Feeding for Ultimate Health...
 

Hi all,
I would like everyone's ideas about feeding for the best development possible. For instance, I feed an adult dog kibble (Royal Canin & Taste of the Wild), as well as a few supplements recommended to help joints develop properly and delay onset of osteo-arthritis, as well as preventing developmental problems like Panosteitis.
I use Vitamin C, MSM and a supplement called InFlight Coat Formula which I swear by.
Every night I give a natural rawhide to help keep teeth clean.
Once or twice a week I give raw "soup bones" or chicken backs/necks washed in super-hot water first.
Also, I will give a tablespoon of plain full-fat yogurt or cottage cheese from time to time.
Luna has had soup bones but I have not given her a chicken neck yet...
I would love to hear what others have found to work for their CsV...

Feeding for the best development? Personally we do complete prey model raw, and I feel that is most species appropriate. But, I know it's not for everyone. So I won't preach about it. :)

In terms of kibble, I would not feed Taste of the Wild to a puppy, even though it is labeled as 'all life stages'.. the calcium to phosphorus levels are way too high for a developing puppy, especially one of large breed. In general for a large breed puppy you would want to keep Cals/Phos levels under 1.5% maximum; I have never fed Royal Canin so I don't have comments on that but the only grain free food I would feed as appropriate to puppies would be any line of Orijen excluding their new Red Meat line and their sister grain free line, Acana as their cals/phos levels are appropriate.

It is a myth that a puppy kibble is not appropriate for large breed puppies. Recent studies (I can cite them for you later, if you want) indicate that large and giant breed puppies should be kept on APPROPRIATE puppy kibble for up to 2 years. Sadly, most kibble, even though specifically marketed as puppy or all life stage are not always so - you have to read the guaranteed analysis yourself.

If you are feeding raw recreationally, keep in mind that exposed bone should never be fed to a dog. If you want to feed raw bones, the rule of thumb is that they must be meaty - ie., slathered in meat. This will help to cushion it as they chomp on it, and also in their stomachs. This is perhaps the single largest mistake people make when feeding bones and/or raw, and it contributes a lot to incidences of punctured stomachs, painful bowel movements and broken teeth.

In raw feeding we call these "raw meaty bones" or RMBs; Appropriate RMBs vary from dog to dog depending on jaw strength and size.

Little dogs can have drumstick, turkey or chicken necks, and chicken wings as appropriately sized RMBs, while larger dogs can have something like a pork hocks.

As for supplementation - I would supplement with a good Pacific Salmon oil. For any dog, really. Processed dog food and conventional grain fed meats don't contain nearly as much good fatty acids as they should.. a good Salmon supplement can make up for that.

Supposedly raw knuckle bones and raw rib bones are the best for keeping their teeth healthy. I've given my American Eskimo raw bones once every 2 weeks and his teeth are in puppy perfect condition. I started my CSV Ciara (Zahara od Uhosti) on raw bones as soon as I got her a few months ago and she absolutely loves them..... as well as all the deer, elk, sheep, goat and caribou bones we find around our house in the woods.

I had been feeding both my 1 year old male American Eskimo and Ciara high grade organic kibble for the longest time and I noticed that they usually always had diarrhea. One day I decided to switch them to an all raw food (dehydrated raw food as well as fresh raw meat and veggies) and within a day their stool became hard and since that very day (months ago) they haven't once had diarrhea.

I admit the cost of feeding them is more expensive than before, but why would I feed them anything else if I noticed an improvement in their health due to the new diet? I also supplement their diet with Nuvet plus vitamins and it certainly doesn't seem to hurt.

Raw is definitely not for me - not enough scientific studies on it - all of the preaching is anecdotal, and based on poor science. I also personally know several large and giant breed folks who have tried it and have had developmental issues - higher incidences of displaysia in formerly strong lines.
I don't feed puppy formulas due to the risk of Pano. I just don't want to take the risk. Too many large and giant breed friends of mine have had historical problems with it.
I mix TOTW with Royal Canin GSD formula - I don't like Orijen due to it's high protein content - higher protein has been linked to developmental issues in puppies, too, as well as the Cal-Phos ratio.
I am considering trying Royal Canin's GSD puppy formula (new to the market) and a Newfie breeder friend of mine swears by Royal Canin's Large Breed Puppy Digest & Osteo formula (has to be specially ordered though it is not a prescription diet) to start off her pups and follows up with Canidae ALS. She has not had Pano issues with this regimen.
I don't give any weight-bearing bones chicken bones - chicken necks and backs are pretty meaty and the bones scale their teeth better than any other raw pieces - that's the main reason I give it - poor man's dentistry!
The beef soup bones are not terribly meaty - the dogs eat the tissue covering the bone and the marrow inside. Once that is all done, I wash the bones, stuff them with peanut butter and freeze them for a "pupsicle" treat. Squeeze cheeze is good for that, too.
Here is south FL, another favorite is Pedialyte ice cubes to keep them hydrated.

Re: raw, all ya gotta do is think about the thousands of years before the advent of kibble which has only been around since '40s for proof.

That, and the fact that dogs are the same species as wolves. :)

It is not optimal for a dog to eat the equivalent of cereal in lieu of actual food for all its life IMHO.

But, if it's not for you, it's not.

Higher protein has not been linked to developmental problems; it is the high cals/phos traditionally in high protein diets that are responsible for that.

Here are some facts, quoted from a friend in English Mastiffs, that generally dispel the myths surrounding high protein:

"Taken from Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll
It is too little protein that will actually cause skeletal problems in growing puppies.

Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value"

Myth: I need to switch my large breed puppy to an adult food at 4-6 mos of age or else he will grow too fast and get a growth disorder.

Fact: (taken from the same source as above) Adult foods are often calorically less dense and have lower protein levels. Therefore, in order to get all that your puppy needs, you would need to feed more of the food. This causes an increase in the calcium levels, which could then result in a growth disorder.
Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium)."

Italics are direct quotes from the study.


Here's another:

http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.p df

"The common practice of feeding commercially available adult dog foods to puppies can also be detrimental. The broad category of adult canine maintenance foods contains diets with a wide range of nutrient profiles, caloric densities, and mineral contents. Some foods marketed for adult maintenance have passed AAFCO feeding tests for growth, but some have not."

"Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence."


"One common misconception is that commercially prepared premium dog foods contain excessive quantities of protein that may be detrimental to the growing larger breed dog by supporting too rapid a growth rate. This is not
confirmed by controlled research, and fortunately, support for this misconception is diminishing. Much of the research presented in this chapter
has been conducted in the growing Great Dane. Although this is obviously a non-sporting breed, its use as a model for other large breeds,
including the sporting breeds, is considered very appropriate due to its extremely rapid growth rate.
Growing Great Danes consuming diets with identical calorie content, but providing a broad range of dietary protein (31.6%, 23.1% or
14.6% protein), from weaning to 18 weeks displayed no evidence of protein effect on calcium metabolism or skeletal development.1,2 Changes
consistent with disturbed bone development were observed to be equally distributed across diet groups, indicating no specific effect of
dietary protein concentration. Although the high-protein diet did not promote any detectable negative effect on skeletal development, the
low-protein diet was considered only marginally sufficient for the growing Great Dane in these diets, providing approximately 3,600 kcal
metabolizable energy (ME)/kg of diet.

Body weight was significantly reduced in the dogs consuming the low-protein (14.6%) diet, relative to those fed the high-protein diet
(31.6%) at 13 and 15 weeks of age, while plasma albumin concentrations, which are important for good overall health, remained with the low-protein diet throughout the study. This demonstrates that the protein concentration typically incorporated into premium dog foods does not increase the manifestation of skeletal disease in the growing large breed dog, but that it is possible to reduce the dietary protein level
to a point where the provision of nutrients is marginal. When evaluating the dietary protein concentration, balance of the protein and energy
is the most important concern in commercial diets for growing large breed dogs."

http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.co...d/slibrary/Spo rting%20Dog_2002.pdf

"High dietary protein levels have long been implicated with
disturbances in the development of the skeleton in growing
dogs resulting in disabling conditions like osteochondrosis
and elbow dysplasia.Both in breeder and laymen discussions,
but also amongst veterinarians, this myth was communicated
without any scientific substantiation."

"Research concerning growth and calcium metabolism in
giant and small breed dogs has lead to the conclusion
that giant and large breed dogs are more prone to
disorders of the skeletal development compared to small
breed dogs if they consume a high calcium content
food1,14"

http://www.eukanuba-scienceonline.co...eding_high.pdf


A paper from University of Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical school, one of the leading veterinary schools in the nation:

"Why Have We Chosen to Keep the Reduced Protein Myth?

The myth has been maintained even in the past decade
despite negative scientific evidence because the dogma has
persisted about its value for the past 40 years. If we as professionals
are uncertain about the facts concerning a controversy,
we are likely to put ourselves in someone else’s
hands who appears to have authority. Power to command
this authority is in the hands of commercial advertisements
that promote these special products with misleading messages.
Marketing is aggressively aimed at veterinarians and
owners alike. There is a profit motive for veterinarians to
sell these diets. The public has a nutritional mania and preoccupation
with diet in our society. Dietary change has assumed
the status of medical treatment using such terms as
intervention, maintenance, and correction. The profession
and the public do not appreciate that advertising claims
come without proof in the case of diets. Owners can easily
be enrolled to accept such diet change because they feel
they are involved in doing something constructive. Professional
responsibility has been lost in this case. The situation
can remind us that we are part of an uncritical profession
with little review or standards. When scientific proof fails
to justify a practice, a false myth may likely live on.
In conclusion, the continued existence of this false myth
about dietary protein is an uncomfortable reminder of the
lack of sophistication, lack of critical thought, and reliance
on oversimplified and attractive dogma that persists in our
profession. This is only one example of many false myths,
misinformation, and partial truths that are repeated from
decade to decade. Until a more critical approach with standards
and oversight are brought to bear in our profession,
we will likely continue to be ensnared in false myths despite
the presence of sound science.
References"

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

Though dogs and wolves are the same species, dogs are technically a sub-species. A sub species that evolved eating our refuse, scavenging carcasses and latrine areas.
If the raw folks REALLY want to get back to basics - to the food that dogs evolved on, they would take them to the local dump. That's what dogs evolved eating.
Instead raw folks use pristine cuts of meat (in the wild, dogs eat the diseased, dying or very young prey, rife with worms), etc.... the real wild diet includes DUNG, hair, hide, antlers, developing eggs, rotten fruit, entire digestive tracts of large prey animals or the ENTIRE small prey animal, beaks, feathers, feet... they eat MAYBE once or twice a week. Real wild dogs and wolves do not have their hips checked. They have worms of all kinds. Intestinal, heart, et al. They are not expected to exceed 5 years, if they are lucky.
We have created a sub-species far removed from the wolf and I do not think there is any way to really feed dogs what they evolved eating. And feeding them like wolves is not necessarily in their best interests either. Wolves have a short life-span and not necessarily the best health.
Dog food companies have done tons of research to find out what the minimum requirements are. Again, I have not seen any long-term studies done on raw diets or any comparing them to commercial diets. Instead there are a ton of different raw schools of thought - as well as there are a ton of different commercial dog food recipes.
The lifespan and general health of wild dogs doesn't impress me as something to strive for. I want my dog worm-free and to live a long life. Certainly dogs nowadays greatly outlive their predecessors.
The folks that bash kibble ironically bash some of the "bad fillers" when, in reality, that's exactly what a dog would be eating in the wild - from feet to beaks to hair and feathers - and scavenging the dead, diseased and dying animals... so perhaps what goes into kibble *IS* closer to what dogs evolved eating than an "organic, grass-fed raw diet".....

