'Just for fun' bonitation in Osieczna (PL)
 

Could somebody help me understand how the bonitation cards circulation operate?

Are the empty cards (and later, the bonitation documents) strictly registered and numbered by the national CSV clubs? Or, if the bonitation is organized in another country, can they be issued by the local national CSV clubs in their language and registered there?
What if there is no country CSV club? Where do the original bonitation cards of the bonitated dogs go in that case?

Is it enough, if the bonitation cards are signed only by the judge or do they need to be signed by the whole commission? Is it possible to issue copies in other languages or only in the original language?

I'm just curious because we are having a lively discussion on the Polish forum re the bonitatin formalities and opinion of people who organize bonitations in various countries would be appreciated.

I was wondering... What differense was Osiescna and Pozna bonitations? Only comitee? and Organization? Official club?

You mean Późna, where the yearly CSV meetings are organized by the Peron family? :)

Poznań [pron. 'poznan] is a big city in central Poland, Późna [pron. 'pu:zna]- a little village on the Polish/German border famous for hosting wolfdog.org ;)

There is no difference.
Both were made in Poland.
Both have the same meaning.

Rona asked inappropriate questions.

Should she ask what the way of the bonitation documents in a country where is the club.

You can not ask about the same thing in a country where there is no club, because there is nobody to answer.

Why only Osiecna bonitations is only X? but Pozna is correct?

My questrions are appropriate. I'm not interested in Osieczna or Późna bonitations- I've been to none and do not need/plan to bonitate my dog anywhere in the future.

I just wanted to learn how people, who organize bonitations in Germany, France. etc. deal with the bonitation documents to get a broader view on the topic discussed on the Polish forum.:p

In Poland we have no club.
So why ask someone who has it.
" in Germany, France. etc. "
There are breed clubs CSV.
I see no connection with the Polish.

I didn't address the question to you and it's not your problem why I want to learn something, is it? :rock_3

BTW I'd like to thank those who sent me e-mails with explanations. Now I understand more, even the reason why wilczakrew is so anxious. :lol::lol::lol:

If the bonitation card are not numered and registered by national CsV club ( Slovak or Czech) so that means I can do my own bonitation here, using the most close kennel club we have or even opening a breding club, as I only need to contact a breeder/judge of the breed for make it and make a comitee of owners/breeder/judges.
If it happen so, bonitation will be more a joke than it already is.
Best think it need to be oficialized by the Slovak or Czech club, registered there, recognized by then.

Osieczna jest prawie jak Zywiec... A jak wiesz "prawie robi wielka roznice".... :rock_3

Do you wonder? ;-) Or maybe you are another person who the organizers forgot to tell that they made this bonitation only "for fun"...?

There was not real bonitation comittee, the bonitation was not made according the Czech rules and also the codes do not have the valid form.... We can not publish results of something like this - because saing theat dogs in Osieczna passed a BONITATION would be cheating....

WilczaKrew told us to remove all results of this bonitation as it was not official and we will never get the bonitation codes. And it has been done. Also the 'X' will dissappear...

The differences between two polish bonitations is, that one is with official delegated judge from club of country of origin and the second one made a normaly judge, which was invited from organisators.

Thanks for the answer Margo and Pavel.

I think it is VERY important to tell when it is official Bonoitation or an unofficial Bonitation ! And in English please so that (we) ho travel very very long do not travel all they way for a Bonitation we can not use for breeding and put on Pedigree :(

Very best regards / Mikael

Ok. But remember if any FCI judge makes any test or show whit out FCI-memberclub (Most be registered in FCI-member club) invitation all results are X. And Judges can have big problems whit FCI.
Every real FCI judge have same FCI rules where they can work.

Bonitation in Osieczna
 

I... Where are the results? Bonitation is official thing so why you hide the results? Maybe because they are false? Maybe because the bonitation has been made without following the official regulations? Why the Czech CzW Club have no idea about it? What CMKU has to do with it? CMKU do not organize bonitations - they even do not care for them - it is internal issue of the CzW Club....

Ela, stop finnaly to tell all people fairy tales. Because even your "pack" is saying openly - the bonitation was unofficial, made only for fun and because of it they asked to remove the results from the Wolfdog.org database. Here you have one more time the words of Grzegorz, your friend who was also in the bonitation committee in Osieczna:

"As you [Margo] wrote some owners made a bonitation in Osieczna just for fun. Nobody is recognizeing it and it is no problem. It is also not a problem for the onwers. Nobody forse you to recognize the results as official. Nobody added the results to the database. Everybody can write on his own web page whatever he/she want [it is about Ela who is claiming that her female passed the Czech bonitation in Osieczna] and you have no influence on it [simply said if someone want to publish lies on his own web page I have no influence on it and Grzegorz is right - it is only the question of code of ethics of such breeder]. Czech and Slovaks will not start to cover with these dogs and will also not come with their stud dogs to cover these female. Also puppies from their litters will have not bonitation code written in the pedigrees."


