Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor --- Killed by Wilczy Duch kennel?!
 

I had post it on the Milo's 13 birthday topic opened by Shaluka at this forum.
So, I'm looking for informations about Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor---, dog that as far as I know was rescued by Shaluka, the owner of Wilczy Duch kennel, and soon after had to find another owner, after it no more informations about him or his whereabouts was known, no photos, no datas, absolutelly nothing, seeking for informations about him I received a phone number of his suposed owner, phone which never worked, also I listened some rumors about he being euthanasied, lose and so on.
Seems that not only I have interess in know more about this dog, but more people...
So I wondered, what happened with this dog? Someone have informations about?

I will post here what I posted on Polish Forum, as there was no replies at all, so I will consider that it confirmed the rumors I listened, that Wilk is death.

This were a topic I opened in English forum, after see that Shaluka opened a topic about Milo's Birthday:
Someone may ask here why does people had such interest in Wilk while before Shaluka "save his life" nobody cared for him, its simple, mostly of owners and breeders does not knew about his existence before this topic and only because that no one talked or searched about him before.
I know little bit about Rodomir as I have dog from him, I have a small idea about the condition that his dogs lives because I had pick up my dog personaly with him, as a breeder I know something about the lines of his dogs and have my own toughs about it.

As everyone knows already, Wilk is a very close inbreeded dog, I mean here that he is not only a mere "inbreeding in Iran", if we does not consider the genetical diference between full brothers as Hexa and Ciba Zemplinska Oblast' are, and threat the full brothers like one dog only, Hron will be also a mate between two half brothers like Wilk in first sight.
Wilk is a inbreed between half brothers having his father already coming from a inbreed, he is more close than a common half brothers mate.
Also his bloodline is not such common in CzW breeding being very interesting to be used.

Its not new that CzW have a very small genetic pool, also that closing lines in inbreeding will set good characters as bad ones, principaly when we remember about poligenic recessive traits that can simply pop in inbreeded litters, traits that can increase the number of unviable fetus and then cause a small number of pups born as well as weak pups and defectives, that often comes to die within the first days.

The conditions of Rodomir kennels would not allow weak or defective pups to survive long time and it also can explain why some of his litters were such small, if Wilk had such problems surely he would not have survived living at such conditions, looking at the first photo of this topic we have a young dog, I would bet about 7 months, so that means his pup and youth time were passed with Rodomir.

That makes Wilk such special and interesting dog, he is not only a inbreeding in a not common line as he had almost survived at what we could call "natural selection", something that some pressupposed healty litters would not be able to survive.
Surely Wilk would be a interesting dog to be used in breeding after we check his hips and elbows results, as inbreeding in not common line, with such wolfish appearence he could be used for open and refreash the line of some dogs in almost outcrossings, without such huge loss of wolfish characteristics, what we can say that's pretty common to happen sometimes.

When I saw this topic I were so happy that Wilk had fall in the hands of one breeder, even if he does not have pedigree, for me it would not be difficult to get as the rules of our club are different, and with DNA test and the pedigree of the mother I would be able to do his pedigree as if he were born here, I talked with Shaluka by Skype saying her about this possibility, I received a nice reply that what she most cares for was Wilk happiness and finally a decent definitive home for him, where he could have a good life and peace, pedigree does not matter, maybe in future tough about it, I found it a nice attitud.

To my amazement reading Polish forum for traine the language, I discouvered months after it that he has been donate to someone else, a policeman, no photos, no datas, I asked for Daiva the number of the new owner, as she had received it in private, I tried to phone and nothing.
Reading her blog and reading better this forum I understood that the main problem was how dagerous Wilk could be for her incoming child also about lack of time for work with him, but while she was giving up on Wilk she were bringing Kala, a new dog?!
A spark of memorie makes me remind when I asked her about the character of Wilk, about possible problems and the reply I received was something like "I'm also behaviourist", how could a behaviourist give up a problematic dog because it was supposed a danger for her child?

Reading a italian forum I saw he being called Hamlet, well to tell the truth I get really chocked after it, I've read the rules for make the pure breed certified in Italy, and seems its such a work for who does not live there, that make it looks like if as it was not possible to make the pedigree in a easy way, she give up and so discarded the dog with someone else, disappearig with him.

I already followed several cases of adopted addult dogs that few months after the adoption disappeared, mostly of them soon we discouvered were put for sleep by the pressupposed "new owner" or simply were abandoned in somewhere, unfortunately, for all I can read seems that the history repeated, but this time we lost a dog wich could contribute for the breed.
Its even funny because I've also heard rumors about Wilk had been put for sleep, but are only rumors still.

