About "stud list" on wolfdog.org
 

We are Wolfdog.org users; we are owners, breeders, interested spectators; some of us attend work camps, others use to go to expos; we have regularly ENCI registered dogs, a high percentage of whom have hip and elbow scores, and many of whom had their bonitace... opinions can be different, but in general we are all lovers of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog breed and we love our dogs.
For us all Wolfdog.org has always been a precious mean of support, a source of knowledge thanks to its database, created thanks to the helpfulness of thousands of people that saw in the site set up by Margo and Przemek a true aid in the development of the breed, free from the conditionings and from the influences of big breeders and "lobbies ".
Its strength is the great quantity of data it gathers, also and above all the ones that someone wanted to keep hidden, together with the existence of few equal rules for everybody, without favoritisms for this or that faction.
Recently there have been some changes in the stud dogs list that have aroused some worries, it seems in fact that there has been a discriminatory treatment towards the Italian breeding dogs, in particular one:

• Voice of Wolf z Molu Es, HD A - ED 0/1, has been excluded from the list without neither notices nor explanations, and only thanks to a thread on the English forum the owner has learned the reason:

“The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.” (ADMIN)

But despite this declaration, all the dogs whose elbows were not tested or those with hidden results stayed in the list. Besides, the problem of the elbow dysplasia is complex and it’s not clear on what data the statistic has been evaluated, considering that until a few years ago the dogs’ elbow were not examined, and even today it’s only done in a few countries, (the 65% of the stud dogs with elbow scores is in the Italian list to 09/09/2009)* If the site is really a resource for everybody we ask that it applies equal rules for the users of every country. It would be a democratic gesture to discuss the rules BEFORE they were applied, and it would also make the scientific motivations behind them clearer.

dany
bonfiglioli
hayla
riko06
star
sunnyna
betti
piccolino
anastasia
laila
edha
jal
molisanodream
starjumper
erica&amy
elisaP
i piccy
Antarctica
arf
woland77
aly87
matteo&martina
valentina
frafairy
na
mogwai
divina
maya
ciao69
bricicca1
arnaldo it
venerusoangelo
giobi 81
tatanka1094
luca
pisculli
marco
zach
chiara.giardini
m.greta
Lyudmila Encheva
roby e gaio
sirius
zattilio
littlewolf
fede86
denial
odisseo
sciamalaia
robykut
MariNoor
amaguk
ezibaby
gilda
ste
chepi
ciao69
riko06
mat
littlewolf
hadankama
ovogibba
wolflinx
germans
ornella
vassel
laila
martab
navarre

Please add my name to the list to, I vote for 100% HD and ED result info on ALL Stud Dogs.

Best regards / Mikael

For me the most honest and objective way would be to publish all stud dogs on the list with their HD and ED results.

And breeders who want to use a stud dog are smart enough always to ask the owner for copy's of all the official results before covering!
And based on this info they can make their own choose for combinations.

And yes there are now dogs with hidden results, or without results. Because not in all countries (or breed clubs) it is common or obligated to make ED x rays.
So it will be good to when we explain and explain again in every country, on wolfdog and in club magazines why it is also important to make ED xrays!

Till now in Holland only 1 (!) CsW was tested for ED. And not because the other owners want to hide things!!!
But because it is not a common or standard procedure in my country. (only for some breeds) That is why I also did write an article about ED in the Dutch club magazine.
And I hope that in future more and more CsW will have ED results.:)

But for me it is not honest (and smart) only to remove the CsW's with positive ED results from the studdog list.
While all other males with hidden or without results can be on the stud dog list.

72 people......................................

Yes 72-0 this far 8)

Equal rights and justice on the stud list please / Mikael

73-0 now. :) I'm for explaining the problems and not for hiding them!

74, I don´t see any sense in not showing bad results in studdogs, I want to know as much as possible about studs and their offspring.

Ina

75-1 You did forget my first post ;-)

76

Maybe we should actualize the list? :p

???
ehm...
Margo? you are Margo joining a list which is against some rules of the woldog.org site....owned by ....Margo?
:?:?:?
I'm confused!!

I wrote long time ago I was against putting IN the list dogs without ED test and putting OUT of the list dogs with ED 1 test, it is absurd and useless;as if you punish who makes the test and prize who doesn't.

But...who made the rules of the studlist that we are petitioning against?
it has been there for a long time...

Paula moved away the part about "Admin" and I agree on creation of new thread but...this part was moved away, I think it was coherent to the thread:

I'm against of moving the dogs wih ED problems of the list, in Holland as Mijke already mentioned ED is not nescessary yet for breeding.

