Gastric Contortion (Bloat) in CsV?
 

I know gastric contortion is an issue that you need to watch out for with GSDs (enough that you should take precautions).

Seeing that CsVs are bred from working line GSDs - is this also a significant concern with the breed? I hear a lot about hips but some of the factors that raise / lower the risk of bloat with GSDs can also be genetic.

From the pictures I see the CsV's chest isn't as prominent as it is on the GSD and it looks much smaller / tighter (relative to their size) so this is giving me the impression that it isn't as much of an issue as it is with the GSD.

Sorry I can't answer your question directly, dragger, but I'm hopeful that someone with a lot more experience and history with multiple generations of CSV's will be able to answer this for all of us. I too, am very interested in the longer-term health charactersitics of the CSV.

I can confirm, as I have an adult female GSD (mutt) and an adult female CSV, that I was amazed at the differences in their chest shapes. My GSD has such a broad, barrel-shaped chest whereas my CSV has a much narrower tighter chest that is somewhat "pointed" at the under crest, lacking the large bellowing side expanses of my GSD's chest. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that this helped them run through the snow or something (not much snow down here in Louisiana). :cry:

Not to hijak your thread, but in addition to the bloat issue, I would also like to know a somewhat related health question - what is the typical/average life-span of a healthy CSV? Are there any differences in male/female life spans due to their genetically-based size difference?

Thanks in advance!

Flint's brother died from bloat so I know it can happen. :(

And though it is more common in barrel shaped dogs such as the GSD, any large breed dog can get it. Same with Hip Dysplasia, most people seem to think it is just a GSD disease, but any breed can get it, [bulldogs being the most common if I remember right.] And it's not necessarily genetic, my GSD came from Ch. parents who were both OFA 'good' and a grandparent who was OFA 'excellent' [only fewer than 1% of Shepherd get that rating] and sadly my girl developed Hip Dysplasia by the age of 6 months. CsV's seem to be a relatively healthy breed though, all I'm saying is all large breed can develop these problems.
The only health problems Flint has had is he's allergic to chicken [devlops hot spots/itchy skin] and he has a very sensitive stomach but I have him on a good diet and he never had a serious problem.

As for lifespan, I don't know since Flint is only 5, but his grandfather, Ali Reolup just turned 14 and is looking good so I'm hoping for a long healthy life with my boy! :]

Any breed can get bloat (our vet, during a bloat seminar, showed us x-rays of a toy poodle that got bloat).

While boat itself is not genetic, some of the conditions can be. A deep / barrel chest can raise the risk of bloat, "gassy" (digestive) dogs can also be a higher risk (I think this factor can also be genetic).

But - more energetic dogs can be a higher risk, this is not genetic (obviously).

Highly submissive dogs are also at a higher risk (rolling on their backs often) - obviously this is not generic either.

Royal Canin's German shepherd formula is also designed to help prevent bloat with the shape of their kibble (kinda look like larger X's from the Alphabits cereal). Even their GSD puppy formula is a smaller version of this. :)

While there are risks and factors that we can help prevent it (nap time immediately after means and a walk, etc.), some are higher risk than others (GSDs, Great Danes, etc..). I'm just wondering where the vlcak might be on the risk factor. I'm sure their size (slightly smaller than a GSD?) makes them a higher risk than most breeds, though.

I guess if Luna grows into a barrel chested, energetic, submissive girl who farts a lot we might need to keep the bloat kit in reach? :)

In Italian Forum we usually speak a lot about Gastric contortion, and I can say, by reading, as I am no owner yet - one day I'll be I hope :) - that CSVs can have it too. So the advices that are usually given are these:

1 - Divide the daily food income in two meals - so that the stomach does not get too full
2 - Keep the dog quiet for AT LEAST one hour before eating and AT LEAST two hours after eating
3 - If dogfood is used, avoid a great income of water immediately after the meal. Give just a small amount, and then more after few time.
4 - Check if the dog "burps". It is a good sign: the gas exits from the stomach and the way is free
5 - Do not water the dogfood: it absorbs water and starts creating gas in the stomach (same reason as per Point 3).

That's all I can remember right now ^^...

