elbow problems in CZ" maybe better make this ED examination for all breed dogs in CZ, in others country this is make, and we know only max ED 1 cann to breed, but better when dog have ED 0.
In this case Not exist good reproductors in CZ (not all, I special check yet data basa)- this dogs not have ED test. And this for me is moore important not who make HD or are rtg skan in galery or not.

Hanka, maybe You know and cann say: why in CZ people and You not make ED when make HD examination in this same thime? I see dogs who have and HD and ED but moore dogs from You kennel or others big kennel not have this. Thanks for reply.

hello Daiva. But every big new thing, condition for breeding, etc. must go over konference of club. And it will not be this year. We have more new things what we want to do. But we can´t do it from one day to second day. Because we have democration and every member must know about new things and every member can vote if he wants it or no. i hope it will be.
It is easy to breed in country where is not club or 5 members in club :lol:. But we have one big club, two parts of it (for two smaller countries in Czech) and everything must "go over" two parts, two comitets, etc.
In this moment is FOR ME important to know , what male I want use for my female. Not only to read "A" and nothing more. I want see X-ray foto, I want see biting....
It was stupid idea to send me some your foto. I want see it (X-ray fotos)for me, for my private meaning. It can be good for every breeder. I don´t know why I can write you something about some your fotos.
I am not certificated expert, so my meaning is only my meaning. Good for me, for my choosing of male.

We have not ED result like condition for breeding in this time. It is why dogs have not it. Maybe some yes.

I in Your male reklam see and this - You not believe in CZ bonitation when make bite foto. You think bonitation is not good make for Your male or others if You mas see foto? IF remember good cann see in bonitation card all info about dogs bite and teeth. You not believe in vets, not in bonitation commision. paranoic :rock_3
If You interesing male for You PERSONELY female - written to this male owners and please PERSONELY about this who You wish.


hmm interesing You and others breeders make this when mas make? if not - yupieee, not make and not important maybe this dog have max ED? only reguls work. sorry...
Who You say yet is only politic "bla bla bla" :) when in Lithuania make first HD, ED examination for first wolfdog, we CANN breed without this, but make this and all dog have ED and HD. and ours not important who say club. This same have and Poland - he cann breed without HD ED, but make this ( not all :( ) and for this not mas exist club or reguls.

:ehmmm Or not...

I do not care for my own part if the new club for SWH/CsV in Sweden will say Yes or No in the question of demanding HD test for CsV, I will do both HD and ED ether way before I breed...

I just hope for the future of the CsV breed in Sweden it will be a demand :rock_3

I think if you vote Yes like me, way not start where you can make a difference, in your own kennel ;-)

.............
To all

Swedens new SWH/CsV club site www.ssck.se made by Kim Storlöpare and Ninni Erlandsson. Please help us whit working photos to are new CsV gallery :bussi

Very best regards / Mikael

Hi folks,

there is one problem with doing things with your future stud which the local FCI doesn't require - and that is price. As it is not required, only few people want to do it, therefore the demand is low and the prices are high. It is the same with chips in Slovakia - the prices are outrageous. And as I get much lower salary than in most EU and as I cannot sell pups locally for prices like in EU but I have to pay for things almost as much as others in EU I just have to prioritize. So I chipped all my pups, as they were only 3 of them and I wanted to be sure if one gets lost it gets found easier. And I did take X-ray of Frei's elbows, as she was already sleeping and the pictures are not that expensive. But I don't have the official ED results, I just had the vet who X-rayed her look at the pictures and tell me if they are OK so that I can let my dog do crazy things (like climb trees - she does it similar to alpinists climbing rocks). And I don't know any officially good evaluator of ED in Slovakia anyway...

That is the same in Holland. But I’ll speak about this in health committee of the club. Maybe we can suggest owners to make HD and ED in the same time. And later on it is maybe possible to make this a condition for breeding dogs. :)

About HD judgement in Holland:
Only a group veterinarians who have agreement of the RVBH (Dutch kennelclub who gives pedigrees) can make the official HD X-rays.
Then a committee of specialists of RVBH, judges the x rays and the owner receives the results from them in a certificate.
On the official certificate is not only the End result of A,B,C aso.
But also these marks:

Bone deviation

Norberg value

Insufficient connection or Bad connection

Shape change

An then Final: …. Conform international FCI standard

But the number of the Noberg value is difficult to compare with numbers in other countries!:rock_3
For example:
In Holland: the number of the Norberg Vallue is count by left hip number + right hip number
In Belgium: the number of Norberg Value is the ranking in % comparing with other dogs of that breed! (when a dogs has NW 30 it means: 29 dogs have worse NW results and 70 dogs have better NW results. So the average NW will be 50)

bit OT, but I'll post it here anyway.

