DNA tests and Laboratories
 

A lot of laboratories all over the world are working on several new tests for dog diseases. :)
Of course labs are commercial, so they are developing tests because there is a market for this.
For all the labs, dog owners and dog clubs are a very interesting group, because they have not real commercial /market goals. :rock_3
Most of these labs are asking dog owners to send for free EDTA blood to do their investigations.
And when they have developed a test the same dog owners can pay a lot for this test!:(

Most of the labs (and university's!) are asking 4ml EDTA blood for a genetic test (or for developing a new test).
But to be honest they only need 1 mg to distillate DNA. And the rest of the blood sample they can use for other test of themselves. :)
So the most attractive deal for a lab is to receive hundreds of blood samples of the same breed of group!! (So I do understand the request of the lab that did ask for blood of 500 CsW's for HD DNA research!)

But groups of owners and breed clubs (who can collect a lot of samples for research purposes), can also negotiate with several labs! :)
They can offer them a lot of blood samples for free for research for a specific test. And in exchange for this, they can ask for a reduced price (for all owners who did cooperate) when this test is available.

All kind of labs have tests for different diseases. (there is not a lab who have all the tests for a breed) So they can make their own price for a test. Only sometimes there is a competition because they have developed the same test. (for an other breed there was a test for 250 dollar in US and now the same test in Europe is available for 90 euro;-))

Some general info:

Certification:
It is very important that taking blood samples for tests and DNA storage is conform international control rules! A vet has always to check the chip number. He has to guarantee that the blood sample he send is really of the mentioned dog.

DNA storage:
Every dog owner can storage DNA material of his dog in a lab for research in future. This can by swabs or EDTA blood sample. For storage for longer time EDTA blood is recommended.

DNA - database:
A DNA-database (archive) is a storage where are collected samples of individual dogs. When it is necessary a lab can determinate DNA of 1 mg of the material.

Dog owners , a DNA database, and tests:
Individual dog owners can send a 4 ml EDTA blood for storage in a DNA database. When a owner wants to test is dog, he can send a request to the storage lab to determinate DNA. They only have give their own registration number and ask this Databank lab to send DNA to a specific lab for a test.
The storage lab can determinate the DNA and send it to another lab for a specific test. (The storage lab will ask money for the determination of the DNA, when it is not a test of their own)

DNA research database:
This is also an archive database. But a group (for example a breed club) is owner of such a data base. They manage this database for the health of a population of a specific breed. They can negotiate with labs for developing of tests. But they can also decide to do a test with blood of the whole storage to see how a disease is spread in the population. (and then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount!:rock_3) With a DNA research archive it is with new health problems also possible to see where it did start in the past.

Number of test that is possible of a blood sample:
Of 4 ml EDTA blood a lab needs a mg to distillate the DNA. The number of genetic tests they can do from 4 ml EDTA blood is about at least 200.

DNA profile:
It is also possible to make a individual DNA profile (specific identification) of a blood sample of a dog. In the past several dog owners did this, and did receive a certificate.
But because of technical development since 2006 there is a new international ISAG norm for DNA profile. So the identification of all dogs who did have a profile for 2007 is not right (and legal) anymore. :(
And of course we can expect new specific norms in future! :rock_3
So maybe it is better for owners only to make a profile when they need this for descendant research or covering (conform the norms on that moment)

Maybe it is an idea to create an international CsW DNA research data base. :)
On this moment I really don't know who can arrange this the best!
Maybe the best is a cooperation of breed clubs, who can negotiate with several labs about possibilities. (before storage it is very important to make a deal with a lab about rights, prices aso)

And later on this cooperation can (as owner) manage this research database for all kind of research and tests for the health of the whole population.
And when they have a lot of blood samples they are very interesting for all kind of labs!! :)
So they can also negotiate with several labs for quantum discount and prices for tests.

But maybe this is only my personal thinking for a far future !:rock_3

But till that time I will still test my dogs for several things and I'll try to convince other owners to do the same! :)
Because that is the only way to see how diseases are spread in a breed.

Once again, thanks for info :)

I hope more people will join your idea about an international CSW DNA research database, to me it sounds very interesting.