Well, they're definitely more at risk than other breeds, even without the barrel chest, but yeah, it sounds like you know the signs to look for and how to help prevent it so I'm sure Luna will be fine. And don't worry, I've never heard of a submissive CsV ;)

Smaller than a GSD?? What makes you think that?? Flint is 27" at the shoulder and last time I weighed him, was at least 100 pounds. I know females are significantly smaller, but I remember Shetan [Flint's mother] was larger than my GSD as well. I fed my GSD Royal Canin but the main meat sorce is chicken so it's no good for Flint. I feed him either lamb & rice or venison & rice formulas. And I feed him at dinner time right before bed when he's not too active [though he gets pretty frisky when he hears the dog food cupboard open.] ;)

lots of info here:
http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm#Causes

Very interesting Link, Bite! Even because it gives some advices that I usually found the other way round: here it says: Do not use an elevated food bowl, the question is: why?
I've always read that we should NOT use ground food bowls, but that we should keep the bowl at the same level as the stomach, to allow the gases and the air to go away while the dog is eating.

It is even interesting to notice that too many burps are as worrying as no burps at all.

Just in my opinion about bowls... you know how wolfs are eating? Yes, they're eating from the ground level, they don't put their meal on some rock or tree... so I think, that the natural (low) level should be kept for csv as well.

That's right Bite, but our wolfdogs don't eat hard and rare meat, just hunted and fresh (even if not tender unless they hunted a puppy or so), they eat dryfood at a much higher speed than a wolf can eat its prey (it has to separate meat from bone, and wild animals have harder meat because they make a lot of movement).
So, it would make sense with a BARF diet, but with dryfood? How does it behave inside the stomach? How would the gas exit better? These are questions that need an answer before taking a decision... :)

I am very interested in knowing everyone's experience and opinion, and if I question an answer is only to give more answers to our WHYs :)...

now I'm confused :D all my dogs were always eating from ground level and any of them had any problems... but yes, they were quite small comparing to csv... I wonder what vet says about all this bowl level problem :)

I didn't want to confuse you ^^... Yes, what is vet's word?

(as soon as I have time, I'll translate the link you posted on Italian Forum: we discussed a bit of bloat few weeks ago, and I am sure we will have other opinions... some of them may answer directly here I think...)

Ah, bloat. A fear for many dog owners.. We’ve learned a lot about bloat for our Dobe.. This is what I can say about it..

Regarding Gastropexy, I've read that it isn't always working. A dog that had a bloat and torsion can have it again, so one should be extra-careful. Sometimes the gastropexy just gives more time to operate but does not solve the problem...

No, it certainly doesn't solve the problem. All it can do is perhaps lessen the impact and buy a bit more time. Bloat can still happen, for sure. :(

If people do it here, they do it around 6mth to 1 yr of age, usually before the dog has ever had a chance to bloat. It's usually done at the same time the animal is spayed/neutered, which is widely regarded around here as part of pet ownership.

Exactly. I am not saying I wouldn't do it should it happen, but I think I would not do it as a prevention (it's still an operation). BUT I would make sure that I do not endanger my dog (I will make sure I won't endanger mu future dog... I'll have to wait...)

As I understand it, spay/neuter is not standard in Europe.. so for sure I would think about a gastropexy more if I were in your shoes. In the states, most people besides breeders or others involved in show or performance events will generally spay or neuter their dogs, so, again, it is an operation nonetheless but usually we combine the spaying/neutering and the gastropexy if we decide to have one. And in that way, here it is used as a preventative many times.

You're right Yukidomari, especially in Italy we usually think twice before operating our pets. Sometimes is just ignorance, I have to admit, but usually we do not like to "cut" them unnecessarily. Plus, neutering a bitch means "opening" her, but neutering a male one is just a small cut... even if they both need complete anaesthesia...

Statistics showed that dry food in general gives a higher risk than raw feeding or can food. The bigger the meal is, the higher the risk, one meal a day is riskier than more meals a day (but still a high amount keeps riskier).
To give left overs from the owners meals lowers the risk etremely (59%), to add can food also (28%) but not as much as left overs.
To give only one kind of food have a three times higher risk than dogs with changes in their diet.
The reason seems to be that dogs that are fed with dry food have the biggest stomaches (the ones with one meal a day the most) with the longest tissues compared with other dogs what makes the stomach turn more easily. Dogs with a turned stomach have longer tissues than normal dogs.
Dogs with under-avarage weight that suffered a severe or chronic disease in their youth have a higher risk in general.
As far as I know it has never been really proved that high activity after feeding can cause a turned stomach.
Dogs with a broad deep chest and giant breeds have a much higher risk, the theory is that their is more place for the stomach to turn. And as far as I can see CSW have a quite low risk but of course as all dogs can get one. Here in my opinion the reason is - like so often that the wolf exterieur is the one that has prooven the best - a not deep and broad chest, contrairy to a GSD.