Also, if I were so inclined, I can find studies that find the opposite conclusions of the ones you've quoted. Statistics are easily manipulated to support a point of view.
I am simply going on what I have personally seen in 17 years of dogs - my own, my friends' dogs, etc. That said, another point is EVERY DOG IS DIFFERENT so their metabolism is different too. Some dogs do better on one diet over another. I have tried just about every premium food on the market (as well as having tried raw back 10 years ago for about a year) and there are some whose recipe I like better but the bottom line is how my dogs do on the diet - it might be a better food according to experts, but if my dogs do not do well on it, it's worthless to me.
So I go by their coat, stool, energy level, muscle tone, mucous membranes, breath, scent and tartar build-up, if any. So far I have kept coming back to Royal Canin formulas time and time again as my dogs seem to do the best on it overall. I like Taste of the Wild's recipe, though, so I use that, too. I do not ascribe to feeding a dog just one kibble, I think that leads to potential gaps in nutrition.
And though some folks may say that large breed puppy food is OK, I am not willing to take that chance - I've been safe with what I've done so far and I am satisfied with that. I would feel so stupid if I tried a puppy formula and my dog came up with Pano - because I knew better!
So I am slow to change what I think is working just fine. If I see good reason to, I have no problem doing it, but otherwise I will stick with what works for my guys.

Raw asides, you asked for an opinion, I provided one, with studies.

Wolves have a short life-span in the wild due to factors beyond diet.. ask zoos and/or zookeepers.

Even if you don't trust raw, kibble is nothing more than more-convenient home-cooked (which people do too & that's cool too). And if you read the guaranteed analysis for kibble, you can match vitamin level for vitamin level, protein level for protein level, and mineral for mineral if you were to research and balance a raw diet. The USDA site provides nutrient breakdowns on all sorts of meats & cuts. Personally I don't need a study to show that eating fresh food (cooked or otherwise) is better than eating a cereal when done right.

Either way, the sources I posted apply to kibble & otherwise so there's no reason not to read them if you actually want to know more about current studies in feeding dogs.

(just read your most recent post - please post sources, I'd like to read it)

I did say "if I were so inclined" which I am not... :) takes too much work to dredge up other veterinarian's articles manipulating data to their point of view - plus, as I mentioned, a lot of it is my own experience and other dog friends' experiences that have influenced my decision.
And yes, I do want to know what others feed, whether it is raw or not, but I did not want a "raw vs kibble" debate - I think each camp is quite entrenched in their opinion, though I did want to point out that unless you are taking your dog to the city dump, it is not eating what it's ancestors did. :)
That's where I take exception to the argument that it's "better because it's more natural"...
I was totally grossed out by Luna eating all the sheep poo, she will also try to eat dead critters she finds (the deader, the better) but dogs have been DOMESTICATED... I don't want her worm-ridden and trying to kiss me with poo in her teeth.
For a semester in college I studied coyotes on Mount Desert Island in Maine. They ate anything, of course, and their scat was typically what we dog owners would term "blow-out diarrhea"... can't imagine I would want to mimic that diet and deal with the consequences in an urban environment.
But I do like a lively discussion and other people's take on the topic, and wonder if the raw folks encourage their dogs to eat poo like in the wild.

Dogs are opportunistic eaters - pretty much they'll eat anything even slightly edible, poop & antifreeze alike.

I don't think either poop OR antifreeze is optimal to their diet, although they will eat both. I would refrain from feeding the dog antifreeze, JMHO.

What they will eat and what they are physically built for are different, of course.

Either way, even when we fed kibble, we did not feed, say, Ol' Roy, even though they passed the same AAFCO standards as TOTW or otherwise. It is up to the human to read the ingredient label and pick the one most biologically appropriate.

A lot of us raw feeders do feed what is considered .. well, not optimal meat. We do accept road kill from wildlife services, as well as years old freezer burnt meat as freecycle. Dingos and other feral dogs will scavenge, they will also hunt & eat fresh meat.

Again RAW ASIDES, at the very least you should realize that protein level is not a concern when feeding dogs.. there is no safe upper limit when it comes to that. As well as safe calcium/phosphorus.. which adult food really is not suitable for.

Here's a Veterinarian who thinks it's better for your dog to eat poo and dead carcasses than a raw diet...
<shrug>
Not that I am particularly impressed by his opinion, as I think a healthy immune system and the stomach's hydrochloric acid should be sufficient to the task, but...
http://www.therapydogs.org/documents...Eat%20Poop.pdf

That's an article, but it cites no actual study. Yeah, dogs shed Salmonella et al in their feces on raw, but so do dogs on kibble.
BTW many of those links I posted are from one of those large food companies - Eukanuba, to be exact.

I do also remember reading that there certainly *IS* such thing as too much protein... just anecdotally, as a Vet Tech (I'll see if I can find any articles on it), high protein was always taken into account when it came to renal issues and Pano, among other things... Interestingly, a few years ago, there was quite a difference of opinion in "Senior" diet recipes - some insisted on lower protein due to it's affect on aging kidneys, stone formation, etc. - particularly in breeds prone to it like Dalmatians, where others promoted the idea of higher protein as older dogs have a tougher time assimilating protein (and their muscles get all stringy)...
And in the case of Dalmatians, for instance, Dal folks insist on low Protein diets as 100% of Dals have a uric acid production defect and protein in the diet ends up as sludge and then stones in the bladder. The lower the protein, the better, and most Dal folks I know prefer NON-ANIMAL protein sources, saying that in their experience, vegetarian diets seem to be better when it comes to the Uric Acid issue....
As an aside, the Dal folks DID introduce an English Pointer into select lines about 35 years ago (the Back Cross project) to introduce normal uric acid production genetics - they are not "recognized" by AKC even though they are 99.99% pure Dalmatian at this point - the purists consider them "mixes"... even though they are the only way to bring in the genetics to end the uric acid defect... talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

Re: renal failure & seniors - that was addressed in the UPenn article I posted already.


And Dals.. again, it's not protein level, but rather it's purines. Just that purines are extremely high in things like organ meats, commonly in high protein diets. So, no, our Dal friends cannot feed organs regularly as other raw feeders do. (Dal raw feeders are heavy on the white meat - low in purines - and substitute organs with supplemental vegetable shakes).


Dal breeders who don't believe in the backcross project.. sad... we know of the backcross project & friends with Dals have met dogs out of the backcross project and can't tell that they are mixed at all. :|

:) Again, my own anecdotal experience really does influence me more than a study. You know that old saying "should I believe you or my lying eyes?"...
I have a dog friend with both "pure" and BC Dals - no difference, well, actually, I think the BC Dals she has have better markings, technically, than the "pure" ones...
That's one thing about having a limited genepool that is worrisome. Nutrition aside, our basic building blocks are the genetics.
And as far as food goes, really - I use premium foods. I know lots of folks who have dogs with food allergies, intolerances, etc...
Not that I recommend brands like Ol' Roy, but I don't like to see food allergies/intolerances as "acceptable." A dog really should be able to eat anything. "Soy" is not a four-letter word! I don't like the idea of breeding dogs with such issues - immune-related, no doubt.
There are some recipes I wouldn't feed my dogs, but I also would be very wary of keeping dogs that need specialized diets in the gene pool. No better than a hothouse flower!
Certainly a wild dog/wolf with a food allergy would be weeded out of the gene pool...

Reasonable opinion.. but my take on it is that dogs should be able to eat everything biologically appropriate. To me, it's odd when a dog is allergic or sensitive or a meat-based protein.

But it is not in a dog to eat soy or corn syrup or corn. Just like it is not in us to eat grass, though cows can do it fine with their multiple stomach. In fact it's not even really in humans to eat corn (eat a lot of corn on the cobs and you'll see why.. :|)

Cellulose as in plant matter is just not something that a dog's comparatively short digestive track is equipped to break down. Their teeth don't lend pre-digestion grinding. Our English Mastiff friend fed her dog a whole strawberry once and no joke, it popped out the other side pretty much undigested :shock: :oops:

But, no, seriously raw asides, I do think that you are a reasonable person. When you have time, give the articles a read over, .. they apply to kibble too (we fed kibble and we aren't against it.. it is just like cereal to us and we do sometimes feed it still). Even if you think that all of these things are opinions and can be written to reflect whatever viewpoint they believe in.. ;-)

Originally posted by yukidomari :

"But it is not in a dog to eat soy or corn syrup or corn. Just like it is not in us to eat grass, though cows can do it fine with their multiple stomach. In fact it's not even really in humans to eat corn (eat a lot of corn on the cobs and you'll see why.. :|)"


This is completely correct !

I agree also to yuki´s other postings - of course meaty bones and raw food is better than artifical man- made kibbles...

It can not really be a question, i think.

May be only for sick dogs, i mean sick by desease as well as sick by genetics , you can have a real reason to feed an artifical food .

I did ask my veterinarian if he think this food was good for Hronec as a puppy, He tolled me NO definitely not, that food is for GSD and all health problem it has whit bad bone and fur. Hronec looks healthy and has good fur and bone structure...

He recommended a high quality puppy food and feeding of raw meat bones as extra diet.

But I mix meat into the food to and egg, omega 3, olive oil, and sometimes my own food...

In Sweden I think dog kibble is kind of new, I think it goot very popular here as late as in 1980.

Best regards / Mikael

I don't think there would be as many issues with tainted meat if we processed it ourselves. I personally strive to buy my meat locally from farms who let their animals free-range as I don't think it's natural to feed cows corn/grain their whole lives when their stomachs aren't even made for digesting it properly. I see no issues with feeding my dog meat that was personally acquired from a reliable source vs feeding it meat from an unknown/questionable source in a supermarket. My mother and her parents all raised their own food and they couldn't be healthier individuals. I hope to in the next year practice more of what I preach and start growing all my food and acquiring my meat through hunting- as it is a more sustainable and natural way of living.

I like puppy food whit high meat % if I only are to feed kibble.
I think this ones are good, and wonder what you all think about them, as I’m no expert on pet food.

I’m probably going to feed my next puppy kibble mix whit meat, and maybe then "Magnussons pet food" will be a little bit to mush of the good ???

When Hronec was young I fed him "Purina pro plan large athletic lamb and rice" mixed whit meat and when he was 24 month I changed it to "Hill’s lamb and rice" because of that it was more lamb in it and he did not need puppy food no more.