I don't really get why some things are evaluated in this way. I know that it tells me right away how is my dog in comparison with the rest of the breed today, but it doesn't tell what is the overall population trend. For example if HD would be given as % of population, then my dog having 10% might be great, unless of course the mean value for population is 2 (C) with only 5% of population having clean hips.

You are right. It is strange but in the Eastern Europe you get less money for puppies but you have to pay much more money for every test. You know - it makes the pedigree dogs VERY precious here... ;)

But Daiva was talking about something else. Some time ago there was the topic about bonitations. Some breeders were writing "Everybody MUST have it. It doesn't matter if you have to travel some thousands km and spent some thousands of EUR. Good breeder must make it"....
Now we are talking about ED which is much more important than the bonitation because it is about the HEALTH and the situation is getting MORE and MORE problematic as there are more and more cases of ED problems by CzW (mainly bacause people breed with ill dogs and ED seems to be VERY hereditary). And the same breeders which asked (even forced) other breeders to spent a lot of money to make the bonitation in the case of ED where they do not need to travel and the costs are very small compared to the bonitation have one answer: I do not make it because my club do not require it....:twisted:

Anyway even if it will cause additional costs I will ask the clubs to think about it. Maybe at the moment nobody need to make it obligatory but it would be great to say breeders and stud dog owners that there are more and more cases of ED. And it would be good to check their dogs also for it. It would be good because I personaly removed from my private "stud dog list" dogs which come from the line where ED problems appeared and where the dogs are not checked and I know many serious breeders have done the same... The risk is to high because it is visible that many offspring of dogs with ED also have ED problems (the heredity of ED seems to be MUCH higher than of the HD).

Maybe it also a suggestion to add in which countries dogs did have their x rays!:)
And also when they have different results in different countries.
Then it becomes also more clear all the differences between the way judging in several countries!;-)

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.
And the HD results that they did receive in other countries will not be recognized by most of the kennel clubs.
So only the results of the country where the dog is registered will appear on the pedigree of the dog.

It is a strange rule. Because the more strange is that the same dog can have different results of x rays in 2 different countries!

So I can imagine that some owners make HD x rays in other countries then their own.
And then, the best results are always published here on wolfdog.
And that is why some dogs here have other results then the results that are on the pedigree of their puppies.

It would be nice if all kind of breed clubs also would publish the HD results of dogs that did have x rays in different countries.:rock_3

Then everybody could see that there are differences in judging between specialists and countries and that it is an unfair and strange FCI rule.:)

I never heard about it, because HD test is a clear veterinary thing and have nothing to do with FCI. Can you send a link on the FCI document ? Thank you

In the past I thought the same!:rock_3

But the Dutch kennel organization did confirm me, that it was a decision of the scientific commission of the FCI that did made this decision in 1991.

And this info is also on the site of the RVBH (the Dutch kennel organization) http://www.raadvanbeheer.nl/fokkerij...sie-onderzoek/

To be sure it is not only a crazy Dutch rule ;-), I did ask them to send me the official circular of the FCI of 1991 with this info.
As soon as I have received this, I’ll post it here or add a link.

Yes, Finish Kennel Club did say that this was the FCI roules, when I did talk to them last year...

I do not know about Sweden, but the Finish Kennel Club did think it was OK to do the x-ray in Finland and then send the X-ray to get the result from a expert on the breed in a nother country. But I do not know if they would put that result on the pedigree or not ???

Best regards / M

I fund this little test/study and would like to know what you think of it...
Some info is translated from Swedish.

Source and more info in Swedish.
http://ex-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00002147/01/Sederingsrutinens_p%C3%A5verkan_p%C3%A5_resultatet _av_h%C3%B6ftledsr%C3%B6ntgen.pdf

Very best regards / Mikael

In Germany the dog has to be sedated until full muscle relaxation and the vet has to confirm that.
The other question is who did the examination, was it always the same person, did it differ what was his qualification etc.

Ina

Hello Ina :)

I will try to anser as best as I can ;)

This is some more info translated by google






Very best regards / Mikael