That is the reason why I didn't do the test yet, If my dog would be selected as a stud dog (which I now think he is to young for), than I can still make the x-ray if the female is x-rayed.

For now I don't have any problems, so for his health I don't have to make the pictures, and of course I know you cannot believe somebody on his/her words.
So why not just put the results in the list, so that every breeder can select the right male/female for his/her dog, I don't think the average wolfdog visitor is THAT stupid that he cannot make a choice for himself.

So I am AGAINST of removing the dogs without he ED results.

Some kind of sleepwalking. :rock_3

I think people need a time to get adaptated, also I dont believe some people will make the dogs pass again for the anesthesie only for make ED results.
Would be more fair if start to require the ED results for the new stud dogs, dogs born from half of 2008 ahead.

I don't think you need anaesthesia for the elbows (with a normal dog ;) )

You may add me too. I don't care very much about this particular issue, but if it might help, I support the majority!

AmeriCani Kennels
 

Please add me too!

Hallo, nice to meet everyone!

Let's actualize the list:
dany
bonfiglioli
hayla
riko06
star
sunnyna
betti
piccolino
anastasia
laila
edha
jal
molisanodream
starjumper
erica&amy
elisaP
i piccy
Antarctica
arf
woland77
aly87
matteo&martina
valentina
frafairy
na
mogwai
divina
maya
ciao69
bricicca1
arnaldo it
venerusoangelo
giobi 81
tatanka1094
luca
pisculli
marco
zach
chiara.giardini
m.greta
Lyudmila Encheva
roby e gaio
sirius
zattilio
littlewolf
fede86
denial
odisseo
sciamalaia
robykut
MariNoor
amaguk
ezibaby
gilda
ste
chepi
ciao69
riko06
mat
littlewolf
hadankama
ovogibba
wolflinx
germans
ornella
vassel
laila
martab
navarre
Mikael
Runningwolf
z Peronoòwki
michaelundinaeicchorn
mijke
Nebulosa
Rona
Americani

whereas Jmvdwiel is "against of removing the dogs without ED results", but I guess not against including dogs WITH ED results, whatever the result is. Is it correct?
Are we in 78 or 79?

I think we should include dogs with any results of ED in the list and not to exclude people who do not have the results yet.
I think it is better to know that hiding, since it is not an official list of a specific club .
If I'm wrong or if you do not agree please say your opinion ..

-1 read Mijke´s post nr 3 and 8

It is to be 77-1 I think

Very best regards / Mikael

I understand that you wish to include only dogs with HD and ED results. And I think that this is the wish everyone has.
But in this moment we have to consider that dogs without ED results are included, whereas dogs with not positive ED results are excluded.

I believe that the FIRST STEP to be taken is to include all dogs with or without ED results, and not to discriminate dogs with "not perfect" ED results, as explained in the petition. (this is MY personal point of view, not the point of view of all the petitioners)

Only afterwards, we can think about new rules to be applied.
The point is that the actual situation is clearly unfair and discriminatory, and needs to be changed immediately.
Agreeing on the "new rules" to be applied is much more complicated, and requires reasonings to be shared...this is my thought but I am more than willing to consider different proposals

Marta please let Mijke out from the list for the moment because it's not clear what he thinks about this last proposal.

No problem, I only wanted to make clear that one thing is the petition posted by Navarre, and another thing is the discussion on how to set new rules for the stud list.
We now are in 77

I think it's important to publish all results and announce dogs in the list, which have a breeding license in their country.
It's my decision and my responsibility to take a male with bad results to my female. (surely it shouldn't be)
If all results are published without evaluating, mybe people will send more results to the database.
Like Ina and other breeders, I want to know as much as possible about the dogs and the next of kin.

Greetings Bille

Sorry Martab my falt :oops: I meant post nr 3 and 8 not nr 2 and 8 :oops:

I´m Mikael not Mijke by the way ;)

Best regards / Mikael

Yes you are totally correct :)
But you can call me Judith

whereas Jmvdwiel is "against of removing the dogs without ED results", but I guess not against including dogs WITH ED results, whatever the result is. Is it correct?

thank you Judith and Mikael :)

Sorry for al misunderstanding by my fault!!

In post nr 8 I did mention with 75 - 1 :
75 for publishing - against 1 admin :thumbs

So I am correct on the list!:lol:

:lol: Thanks Mijke for clearing that all out...