Sorry but you are the last (and only person) who claims the bonitation was official and the codes were right. It it time to open your eyes...

For Ori: maybe is some missunderstanding, czech club has nothing to do with bonitation in Osieczna.......:shock:

Nebuď trapná Hano. Bonitace byla česká a zapsána do českých karet.

and in English :lol:
Do not be ridiculous, Hano. Bonitacion - evalution has been Czech and recorded to Czech cards.

Monika Soukupová

:lol: Sorry Monika but bonitation in Osieczna is like the bonitation of Mutaras - everybody heard that there was something but officialy it do not exist and there are no prooves that it took place... :lol:

PS. I didn't knew the rules for Czech bonitation changed this year. Or maybe it was a SUPER-Czech-bonitation made according different rules as all other Czech bonitations... :lol:

All bonitations, which are supported from Czech Club have a results on official Club pages (http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz). Osieczna is not there.

Funny. If everybody used czech bonitations cards (can copy e.g. from this server), then means, that bonitation is accept from Czech Club ? Its a joke ... :D

Do not be ridiculous, Margo, Anita and admin withou name:lol: The bonitacion - evaluation has been Czech recorded to Czech cards and cards was sent to Czech club.
Who are you Margo, Anita and admin without name? Fanatic polish girl, nothing more. ;-)

Sorry but its already broken the common sense rules. :lol:
Who are you Monika? A ARROGANT judge that THINK knows everything only because is able to gave notes at dogshows.
Tipical "old breeder which turn judge and stop in the time thinking that knows everything", in truth, nothing more than one delay for the dog breeding.
If FCI judges have actualy their judgements so discredited over the world, its because people like you.

A "judge" that needs to remember who are or how "nothing" is other people in every post for try to convince people that your theories are rights, sorry but it would be funny if not tragic. :lol:

Czech pages disclose no other bonitacion that not organized ... Italian, German, Polish, Belgian, Slovakian ..... it is bad argumnent. Information you can check at the administrators with name on http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz :lol:
Polish breeders do not need Bonitace! Bonitacion is nothing for breeding, there, like nowhere in Europe (except CZ and Slovakia) is a voluntary activity and I completely don ´t understand the reaction are present fanatics. Again jealousy that someone let Bonitations hold, too in Poland?

Good point, my neibousr also are jealous about mine Master's degree that I bought at the market.
In addition, I have learned everything that covered stiudies plan, I have passed my exams before friends from sandbox (with legal PhD) . Everytihing was write down on the examination sheet downloaded from the University site and then sent to University.
And you know what? They do not want to confirm this ... jealousy is universal not only in Breeding csv ...
;)

ps
all situations and names are not true, all this are just a fruits of my sick imagination.

But I even thing that sick imagination isn't only mine sickness ;)

And here goes the commercial that was forgotten earlier ;)
I'm so big compare to you ;P

Once again for Ori (not for some Soukupova etc...) :
Czech club has to do nothing with bonitation in Osieczna.

my reaction on Monika´s stupid answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif
For Ori: maybe is some missunderstanding, czech club has nothing to do with bonitation in Osieczna.......:shock:


Nebuď trapná Hano. Bonitace byla česká a zapsána do českých karet.

and in English :lol:
Do not be ridiculous, Hano. Bonitacion - evalution has been Czech and recorded to Czech cards.

Monika Soukupová
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...er_offline.gif http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/buttons/report.gif http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif is this:
(http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?op...huzi&Itemid=78):

Zneužití klubových formulářů

Dne 20. 8. 2009 přijala pozvání k posuzování bonitace v Polsku Ing. Monika Soukupová. Posuzování bylo nahlášeno na ČMKU, nebylo oznámeno KCHČSV v ČR.
Ing. Monika Soukupová použila formuláře bonitačních karet a typizačních karet svodu dorostu Klubu chovatelů československého vlčáka v ČR. Takovéto neoprávněné použití klubových formulářů je nepřípustné z následujících důvodů:
- nejednalo se o bonitaci pořádanou KCHČSV v ČR, ani o ní nebyl klub informován
- bonitace neproběhla podle řádů KCHČSV v ČR (rozhodčí nebyl delegován klubem, nebyl přítomen poradce chovu)
- použití formulářů českých klubových bonitačních a svodových karet, které jsou opatřeny hlavičkou „Klub chovatelů československého vlčáka", může kohokoliv uvést v omyl, že pes jemuž byla takováto svodová nebo bonitační karta vystavena absolvoval svod či bonitaci pořádanou KCHČSV v ČR, tedy oficiální chovatelskou akci pořádanou v souladu s řády KCHČSV v ČR, jenž je v případě bonitace podmínkou nutnou pro zařazení mezi chovné jedince.
Výbor navrhuje následující opatření:
Výbor pozastavuje delegace Ing. Moniky Soukupové při posuzování akcí pořádaných KCHČSV do řádné konference KCHČSV (06/2010), které bude neoprávněné použití klubových formulářů předáno k posouzení. Výbor konstatuje, že při akcích které nepořádá KCHČSV není možné používat klubové formuláře nesoucí označení KCHČSV, ale pouze formuláře pořadatele.