Ina

How exactelly the shape ad formula of this dog food works preventing Gastric Contortion? I use this dog food, but I want to learn more about the subject.
Thanks!;-)

According to Royal Canin, the large size kibble and unique shape is supposed to slow down consumption rate which in turn can help prevent boat, but from my personal experience [my own GSD as well as my sisters] both tended to pick up a bite of kibble, walk across the room and drop it on the floor and pick it back up one kibble at a time to eat it lol. I've also read in books this is a common GSD trait [and why you're not supposed to feed them outside in a graveled kennel, they can accidentally eat rocks.] Does anyone else's German Shepherds do this?? :p

As for my CsV, he 'wolfs' down his food but always rests afterwards so I think he's safe. ;)

Personally I doubt very much that any size of a dry dog food, unless it's as big as the dog's head, is going to encourage the dog to chew.. a dog's teeth are not made to chew, they are made to rip. Has anyone's dog ever thrown up after eating? The dried food is still whole usually..

I think that Royal Canin's claim and 'breed specific' food is just a marketing campaign, honestly. If you are afraid of your dog eating too fast and contributing to bloat, you can feed your dog off of, for example, a wide cookie sheet. Spreading the food out will slow consumption. If you are in the US, you can also try a BrakeFast bowl. :)

According to Royal Canin:

Source: http://products.royalcanin.us/produc...epherd-24.aspx

(At the bottom)

Our dogs love the formula, regardless of breed. :) Luna loves the puppy version (also designed as an "X", just a lot smaller than the adult kibble).

There are also food bowls you can get to help slow own their food intake:

http://www.strangenewproducts.com/20...ggie-bowl.html

It forces them to eat around the "pegs" thus slowing their intake down.

As the reason seen to cause more problems with dry food feeding after the research I was talking about (Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association), is the fact that with this kind of feeding the time that you can still find food in the stomach after feeding is much longer than with other food and the stomach itself is larger in those dogs, I doubt very much that the shape of the kibbles does make much differences.
Another point is that a high amount of Carbo Hydrates also gives a higher risk, looking at the list of ingredients there are brown rice and oat meal as the second and third highest ingredients on the list.
That Royal Canin as a company that has dry food as its main product won´t tell you that isn´t astonishing.

Ina

Well, I guess I could only imagine how really fast my dogs would eat if they were not eating Royal Canin GS formula...
Cause even eating it they go like if there was a entire year without food!:p

Maybe I ve 2 eating machines here... LOL

Anyway, I dont know if I truly believe on Royal Canin explanation. I do believe that dogs dont use to chew food. No matter what I feed them they grab the food and it goes down to stomach without any chew, lol

Hahahaa EXACTLY!! Mine too. :p
And it's even worse when I feed him a meat diet, he turns into a fuzzy vacuum cleaner so I guess the kibble helps slow him down a little bit. ;)

If you're ever interested in feeding a raw diet - and believe me, there is no vacuum cleaning with a correctly done one - you can always PM me. :)

I should post some pictures somewhere of our dogs working on things like whole feathered chicken bigger than their head, rack of lamb ribs, whole rabbit, etc. Believe me.. when Lantis, our Dobe was on kibble he'd vacuum that up, too. There's no quickly eating appropriate prey, though, or appropriate cuts of meat. A prey-model raw diet encourages a dog to rip and shred, making use of their teeth appropriately. He's going on 13 year old and has never had a dental and his teeth are as shiny as a dog more than half his age, too. :lol:

I would like to feed raw for health reasons but seeing as I live in the city in an apartment [not for long I hope!!!!!!] keeping large chunks of frozen/raw meat would be difficult, not to mention, messsy lol. :p

Also I don't like the [natural] aggression with most dogs that comes from protecting their meat. :new_evil

If your dog protects your meat against you depends on your acting as an owner. Dogs don´t get more aggressiv by feeding raw meat.

Ina

I can second that. While raw is a high-value item, if we're feeding our dogs raw we can walk up to them and take the bowl away from them with no protests from them (at most there might be some grumbling).

They will get snarky if another dog is outside their crate, though.

Wow, why is everybody on this forum so ready to jump on another owner as soon as they can if they don't agree with them?? It's pretty sad considering we all love 'our' breed and I for one am on here to learn and have fun with other owners, not point blame or judge. :cry:

AND you should maybe ask what I mean by 'aggression' before telling me I'm a bad owner.
It is a perfectly NATURAL reaction in any wolf/dog to protect their food, it's how they assert dominance in their pack where the leaders get to eat first and will growl/attack a lower member so that they get their fair share first.