Greetings Rolf

Well, finally I got through to the person working at the HD-DNA research. It is done by the Veterinary University in Hannover. They do DNA-Blood-storages at their institute the price per blood sample is only 7,-- Euros. At the moment they have quite a lot of research done on dogs HD, Epilepsy, Cardiomyopathy, ED, Genetic Eye Diseases and so on.
Going back to the HD, they want for a start 24 Blood samples, 12 HD A, 12 HD C - E of dogs that are as less related as possible. When we manage to get that far they will talk with us about how to carry on. It may be possible to get this amount in Germany but I would like to ask for international help because the dogs should be of a wider genetic range than we have here. We will at least need 100 HD A and 100 HD C - E to do the research and the price could be (that has to be talked about) as high as 300 Euros per dog! There are possibilities to get money out of research funds.
So please if anybody is interesting in joining the research please get in contact with me: [email protected]
If I see the possibility to get at least 200 dogs I will try to get the best price possible. At least we should try to get a Blood-storage there for further research.

Here are further informations: http://www.tierzucht-hannover.de/hd.html
it is on German but I will start to translate it in English this evening and put it into the forum.

Ina

Thanks Mijke and Ina :)

Ina, Did they need the x-ray photo as well or just the official result and blood ???

Can they do the HD and ED at the same time ???

Do they have a min month time for the x-ray result, as min 18 month for a female and 24 month for a male to get a true and exact result and DNA test ???

Is there any interest from other owners to do eye DNA tests as well ???
And if one have a DNA eye test, is it valid (official) for life and no need to do new eye tests as PRA and more... before every litter ???

Best regards / Mikael

They need the official result - if possible the detailed one - or the x-ray, plus the pedigree and the blood.

There is a working test for GSD that has to be varified for other breeds, the test exists, it´s the same like with the Dwarf test. They work on a test for ED and Epilepsy, when this exists they could do all on the same time. It is possible that I can arrange ED as well but I think we have not enough dogs for that, if your dog has an ED-result like mine do it is surely good to send it with the HD stuff because they could use it someday and they will store the blood.
They didn´t mention that, they wanted an official result.

The eye test is future and I don´t think we have enough dogs for that there are only very few dogs with Glaukoma I know of.
What the breed organisations use the tests for is on their behalf. You still need an HD-x-ray at the moment but you can use the genetic test for judging possible pairings, find out HD-free dogs that have a high amount of HD-genes and so on

.

OK thanks :)

I have 0 tests this far as Hronec is under 24 month, but next month he is and I will do the HD and ED...

When do you think they/you will be ready to receive the blood samples and x-rays... I think I will get my official results first after the summer...

Regards / Mikael

I will translate the official homepage with the forms you need to send to them. This whole test-validation will take more time than summer so don´t worry.
But anyway there is no sense in everybody sending everything directly to the laboratory without coordination what was the reason for asking people who are interested to contact me. Because the lines and pedigrees are important and they want this database readyly collected.
It seems that at least one German Club started thinking about coordinating the datas and work for this test now so if this happens to be there will be a ready computerprogram for the database that can be used what would make the things easier.
If not I will follow Mijkes example (who already offered her help) and do it by myself what might be faster in the beginning and gets things moving as we could see with the Dwarf test and I don´t want to wait any longer, this is not necessary at this point, they need blood of different dogs and lines that´s all.

Ina

The german club already started collecting detailed informations and making plans how to manage the datas and the validation !!! :evil:

Tanja

That is nice to hear now after talking about it so many times and giving you the informations of the university:shock:. I will send my collected datas to you as soon as you give me the adress to give it to.
At least something is moving. Do you want me to translate everything in English or are you doing it?
So it is still possible to contact me as said before, I will make sure that everything goes to the right adresses and places.

In fact - the German Club is involved with it since it was known in Germany, that tests are done - thus as long as you are involved in it ;-). You just got the actual informations one day earlier than we got ;-), since Tanja tried to call the university up the last few days - but didn't have time to call yesterday ;-) A lot of information we had gathered already from the university's website - we just hadn't talked to the person in charge personally so far.

You talked about it on the Englisch Forum - but neither on the German ones nor with any of the clubs - although the tests are in Germany and the German dogs should be involved in first line for the 24 blood tests?

I think, that this is a big project, which for all the breeders and the clubs need to work together to get reasonable results - so that we can reach something useful. It is no sense in only a few single persons acting in such a big project as HD-tests - it will not bring us the needed success.

Besides the 200 dogs that are needed for the examinations, the results of all the testings, also the ones that have to be done furtheron, will have to be handeled in a trustworthy way and recorded in a database, so the breeders and breeding commissions do have the neccessary informations.

It is a project, which will have to be set up internationally, if it should be of value for the whole race in all countries.