Than it is 79-1 or 79-0 as Admin has not really voted yet ;)
And I hope he will vote 80-0 :rock_3

Best regards / Mikael

I do have exactly the same opinion. How can we expect breeders to be honest and open to each other and talk/inform about diseases - if even admin of wolfdog.org punishes honesty? There shouldn't be any evaluation of any diseases since this doesn't help to keep our race healthy at all - as we can see in other threads. We only succeed if we work together.

Please publish all dogs.

exactly my opinion! Tanja

I would like to point out that the initial message of the list does NOT say that ALL dogs with ED0 or 1 SHOULD be on the list...not at all.

it intelligently says that being the site a private site, the owner can apply any rule he wants, but it would be best if the rules are CLEAR, STATED, and applied to ALL DOGS.

My position is the following, and I've expressed it many times.
Studlist: all dogs can be studs "advertise" studs then put limits and apply them.
It is authorised to use HDC in some countries, and in others not.
ED1 is also of common use.
But if WD wants to exclude these dogs, then be it, take ALL dogs with ED1 , HDC or WITHOUT results (official results, proven with copy sent to ADMIN or Margo in the past) OFF the list.
I made HD to Oliver when he was 14 months old...and forgot to make ED...which I made when he was 3 years old.
My choice...but Oliver deserves to be in the list in this case.

Massimo

A possible proposal we discussed in the Italian forum is: publishing all studs, and flagging with a particular symbol the studs that are in possession of all the requirements indicated by the Clubs.

A disclaimer at the beginning of the list together with a legend could explain:
- that dogs are included in the list together with HD and ED results (if available),
- that it is highly recommendable to check carefully HD and EH results;
- that according to "X" Kennel club only studs with (for instance) HD A to B, ED 0 should be used for breeding, and according to "Y" Kennel club..(to be completed with other requirements if different)
- that the symbol "#" means that the dog is in possession of all the requirements requested by "X" Kennel Club, that the symbol "¶" mens that he dog is in possession of all the requirements requested by "Y" Kennel Club...

The symbols I indicated are only an example; we could make different colors, or adding a column ...or whatever could be useful to identify "recommended" studs, without eliminating the others, and leaving breeders free to choose and/or evaluate.
I believe this way of proceeding could be a fair compromise between who wants rigid rules to be applied in order to safeguard the breed, and who prefers to be provided with as much information as possible about all existing studs

I just want to ask when we are in the change the roles section, even if it might be a bit off topic...

Can a breeder put up for example a litter on this site even if the dogs is for example HD C/C X E/E or A/A X D/D :ehmmm ???

Is the only role now official HD result, no matter the result :roll: ???

Best regards / Mikael
　

:evil_2Admin Please!!! Lesten to us!:huh
Pleeeeeeeease:Rose

I agree with this 100%. You can put me also on the list.

Exactly...
 

I plan on breeding in America. I have 2 males & 2 females. All from decent lines, and none with HD or ED results
(Piter has his as a "B", but I want to re-certify once I change to AKC/FSS Pedigree) results. I have a female (Estia) who was hit by a car at a young age. Her fractured hip is bad on x-ray. Her other hip is probably a "B" according to OFA. I don't like Italy's methods. I want to return to America with a reputation, preferably good in the sense that I haven't bred any bad dogs. NOR do I have the intention to. I want to do everything in my power to represent my country and my kennels as an asset to the breed.
Does anyone know the method of HD testing Mexico has. If I move there can I be listed as a breeder? Just curious....

admin has not responded to anyone.
But it seems to he has responded with updates on new lists of stud-dog.

2 examples

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...ogs&country=IT

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...ogs&country=CZ

The topic was solved already before the protest was posted on the forum. Long before it appeared the ED-1 dogs were again included on the stud dog list.

After hot discussion with some moderators I agreed with their arguments. So we decided to include all dogs also the ill dogs (if they have the stud dog rights). So it will be as it always was - on the stud dog list will be listed all dogs which have breeding rights in their countries. The only additional requirement will be: they must have official HD results HD-A, HD-B or HD-C.
The breeder will decide to possible use dogs with ellbow dysplasia, heart problems, epilepsy or other problems.

STILL excluded will be all mixes and not pure breed CzWs. But also stud dogs owned by people who also own/breed mixes. Here will be NO compromises.

[quote = Admin; 285.155] L'allevatore decide di cani possibile utilizzo con displasia ellbow, problemi cardiaci, epilessia o altri problemi.
[/ Quote]

well, has always been what we were trying to impress you. A greeting and good work