Don't tell me that you've NEVER seen a dog growl over a bone in your life?!?!?!? [Though I doubt they'd ever growl over a Milkbone. My point exactly. ;-) ]

And ANYWAY, of course Flint doesn't show aggression towards ME!!!! That was something I worked on him with since he was a pup, I can take his food away, reach my hand in his mouth whiles he's eating, etc. No matter WHAT the food/treat is with no worries and no guarding from him.
But I have had small scuffles over feeding between my actual dogs [though my GSD bitch was the alpha, not my CsV haha.] which is normal but I don't want my dogs fighting over food so kibble seems safer with occasional raw meat as treats.


http://www.freewebs.com/theanimaltrainer/wpre5.jpg

I don't think I said anything un-forward..

Feeding, like playing, or any other communal activity is one that needs monitoring and management.. whatever you choose is obviously what works for you right now! :)

As for raw being high value.. well, sometimes I wish someone could tell our dogs that. Some days they turn their nose up at the offered meal.. especially if it's their organ day.. ah well. Takes a whole lot of bribing for the young ones like getting kids to eat veggies.. searing with butter.. freezing.. adding broth.. adding mayo (that usually works). Liver is apparently the worst.

It surely wasn´t my intention to jump on you, if I did intimidate you I apologize. And this part of the forum, believe me, is the most peaceful one.
But it is also the part where a lot of people write that are not natives and therefor mostly are not perfect in this language, I surely am not. What brings a tendency to misunderstanding, Germans for example often sound rude because our language is a very direct one, sometimes too direct for English speakers.

I can´t remember anybody telling you are a bad owner. For me the point is that all latest researches show that kibbles give a higher risk of Bloat, I personally think that the form of the kibbles don´t make any difference, no matter what the producer says. You are feeding your dogs with kibbles - we too at the moment by the way - no problem for me because bloats are not very often seen.
It is very often said that raw meet makes dogs aggressiv and dangerous, what simply is wrong. The question of this string was about risk-factors of bloat, not everybody may know about the fact that raw meet doesn´t make aggressiv, that was the reason for my posting.


Well, we have at the moment 5 wolfdogs living in the house and take care for 5 European wolves that we handraised (we raised 10 in total) so I know very well about this fact. But that also is the reason why this is no point for me discussing dogs (and I now talk about me not anybody else!). Dogs are no wolves and even CSW are pure dogs in behaviour, I surely can say this, what means to me that I handle this very differently. I never get into the food discussions in our wolf-pack, I don´t want to be an alpha there, I am no wolf. But our dogs have the genetic disposition to build packs with humans and will do so, they have no problems following their rules instead of their owns. We have a simple rule in our dog-pack: When we give one dog some food, no matter what kind, this food will stay with this dog. We don´t allow stealing or bossing in this situation as long as we are there. When we leave they of course will try to steal when they don´t have anything of their own left but they won´t fight about it. Stable packs no matter if wolves or dogs don´t fight in those situation, if the dog pack is not stable I don´t go away or don´t leave them together alone with food.

To make a long story short and come back to the topic: If you want to avoid bloat it is better not to feed kibbles or if you do to mix them with left overs or meat. You can avoid fighting with simple training.
But bloat is a fatal but quite rare problem and our breed doesn´t seem to be a high risk breed, we do feed our dogs with kibbles at periods when it is easier for us and even sometimes they run around and play afterwards, our wolves surely do.

Ina

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying. If I take something away from my dogs, Zorro and Kiri will sometimes protest (in the form of grumbling, light growls) but nothing that I would consider "aggressive" (in fact, I think those acts are defensive / guardy). Of course they should protest - we aren't here because we enjoy the submissiveness and friendliness of the breed (and if we did we'd be into labs, newfies, and collies (please note: I find nothing wrong with those breeds, (yes, we also have a collie) but those breeds aren't as "intense" as vlcaks (and GSDs, malinois, doberman, etc))) we want our dogs to stand up for themselves and feel comfortable communicating with us (to a point).

I've seen (pet) dogs act truely aggressive with their food. If you went within 3-5 feet of their bowl, and it had food in it, then you're next place would be the hospital - this included the owners. THAT I have a problem with (and that is a sign of an owner who should learn more about dogs).