Petra

hello Ina,
It is a pity, you don´t know price (best price :rock_3 ) in this moment. I could offer it to all czech owners too. But when I tell them 300Euro in this moment, they will not want to do it. If the price will be better, I think some poeple will want to do it. I can offer my own dogs too, but not 300 :lol:.
Hanka

Hi Hanka,

I know this is a problem and I already talked about it to the University. There is the possibility to get money out of research funds (this would be a good point for Clubs to care about) and it may be possible to get a cheaper price.
But DNA-testing is expensive especially when you talk about getting a new test. At this point they want only 24 blood samples to have a look at it, and I think not at least to find out if the people of this breed are caring enough to get things running. To store a blood sample there costs only 7,-- Euros what is not astronomic. When we have 24 dogs for this they will tell us the price for the whole evaluation and for the later on tests - again there is no test now for our breed, only for GSD it is the same situation like with the Dwarf test some month ago.
I think the best way will be to start to collect people that are willing to join in the project, then talk to the laboratory again showing that we are now able to do the first step and ask them what costs there will be coming. We can do that without sending the blood samples already, then we will be able to get more informations about how to carry on and what costs will occure apart from 7 Euro.

Ina

Sorry, but this is unneccessary and not in favor of the breed, you all knew I was going to get this moving and didn´t inform me, Tanja even did answer on me in this Forum. I think we all should work together on this and the most important thing communicate! Who did what is unimportant politics.
And why should the German dogs only be involved on the first tests? The more different lines the better! As I already told you did the person responsible for this test see no major problem in foreign HD-tests who should know best. At least when we come to the 200 dogs we need international help.

As I already told you on ther German Club Forum: The University is handling the data and is known as extremly trustworthy and everybody who needs it will get the informations. We now at the moment talk about creating a test for this breed that doesn´t exist till know. It is a big project that needs help of every owner and breeder worldwide it is as simple as that and when this test exists the breeding clubs are asked to work together and find a possibility to share the information and use it for breeding programs and not at least think about finances.
When you are willing to use the Club database for gathering all informations that would be great because it is a terrible lot of work without a programm for one person and I don´t yell for it. But if this is used for Club politics of a small Club with little to say or decide within the National Kennel Club I am concerned about sharing information, it obviously didn´t work till this point already. But as I told you before I will give every information needed that is going to my adress to you to create the database needed for the test as soon as you give me the place to send it too.

Ina

Hi Ina, as I told before, I am willing to get blood of Frei collected and send it to you or anybody responsible in this effort. So you can count on me in the first step. But the 300 Euros would be too much for me. Aren't there any fundings for veterinary research available? I mean research of the genetics of such diseases as dysplasia or epilepsy have not only commercial value, but also humane; in medical research a lot of pressure is put on well-being of experimental animals, so good of pets should also be supported.

Hello Saschia, yes their are possiblities to get money out of research funds I directly asked for them because I know that the 300 Euros are a problem for anyone. I think it will be possible to get some money or discounts but before we can talk about money there has to be a concrete proof that there will be enough dogs for a research.
So if the wolfdog world can count of you, great!

Greetings
Ina

Thanks for all the info! :)

Because I know that groups of several breeds did get problems with research labs and university’s (about rights, prices aso) I still have some comments and questions:

Test
Of course I will cooperate with such research (like I did tell you before). But not with € 300 for each dog! :shock:

• Has the university already a validated HD test for an other breed?
• Is this the price of € 300 for an (already for CsW validated) real test?
  
• Or is this a price for research and validation of the test for CsW?

Because for me it would be crazy to pay as an owner such a price for research!
For example:
In other countries there are also labs and university’s working on DNA test for HD. And theses research labs are asking EDTA blood but owners do not have to pay for research!
The university Maisons-Alfort in France is working on a DNA test for PRA special for CsW, owners can send blood, but do not have to pay for research.
Before the dwarfism test was validated for CsW, all owners of carriers could send EDTA blood for free for the research.
And only when the test was real validated and working for CsW, the owners has to pay for the test (about € 100)

Storage
When people pay € 7 for storage a blood sample it is a low price
But what are the arrangements with the lab about this storage??

For example:

• For how long is the storage?
• Who is the owner of the blood sample? The owner? The group that manage the data? The lab?
• And who can decide for what tests the blood is used in future?
• Which other test this university research lab has for CsW breed?
• Can an owner or the group (who manage the data) decide which test will be done with this blood?
• When an owner or the manage group wants to do a test of this storage blood in an other lab, what do they count for distillate DNA and sending to an other lab?

My suggestion for an international DNA research database for CsW breed, was based on an international group (of breeding clubs) that can manage this database for the health of the whole population. :)
But also to provide that owners have to send blood for every new test, or has to pay a lot for research or tests! :rock_3

When an international “manage group” has a lot of blood samples of the same breed in storage, they are very interesting for several labs!!
So such an int. group can negotiate with labs for developing/research of tests. And then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount for tests!

And I hope the German initiative will work out in this way! :)

Mijke thanks a lot for your last post :)
I had some of the same questions and think your idea sounds very sensible and gives my full support to this...
Ofcourse I will be happy to send blood samples too, but only when the best solution have been found and people can agree on working internationally together on this solution ;-)

I have already send bloodsample for Pituitary dwarfism and are now waiting for answer and in the beginning of this week I made eyetest(17 different eye diseases incl. PRA) for both of my dogs and they were both free :sooo_hapy ...but I would appreciate a DNA test for both PRA and HD/ED as well.

Greetings Rolf

I don't even have a CsV yet, but I just want to say that am continually impressed with everyone involved in developing this breed. There are so many medical and genetic things we know these days, and it's wonderful to see people at the birth of a new breed taking advantage of everything science has to offer. I truly believe that this is the way people should be developing new breeds in the future, to avoid the mistakes made with purebred dogs in the past.

So, thank you for all your hard work! :)

Hello Mijke,
thank you for your post, you are I think at the moment the most experienced person for this questions.
There is a validated test for GSD they evaluated and that is working.

I also think 300 Euros is definetly too much for most of us. The lab didn´t tell me a price, I wanted to have at least some information and asked what could be the highest price we talk about, they themself did mention directly the possibilty of funds and said it is something that can be talked about.
They will start to discuss prices when they have proof that we are able to get the first 24 dogs (we all know there is often much enthusiasm in the beginning but nobody left in the end) and on their homepage they are looking for blood samples for HD, ED, Epilepsy.
So I started with asking for dogs, when we have enough for the first step of 24 we will be able to get more answers and I don´t think we should send any blood samples before this question is cleared. but I will try to get more answers tomorrow because talking about ist there occured more questions.
This is good to know and it also shows the problem of international communication. I think we should in general look for dogs and owners that want to join in. HD is one of the main problems and to have a test would be very good. If we have in general a group of persons that are willing to undergo all this we can start to ask the different labs and look for possiblity, working tests and prices.
The 7 Euros are for storage, DNA-Isolation and the management of the samples, there are no further costs for that. It should be possible to use this database for every genetic test provided. I will ask for ED and Epilepsy and of course for the rest of your questions.

They work the following way: With the data they get and the DNA-data they form a database for the breed, if it is representativ they look for the markers and make a markerset for a genom breeding valuation of the dogs, then they varify this markerset again on a group of dogs and build up a selction program for the breeding clubs.
As far as I did understand the program this would be possible with this University and they won´t care about which country and would work out the management for the Clubs. But anyway this would have to be done in a lab, no breeding club can make a storage itself. So this is at least a question of which lab would be best looking at the costs and the tests they provide and the cooperation they offer. So maybe for a start it would be a good idea if every known lab would be asked for this question. And I personally think it will not be possible to get this working with Clubs alone there should be a scientific management to prevent politic problems, we should be realistic in this.
I think Hannover is a good suggestion but if we find anything better, great! I don´t care which country.
But as far as I know at this moment Hannover is the only one with a ready validated test for HD.
And of course to ask for all of this we would need to know about of how many dogs we can offer.

Ina

As I got to know the last days the German Club is working on this and they want to talk about costs and procedure themself so we can wait and see.
But I think in general it would be a good idea if everybody knowing about labs that do research and databases should ask them the same questions or things will simply take to long and we all should keep in touch and talk about results.
And still it would be good to know who is interested in this programm. I already got contacted by several people doing a great job, we should carry on with this it will speed up things a lot when we got the lab fixed.

Ina

As I understand from an earlier topic on this subject, the DNA test for HD is mush more complex then the Dwarf DNA test, and will take mush more research, lab time and dogs (200)… and I think the price therefore is not so high compered to the Dwarf test…

But I understand it will not be easy to get 200 owners to pay 300 euro, especially when some has more then one dog, and it will not be possible for owners in some country’s to pay this neither…

What I’m trying to say is, I do not think any other lab will do or can do a DNA test for the CsW breed for less than 300 euro/dog… not today anyway… (if not the lab Mijke knows can do it for less)

But I think that Ina has find the right lab, as it already have a funtion HD DNA test for GSD, and work whit DNA tests for ED and epilepsy to…

I think we are to try to find a way to get funds, but I do not think that will be easy, unless the lab can help us whit that…

I do not know the price for normal HD x-ray in Germany, but in Sweden I think it is about 200 euro including the official result… therefore by Swedish standard a HD DNA test for 300 euro sounds reasonable...