Shortly:
Czech club stopped delegations of this person for club actions, because she abused club documents for her privat action. On conference in 2010 will club act about it officially.

I mean, that its a very seriously decision. Its warning for CsW Clubs or groups, they always thinks, that when have any judge from CZ, then is their bonitation officially like in CZ. Its a basic mistake !!! But soem peopla, like Ing. Soukupova or J. Jedlicka just many years trying looks like official delegates of CZ Club (especially in Italy). So be carefully !!!

The entire registration committee is absurd, nonsensical and confusing, and me personally asked nobody from CLUB oficilaly! After sending the results from Osiezcna I received this e -mail only:

Helena Hubáčková wrote:

Thank you very much for posting the results - such data on dogs are always an asset, and can certainly be integrated into the database.
The site KCHČSV CR but can not publish the results - this Bonitations not organized KCHČSV CR (the club website, or do not disclose the results of other Bonitations - Slovak, German or other - is not even technically realistic). But I think that the space for publication of the results should be such as ww.wilczaki/eu (should I even consider that the Admin directly Ela W.).
Best regards,
Helena Hubáčková

Breeding Club cards are used by Judges always! Others are available and are used as a "draft for the production of foreign language.
In Osiezcne were created by the Polish organizer, too, they have the owners, I took Czech b.c. to CR and sent them to CLUB.
The using of cards isn´t prohibited in any club´s rules NEVER a Judges using them always! If club has problem now and wants to make some rules, I will delete the name of KCHČSV simply...

I am responsible only ČMKU, NO CLUB! ON CMKU we must pass examinations and CMKU delegates Me, NO club!
The DELEGATION can PROPOSES Club, ONLY!
THE CLUB stopped my DELEGATION ??... is ridiculous ... to which specific ACTION stopped MY delegation?? Say exactlly name of Club action, please!

I accepted the delegations, only and made judgement of dogs as for 100x or 1 000x??? Nothing special happend..... is it really sad, fanatismus some persons, this don ´t has nothing to do with dogs...this is politics and bad politics, only.

Yes, this case will be continue, but not here!

Monika Soukupová

Dont lie again Monika. Please dont misuse the situation, when peple dont understand czech. The exact trenslation of text about you delegation is :

"Board stopt delegation of Ing. Monika Soukupova by valuation of aktions, they are organisate by KCHCSV ..."
"Výbor pozastavuje delegace Ing. Moniky Soukupové při posuzování akcí pořádaných KCHČSV..."

On this actions delegate judge not CMKU, but Club. Monika, you are big demagogue and like to manipulate with people.

Our last italian bonitace is in the list :
http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz/in...ace&Itemid=108

Yes, it was official bonitation organisated under czech club. Members of bonitation comission was: Jana Tomeskova (judge of czech club), Dana Matusincova (leader of czech breeding) and Ivana Stritezska (member of breedcomission).

Italian bonitacion are organized under the Italian club C.C.L.C and ENCI 2 x per year.
The aforementioned 1 bonitations organized non - member of C.C.L.C. and for what?? ANY bonitacion is necessary for breeding in Italy and in all Europe (except Czech and Slovak) so I don ´t understand still, where is some problem? Only some people need to have some feeling
I am correct and others are wrong....
Can you imagine Italian Bonitations organized non-member of KCHČSV, member of C.C.L.C. for example in Czech in Prague? Yes, like "circus" certainly has, and certainly will in future use: 0)) I doubt that the results KCHCSV will accept as it no accepted the Italian club.
This is called interference in foreign affairs.
Similarly, the Czech club should not interfere in the settlement of Polish breeders !

Come on Don Kichot, my little brave soldier, nobody will ever stop you !!
They all are wrong!!

I dont speak about official italian bonitation, but about this one :
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/164.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/152.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/136.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/119.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/102.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/58.html

Today at the Czech Club website published an apology Monika Soukupova.
Bonitace in Osiezcna (PL) was made correctly and according to all rules.
Point 6. ( Kaufmanová informed sortly) is canceled!
Club website:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/

Best greetings to all ordinary people who would like to Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and not politics and promote only their personal interests and views....

Monika

Fine, in next dogshow I will call some FCI judges for we make official czech bonitations here also. :)

I can copy here only the same like I wrote to my first topics. Czech club has nothing with bonitation in Osieczna. We did not organized it.
I will not change something on my topic.

Hi, would it be possible to translate the "apology" and the rest?
Especially point 6.

Thanks in advance

VS
So has the Czech Club finally formally accepted the bonitation or not? Does anybody know what the truth is? Maybe the President of the Club should write what the official standing of the Czech Club is and this would END this absurd dispute? :rock_3

His official answer is on czech version, I try ask him about translating here.

Nebulosa, nobody sais that bonitacion was under Czech Club! But according to Czech rules, yes - judgement of exterier, measurement, character test, shooting. The results are accepted Czech Club like others strange bonitacion.... Italien, Belgian, German, France for example - only info more about dogs from countries where the breeders do not need it for breeding! Everybody can be organizators bonitacion and they DON´T NEED REQUEST FOR PERMISSION CZECH CLUB!

Read and translate well Mr. Skoupý. http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...70959&langid=1

BUt All cards from Osiezna Club received and has them!

Why you have problem with this, still?? Because Margo not was organizator?
The people made it optionally, they wanted to have some info more about their dogs! They didn ´t need this!
Why you must to have problem with everything??
Your dogs has some bonitacion official or unofficial?? NO? And you breed with them? :lol:

I made a lot of bonitacion and my the signature is on many bonitacion cards official Czech and unofficail too.

Reset and cancel them from wolfdog. org database, please. Thanks.

Monika

Nebulosa - what Monika is trying to explain to you: you do not need ANY rules.. :lol: Invite your friend who is a FCI judge for a grill party or a beer and make a bonitation. Make some measurements, shoot two times, and make some kind of character test... And the Czech Club will accpept it... If you will invite two other friends to the comittee it will be much more professional than the bonitation in Osieczna... :lol:


Sorry Monika but in this case the bonitations are no more needed in this breed because they are for NOTHING. If anyone can make ANY kind of bonitation according ANY rules and it will be accepted as VALID bonitation than why ANY club should invite you or any of the club judges? They don't need you... :lol: They can use any judge and make the bonitation according their own rules - prepare their own cards, and own regulation. Nobody must accept it, everybody can make measurements.... :lol:

Sorry but you are starting again a new PARODY inside this breed... After registration of pseudo-wolfdogs and pseudo-club now you promoting pseudo-bonitation.... :lol:

Sorry but it is a very strange that an FCI judge have no idea what is a RULE. If you judge during a FCI dog show the results are accepted. If you make a dog show at you home you can even give a "World Winner" title to all dogs of your friends - but the titles EVEN GIVEN BY A OFFICIAL FCI JUDGE are worth NOTHING in this case.

Even child would get the difference...

I hope Hanka will do this. Anyway someone is lying....

Grzesiek - the person who say that he was counting the inxedes (so it is visible he was in the bonitation comittee - anyway a person who not only took part in the bonitation but is good informed wrote on the Polish version:

Translation:
"The card in Osieczna were in Czech language. I asked only to write me the result also on my own [Polish] card as a copy. It was only because I wanted to understand what is written there".

So the person who TOOK part and also was person who organized it and helped the judge get a CZECH card.

Also the Czech versions were send by Ela, as far I understood it...

At the same time Monika told to the club the cards were in Polish language...

MATRIX :lol:

The bonitacion in Osiezna is on same level for Czech Club, like bonitacion in Pózno, for example for better understanding.

I not understand well Margo ´s " brainwashing " but this is normal for me.

Bonitacion in Osiezna was made by Czech Judge and keep Czech rules.

Margo is last person, who can to say if the bonitacion valid or not.

Strangres bonitacion for Czech club not are valid for memebers of Czech Club, only. The member of Czech Club can pass bonitacion in Osiezna :0) Pózno or Serramazzoni but this bonitacion isn´ t enough for czech breeding!
Czech owner must to pass for breeding Czech KCHCSV bonitacion, only!


And strangers NOT NEED this FOR BREEDING! This acction is OPTIONAL!
You go with your dogs on bonitacion when you want, only and when you think, he can pass well it.... And you breed CSWs without bonitacion, too!

SO what happened Margo, somebody took the toys?

I know the rules and my rights very well. ;-)

Who goes those rules you only :? .. you have no right to say that bonitacion are valid and the dog is good stud dog, or not!
Everyone can read, knows where the bonitacion done and by whom. There are also videos. Just make a valid entry, and without comment, if you want to inform correctly.
Bonitace can be never exactly the same. The conditions are different, Judge, rules and helper .. implementation. Slovak temperament test is another test ... Italy is different too....But this is not problem, for me surely.
Please let to say the Judge his opinion.
Everyone can read and knows where and by whom was the bonitacion done this is same like different HD results!

We can read and nobody need your explanation! Thanks!

Monika

I also dont say that the bonitation was under Czech club, but the fakt that "if" it was accepted as official by them, its the question.
For long time in some countries, breeders, clubs and owners had pay a lot for bring judges from Czech or Slovakia for judge a bonitation and have its code as official, and now we all know its not needed anymore, so I can make my own bonitation here also and it will be much valuated as the Czech one.

Whats difference will make if it was Margo or Santa Claus?
If both follow the rules we all wait its really no problem, but when we have a bonitation in different way, with common FCI judge and without club or breed comission, so the things start to change and of course I will start to show more interess, as I want to have bonitated dogs here.
We all imagined that the bonitation need to follow some specific rules and be accepted before been done by the club for be considerated official and published as it, in this case we would have some costs for bring a recognized and accepted judge by the club, and make everything according Czech or Slovakian rules, as they wish, now we discouvered that its not needed anymore, so...

I really have problems with nothing, principally in when we talk about rules as I follow "all rules of our club" and much more than it :p
By the rules of our kennel club we also dont need HD or ED results, we only need a pedigree female and mate it with other pedigree male of the same breed. Do you think it that right to do? :lol:
I dont make my dogs pass exams only because the clubs will or because rules, I do it because I want select the breed and of course like all bredders I want show my work for the breed lovers.
But I wondered...
I ever found bonitation simply a bright idea when it has been done properly, but seems that now it turns only in ego war for show "my dog have P1 your not" even if this P1 is a lie :lol:
Then, normaly breeders try to respect the origin countries will, and if you all do bonitation, so its because its needed and all others countries will try to do it also, so its normal that I want my dogs bonitated like all Czech or Slovakian dogs.
Even, someone already dared to ask why my dogs have no bonitations, so for avoid the common bad talk wich exist in all breeding community, I also want to make official bonitation, recognized by at least one of the orign countries. :p
That's why I wonder about this topic.

Margo, my english is not so perfect for correct translating from czech to english.
I think is stupid to give on english forum some link of czech text without translating, if somebody wants to tell something to english speaking people......

Google translator is not very good but as far as I did understand was the excuse for the step to do this:
""Board stopt delegation of Ing. Monika Soukupova by valuation of aktions, they are organisate by KCHCSV ..."
"Výbor pozastavuje delegace Ing. Moniky Soukupové při posuzování akcí pořádaných KCHČSV..."
Because the step was taken thinking that official Czech Club forms were used for a not official Polish bonitation. After the Club realised that the forms weren´t given to the owners of the dog but only used privately by the judge there was no reason for this step any longer.

This doesn´t change anything for the discussion about this bonitation itself and doesn´t say anything about it´s value.

Was this right?

Ina

Guys, it seems to me that Monika DOES NOT UNDERSTAND the nature of your concerns.
Maybe I'll try to put it clearly so that she and all who got lost in all the arguments could follow:

1. We all know that in the countries of origin bonitation is a breeding requirement, so all dogs that go into breeding MUST have it.

2. In many other coutries bonitation is not required for breeding. (e.g. Poland) This means that in such countries breeders do not HAVE TO bonitate their dogs, but MAY if the wish.

3. Bonitations can be organized anywhere: Roudnice, Jevisovice, Późna, Osieczna, etc. etc. provided the organizors have registered the event in the Czech or Slovak Club and the club delegated bonitation commission - three people with specific rights granted by the Club. This means that place does not matter, only the formalities.

4. This also means that the comission brings oficial boniation cards, stamps, etc. etc with them and the board have rights to sign the pedigrees of the dogs and the results are published in the official Club documents.

4. In that case, if the requirements and formalities are met, any Czech or Slovakian wolfdog can be taken by his/her owner to any of these registered bonitations (even if the boniation takes place in Kozia Wólka or on the Moon), the dog can be oficially bonitated, its code is put into his pedigree document and recognized by the breeding commission in the country he comes from, i.e. the Czech Republic or Slovakia.

5. In Późna I saw Czech and and Slovakian wolfdogs being bonitated and I heard their codes appreard in the official Club documents/webpage.

Now, my question to Monika and others is: if any Czech or Slovakian wolfdog took part in the boniatation in Osieczna would it be possible to put his code into his/her pedigree and would it be recognized by the Czech or Slovakian breeding commission?

To me this is the true validation of the bonitation, otherwise - it's a social event and I see not reason why anybody should insist on calling it boniation or making so much fuss around it as it has been done here.

Yes Ina, this sentence was about czech club forms used for not czech club bonitation. You are right.

I think Hana understand Czech very well and she understand perfectly what si writen there!
all text from " Alexa " Mr. Skoupý: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...70959&langid=1

some important part:
KCHČSV v ČR bere na vědomí zadané bonitační kódy (kopie bonitačních karet byly českému klubu předány) jako kteroukoliv jinou informaci z bonitace v zahraničí (tzn. veškeré dříve pořádané bonitace v zahraničí, které nepořádal KCHČSV v ČR, což byla pouze bonitace v italské Pavii 2008 ).
Kdokoliv má právo uspořádat bonitaci bez toho, aniž by se na to ptal českého nebo slovenského klubu. Pokud by na takovou bonitaci však jel např. český majitel se svým psem, nebude mu tato bonitace uznána pro chovnost v ČR, pokud nebyla přímo českým klubem pořádána (což je tento případ). KCHČSV uznává pro zařazení mezi chovné jedince v ČR u psů v majetku osob žijících v ČR pouze bonitace pořádané českým klubem.