Today I discouvered that after Shaluka had someone else interested in adopt Wilk if she choices to not stay with him, looks like she choice to addopt him, I wonder, why? For disappear with him, maybe kill him?
I wonder if had people ever though about the fact, that this dog had survived all this way for someone with child tough play with his life, show itself as "hero" in a public forum and after end with him, at least it looks like it.

Sorry, but it does not make sense at all, but for me it shows a more deep problem... you're not an "mere" owner, but a breeder.

Shaluka, you were not able to solve the problem of Wilk and disappeared with him with such weak excuse, as breeder you should keep in mind that you're responsible for every dog you put in this world, and that its not rare owners not be able to keep a more difficult animals and give it back to the breeder when they're addult and really problematic because of some mistakes made by them, what would you do? give up on this addult problematic dog because it could be a dangerous for your child? because you have no time? maybe put him for sleep and simply dont give any news about him for who're interested, after all, such news would burn your reputation as breeder, right? So better hides the face in the sand like a Ostrich and let all pass.

But I also wonder how could you as breeder does not have idea about genetic, selection and the line of the breed you supposedly breed at the point to simply disappear with a dog like Wilk? Maybe you were so selfish that simpy forget that other people could be interested in use Wilk futurely.

You had no time so give up a dog while pick up another two.
You fear for a possible accident with an "problematic dog" while you breeding.
Its almost a paradox
Sorry, but dogs are not toys.

Hi,

Let me ask some question:
Do you know Saluka ? I think no, otherwise you wouldn't write what you did!
As I see you are again speaking-tube of that person who always stay behind the curtain and drive her toys...................

Edit

but Wilk/Hamlet... disapeare :?........

maybe yes, maybe not
Give Agnieszka to chance to answer....
and there are a lot of dogs which were dissapeared.....................not only Hamlet
But I realy hate that some of us use open forums to attact somebody
Agnieszka is not bad person, and she is good with her dogs.
I'm sure you know Agnieszka....and place of Rado as well......................

Edit

yes, we wait antswer with info and foto. and wait veeery long time, but she not antswere. but maybe now all people becam antswer for she. I hope...
Yes I know she, I know too well .....

Of course for you she is a very nice person, as she had buyied your dog and made the X rays with 15 months by MKOE, as we can see in Polish Forum.
I think you should read again what I wrote for see how I get involved in this history, but if you're being mistaken by her lies, im sorry, maybe one day you will awake.
But if you want to be her "speaking tube" good luck. :lol:

The difference is that no owner of these dogs had published how heroic their act was for "save the life of the poor dog" in a publish forum, much less a "heroic breeder".
Not only that, disappeared dogs because the owner is unknown as the breeder who sold the pup does not payed attention to mantain the contact with him is pretty different of a breeder wich give away a dog that he supposed saved and simply threat the fact as if he does not had ever existed.

Everyone already gave, including this what I wrote stayed at Polish forum waiting her reply for months!!

Exactly, Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor--- would be a very interesting dog for diversity, he is in the top O,8% living CSV regarding mean kinship.

Indeed, that's why everybody's after him.
Including me...

Michael

The father can be used in countries where bonitation is not required and in fact he already has.

What I understood was that Wilk is (was?:() unique in this sense that:
1. his parents' matching cannot be repeated for obvious and justified reasons, which Paula and Saschia mentioned

2. high inbreed carries risk of reinforcing faulty genes, but Wilk seemed to be exceptionally strong and healthy - he survived in very tough conditions as the only pup from the 'unwanted' litter.

3. I haven't seen the dog live, but all who did were amazed how beautiful and wolfish he was. Shaluka kept posting for several months about his exceptional beauty and sweet nature and probably had a good reason to drive him to Italy and arrange with Alessio attempts to get him a pedigree, though at the beginning she had claimed Wilk would only be her "beloved pet". Had those attempts been successful she'd have probably used him as rep anyway. Why otherwise should she have undertaken all the efforts and apparently, costs?

I've read somewhere that under special "controlled" conditions highly inbred typical and healthy males (never females!) may be used in breeding with genetically far related females to reinforce certain features of appearence or character. If they turn to give healthy and nice offspring, they may be later used to open new breeding lines.

Not being a specialist in genetics, I'm not sure how true or valid this info is, but I suspect that's what Paula and Michael had in mind when stating their interest in Wilk...

PS The story has two layers: genetic and moral. I'm not going to comment about the latter except expressing my surprise that Edit speaks so lightly of 'disappearance' of ANY dog, including Wilk. :(

Who else than you? :) (met you on the French forum some time ago)

Thank you :):):)

stupid question: who was the last who saw wilk? and when? and where?