But fore the moment I feed a basic kennel food that I mix whit about 60 % meat = deer, wild pig, pig, lamb, chicken, cow

.................................................. .....

Anyway, what do you all think about this puppy food…

Purina pro plan large athletic >>> http://www.purina-proplan.com/eu/uk/dog/puppyLargeBreedAthletic.asp

Hill’s puppy food large breed >>> http://www.hillspet.co.uk/adult/products/product.aspx?pid=4&packform=Bag&sc_lang=en-GB

Magnussons Puppy Pet Food >>> http://www.hundmat.com/en/complete-food-meat-a-biscuit/15

Very best regards / Mikael

.................................................. .......

Hronec whit half a lamb front on 2,8kg, that is "Feeding for Ultimate Health" I think :rock_3

http://forumbilder.se/images/573201063842P6c60.jpg

Originally posted by Mikael :

"Hronec whit half a lamb front on 2,8kg, that is "Feeding for Ultimate Health" I think :rock_3 "

Hey Mikael - in my next life i want to become your dog ...is this still possible ??:grins


http://forumbilder.se/images/573201063842P6c60.jpg

Well, Luna got her first taste of raw today (to start, she got two chicken necks) - she loved them. I've only seen one other dog take to raw food faster than she did (Suki- a rescue malinois we fostered for a while, she DOVE into her crate when we had raw for them). I gave her two more necks and she ate them pretty well, too.

I guess she liked them! (The rest of the dogs got backs).

We feed our dog almost exactly like you do, Mikael. Purina Pro Plan (Athletic Breeds lamb and rice) or Salmon for a change + about 20 dkg of raw meat of varions kinds + meaty bones or turkey necks + some of our food: cottage cheese, egg from time to time, some vegetables and fruit.
When we were X-raying her for HD/ED I asked the vet to check her blood and the results were perfect.

We found it funny that our dogs enjoys coffee with milk, but Margo says it's common that wolfdogs tend to like everything their owners do.8)

Mikael, if you lived closer, we could swap meats. I need some deer/venison. :) I can trade you for fur-on whole rabbit, feathered quail, beef, lamb or pork.

There is some balancing involved for 100% raw, but the general rule of thumb is meat/bone/organ in the ratio of 80/10/10, half of the organ being liver, the other half another secreting organ like thymus, kidney or brain (roughly emulates a whole animal).. and roughly half of the meat being red meat for the myoglobin content. It's not a hard rule.. think about how you feed yourself, it's like that.

Certainly not everyone picks raw but just to put this out there in regards to raw not being appropriate, not being proven, etc, there is certainly commercial raw in the states now that has passed AAFCO standards as being complete & balanced, same standards as for dry pet foods.. for all the pet parents who are concerned about it not being balanced. (Nature's Variety, Stella & Chewy, Honest Kitchen, Ziwipeak et al). Course, these companies also jack up the price.. Ziwipeak is about $22 for I believe 3lbs.

Many friends have eased into do-it-yourself raw through the use of the above - we did.

I am also pro-kibble if a person chooses to do kibble. But, at the very least I will never use a kibble that uses ethoxiquin as a chemical preserver, or menadione (synthetic K3).. both substances severely limited in human foods for toxicity but for some reason widely used in pet foods.

And a last bit.. high protein foods like EVO or Orijen have dry-matter meat percentage of ~40%. While this seems high, in reality if this food had the same ratio of water as raw meat, it would be equivalent in protein ratio. This is the same reason why balanced wet dog foods usually have about 7% - 10% protein content, because of the water weight, yet a dry dog food with 7% to 10% protein content would not pass AAFCO standards.

:lol: cool and funny that we feed about 90% the same food :)

Best regards / Mikael

Very interesting, because it seems like at least outside of the US, people use kibble sort of like a supplement & mix.

This is the same in Japan, actually... people do buy the most popular kibbles but almost everyone also home cooks for their dogs and mixes it together. This is how my mother-in-law's dog was fed for all its life, and it lived until it was 17 years old.

:lol: Sorry I live in Sweden and al ready have to much lamb and fur ;-) :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

:shock: Ooooo 17 years I can only hope Hronec will be that old, but my Australian Cattledog got to be 14,7 years old on this kind of feeding :) But I gave him a little bit les meat and more of my own food.

Best regards / Mikael

Too much lamb?! :shock: Is there such a thing????

maybe we're living in the wrong area.......... /jealous/

:lol: Ha ha, I do not know about your next life, but if you can trail and bark you are welcome at any time :p And the raw food is on me ;) :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

:p When you have a full freeze box and have to ask you parents if you can put some food in there’s, than you have to much of all, even lamb :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

If you were in the US I'd take some off your hands! :)

We have an extra freezer for the dogs' stuff alone... but even then, I'm not sure there is such thing as way too much (I just asked my dogs, they agreed). ;-)

I'd love to get an extra freezer for things like buying chicken backs and necks in bulk etc.. but we don't have the room and in south Florida you have a real chance that you may lose your power for a few days duye to hurricanes (although we haven't had any big ones since Wilma in 2005 - knock on wood). Luckily, our fridge is a side-by-side so the freezer is larger than the average one (and the fridge part is smaller).

Interesting tidbits. I have a friend who swears by olive oil in the diet, too. There are some folks who also ascribe to "regional" diets - i.e. feeding Scottish breeds oats and mutton which they would've eaten as they were developed in their country of origin.
Luna has noshed on soup bones and today had her first chicken necks. She tore into them. I have no issue using some raw stuff to supplement from time to time - I am paranoid about "gaps" as I think that there is no way kibble forever totally meets every dog's every need. Whole foods do help assimilate trace vitamins/minerals - things like C break down quickly in prepared foods.
Having studied coyotes in the wild myself, they are very omnivorous whether or not they can digest fruits well or not, they certainly do eat them. Coyotes are the bane of watermelon farmers in NJ! They are known to raid a patch and leave a horrible mess.
The coyotes living in urban areas, like the ones in NYC's Central Park, are fascinating - to me, that's likely how dogs domesticated themselves...

Hey Lunas Mom. I feed a high quality kibble, lamb & rice or venison & rice [Canidae or taste of the wild usually] and mix in at times cooked brown rice, canned pumpkin, teaspoon of olive oil, nutritional yeast, yogurt or a scrambled egg. He'll eat just dry kibble but I think that must get boring day after day so I try to mix it up.
My boyfriend and I are both vegetarians so we never have meat in our fridge but I'll get him a meat treat from time to time since he does love it! [He ate a whole ham once!]
I don't use many supplements for my CsV.. I did more for my GSD [MSN/Glucosemine/Missing Link etc.] I have used Psyllium seed husk, a powder called 'K9 immune dog' and salmon oil from time to time but Flint seems perfectly healthy, great coat, great movement, happy and healthy on his diet alone.
I still give him bones to chew but never rawhides. They gave him very bad diarrhea and he ate them so fast I was worried about intestinal/throat blockage.
His favorite treat though are fruits and veggies! He LOVES tomatos, baby carrots, spinach, olives, apples, watermelon, blackberries, pickles etc.!! :roll:

For those that think dogs can benefit off vegetables & fruits, there is BARF model (contrast to prey model), too. Lots of choices.

Unlike cats which are obligate carnivores, dogs are pretty much opportunistic carnivores. They'll eat most anything they can get their paws on, but their bodies are still built optimally for meat. From time to time the dogs get veggies & fruits here too.. but as a recreational treat, not as a main part of their diet. :D

Originally posted by yukidomari :

"Unlike cats which are obligate carnivores, dogs are pretty much opportunistic carnivores. They'll eat most anything they can get their paws on, but their bodies are still built optimally for meat. From time to time the dogs get veggies & fruits here too.. but as a recreational treat, not as a main part of their diet. :lol:"

Yeah, that´s again exactly the point ... !

You need only have a look at the teeth of cat compared to dogs and you see the difference - cats are much more specialized in being carnivores.

Or for example take bears - and compete the teeth of a brown bear to those of a polar bear. You can notice easily that polar bear is highly specialized meat- eater and in the opposite brown bear are much more omnivorus.

The last molar teeth in the jaws of dogs have also a form to enable them to consume vegetables too.
But the rest of teeth are all those of a typical carnivorus animal.

Nice weekend to everyone here !

I see a lot of you mix dry food and meat :roll: But this can cause a gastritis for your dog. Just for digesting raw meat a stomatch has to be much more "sour" than for the dry food. I feed Brukne only raw bony meat, organs, sea fish since she was 5 months and i am really happy about this kind of feeding (especially when I have to pick her poo when walking :lol:), she also sometimes gets a mixture of curd, kefir, raw egg, some oil (linseed or olive) and honey 8)
At the moment my freezer is full of... boar 8) Brukne is happy 8)

Just curious- how much food should a 5-6month old Vlcak get? I feed the recommended amount, but it seems that my puppy still remains on the skinnier side- although it seems that this breed is more of a skinny/lanky breed in puppyhood (more so than other dog breeds). Currently I'm feeding her a raw food (meat, bones and organs) and de-hydrated raw food diet along with vitamins. How much weight a week should she be gaining during this period? What month in her life will see the greatest weight gain? How much should a female Vlcak weigh when she's 5-6 months old? I'd appreciate everyone's advice!

Well, a skiny dog is always better than a fat one. Have you tried not measuring the food - just giving the amount a young dog wants to eat? If he has a sense of "enought" (mine doesn't), this could be the answer :) I am speaking about raw meat diet in this case.

Like this :lol: ???

http://forumbilder.se/images/e56201092739Pe91b.jpg

Best regards / Mikael

Well 8) If the amount of bone and meat changes places in this photo... this would be just perfect :rock_3

Where from do you take these photos? :D

The Wolfdog.org gallery´s ;-) But I use the F5 method on the front page to view as many "photo of the moment" as possible in one minute :lol: Just press F5 and you get a new photo :)

But that one I had in my computer from before...

Best regards / Mikael

Hah hah, if I let her eat as much as she wanted she'd explode! :0)

:D
Just try it once or twice. People say, that when dog knows there will always be plenty of food, he doesn't try to eat EVERYTHING as fast as possible anymore ;) And you start to know how much a dog exactly needs (again - talking about RAW, not dry food or mixed way of feeding).

Its very funny (and sad same time) to read this discussion. Lunas Mom ask about the best feeding and when get a answer, that best one is raw, then argumentate, why is it not true.
I feeding my all dogs (CsW only) only raw and I dont see any problem. And raw get by me just puppy about 3 weeks old. I never used industrial produced food. My oldest - Nancy have just 13 years and no problems.
For info, my dogs eating
1. Full chicken (means really full, incl feathers, head, legs etc.)
2. Ostrich stomachs, heads and feets (some time whole ostrich)
3. Raw eggs, vegetable and fruits
4. Some times rests from kitchen as well

You are happy you can get full chicken... I kind of envy you :? But we still give Brukne chicken heads, feet (very healthy for joints), just no featthers :D
Pavel, and how do you prepare vegetables? A lot of dogs eat whole carrots, apples, tomatos etc., but it is said that if you want your dog to assimilate the vegetables, they should be mashed into piure or boiled a little. So :roll: I am too lazy to prepare separate meals for my dog - only sometimes I add a handful of spinach into her sour milk. And the uncleaned cow's stomatch is a good substitute for vegetables :)

In this case i completely agree to what Pavel wrote before !

The only strange thing for me is... "(some time whole ostrich)"...;)

How and where can one get a whole ostrich ??? Are you living next to a Zoological garden or an ostrich - farm , dear Pavel ?

And how long time does one dog feed on it , until the whole ostrich is completely eaten ? An Ostrich is weighting up to 120 kg ....:lol:

People grow ostrich for meat :roll: So it is possible to get the parts that are not used anymore or if the whole bird doesn't suit for people's food for some reasons :roll:

Originally posted by Vaiva:

"People grow ostrich for meat :roll: So it is possible to get the parts that are not used anymore or if the whole bird doesn't suit for people's food for some reasons :roll: "

Of course i know this. But this was not the question - i´m wondering how one can get , transport and feed a whole ostrich to his dogs...

(May be he ment only young ostrichs..?:lol:)

I´m curious on Pavel´s answer here...

Where do you live, Silvester? Metropolis?:lol::lol::lol:

Did you never order a 1/4 or a 1/2 cow from a farmer? There´s no problem to get the meat home from the butcher - all you need is a station waggon :lol::lol::p

And if the ostrich stinks a bit after some time: what an amuse-gueule for the dogs :mdrmed

Just remembered a funny story :)
At dog shows we all can see that most of the dog lovers are women, Lithuania is not an exception. Also among people feeding their dogs raw meet there are a lot of women. And once a very elegant red haired lady, owing Irish setters, got a... rabbit. With all the coat on. I am not sure now why she wanted to take the coat of, but she did. And on the dog owner's forum she asked, how she should do it. And the advise was to pump the rabbit with air - the coat then separates from the body. Imagine an elegant lady in a yard of BLOCK HOUSES, pumping the rabbit with a pomp for car's tires :rock_3
Yes, she DID it 8)

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

Yes, women can .... :biggrina:lol:

Originally Posted by Angelika http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif
"Where do you live, Silvester? Metropolis?:lol::lol::lol:

Did you never order a 1/4 or a 1/2 cow from a farmer? There´s no problem to get the meat home from the butcher - all you need is a station waggon :lol::lol::p

And if the ostrich stinks a bit after some time: what an amuse-gueule for the dogs :mdrmed"

Hmmm....I´m sorry, no , i never ordered a quarter or half of a cow from a farmer - may be i´m living in a more civilized part of Germany, who knows...:):rock_3;-)

But I´m still waiting for the answer of Pavel ...

Mostly fruits must be not prepared. dogs likes it so, how is growing (poor our appeltree and plum-tree :)
Same is by vegetables. But many times i mash vegetables with joghurt or sour milk and its a very lovely "energy drink" for my dogs as well .

Near Prague si a special ostrich slaghter house, where I get similary rests like you from chicken. And because by transport very seldom, but sometimes ostrich die, then I can get him. Its a whole story, which can be in first moment for many people very couriously :D

In our raw feeding circles the general rule of thumb for feeding puppies is to feed 2-3% by weight of the projected ADULT weight. And adjust accordingly to individuals. Not having had a Vlcak yet, I can't tell you what the adult weight really should be, but even if I had one, all dogs are different. The correct and optimal weight for any dog of any breed is one where you can feel their ribs ever so slightly when you touch their sides without pushing much at all. Lots of breeds have the 'lanky ugly puppy stage'... way too much legs without an adult coat yet, makes for a funny looking dog. ;)

In my experience with other breeds in general though, pups usually grow up first and then outwards, some taking up to 2 years to fill out completely.

Certainly :lol: .... with meat from the supermarket :shock:8)
Very civilized indeed :rock_3

Bye
Angelika

Well, Brukne also knows best what is good for her. Canaby leaves :roll: (my friends parents have bees and some of these plants always grow in their garden ,because they use them for some bee-thing :D). Also blackberries in a wood. She picks them with her lips and looks like a bear then. And she roles on blackberries too, and her neck becomes purple. She also knows wich mushrooms can be eaten raw (like russule).

You are a lucky person, Pavel :)

Angelika, I also live in a very civilized part of Lithuania - 5min by feet from the old-town of Vilnius (capital of Lithuania). Just I am not so ritch to buy kidney or liver in a supermarket, but I have time to get it from other places 8)

Yes, i´m sure - it is more civilized and cultivated where i live ....!:lol:;)

Bye again, dear. I never knew how to handle people without any humo(u:mrgreen:)r.

Hey "Angie" - you didn´t see the smilies :lol:;) ????

May be YOU are the one with a lack of humour - or of understanding :shake ?

Ok, it´s not worth talking about any more.

When he was a puppy, I fed my dog Royal Canin (German Shepherd puppy/junior). He kept diarrhea and redness/itch in the groin. According to my vet, he was possibly sensitive to grain or other ingredients in the kibble.

After an examination of the kibble ingredients i discovered that there are very much "meat substitutes" and various fillers in it, but very little meat (as with almost all kibble brands). The abundantly present cereals for example are a cheap source of protein but of different quality than animal protein.

I decided to start feeding him a complete & balanced raw meat brand when he was about 10 months. Almost immediately an incredible result. Diarrhea gone (immediatley), very little poo, redness/itch in the groin disappeared within a week, he got a beautiful coat, chalk white teeth... I combine it with chicken necks, salmon carcasses (with a thick layer of meat between the bones), raw eggs, smashed green beans / tomato, green tripe, sometimes kitchen scraps and sheep ribs.

Every time it's a feast for him, he's just doing fantastic on it. Costs nor any effort neither much money. "Suum cuique", but for me this is feeding for ultimate health.

I wish I had the time, energy, and refrigerator/freezer space to feed raw. I know better than to think I'm that ambitious, and that knowledgeable, to feed a balanced, nutritious diet. :lol: I feed our dog Natural Balance grain free kibble, and mix two different types together to give him more protein sources. Usually I'll do duck and lamb or venison, so there's a white and a red meat. He also gets Natural Balance meat roll, which I love, because it has all sorts of organ meats in it.

I think eventually I'll switch him over to EVO, though, because I like the ingredients better, Natural Balance isn't quite so "balanced" as they'd like you to believe. ;)

But, yeah, if I thought I could manage it, I think raw is definitely the best way to go. That way you know exactly what your dog is eating. I don't even cook that well for MYSELF though!! :lol:

Just a heads up but Natura, EVO's parent company, just got brought out by Proctor and Gamble, parent company of IAMs.

Not sure how long the quality is going to last under them.. and dog food manufacturers are not obligated to reflect ingredient changes for 6 months. :(

I found it odd that the Natural Balance rolls have sugar as an ingredient (or corn syrup, something like that) in it. For that reason we never fed it when we used to do kibble (we were on Orijen/Ziwipeak/Honest Kitchen), even as a treat.

hi :lol:

i find my csv does best with a raw meaty bones diet and fish4dogs kibble (not in the same meal)
layla.:lol:

Well crap. :( I'm surprised that a company that's so concerned about quality would be bought out like that. I guess I'll have to keep an ear open to people talking about changes. That's one of the reasons I want to switch from Natural Balance, is ingredient changes. The foods I'm feeding have bumped up the potato half of the ingredients, pushing the meat parts down a tad. Dogs don't need all that starch!

My cat's already ON EVO, I really hope they don't mess with it! If not, though, the awesome store where I get it has a great staff that keeps up to tabs on all this stuff, I'm sure they'll have a good alternative. I just hate going through the process of switching foods. :roll:


Oh, also, here's the ingredient list for the Lamb meat rolls that we feed Buddy:

I see Sucrose in there, is that what you mean? Regardless, there's a noticeable difference in Buddy when we run out and he doesn't have it for awhile, so I'm pretty sure it's doing him good. :)

Christmas food for a Wolfdog :0)
 

Frozen Pig Filé in the Kennel Yard at X-mas

http://laddauppbilder.se/?di=16129327729713
Hronec Taabernakkelin, Happy X-mas

http://laddauppbilder.se/?di=9129327779014
Rasty z Molu Es, Happy X-mas

And Merry X-mas to ALL CsV and CsV owners :santagrin

/ Mikael

Whole animals...
 

Hey Mikael , merry Christmas to you and to all other people here of course first of all !

My Csw "Zeus Lupus Ibericus" gets also nearly only raw food, sometimes whole animals like rabbits, hares or chicken - he likes that kind of food as much as the bones which i regularly get from a hunter who´s a friend of mine in a nearby village.

We are having a little Christmas controversy here...;):lol:
Could somebody tell me if occassional giving bits of ham - not on regular basis, but remains of human meals, is really that harmful for our csvs? I know pork should not be given to dogs, but is close to being poisonous, like e.g. raisins, or just only unhealthy, like for humans? :rock_3

You shouldn´t feed untested raw pig meat because of the Aujetzky Virus. Smoked or cooked ham is no problem.

Thanks, that's what I thought :)

The photos look´s like 100% natural BARF :p

You must hawe very Happy Wolfdogs 8)

Merry Christmas / Mikael

Supermarket pork (at least in from the US) are fine. The doses of deworming and antibiotics given to the pigs deal with the majority of cases of Trichinosis infection. Wild pig and boar is another matter (bear, also).

In Sweden the veterinarian say "just do not feed raw chicken"
But I mostly feed raw deer, pig, lamb that has bean frozen for at least 6 month.

but from time to time I feed pig + pig parts that has bean frozen just for about 14 days...

If I feed wild pig, it is tested by a laboratory first ;)

Best regards / Mikael

PS, Jing, I like your new avatare :) Puppy on the way 8), DS

Dementi...!
 

Originally posted by Mikael:
"You must have very Happy Wolfdogs 8)"

Hey Mikael - thank you for compliment ...I do my very best !

But - i only own ONE wolfdog, sorry.;-)

And in connection with the discussion here about raw pig´s meat I´d like to say , that I know here in Germany during more than the last ten years there were not one case of Aujetzky Virus found / proofed.

But of course it CAN happen here or in other places /countries and so I agree to the statement of Ina Eichhorn. Why take a risk which is not needed and can be avoided easily ?

Best greetings to everyone !

Uli alias Silvester

Anyway we do have Aujetzky in wild pigs and Rona lives in Poland, I don´t know the situation there.
There have been two dead hunting dogs after a hunt on wild pigs in Austria, they did only get contact with blood, they didn´t eat any parts.

Neither do I :( But it's better to cautious than sorry. It has never occured to me to feed my dog regularly on pork, or to give her unboiled poultry. :|

New Study of Large & Giant Breed Puppy Development & Nutrition
 

If anyone is interested, I was recently forwarded a new study from Royal Canin regarding Large/Giant Breed Puppy Development & Nutrition.
If you would like me to forward the info to you, fell free to email me: [email protected]

1/3 Dry food and 2/3 meat whit fat....

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._7441016_n.jpg

I'm interested in reading this new study! Can you PM me the link?