English:

KCHČSV in CR notes entered bonitacion code (copy Breeding cards (from Osiezna) were sent to the Bohemian Club) as any other information from the abroad bonitacion (ie any previous bonitacion held abroad no organized KCHČSV in the CR, which was only in Pavia, Italy 2008 ).

Everyone has the right to organize Bonitation, without being asked to Czech or Slovak Club. If would go on Bonitation eg. Czech owner with his dog, he shall not be recognized for the breeding in the CR, if not directly organized by the Czech club (which is the case). KCHČSV recognized for the Czech breeding and Czech owners living in CZ with dogs, only the bonitacion organized by the Czech club!

Why is so difficult understand???
All foreign bonitacion are for Czech Club on same level (except bonitacion in Pavia - Italy - this could pass Czech owners living in CZ ) and isn ´t important if is Judge: Bognarová, Šimáčková, Jedlička, Dóra, Soukupová or Nesvadba (Swizerland)....or somebody else!

" Exception " has Slovakian bonitacion in Slovak, only - for Czech owners.
They can pass exterier and all measurement on Slovakia BUT for character test must to go to CR! Slovakien character test no accepted Czech Club!


Is so difficult accept this wiew?

...and if we are in bonitacion...why the some italy dogs has in database - only " X " instead bonitacion code? Because admin wants?? He says this bonitacion is no right for me? It is really stupid opinion. Is always better to have italy or slovak or swiss bonitacion than - nothing!

Judgement of exterier is same, measurement is same and character test? Never can be same. Some coutries has problem to lern " attact " to person and they have problems with this part of bonitacion. Train dog never. For me isn ´t problem when Clubs modificate - transfer character test. Any bureacracy belonging to the breeding of dogs! And Nobody has a patent on the reason.
Test must be properly constructed so Judge could to make correct judgement of impulses (the referee excitement ) and depresion. So he could to say if the dog is melancholic, choleric, sanguine or flegmatic - general.

Sorry for my English.

Monika

As far as I remember was the question after what rules this bonitation was made and who were the members of the comission not if anybody could make one anywhere in the world.

Ina

Yes, I understand czech of course, but maybe you can´t read what I wrote.....

You know the problem with Monika: she has HUGE problems to answer SIMPLY questions... :D On the polish version I asked her three times about the rules for the bonitation in Osieczna and people who were in the breeding comittee... NO ANSWER...

Typical - she never answer any problematic questions... ;)

What she is promoting at the moment is:
if you have a friend who is FCI judge for the group 1. just invite him/her for a beer and ask to sing some papers. Ask him to measure the dog (don't worry if the measurements will be wrong - nobody care for it), make some character test (it must be not a proffesional one). You do not need any official cards - prepare you own... Write ANYTHING on the papers and remember - you can write the best codes you want.... You can also add some centimetres of height to have the code "better looking"... :D And remember - all dogs can get perfect notes. Do not care for the faults...

And according the the FCI judge, Monika Soukupova, such bonitation will be valid... I know for everybody who has any idea about the goal of bonitation this what suggest Monika is simply TRASH. But for her, JUDGE, BREEDER, CZW EXPERT it is valid, great and professinal.... :lol:

For me such lack of knowledge in UNIMAGINABLE for a (so called) experienced breeder and FCI JUDGE! What I see here is PURE EMBARRASSMENT.

1. LIE:
Do not compare Osieczna with bonitation in Pozna, France or Italy. Because Osieczna was made according not existing rules (NOT CZECH). The other were made STRICTLY keeping to slovakian or czech rules.

2. LIE:
Bonitation in Osieczna do not keep to the Czech rules. You, FCI and CLUB JUDGE, should know that the regulation DO NOT SAY that the bonitation is "something what happend when dog is measured, character is checked and someone is shooting". NO!!! So before you will start to write us another fairy-tales READ FINALLY THE REGULATION OF YOUR OWN CLUB!:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?vi...tent&Itemid=75

*** "Bonitace jsou pořádány v souladu s ročním plánem chovatelských akcí klubu a jejich termín musí být uveden v oběžníku klubu. Místo a datum konání bonitace navrhuje pobočka a schvaluje je výbor chovatelského klubu."
Translation: Bonitation must be included in the year-long plan and the places must be listed in the club bulletin. Place and date is suggested by the branch of the club and approved by the board of the club.

NOBODY knew about the bonitation in Osieczna. It was not listed - nor on the web pages neither in the club newpaper.
CONCLUSION: The bonitation was not made by the Czech Club.

*** "Bonitační komise je nejméně tří členná. Tvoří ji: posuzovatel pro exteriér, poradce chovu a vedoucí bonitace."
Translation: bonitation comittee is made up at last of three people. It is made by: judge for exterier, breeding comittee member and person leading the bonitation.

In the bonitation in Osieczna was ONLY YOU. Where (who) was the breeding comittee member? Who was the person leading the bonitation. On the cards there are only your signs.
CONCLUSION: There was no VALID bonitation comittee.

*** During the club conference which took place on 14.6.2008 since 2009 the bvonitation code MUST include the indexes.

If you want to make bonitations you should READ and KNOW the regulations because NON of the bonitation you made abroad have it. Also the bonitation codes from Osieczna are not valid according the Czech rules...

CONCLUSION: There was no VALID bonitation codes.



DO YOU REALLY WANT TO CINVINCE ANYONE THAT THE BONITATION IN OSIECZNA WAS ACCORDING THE CZECH RULES? DO YOU REALLY WANT STILL TO DELUDE AS. Do you think anyone will believe you?!?!




There is more dear FCI judge.... The results of the bonitation in Osieczna were written bonitation cards singed with "Klub Hodowcow Czechoslowackiego Wilczaka" (translation: Club of the breeders of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog). WE DO NOT HAVE ANY FCI CLUB for CzW in Poland. So the club listed there is for 100% NON FCI. You, dear FCI judge, you should know IT IS VORBIDDEN for FCI judges to judge during NON FCI meeetings... The cards are FAKE - singed by NON-FCI (or non-existing) CLUB!!!

If the club listed there is real - could you be also so nice to give us the names of the people who made this FAKE club so we could hold them responsible for it?

I know - and I understand their possition in 100%!!!! They were simply affraid that owners of all the untypical, shy, too small dogs will travel abroad and take part in such PSEUDO-bonitation which you promote...

I understand that they don't want accept the results of Italian male and female who are EXTREMLY SHY but on the PSEUDO-bonitations made by you or with you the dogs get THE PERFECT character codes.

I understand that they don't want accept the results of dog which you measured 65cm, and who is in the reality 61-62 cm height...

Do you wonder that the Czech club do not want to accept other bonitation when there are more and more examples where a dog who will be in Czech Republic disqualified (P14) get by you or by your friends PERFECT bonitation code...

The same is with Wolfdog - in the database are more results 'recognized' - all the bonitations must fulfill are: they must be done according the valid bonitation regulations (Czech or Slovakian). Because of it the bonitation in Germany, Lithuania, Poland, France, Holland and some in Italy are considered as valid....

Pseudo-party-bonitation made according non-existing regulations are considered as "bonitation for fun" and are not listed...

I see Monika you to no get the point - you to not understand the problem here...

Of course we all do not need the bonitations. We can breed WTHOUT THEM.
Of course we can make our own fake bonitation - we can meet us all on dog shows, grill parties or any other meetings and make some pseudo-bonitation written on our private bonitation cards.
You are RIGHT - WE CAN DO THIS. Ela can do it in Poland, people can do this in Germany, Holland, France, Italy, Finnland. In any country. And the Czech and Slovakian Club can not forbid people to do this. Czech and Slovakian Club do not have influence on it.

BUT IT IS NOT THE TOPIC HERE!!!

CzW owners from other countries do not want any FAKE bonitations!!!! If the Dutch and French clubs invite you they EXPECT that you will make a bonitation STRICTLY according VALID Czech regulations. They pay you for judgment and for the trip and expect PROFFESIONAL WORK. Not a parody "because they don't need it" but a REAL BONITATION looking exactly the same as the bonitations in Czech Republic.

The same was with Osieczna - the people there were thinking it will be CZECH bonitation made according CZECH rules, on the CZECH cards and that they will get CZECH bonitation codes.
And not FAKE bonitation made by a FAKE club, with FAKE codes written on a FAKE bonitation card.


It is so hard to understand the CzW owners do not want to have FAKE bonitations but they really want to do MORE than just the basic requirements in their countries.
And ESPECIALLY YOU, should help them. And not to try to convince them to make FAKE bonitation instead of bonitations made according valid regulations...


It is exactly the problem with Osieczna and bonitation in Poland. Please stop to tell some fairy-tales about the competition and rivals... That is (another) lie - I do not have any problems with people who want to organize bonitations in Poland. On the contrary - several breeders plan to make more bonitations in Poland this year and I help them as much I can. It is also in my interest to provide my puppy owners the possibility to make bonitation not only in Pozna but several times in a year - in different places in Poland (not only on the German border).
But I would like that they can pass REAL bonitation - not FAKE with FAKE codes but normal one: with real proffesional bonitation comittee, with real codes. On real cards.
All breeders who plan it want to do their job PROFESSIONALLY: they want to fullfil all reqirements. The bonitation in Osieczna was an exeption - and they KNEW they make it against the rules. But for them it was not important - important was to get good codes - in many cases MUCH better that they would get during a REAL bonitation... And you know what: the whole s'fight' was worth doing because the "osieczna team" was forced to gave up the organization of FAKE bonitations (like the one in 2009) and this year they prepare a REAL Czech bonitation which will be listed on Wolfdog when we will get the exact date.
No - nobody in Poland is against competition. We do not fight with people "thinking differently". Till they not start to LIE, to CHEAT and to DECEIVE...

I hope it is clear to you.