Maybe not stupid, but... illogical ;):) How can someone know if he was the last or not? :p

by date :roll:

I came across this topic, which apparently faded away. Just out of curiosity: is there any news about Wilk / Hamlet?

I guess there is nothing new, it only confirms the rumors that Wilk has been put to sleep. :cry:

I'm with no words to say how wonderfull this dog seems to be, I wanna know where he's too!!

New photos of Wilk appeared in the gallery... does anybody know how old they are? Wilk looks quite young on them so I'm afraid they're not very recent...:(
http://www.wolfdog.org/temp/1290524313-1112909.jpg

But maybe the person who sent them knows something about his fate?

At my home, 10,11 febrary 2008, old photos.

Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.

he are "NON FCI" not "MIX".

in forum are thema about this - read explanation from admin.

It was a mistake corrected by Admin.

The parents were FCI but were highly inbred, very young and without breeding rights when the pups were born. Later one of them recieved P14 on bonitation, so the litter could not have been registered officialy in Slovakia. Wilk was the only pup that survived from the whole litter. There was an attempt to register his pedigree in Italy, but it seems it was never completed, thus the dog is non-FCI in the database.

In the light of the conversation about Iran Z.O. (one of the dogs least connected with Rep) Wilk would have been even more valuable for breeding. Iran is/was? his double grandfather.

Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?

OK. You're right, he wouldn't. ;-) I'm not a breeder and agree with all what breeders tell me. 8)

And because both parents were without bonitation at that age that a dog like Wilk must be not used, and if he get lost, well no one cares, after all the parents had no bonitation and he come from a INBREEDING (such horrible word).
No one cares if he would be great to open lines, without lost wolfish features, thing that Slovak club already tried by using Czech dogs and so far I know it mostly wasn't a good experience.


Well, no one cares for it, both parents had no bonitation and that's all.
Besides, who cares for genetic?
:lol:

Paula, it is not because the parents did not have bonitation only. It is because it was a very bad breaking of a lot of rules, it was because it was hushed up till the last minute by the breeder, it is because it was brother and sister, where the brother was a pup still and so we couldn't even know what defects he will have (and he grew up to have many), and if we would give papers to such puppies than I really don't know why not give papers to everything that has four legs and says Woof.

I don't know why a lot of people here make some kind of half-god from Hron RD. First thing - if you really want to breed with him, there is a way. Second thing - he has a sister who passed a bonitation and other things and can have legal puppies, and she is the same blood. The Y chromosome doesn't carry anything that important...

Inbreeding is not a horrible word, after all, all the CSWs are inbred in their ancestry, but is is horrible to say it doesn't matter that this puppy is an inbred accident but he should get papers because he is a SON OF HRON RD.

Paula (Nebulosa), I care for genetics and I have to agree with you. From a genetic point of view Wilk/Hamlet is most certainly very special; through advancing insight and despite the fact that several rules were broken. He's inbred from a very uncommon line, with a extremely auspicious position in the Mean Kinship ranking (he's in the top O,8% living CSV regarding MK). That makes him theoretically very useful to maintain the (ever narrowing) gene pool.

Descendants of many hypothetical breeding combinations with him, will know a low COI, very below average (measured on all generations). Almost impossible to achieve nowadays with other Csv's. All this, of course, except for possible genetic defects present, which certainly should be considered.

The comparison with Rep is not correct: Rep caused a massive inbreeding in all lines in a very early stage of the development of the breed, with a sharp reduction of the gene pool as a result. Wilk/Hamlet however, might just be itself highly inbred, but at the same time can give a very positive contribution to the fragile gene pool as it evolved nowadays almost 30 years after Rep; that makes it significant different. The possible use of him could almost be regarded as a kind of outcrossing, which is very special to mention in the closed population.

I think he's breath taking from the pictures. Most importantly however, is that I hope he currently has a good home, wherever he may be. All together, I have my doubts about that :(.... Especially since the last owner wraps in silence, while she too is the subject of speculations.

Regards

buidelwolf, I cannot agree with you. I agree that higly inbred animals from some relatively Rep-free lines might be very valuable for breeding, although there may be some arguments against this particular line, but I am not going into that. My argument is not that such animal is not correct to use, my argument is that it is incorrect to use Hamlet. Why? For the same reason why it was incorrect to try to introduce new wolf blood to CSW through Mutaras. This is a thing that requires planning, and selection of the animals to use to create such inbred studs. And that was missing from both Hamlet and Mutaras. It is still possible to create inbreds, even from the same animal, in better conditions, but at least now we will know about what we are bringing into the population, not a complete unknown as Hron was when he mated his sister. Now we at least know that he has bad legs, long tail, darker eye (the tail and eye are of course minor) and bad character (and don't argue about upbringing, his sister Hena had the same conditions but was able to pass the bonitation on the same day as Hron was not) and we can, if we decide to, use a bitch that would compensate.

I too wish Hamlet good home, after all, the quality of the home should not depend on the papers, but I cannot agree that he was supposed to obtain the papers just because of his lineage.

Just to update the topic: Hamlet (Wilk) was found stray in the woods in central Poland. He was in a poor condition and walked with a limp. Nobody knew how long he had lived on his own, neither anybody claimed him back :(
The person who spotted him managed to convince the dog to approach her. He kept visiting her home and eventually stayed with her and her family. The vet read his chip number and only then his identity was disovered. X-rays showed that a pellet was disturbing the movement of Hamlet's hip. (Seems somebody tried to shoot him). Funds were raised for his operation which eased his movement and probably relieved pain. Later he was castrated and now seems to be a happy and joyful dog.

The person who offered him a temporary home advertised him for adoption, but if no good home is found she declared she'd keep him. He's now about 6,5 years old and seems a really nice male.

Whatever happens to him in the future, lets hope that the second part of Hamlet's life will be happy!

Thank you for your Information Rona!
What a Story. I will really try hard to find someone for him in Germany, where he can live his second part of his life in peace and well cared.
I followed him since he was Young.
Does he Need a second dog for companionship? Is he shy or ok with strangers? What about secure high escaped prove fences? Does he Need them.
Would be easier for me to find a good home, if I could get answers to my question, so that I will find a real good home for him.

Christian

I'm afraid I don't know answers to your questions. At present he lives as a family dog, with two white Swiss sheperd females and a male WSS puppy and he doesn't seem to want to escape - he sleeps in a shack outside, but enters the house on demand. I suppose if he's taken his temperament after his double grandpa (Iran ZO), he must have a really nice personality. (BTW From what I've heard Iran is 15 now, he's still is interested in females and his human fan club has significantly increased over the last few years. 8))

Until Hamlet was castrated lots of people from several countries wanted to adopt him, but the number has dropped close to zero after the castration. Partly, becuase breeders with bigger vclak packs were afraid their dogs might not accept a castrated one, partly, because some hoped they might have registered him as stud and have "unique litters" ;-).

I passed the link to the person who is in charge of Hamlet and if she is interested in your kind offer I suppose she'll contact you. :)

After all he had gone through I belive Hamlet/Wilk appreciates a good friendly home and ...deserves it, like any dog does.

Poor dog :(

Hope he gets a happy life after all of this...

/ Mikael

I think interesting is the back door... unfortunately as far I know there were also "normal" people (not breders) interested in him. Nobody get Hamlet due to the lies told by Grzegorz. The problem is the new owner of Hamlet is a very big friend of the owner of Czambor - mendioned Grzegorz.... a person non grata by most (if not all) Polish breeders... and a big promotor of Czechoslovakian Shepherd who is ENVY about every Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. He throws mud at every typical Wolfdog (famous are his stories about genetic faults invented by him 8) )
Because of it first Grzegorz tried to show that Hamlet is a degenerate (because of the pedigree) - he is a ingorant when it comes to genetics. I'm almost sure he thinks that inbreed is a infectious disease (ok, I exaggerate a little ;-)). Later he convinced Beata to castrate Hamlet although we write about the future problems with acceptance of castrated dogs...

At the moment Rona is right - nobody is interested to adopt Hamlet because all people who wrote something are attacked by Grzegorz on a very bad way. Also the breeders do not want to help because theiy do not want to be involved in any addoption ruled by Grzegorz... No wonder: one of my dogs was "adopted" by him and his friend. The dog was put down without my knowledge.
The second adoption had better end but much worsed process. After it Grzegorz slandered all people and breeders who helped to save the live of Car and promoted himself as hero... :?

Haha, I've blocked the guy on fb so I don't see what role he has played in the Hamletgate. To be honest, I'm not even interested :rock_3.

IMO the person who is now in charge of Hamlet is an experienced dog owner, has her own judgement of the situation and on having listened to all advice and suggestions, will select the best home available :) I don't think the owner of Czambor has anything to say in this case :p

I totally agree

He never has ANYTHING (serious and sensible) to say but he says.. ;)
But as long as Grzegorz will humiliate every person who is interesed in adoption of Hamlet the dog will never find any new home. Because adopting Hamlet you will also "adopt" Grzegorz.... :evil: