Champions, world champions, super champions
 

Again only polemic and no facts at all - i could expect it from such "moderator"

But i can understand you , "Nebulosa" :

Tell FACTS , if you want to make critics - and the same for you "wolfin".

It seems very strongly to me , that you both only feel envy for your own dogs are not World Champions , or from litter of such Champion.

Bye- bye

:lol::lol::lol: Harmonia Eden Severu IS a World Champion!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Rona, the only thing they are trying is to mistake the true intentions of this post. Do you not understand?

you joke :) not CH make interesing litters or interesing blood, only genetic. You are like and others ( not all, thanks God) blidnes and see only this CH.
I not envy for this litter or this WW who have father. He is nice dog, not exelent like and alls wolfdogs, but nice. If I wish have this same pedigree I can mate with this same male, but I wan't this. Why? I think this understand only good breeder not people who have first dog in his live or breeder who make one litter with this breeding plan " mas be ch, ch, ch and mas be nice ch".
Rona, not only WW champion but and BALT CH, PL-CZ-LT-LV-EE, club Ch, but this is nothing only titels :)

I know;-) and you know well what I think of show titles 8). I just found it really humorous, that he was blaming you for envy of WW title :lol::lol::lol:

aha and I ;-)

I think you misunderstood me ...

I try to explain that in a pedigree has many champions there is no guarantee that champions go, there are more possibilities, but there is no guarantee.

Sometimes two mediocre pieces comes a genetic mutation or a hybrid specimen (by genetic mutation) and is an excellent example.

At times a mixture of blood and chromosomes and gives the perfect mix of mediocre duplicate born a perfect copy.

Do not believe?

This is de mother nature and de Evolution Theory...

the breeding of a champion not only depends on the titles of his predecessors, but it also depends on items such as embryonic cell lineages, the quality of cell division, chromosomes, and in turn this depends on the laws of simple inheritance , of the genes and alleles, complete or incomplete dominance, the possibility of multiple alleles, gene mimics, and therefore there must be borne in mind that this may cause masking of characters in other generations later come to light ...

Big problems with people who are not decently, telling lies and have no behaviour.
 

Exactly, dear "jasmine" ! Just this i have also told before ...
And a World Champion "Harmonia Eden severu " with bonitation code

A62.5 F2 K1 Oc R1 P3

F2 = long ears

K1 = too long tail

Oc =irritable - uncourages

and P 3 NOT a P1 in bonitation- code , with two grandparents with HD- result "C" (!) can without any doubt not be compared with Amore Mio!

Greetings from Germany

I very well understand. I write for Nebulosa and wolfin.

Hey ! It is high time to finish this "nice" topic !
Uli, Daniela.....don't come down theire level of communication...............no worth...
A lot of people use the forum just dropping shits and hurt many of us.
Our results must be enough evidences that we do our hobby in the right way!


Edit

That is a very good comments Edit

As they say in Spain ... "learning by walking"

Each display their results and that alone is what counts. The words, insults, threats and comments absolutely no good at all.

Facts are what count at the world championships and breeding.

Why is it that most of the time, who talk the least results have???

but please, the discussion is completed on the breeding, NO DISCUSSION ON IRREGULARITIES OF THIS "Breeder"; "Lupus Ibericus" because they are known to be good for everybody PLC

There is a phrase that I said a well known breeder of Wire Fox Terrier Spain and my friend Alberto Velasco from affix FCI "CHELINES"

"A breeder of champions can not be gauged by its current champion, but by the number of champions who owns his kennel in time"

great phrase.

Hmm, am I wrong or it really seems from some posts that being a champion for a dog is something bad? :lol: Breeders should breed for health, great character and YES, beauty. Because the dog that fits the standart most is the most beautiful, isn't it? :lol:

Worl Winner 2006 is Harmonia Eden severu and Issar Kollarov dvor ( both have SLOVAK bonitation)
World Winner 2009 is Amore Mio Srdervac and Wickey Crying wolf (both have czech bonitation)
and ...
both dog have this tittel and You not change this.
about P3. Why dog with 53 % legs have P1, when mas be 55%? this is very strange like and others P1 who have dogs in CZ. but this is old problem, and about this speak in others thema.
BUT PEOPLE we speak about puppy healt not about Ch or others? Why not speak about this and not think who mas make for better live this puppy?

Silvester, I don't want to take sides in this conflict, I don't understand what's going on here and where the problem is, but your posts are really funny!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Are you aware that your friend Carlos, selected Harmonia, the 'ugly' female WW 2006 with too long ears, too long tail, uncourages and irritable to be the mother of the male he bought from Daiva? :p:lol:
I don't know the dog, but I know the parents and belive me, they are great! Both Cheitan and Harmonia have something, that for me (a non-breeder;-)) is most important in a dog: fantastic characters and working drive. 8) Plus this 'something', sometimes called "charisma", of which you can say nothing if you haven't seen them interacting with humans and other dogs...

Please, think before you write your next post, unless you want to give us more entertainment... and further ridicule Carlos' kennel :) He does not deserve allies like you. :p

Rona, thanks :)
Jasmine, Daniela, and others, ALL dogs is nice, and the best for his owner. And IDEAL dog not exist, all have faults.
and in breeding moore imporant is not Ch titles but others things, or would You think otherwise?

Champions, world champions, super champions
 

Exactly, dear "jasmine" ! Just this i have also told before ...
And a World Champion "Harmonia Eden severu " with bonitation code

A62.5 F2 K1 Oc R1 P3

F2 = long ears

K1 = too long tail

Oc =irritable - uncourages

and P 3 NOT a P1 in bonitation- code , with two grandparents with HD- result "C" (!) can without any doubt not be compared with Amore Mio!

Greetings from Germany

yes this is same pedigree like have my Harmonia- Reolup blood, this same dogs with HD C are and in "Z" L. I. pedigree. But You I think know this too.

applause. This is the best direcction of a good breeder in my opinion :p

YESSSS!!!!! is this items very very "important"

People know that some behavioral characters are transmitted genetically? because that is also very important.

A dog can be beautiful but if a dog is fearful in the ring ....

And in this race is very important this detail

If you will quote someone quote something that this person had write, not what you wanted they to said.
I NEVER wrote what you quote in my name, so , please in next post put the correct name of who write it or I will change for your own name.

Harmonia Eden Severu is world champion, I really dont care for dogshows as I know very well how it works, maybe this year if I have patience enough I will go again in few for expent my time talking with friends.

You talkabout FACTS, seems you're completly unable to even look and understand the pedigree of your own dog, what a shame;

Let me quote what I said and you wanted facts

Aragorn Potomok vlkov - HD: C, he is the father of Askia, and he is in the pedigree of your dog.
Lorenz Farouk Arimminum - HD B - He is father of Bluebell wich is mother of Emba
Ciara von wasterwalderberg - HD B, She is the mother of Bluebell, which is mother of Emba

But let me show you something that can be a shock for someone who only accept the existance of A dogs, the full brother of Bluebell, Baschan, is D, as some of her brothers have C results.

So, I think its time to wake up and at least try to understand what is selection, and that in dog breed does not exist perfect dog, sorry to say, but if you even tough that the line of your dog was the "most healty and clean of the breed" you were mistaken, its a line which need a lot of selection, as 99% of whole breed, and its a very important info if you even think about breed with your "perfect dog", open the eyes and see the truth can hurt, but its needed for the breed selection.

When I know the problems of my dogs, I know how to select them, and so, how to improve then.

Why? Because I said perfect dog and perfect litter does not exist? You really dont agree with that?
If you tough Amore Mio is a perfect dog, sorry, I only agree that he is a nice and tipical dog as every wolfdog should be, but that also need to be used with care for you be able to pass away the nice work you've done, or you will simply lost it.

I agree, but who told you that dogshows select really beauty looking at the standard?
What I most see are dogshows selecting by names, politicage and so on, well its not different with the breed and I could proof it.
For some judge a CzW looking like GSD are beauty, so they wins, is that right now? Maybe is also right ugly dogs winning because they have a well known handler?
Unhapply, only a small ammount of Judges get out of the statistic of "judging without have idea about the dog or the breed".

No, but you're talking about titles and beauty. Amore Mio is an active, healthy dog, friendly to people and it is most important. His exterior is only a bonus.

Yes, he are good, typical wolfdog, but can be better like and others alls wolfdog. EXELENT-IDEAL dog not exist ;-) breeder wish have this one, but this is like utopia and its very good, we can work, work and work :)

This is what I have REALLY posted:

But i can understand you , "Nebulosa" :

Yes, it´s very difficult to find something negative in the pedigree of the first litter of the actuell World Champion and were all 4 grandparents have an "P1" in bonitation -code for "excellent"....beside other advantages like hip-results ( i already told ) , colour of eyes, quality of hair and coat , small ears and correct short tail, and, and , and....

You left away the main part !

(This main part was written by ME , not by YOU, you are right !
It was a writing/ printing mistake only.Sorry to this.)

But this you have been writing:

Originally posted by "Nebulosa":
But let me show you something that can be a shock for someone who only accept the existance of A dogs, the full brother of Bluebell, Baschan, is D, as some of her brothers have C results.

So, I think its time to wake up and at least try to understand what is selection, and that in dog breed does not exist perfect dog, sorry to say, but if you even tough that the line of your dog was the "most healty and clean of the breed" you were mistaken, its a line which need a lot of selection, as 99% of whole breed, and its a very important info if you even think about breed with your "perfect dog", open the eyes and see the truth can hurt, but its needed for the breed selection.

Do you think i don´t know already all this ??And about the other three ancestors of Carlos´litter you were talking about before?

Of course i know!

And i say it again: About "Perfect dog" I have never spoken - only you .

I´m betting at last 100 against 1 to you - that my "Zeus" will have an "A" for hip-result in future - you can take me by my public word here, you "Great Guru!"

And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics - may be you should read what i have posted here in the German wolfdog about 5 years before?

But yes , i´m sorry - you can not read German language.

Have a nice evening all !

And as answer to "Rona" in her posting No 15.:

Yes, of course i am aware ! May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...

The opposite is correct : He made the best choice he could get - for the reasons i already have told before.

Good night to everyone.

Yes, I him say better used other male for new blood in Spain.
And used Itu for others female or daughter Emba when he have this same REOLUP like Emba. :p

Oh, so it was you who posted it really, in this case I corrected the quote name, because I would not believe in such nonsense. :lol:

Today is pretty easy you receive P1 with some judges, even if your dog have really short legs, open lips, long ears and so on, he will receive P1 as we can see in some results even by this database, I really dont care for bonitation results, but I need to agree that if it were done properlly, would be very interessing way of evaluation, really usefull.

You said your dog is correct, I already see genetic for shorth legs in the linebreeding that was done, but for some people the most important is short ears, clear eyes and nice head, maye its exmplaine why we can meet such horrible bodies and terrible movement in dogshows, I hope your dog will be correct, and not more one shorth legged wolfdog, as the majority of the exemplars which not reach 55.


As I hope you also know that if the dog have perfect hips, independant of his treatment or feed he will have A or B hips, not more than it.
You have some B and C brothers, dont try to convince me that this D was "acquired". :lol:

When its really needed google helps a lot, but it isn't as I have all information in my own lenguage, principally about hips and elbows displasy, but when I search for more uncommon genetic ill and I dont find properly information in portuguese, I can search in French, Spanish, Italian and English with perfection and its already solve the problem, I can add also a little bit of Polish thanks to Polish people and their patience with me :lol:, but I hope one day I will learn German also as I find his sound and write very nice.
But thanks for worrie about my lack of knowledge in German language.

I really hope your dog will be healty, but even healty if you will use in the breeding, you will need to take care when select a male.

So I should remind you what who wrote here.

The best litter :lol: but not only by hips... when you wrote it I was sure you didn't knew about the brother of Bluebell.
P1... P1.. short ears, clear eyes and all of blabering I already quote.

As I was sure you didn't knew what does men " select a dog breed" but...

:roflmao
You see, I'm sure German people are very responsible with HD results and also with HD information, you really should get better informed.
I confirmed what I tough before.

Why don't you take my advice and think before you write???:rock_3
On 03-01-2010, 15:31 I wrote to Carlos (post 36 in the original topic):
So you were wrong again :lol: Travelling to matchings, especially with the first litter(s) only shows devotion on the part of the breeder and his care about the breed development.

Daiva is not my favourite breeder, but I'm not blind and see that Harmonia is a great dog. 8) It seems a person who disagrees with you may only have ugly dogs! :lol::lol::lol:
Don't you see such approach is childish and immature and through your ignorance and blind fury you are only discrediting Carlos' kennel and destroying his dog's reputation as a future rep? :rock_3

Originally Posted by Silvester
The mating of this both parents of this litter are at the moment on of the best or just the best combination you can find in the whole breed, not only by hip- results but also by very low incest - quotient ...not to talk from other advantages more.

Yes, THIS (!) i have posted here, well done, very correct !! ( And it´s simply the truth.)

BUT I DID NEVER TELL SOMETHING ABOUIT "PERFECTNESS" OR WAS USING THE WORD "PERFECT !!!"

DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND ? "THE BEST" has completely NOT the same meaning as "PERFECT" ! AND i said also "at the moment" !

Read again above, as long as you are able to understand .

Dear "Nebulosa" ,may be you should train your English understanding and knowledge also a little ?:lol:

Originally Posted by Silvester http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif
May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

Dear "Rona" the same is for you :

Read correctly BEFORE you are telling such rubbish here !

I was only asking WHY YOU THINK CARLOS DID NOT TAKE HIS OWN DOG ITUBORIS for breeding !

That making of long travelling for mating shows the engagement of the breeder is of course right and you have posted correctly - the same i said also.I also have seen what you wrote in your posting No.36

BUT THIS WAS NOT THE QUESTION !!

Rona, please read and understand my questions right until you write such furtheron nonsense here.

originally posted by Rona:
It seems a person who disagrees with you may only have ugly dogs!

Where i have told something like this ? These are only YOUR words !

I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio.

I have NOT said Harmonia is "ugly" - only YOUR word !!

Now you can see ??:lol:

My own experience, other breeds breeder's experience and common sence tells me, that show results also mean something. Yes, corruption happens everythere, but a REALLY ugly or agressive dog most probably will never be a champion of many countries. I really do not know a really nice dog, who would be attending shows and not getting good evaluations, because of the corrupted judges.
I was also asking the president of Lithuanian Cynological Society about the character test that were an obligation for all the dogs some time ago. I wanted to know, why they are not used now. She simply explained that if a dog can pass a todays show with many people and dogs and noise and so on, he would pass that former character test too. So maybe successful attendence in dog shows also shows the dog is at least stable enought not to kill anyone in a new situation? :roll: It is not a rule of course, just an assumption. And a little oftopic :oops:

By the way, Silvester, you are not the most polite and nice person, aren't you?

Ok, I am ofcourse can be accused of being not objective, because my little girl is a daughter of Harmonia, but let me say. Yes, maybe she is not the most correct dog of all, but she has two amazing things that make people open their mouths - it is the charisma, the pride, the thing that is called "knowing her value". And the other thing is the way she moves and it is really amazing, believe me ;)

hi,

i wish for you and for "ZEUS", but if you know the risks of the genetics so much you donot can be on that…. :roll:

As regards knowing the actual value a reproducer, it is necessary to wait before being able to express, on photograph it is true that I find Amore splendid, but nothing allows yet; to express on its real value standard, Harmonia has defects, like which dog (the perfect dog do not exist, besides mine of course :lol: ) nevertheless we can see his value and to see that this bitch put at the world pups very interesting… The titles are a thing very gratifiante for breeder and the owner but of nothing an index for the value reproducer…. ( is just more salesman :rock_3 )

HD, always, in any case, start from genetic heriatage of the dog (100%)
Development and severity of disease are governed by the same genetic haritage (10-30%), and by environmental influence (70-90%).

Lupus Ibericus litter is excelent for HD...
Similar litters with exclent result:
Arimminum "O", COR 26,56 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
Arimmiunm "N" COR 21,72 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
dei Navarri "A" COR 17,39 have 5 dog's HD A total 6 dog's
(i know the 5 dog's without result, are not dog's with bad result not published, are simply dog's without x-rays)

..this can not give 100% security, but on selection this litter can boast one of the most best range estimate on CZW..

..the brother Baschan can say all, or nothing, remember Bety and Colt Zeper..is most important to study the offspring, relationship, genetic similarity.

Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.

yes he can used and Itu, but when have male in home better used others, and make new blood in Spain. Or not? For you this not good idea? for my yes. Itu is young and he have his time for all. 8) like and Amore, or not?

Sorry Daniela, but I think you are very unfair towards Daiva. I know she was helping Carlos to choose the male for Emba and instead of promoting her own dogs, her and from her kennel she was suggesting him to import new blood to his country. Itu lives already in Spain, he has good owner and it is sure the dog will not "dissapear" - he can be used anytime. So I think it is to her credit that she was not thinking about her interests but helped Carlos to make also something good for the Spanish CzW population.

If she would be "resent" she could really easy influence Calros opinion by telling him invented stories about problems or hidden genetic faults coming in the line of Amore. She could exactly do the same as many breeder on this forum do every day...

No - she is not recent. But I would say you can be (at last a little bit) grateful to her that Carlos choosed Amore... As you wrote before - when he was choosed he was an unknown dog... So think twice - WHY Carlos from Spain decided to go so many kilometers to use an UNKNOWN dog. Not because he is a fortune-teller who know Amore will become famous but because SOMEONE told him "there is a nice dog living in CZ"... 8)

Hartl was telling about it already a long time before.... And it is very good visible when you follow the lines in the database - in some lines there are only about 50% with dogs wich get HD-A results but there are also lines with 80% or even more dogs with HD-A. It is HUGE difference. But short:

HD-free parents and "HD-free lines" do not GARANTY that there will be no puppies with HD. BUT there ARE lines which "bring HD" and lines which are (almost) "HD-free" (with a very small % of HD-dogs).

Díky Margo.
Budu psát česky, protože ty rozumíš a ostatní toto číst nemusí :rock_3 a pro mě je dost obtížné psát anglicky.
Carlos se mi svěřovat, že krytí konzultuje s tebou. Já jsem se dlouho bránila spojení Emba x Mio, protože na můj vkus jsou psi velmi příbuzní. Carlos mě po několikaměsíčním emailování nakonec přemluvil. Mám tady věc chápat tak, že Daiva byla prostředníkem? Ona Mia doporučila? Z jejich příspěvků mi připadá že s tímto spojením spíš nesouhlasila ...

v tym ja nie bolam prostrednikem a som od teho rada. Amore mio je krasny psik, no carlos mohl mit aj lepsy a zaujimavsy vrh. Daniela dost teho, mas svoj vrh a sveho psa. a nie delaj z sebia mudcenici.

Daniela in this case when carlos used Amore i not have interes, I help him with others male, not this. And I am glad for this. He make this who make. Have nice puppy but not very interesing pedigree, this is not good. But breeders is deferent, one wish have interesing dogs, others make this same pedigree variants. Daniela You have nice dog, nice litter but stop, not make for self martyrs.

Daiva, mluvíte tu o mém psu a já mám právo napsat svůj názor a svou pravdu.
Každý má na chov vlastní názor a své představy o odchovech, které budou presentovat jméno jeho chovatelské stanice. Jeho vizitkou budou výhry i prohry.
no carlos mohl mit aj lepsy a zaujimavsy vrha - toto lze říct o každém spojení, o každém vrhu ... Štěňatům je několik měsíců a ty nemůžeš vědět, jestli by byl vrh po jiném psu lepší, nikdo to nemůže vědět. Carlos je majitel Emby a já Amore Mia, je jen naše věc (nás dvou) jestli tyto psy spojíme.

Yes, for this and I have my rights say who I think. Yes?

Yes, but You say this "Já jsem se dlouho bránila spojení Emba x Mio, protože na můj vkus jsou psi velmi příbuzní." and see self, cann make and better variant ( pedigree variant). I believe this be nice dog, like and others who have inbreed in Reolup dogs.
p.s.and please writte english, I know maybe we better can speak in czech, but this is english forum.

Yes, it is inbreed. But I think not big enough to say Calros not to make this mating (especially that all other things were "in plus" for Amore ;))... The inbreed is not big and is made on Grey Wolf - nice and healthy dog. And I think in Spain inbreeded dogs with such pedigree can have high value for breeding. Expecially that basing on the photos the puppies will be really great, typical dogs in the future.

The Spanish (and Portuguese) problem is that for many years both countries were "garbage can" for other breeders. The main "champion" lines there are made of the unsold puppies who nobody wanted to buy in Czech Republic and Slovakia (because of poor exterier or problematic lines (HD and other problems)). Whole litters of such "low value" puppies were send there and are the breeding base there. Now sice some years it is changing (thanks to the new owners/breeders there) but still you can see many dogs with really untypical heads and bodies - where the faults are very good "based" in the genetics.
Only excellent dogs with strong "pedigrees" - not only because of the inbreed but also because of the exterier of the parents, grand parents, grend-grend-parents - can defeat the bad genes. And (small) inbreed can be useful in such case... ;)

The combination Emba x Amore was risk....not only inbreed to Grey Wolf z Molu Es!!
I told this to Daniela and Carlos, too.

I know ancestors of their pedigree better than you, sorry.

But puppies are here and I wish them only healthy and strong imunne.
system! Others isn ´t momentaly important.

Margo, do you made some dwarf tests of your dogs?? Is time to make it especially Jolly´s line.

And about HD is discus about nothing, if not exist ONE HD Vet. centrum for evalutions of CSWs. The differences are too big for any statistic!


Monika

Yes, but I don´t like that you always emphasize averageness of Amore Mio. Why? His exterior is at least above standard (according to classification of prominent judges) and level of his offspring we will see in the future.

"Expert said"... :lol: Monika stop finally blaming other breeders. If you have something against these dogs and breeders just write it. Write about the genetic faults by Amore and by Amba. I hope it will be not like with Michael and the invented problems by Zlata Palz kennel... :lol:

Sorry Monika but the population in Spain and Portugal still try to recover after your "help" for this population some years ago... And believe me - the breeders there are NOT thankful for it...

Monika - FACTS!!! No more a lot of words without ANY basics.

Monika, please. Have at last some limits in spreading the gossips... There is not EVEN one dwarf born in Jolly puppies. And I publish information about ALL puppies born - not only about that which survuved. I do not hide them than like you do...

Oh, now you changing the strategy... Nice explanation for all breeders which HD-results are worser and much worser than average stats... :rock_3

And my not like who others people speak about my dogs. But this is normal. Not alls mas like one dog, all have theirs type. Amore i SAY( hmm maybe 5-6 time) is nice, typical wolfdog, but exist and better like him. But he not my favourite. and end.this is my opinion. and with this you can agree or not
In wolfdog.org we have a debate about dogs, breed plans and breed and normal, when people have others opinions and idea.

........and for everybody stay calm, please...:):)
The breeding of dogs is a gamble, always and for results we must to wait min. about 2 years??? and more, because some diseases and reproduction´s problems show as latter.

Monika

Note: For Margo, do you know something about genetic of dwarf?? I assume no. Do you saw results of CSWs for dwarf ??

And about HD??? I saying still same, I made confrontation of polish results with results of our MVDr. Sterc! You NO!

Emba is Carlos female dog and for him was Amore Mio the best of all.
It´s not important if is Amore Mio your favorite or not, because you´re not owner of Emba. And end.

like child, :rock_3 tup, tup with foot. Yes, she is't my dog, like and Amore, and? I can say who I think and say. END, FIN, konec, like You say.

Me? :lol::lol::lol:

You understand :) great and end this all. You have nice litter and moore time mas pass with they. And make moore foto pupps. :);)

Originally posted by Margo:
Yes, it is inbreed. But I think not big enough to say Calros not to make this mating (especially that all other things were "in plus" for Amore ;))... The inbreed is not big and is made on Grey Wolf - nice and healthy dog. And I think in Spain inbreeded dogs with such pedigree can have high value for breeding. Expecially that basing on the photos the puppies will be really great, typical dogs in the future.

Originally posted by CDaniela:
Emba is Carlos female dog and for him was Amore Mio the best of all.
It´s not important if is Amore Mio your favorite or not, because you´re not owner of Emba. And end.

These two postings are exactly what i think about this mating too !

Of course i will put in here more pictures of "Zeus" in future.

Best greetings to all from Germany