Best regards / Mikael

If you are all having issues with paying that much to fund the research, why not try something like fundraisers to help pay? Hosting things like a dog walk where people pay an amount like $20 (whatever an equivalent for you would be) to participate is a great way to raise money like that. All you'd have to do is find a place to do it, throw a cheap lunch together, and explain to people why it's a good cause. You can also encourage participants to raise extra money on their own to help donate.

Also, would it be possible to take donations at dog shows? You could explain to people that the money goes towards genetic HD research.

There's no reason the money for the research has to be placed souly on the owners of the dogs. This type of research benefits EVERY dog breed, because all research has to start somewhere. I'm not sure how feasible all this would be for all of you (I know this type of thing is very common in the US, though) but I figured I'd throw it out there for you, just in case. :)

In Sweden we have about five CsV, and most people do not know that the breed exist at all, most of the people at the Swedish Kennel Club think it is not a recognized breed, and some insurance company´s will not insure are hybrid´s :lol:

I think it might work better whit a big breed like GSD... but the CsW breed is a very small and reare breed ;-)

But I did ask people here before if we should start a CsV fundation, for future blood lines... the answer I got, was that there was no money needed :lol: So :ehmmm maybe we can ask the clubs to pay :lol:

Or start a CsV fundation now fore future health problems and blood lines :rock_3 ???

Best regards / Mikael

Ina: There is a validated test for GSD
Mijke: • Is this the price of € 300 for an (already for CsW validated) real test?
Ina: The price for the 24 dogs is 7 Euros for the storage from the 200 on it is 300 per dog

And all the people who want to pay € 300 for each dog for research, what do they have to pay when the test is really validated?? (what is the price for GSD owners for the test?)
Or then the new test is for FREE for these owners??

Mijke: • Who is the owner of the blood sample? The owner? The group that manage the data? The lab?
Ina: The lab

Hmmmmm…. Personal I am never happy with such deals when a lab is a owner of a database….

Mijke: • And who can decide for what tests the blood is used in future?
Ina: The lab but you can say you don´t want your blood to be used for anything else

That is not the problem I mean….
All labs/university’s who are asking 4ml EDTA blood for a specific test are also collecting blood for themselves. And they use this for all kind of research.

But when an individual owner storage blood in a data base, this owner can every time decide by himself which test he want to do from that blood (in all kind of labs). And he can ask the storage lab to distillate DNA and send to another lab.

The same a group of owners of an DNA research data base can do the same. But they also can ask several labs to do research for a specific test because they have a lot of blood samples (and that is interesting for a lab)

BUT when a lab is an owner they can decidewhat they want to do with the blood! And in future it is possible that they do not want to send distelated DNA of such a group to an other lab for test or research.

Maybe I did understand wrong, but I think this is not the price for a HD test! (Because there is yet not a HD test validated for CsW)
I think this price is only for research, so they can validate the test in future.

And of course when there ever will be such a HD test in future that makes that a owner do not have to make x-rays, then the price is reasonable :rock_3

There will be not one lab that will do a DNA test for a disease for Free!:lol:
But there are labs that are doing research for free! ;-)(like the lab in Frence that is working on PRA test specific for CsW)
And only when they have a validated test for the breed owners have to pay for such a test.

I don't think it necessarily needs to be a whole big organization or anything, just dog owners/lovers of any breed that want to give a little something to help research. People give donations all the time to help fund research for all sorts of diseases that face humans, I think people might be interested to help fund research for dogs as well. Just getting people together for one day to raise money wouldn't have to be a whole start of an organization or anything. But, I can see a problem if it's in a general population that is very spread out, this sort of thing works best in highly populated areas, like urban cities or suburbs, that's why I suggested hitting up people at dog shows.

All I'm saying, is it doesn't just have to be for CsV owners. It doesn't even have to be by people that know what the breed even IS, the fundraising could help spread awareness of the breed, as well! :)

No, I think you got it all right, it will be research the first 200 dogs and maybe more, if they not can find some short cut (resemblance from the GSD tests) to make it whit less individuals, as I understand that is why they wont 24 dogs to se if there is a resemblance to the DNA HD pattern on the two breeds :confused2

But if they need 200 dogs or more that is about all owners and breeders that are interested to do the HD DNA test today, and after that it will not be eny big money to earn for the lab, just a cople of tests per year, I think that is way they will demand money from the start ???

As I understan there is about 7000 CsW in the world, the number of GSD is probably way over 1´000´000 dogs, therefore I think that most labs that do HD DNA research for a small breed like the CsW will demand money from the start...

But if we can find a good lab that do HD DNA research and wont a small population to do research on, I will be very happy to pay less :) or the 300 euro after we knows that the DNA test will be valid and approved :)

But I think are chances are very small, and we will have to pay the 300 euro from the start :( if we can not find any funds...

But I agree, that we must be the one to own the data base and blood samples, if the lab wonts to do more research that might help are breed maybe we can send two blood samples from the start ? one for us and one for them ??? and mayby we can get a discount on are 300 euro in exchange :ehmmm ???

Best regards / Mikael

Hello again

Just wonder how the results from a HD DNA test would look like ???

Is it just positive or negative, or can one see the degrease and risks in % ???

Can somebody link to a HD DNA test result from a GSD ???

Kindly regards / Mikael

Hello all,
I called yesterday the president of the fund " Gesellschaft für kynologische Forschung"
The president told me that they had this year only 60.000€ to spend, that she thinks next year it will be less and that there are so many institutions who want to get some money from them.
So we have no chamce to get any money from them. Our breed is too small and healthy. And our HD-project is not important for many people...:cry:

She also told me, that she does not trust in a test based on just 200 blood samples. For the german shepherd test they had thousands of blood samples.

@Mijke: what do you think about this? I am not experienced with validation of those tests. Is she right? How can we get to know if the test will be really good or if there will be more or less wrong results. (before we have to pay lots of money...)

She told me to think about spending so much money on a maybe not very good test or maybe better talking to some Experts for genetics and work together with them.

so, what´s the right way?
Tanja

I am not Mijke but I read publications in vet-magazins about it and tried to find out more since almost a year.
When they did the GSH-test there wasn´t any test workin at all, when you have a test you can see by much smaller numbers if there is a correlation, to find out if there is a correlation they need the 24 dogs, if there isn´t any correlation they anyway won´t carry on. The 24 dogs will cost only 7 Euros each. If we stop there and wait how things show in future we still would have the possibility to carry on later.
The most important question is how much the test results correlate with the breeding results, to know that we would need to know how long the GSH do select with this test and if the HD-statistics show a signific decrease of HD,
:shock:The test was validated by the genetic institute of a veterinary university by experts on dog-genetics.
I think this is the point when everybody who knows about labs that do databases or knows about genetic projects on dogs should try to find out about the conditions of those labs.
We should start with a database as soon as possible and keep informed about all research projects.
I also think we should keep in touch with the HD-test in Hannover and find out how to raise funds for research. And we can only do all of this on an international basis. Research on dog genetics goes on worldwide.
So it makes sense to now collect people and dogs that are willing to cooperate. If we have a database with all informations research projects do need we could start at once. To build up an international database will take a lot of time.

What seems to be not that clear is even if tests like that in Hannover do work and show a signific benefit, the validation of this kind of test takes 1-2 years. If we build up a new group of people and a new database and so on for every test of interest we all won´t live when the first test can be started.
It makes most sense to build up a database in the best lab we can find for this and have everything ready when there is a project of interest.

Ina

Hi Ina,

Thanks for explanation!

I agree that it is worth to start with the 24 CsW to see if there is any correlation with GSH results in the test. :)
So witch CsW lines are you looking for? Are there any specific CsW’s in a country that they need? Which line/dog in Holland can they use? (on wolfdog-healthinfo. you ca find all Dutch CsW with HD results)
Please mail me when you need help from Holland.;-)

And when there is a correlation, we first can look how it did work out in GSH world before we start with the expensive testing.

Of course an international CsW DNA database would be wonderful! :)
But I am afraid that there will be first a lot of problems about who will/can manage this data base and who will be the owners. :shock: And also what we will do with breeding policy to reduce health problems that can be tested.

Maybe the most easy and simple start is that all CsW owners send EDTA blood for DNA storage to the same lab.
So every dog owner remains the official owner of the DNA storage of his dog. And everybody here can announce if they have send DNA for storage in this lab.:)

And maybe then it is possible to make on this site a list of all CsW with a storage of blood in that lab.

When in future there are interesting test (for example PRA or epilepsy) or a lab needs blood for validation of a test for CsW, we can write about this on the forum.
And every individual owner can decide to cooperate or not.

So on this moment it is maybe an idea only to choose a lab with a good price for only storage and good price and conditions for DNA distillation.

On this moment I know a lab in Germany where individuals can send EDTA for only DNA storage for €16,50.
When owners want to send DNA to another lab, they will not charge additional money for sending DNA.
The only thing is that storage there is only for 10 years.
And I do not know yet what are their possibilities and conditions for longer storage.
But I’ll inform you later!

HI Mijke,
They need as many different lines as possible. I think the easiest way will be if everybody interested (especially those with HD-dogs) get in contact and we will decide wich dogs make most sense. I already was offered help from Italy and the Czech Republik and Slovakia, of your country and of course from Germany and France. It shouldn´t be so difficult to find the best first 24 dogs.
That was exactly what I had in mind. Find the best lab and as many people as possible who send blood there. When we got this far we can go on to the next steps.

Ina

Hi Tanja,
For me it is more easier to ex-plain in Dutch! But I ‘ll try to explain it simple in English language.:rock_3

Personal I think something else is mentioned with “validation” between the DNA dwarfism test and de DNA HD test.

When genetic specialist are doing research for a genetic mutation it costs years.
I’ll try to explain how it did work with the dwarfism test:

The specialists did start to compare DNA of dwarfs, their parents (= carriers), brothers, sisters with other dogs (which they did know they were free). This research did take years and a lot of blood samples! And in this case the genetic specialist could locate the mutation! And they were lucky that the mutation for dwarfism is “single“ recessive mutation. (I don’t know the correct translation)
When they did know where to look for this dwarfism gen mutation, they could compare the mutated gen of the GSH with a SWH who was a proven carrier (parent of a dwarf) and then the test was also validated for SWH.

After that I only had to find only 1 CsW dwarf or 1 proven parent of a dwarf to validate the dwarfism test for CsW breed. (because the mutation was "single" already known and theyonlydid have to compare)

But for a DNA HD test it will be maybe more complicated! :shock: Because a lot of genetic specialist expect that HD is not caused by a “single” recessive mutation but will have “multi factor” causes.
Maybe there is not yet found an exact location of a gen mutation. And they have found only the differences in DNA between HD A and HD D/E dogs.

That also explains why they first need 24 CsW’s to see if the differences are the same. And when that is a fact, later on they can compare a lot more CsW’s with and without HD to find the exact differences. And so in future they maybe can find the DNA mutations that causes HD. But that will take a lot of time!!

But maybe I am wrong! So please Ina, correct me when there are other reasons why they need more Csw’s for validation.

HD is for sure caused by several genes, that has to be so because there are more than one bone involved in the joint and there are different forms of causes of HD (to small Caput femoris, to low Norberg degree and so on). Though it is no longer discussed that HD is a genetic desease there are factors like too much training or too highly energetic food in the growth period that have a great influence on the severeness of the genetic caused desease.
So there is not only one reason or one gene mutation that has to be found but very likely the combination of genetic factors that is the reason, at least several different genes. That of course makes research much more difficult, takes much more time and dogs.
Anyway every genetic test that has been validated on one breed has to be checked on every new breed because there are defects with identical symptoms but caused by different mutations. But when you already have one working test you look in every new breed if the genes for the defect are the same or not. If you look for one mutated gene like in the dwarf test you only need one dog, if you look for different genes like in polygenic defect like HD you need more dogs because one dog with HD E may show a defect on the genes 1+3 and the other on 2+4 (just as an example, I am not that far in detailes about this test), or the combination of 1+4 causes severe HD, the combination of 1 + 2 doesn´t.
So as far as I understood they only need 24 dogs to check if they show the same mutations but about 200 to validate a working test.

Hello Ina and/or Mijke,

I am trying to follow this post, but sometimes it is a little too technical for me... something I would like to know(I think Mikael also asked this question earlier) is how excat will a HD DNA test be, I mean if they only have found the difference between HD A and HD D/E ? does this mean that, when the test is validated, it will only be possibe to say if the result is very good or very bad(not as excat as xray) ? ...or did I misunderstand ?

Thanks for keeping this very interesting topic public, so I(and others) can follow this :)

Greetings Rolf

Ina did have contact with the university.
So I think she can explain the best , what on this moment the (validated) DNA test for the GSH exactly can tell about the HD of a individual GSH.

I just asked them to make sure I didn´t get anything wrong.
In future it will be possible to make a selection of studs or dogs with this test and you can already start in puppyage. You can say which dogs are likely to get HD, which pairings are not sensible to make or which dog should be left out of breeding.
At this actual period you need both the x-rays and the blood to control the test (Yes I also think they can´t charge 300 Euros for that at the moment!!) and there is no result of breeding-selection at the moment in GSH, what means it will take several years till you will have statistics.
I still think this is a test of very high value for every breed but I also agree that there is no sense to pay for it as long as we have to pay for it on our own because the benefit at the moment for the breeder himself is low and our breed isn´t able to bring up this amount of money for a research projekt.

So in my opinion we should start with a blood bank, make a database for that dogs and wait for interesting research projects and the result of the test in the GSH.
DNA-tests will be the future and a good thing to avoid health problems in breeds so we should get ready for that.

Hi Ina,

Thanks for your answer :)

So this is how I understod it : for many years to come, xrays will still be necessary and sometime in a far away future, it will be possible to give only HD-results "good" or "bad" by DNA, but not more specific than that... and maybe in an even further away future it will be possible to give exact(A,B,C,D,E) HD-results from DNA ...for both GSD and CSW !

Please correct me if I am wrong ?

Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf,

I don't think you'll ever be able to give HD A/B/C/D by DNA, as there is a lot of environmental influence on the definitive results. But you'll be able to say if the dog or it's offspring will be more or less succeptible to having dysplasia or not. You can never rule out damage made by irresponsible owners (like hard training of obese dog during it's development).

Exactly, the systhem of A,B etc. was created apart from telling how severe the problem of the specific dog is to say something about his breeding worth (I am sure that is not the right English word but hope it is understandable). If a dog is A,B or C doesn´t matter for the dog, even the C is not likely to cause problems in a family dog but it is important if you look a pairings. When you can judge about this by DNA there is no need for this classification any longer.

If you look at some A dogs you will find that an A and even As over several generations don´t grant for A offspring. A very good example are the brothers Good Boy and Grey Wolf z Molu es, they are even out of one litter but the HD-results of their offspring are two different worlds (and some of the bad resulst seem to have been removed) and nobody can tell me this all results in stupid puppy-owners ore classification sythems, it´s bad luck in genetics. If we would have a test we could say in advance how the results of a pairing are likely to be.

Hi Saschia & Ina,

Thanks for you reply :)

I understand that the DNA-test can not give an exact result of the degree of HD in a specific dog(due to environmental influence), but can the DNA test not say something about what degree of HD the specific dog have purely geneticly ? if it will be in % or by A,B,C,D,E can only be a matter of how to calgulate it ...I think ?

Greetings Rolf

Yes as far as I did understand it can. And It can tell if a for example C-dog is likely or not to give HD to its offspring. There are a lot of good dogs lost for breeding because of their result, if you could proof it´s not a genetic problem in this specific dog you could use it.

This should be stressed as a great thing for this test - and also, that it will not tell you what is the state of your dog's hips, but how likely it is that his/her offspring will get HD, and also if you test the dog young, how much effort you should make preventing bad hips in your dog - if he is genetically succeptible, you can still prevent him getting severe arthritis in later age by correct food and supplements and training (like hydrotherapy) since the young pup (much sooner than you can get any valid X-rays), while if your dog is genetically healthy, you can save money and invest it in some other pleasures for your dog and actually don't need to anesthetize your dog and have it x-rayed, unless it shows some signs of illness...

Thanks for your answer :)

Greetings Rolf

Thanks Ina, Mijke and Saschia for ALL answers :)

Just one more question... When the lab now asks for 24 dogs with official HD results, and clearly vets are saying that only a HD test on a large breed dog like the CsW is (100%) exact at the age of minimum 18 month for a female and 24 month for a male...

Is there not a good idea to send them as exact info as possible :rock_3 = official HD tests after this ages ???

I mean, way send the lab bad or incorrect info to base there new DNA test on :wink: And what would be the risk if they get incorrect results on this first 24 dogs ???

Best regards / Mikael

The easiest thing would be to send the x-rays themselves or/and the detailed judgement. For German HD-results they only need the detailed judgement.
We can use German dogs as far as possible and continue with other dogs with x-rays and judgements. 24 dogs is not as difficult as 200.
Very many dogs are x-rayed with digital techniques now that makes copies very easy.

...another problem with sending HD-results from different countries could be that not all countries/vets. will classify the same dog in same way(sometimes a dog can have HD A at one country/vet. and HD B at another country/vet.), in Denmark you will only get to know if the dog have HD A, B, C, etc... no detailed info and the xrays is not given free to any private person, only other vets. can apply for the xrays ! ...but maybe the lab. will be an exception ?

So maybe the lab. should only use HD results from dogs with detailed info. or xrays ?

Greetings Rolf

It can only use those. But if they get a copy of the x-ray this would be enough.