I know ;). But as a vet I have more than 20 years of experience in getting answers to my questions out of confused people. You just have to ask again and again and again, they will answer or they will disappear:twisted: Till now I only was unsuccessfull once, with a mentally insane person.

So don´t give up, maybe one day we will have the shocking experience to get a direct answer to our questions.

Ina

I will respond to your graphomania attack, Margo is not necessary and everyone know you. (Me, too of course sweet Ina:) )

You're a great manipulator and Internet brawler.
The German, Polish, Belgian, Italian, Swiss, French, etc. bonitacion was called " all Czech and Slovak Commission?? Never!!
Except in Pávia 2008
This is your great delusion! And all oragnizators of abroad bonitations knows it.
Breeding Commission has meaning only in terms of controlled breeding in the CR and SR. Breeding committee member can become anyone. Not have to study its function, no school, no need to sit the exam! Accountability does not exist!
The situation in Poland I know :(
On abroad bonitacion is always invited Judge, only!!

And Your problems are for me ridiculous. Sit and write and write, dear Margo. I bealive, somebody will listen it... this is your life, very sad.:(
You and wolfdog. org isn ´t any official institution! You are not FCI and you not respect FCI or CMKU etc!...., You can´t to say who is Judge or not, that dog is a stud dog, who is the breeder FCI of CSWs or not. You trying only manipulate dates here! This is all.
For me this chapter closed. Dogs bonitation I reviewed 100x maybe 1 000 x however you try to challenge it, Margo, who has dogs from me and my person made bonitacion of them.

But your truth is always right, of course :lol:

Monika

Well sorry, the German ones normally have, usuallly there is the judge, mostly the Slovakian breeding advisor and the responsible person of the German Club. The rules follow the Slovakian procedure. Slovakian judges don´t make bonitations when the rules aren´t followed.

And still no answer to this very simple question, maybe it was too difficult. Who made the rules? Who were the responsible persons beside you??
I am only interested in that one Polish Bonitation, you must remember, you have been there, it can´t be that difficult.

Ina

I am absolutly sure, that everything was said here!
Read well and agian.
....and about which German bonitacion you are speaking.. " MOSTLY " ??
Ina stop these speculation!

Monika

Who was in the comission and what rules did the bonitation follow??

Come on it can´t be that difficult to answer two questions!

I told you once, I will repeat it again: PLEASE READ THE REGULATIONS OF YOUR OWN CLUB!!
After you will finally read it please show me the place where it is written that the bonitation comittee MUST be made only by REAL CZECHS - "PUREBREED" (for generation of course) Czech people... And it is not valid in the case when member of the breeding comittee is foreigner.... :lol:

Do you think, that you will get any answer. Am very sceptic in this sense ... :D

Thanks :) I was totally lost :lol:

And yes I agree, official Bonitation has a 100% value, social events not !!!

Very best regards / Mikael

Pavel, let me repeat what I said in another thread: a lack of answer is also an answer! Surpisingly - a very self-destructive kind of answer! ;-)

I have no doubt that everyone here is contributing "the same punching" and with dogs ... this debate has nothing to do, it's a witch hunt!
This is not questioning silly and stupid question answer!

Everything has been said! Who does not respect the FCI is Wolfdog. org! Here is handled with the data, opinions, decisions, lists are made only by the administrator at will not allow, whichever OFFICIAL canine organization.
This is the boulevard and he acts!
Have fun Rona, Pavel, sweet Ina ... : 0)

Witch Soukupova : :lol:

You have been very right and this is an extremely sad case.

Ina

Sorry for the offtopic (?) but when reading some of the threads on this forum (just like the forums of other breeds), one thought obssesively comes to my mind...

"A dog is a reflection of his master" :roll:

:shock::shock::shock: Why do you call two simple questions a "witch hunting"? Are they really so hard to answer? :lol:

This is a very interesting point though in my opinion slightly too general! Could you please be a bit more specific? What exactly did you have in mind?

I'm afraid I don't follow your path of reasoning. We all know wolfdog.org is a private project, so the owners decide what shape it has and what values are promoted here. In most of your posts you criticize it, but I think it's still very democratic, that even people who do not share those values and do not like the shape are able to write here and present their views, just as you and many others do. Open discussion is always better than gossiping behind people's backs, isn't it? ;-)

I suppose there are some breeders who may be competing with you and have bad intentions, want to destroy your reputation, etc. but there are also many people on this forum who have nothing against you personally, will never compete with you as a breeder or expert and assess without prejudice what you, (and Margo, Ina and others) write here. Why don't give them a chance to understand your standing and answer the questions which have been asked? Surely you cannot expect everybody to agree with your views, but it doesn't mean that people hate you or want to 'witch hunt' you. It only means that they have different opinions on something.:)

Thank you. I don't know about the others, but I will.:lol: Gosh, you're good at raising suspence, Monika :klatsch. You should start writing detective stories! Now I'm dying to learn the answers to the questions :p ... where is the last page?;-):lol: