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Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?
Hi all,
I am sure I am opening a can of worms by bringing this topic up, but I strongly believe that only transparency and honesty in breeding will help us improve our breed... I would like to know what has happened in regards to the "Mutara" dogs? There is not a whole lot of "official" information (at least in English) can find on the subject - and most of the information I do have is subjective - statements on this forum that may or may not be accurate or true. From what I can gather, at some point in the last few years, a GSD mix and a North American wolf were bred, with the intent to expand our gene pool. This seems to have happened in an Italian kennel, with the pups registered as Vlcaks and later shown and titled as such. Though I do agree that sometimes new blood needs to be brought in for certain breeds' gene pools (here in the U.S. the Basenji and Canaan dog folks have brought dogs in from their native countries without papers to widen gene pool) I can't imagine why it would be a MIX (better to use a papered, pure-bred GSD to be able to trace lineage, I would think) and a North American Wolf (weren't the Carpathian wolves selected as they have better character traits than the NA wolves?)??? Most of the posts I found were dated 2003 - it's 7 years later - what has happened? Officially? And in Reality? As a fancier and consumer, if you will, I would not want a Mutara or anything even close. Too much "unknown" for me. I want a REAL, pure Vlcak, with a history I can trace back to it's inception, and see for myself the dogs Karel Hartl himself chose to breed together. I want a VLCAK, not a wolf hybrid... |
Maybe this Google translation can help you :roll: ???
>>> http://translate.google.com/translat...&sl=auto&tl=en Very best regards / Mikael |
Wolfdog.org Admin did write this in the past...
COPY from Wolfdog.org ... "We do not advertise here kennels: - which mix and register Saarloos-Czechoslovakian Wolfdog mixes - which use lines where appear the offsprings of the mix Dark (priv. Locchi) who was registered by ENCI with the false parents names. And it doesn't matter in ANY GENERATION the dog will appear - which own and use for breeding the nonbreeds know as Mutaras (Ave Lupo ---Mutara--, Audrey Lupo ---Mutara--- and Ares Lupo ---Mutara---) - which own and/or use for breeding any nonbreeds and their offsprings comming from the S- Passo del Lupo litter: Selly Passo del Lupo, Sakim Passo del Lupo, Sam Passo del Lupo, Sangria Passo del Lupo, Sanika Passo del Lupo and Seiko Passo del Lupo. REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officialy BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!! Because it is not possible to count with the national kennel clubs and for example ENCI seems nothing wrong in registering mutts as purebreed dogs it was needed to make additional steps and protect the CzW genepool. So NONE of these dogs and NONE of their offsprings will EVER be registered by the breed club in Slovakia (and also Czech breed club) and it will be not ALLOWED to import or breed ANY offsprings of these dogs EVEN if the nonbredd will be in 20-, 30 or 100- generation…" End of copy ... Best regards / Mikael |
I asked the Slovak Czechoslovakian Wolfdog club about the copy obowe and where they stand officially in this matter in 2009 and got this answer…
"The dogs you mentioned are banned officially, but not mentioned by name - the official ban says that dogs, whose paretnage is not known precisely up to the year 1989 (when the breed was officially recognized) is not considered CSV and therefore cannot be used in breeding." / Slovak Czechoslovakian Wolfdog club. I also show the copy above and asked the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Check breeders club of there opinion and got this answer… "Dogs with unclear origin are not used for breeding in the Czech Republic of course. We are closely connected with Slovak breeders club and we cooperate. We are ready to cooperate with other breeders clubs..." / Check breeders club .................................................. ................................ Best regards / Mikael |
So it's 7-8 years later - what happened to the dogs? Did they reproduce? Are any of the offspring registered legally or illegally?
Is there a chance of these mutara dogs getting into our bloodlines? |
I´m no Mutara expert but I can try to answer as good as I can ;-)
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Lupina did pass away in 2008. Quote:
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Best regards / Mikael |
So, in effect, these bloodlines will not be a threat to our breed? My concern is, as I am a novice, that I might have USED or BOUGHT a Mutara without knowing any better as it isn't something that is OBVIOUS. How would someone be able to prevent such a mistake?
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Very shortly info - Mutaras are banned in CZ and SK. They reproduce illegaly (mostly under other names - e.g. Alaska) in Italy. More you can found in database.
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In Italy, for sure, we are at the third generation of mutara. Those three generation have a "green" pedigree. From The next generation on, maybe they are already born (i don't know), the new puppies will have a normal pedigree. So, if you don't want mutara's blood in your pup you have to study his pedigree. My opinion on the loss of informations is that maybe it will be better if they will be registred in Database (I hope the owners of new generations will do it), because it could be difficult to identify them in the future, but of course it is just an opinion, i don't intend to polemize.
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Will they be able to be registered in CZ or SK when they have a "normal" pedigree?
I totally agree with the idea that a list of mutaras be maintained in order to prevent registration of any mutara descendants as CsV - otherwise it would be possible to eventually register them in CZ or SK, right? I mean, Luna's pedigree, for instance, goes back 8 generations to foundation stock - wolves and GSD. Once the mutara descendants get to that point, how could you find out if they are not pure? |
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Even after the mixes will get "normal" pedigrees it doesn't matter for us: because some national kennel clubs are not able to guaranty the quality of their pedigrees and allow to register as CzWs even dogs with 0% of CzW blood ("Alaska", Mutaras, aso) we decided to base on the direction of the breed clubs in the origin countries and to ban Mutaras and ALL their offsprings. They are mixes of unknown origin and will be treated by us as any kind of mixes. |
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My opinion is that it is a war not so easy to fight, i've seen a Q-Mutara many times, people (common people, they are the market, they don't study four lines of pedigree's generation) likes him and he is not even the best of the litter.. when they will be use in breeding they will have no problem to sell the puppies. The mutara's line is a line that you can avoid (but just if you have informations) but it is not more a line that you can destroy.. Terrorism about mutara will not bring anything good, talk about them, write articles about them, study them will bring consciousness and opinions. I say that, my opinion, with all the gratitude I have for this website and his Database, not to criticize or polemize. |
In Slovakia can´t be used for breeding Mutaras and their children too. I hope after czech conferention (14 days later) here will be the same. If other countries (clubs) will have the same conditions, Mutaras will be "closed" in Italy.
Unfortunatelly- only in a few countries are breeding clubs for wolfdogs. |
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All information we received about these mixes comes from private people and official registries. So we will have the exact information about all lines and kennels "infected" by the Mutara blood also in the future. Quote:
Are they informed that no even one GOOD breeder will use their dogs and their offsprings EVER? Of they are just cheated? Sure that they get a PURE BREED dog? Quote:
But nobody want to destroy the dogs. Just ask the Mutara-offospring owners to re-register them to the proper breed: they should be registered by your kennel club as Saarloos Wolfdogs. They simply do not have any thing common with our breed. Mutaras are Saaloos alike crossing with blod of Malamute, Shepherd and some unknown dogs. And they offsprings can be compared to Saarloos-CzW-something crosses. |
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They are mutts, that's true... but they do have a pedigree, they can take part to a lot of events here, how many Italians go abroad to take part to a club activity? not so many.. How many search for a foreign stud? not so many.. Indeed I have not enough competences to give my contribute to this topic so I leave it to the expert as it should be. My line is to have as much informations as I can about who has those dogs, where they are and what is their names. I hope everyone will find those information here also in the future. |
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So who, exactly, registers these Mutara dogs? If there is no where to register them, then it isn't so good to produce them - people who buy dogs want papers, so if there are no official papers, there is no money.
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ENCI = Ente Nazionale della Cinofilia Italiana = Italian Kennel Club. I´m not from Italy so please correct me if I´m wrong :roll: Best regards / Mikael Quote:
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Well here in the United States there are more registries than just the AKC (American Kennel Club) - for instance, there is "APRI" (American Pet Registry Incorporated) they would register mutts - they don't care, as long as there is money involved. But real dog people know that APRI is ridiculous.
APRI would not be a registry recognized or respected by any other kennel club. Is ENCI a respected kennel club? Are the dogs able to be registered in countries other than Italy? If it all just stays in Italy then it's not a big deal... |
My understanding...
The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed. Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise. |
Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right?
I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists. In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies... So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest. My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters... |
Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers ;).
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Responsibility
The key word in....."Responsible Breeder" is..... "responsible". Europe has always done things differently than we have... ENCI is Italy's AKC. 4 of 5 of my dogs are ENCI registered. All 5 are FCI listed. You have to do your homework with this or any other "breed" to keep what you believe to be good and true as such. Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs. Every day I see a "border patrol issue" which makes me all the more stoked, because that is what these guys are for! They are not exactly the Disney promoted "family pet" which we have engraved into our imaginations, but they ARE loyal, loving, and DETERMINED to do things (trained or not). I strongly feel the need to jackhammer this into the heads of all the @#$^&s who keep e-mailing me. My first dog was a Beagle (we bred Beagles)... Aggression was an issue with ours. My second, a half Doberman-half Lab. (the best dog ever). I love my pack (and will do anything for their well-being), but I WILL NOT recommend them to just anyone.
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Have you ever spoken to any Italian Breeder?? Do you know , honestly, what the hell you are talking about?? Italy has the most breeders, they are in fact MANY. Does this mean they are ALL bad?? good lord...I feel like in a nursery sometimes. |
Short bad information for "Mutara lovers" :
Yesterday CZ conference of Club decided to put a new important regulation. All dogs, they want to have CZ CsW pedigree must have minimally since year 1999 all ancestors clear CsW with FCI recognised pedigree (not register, but normally pedigree). Its mean, that is somebody will try to import an CsW with e.g. italian pedigree, in which will be 3 generation CsW, bud by check 6 generation in database will be found, that in 2008 is there some dog with italian register, dont get in CZ the registration as CsW. Such dog have chance get in CZ register pedigree like a hybrid only, but about it must decided CZ Club (register pedigree is not obligatory). Same searching in database will be done by every using the stud or bitch in breed from abroad. |
Pavel, Hanka, your problem is that you are fighting a private war and you are looking to much through the breeders glaces. Don´t you think that their are a lot of people who don´t care what your breeding comittee does? Come down to earth. You have no chance there are more other wolfdogs than Mutaras way inside the csw breed. If you do not be open, you will never get information. I forget the name, but she wrote it here, it is best, when you know everything about these "other" wolfdogs who are brought into the breed, than to hide it or they will be forbidden. These wolfdogs have so many fans that they do not care what you are doing. Work together and than everyone cna decide by himself what he likes more.
The world is turning around and around and no one can stop it! And of course not the czech breeding comittee. Christian PS: I am absolute against mixing csw with other wolfdogs! But live and let live. |
Christian, first must say, that its not a private war. We are genetical source of breed. Like a country of origin we must care about genetical variability and purity of breed. Through fact, that e.g. Italy is in number of puppies born yearly on top and higher, than CZ, interest about buing puppy from CZ from abroad is not lower.
In other countries you can doing, whats you want, but we in CZ guarantee from now more or less, that you buy here with CsW pedigree really CsW only. |
@ Christian:
to some extend you are right. But only to some. The CsW is a recognised breed, bred on purpose according to a standard which had to be approved as well as the dogs themselves. This standard and the actions of the breeding comitee were supposed to insure that this breed was started (an later continued) within 4 registred wolf crossings. Even those animals were considered and brought in intentionally according to the needs AND in agreement with the majority of representatives for this breed. ANY other way to cross breed with any wolf cannot be acceptable as it would open the breed to a mixture due to the thoughts of this or that breeder, only. But then the csw cannot be called FCI recognised breed anylonger. IF one wants a dog according to a certain breed standard they should be able to recognise this particular breed by the accompanying documents. IF one does not care which breed their (future) dog belongs to they also should be made aware that they just have decided to buy a mix - which certainly restricts some perspectives like becoming a breeder themselves of the breed they actually wanted but decided otherwise. But they will most certainly get a dog they will hopefully love... There is nothing wrong with people who want ANY wolf look-alike, and this is what Mutara seems to be, another wolf-look-alike mixture bred in a csw kennel - nothing less. IF some people like these dogs - allright. But there is no need that the officials recognise them as csw - which now has been made clear by the comitee. Nothing is worse than not knowing what you deal with, now everyone knows and may act accordingly. You say live and let live: allright. But to keep the acknowledgement as a breed the CsW needs to be distanced from any other wolf look-alike... I am glad that the comitee now has decided, even if this decission might come hard on some of the owners. regards koboldine PS: Nevertheless, you and the other who said you need to know what they are doing and not hide them... are right. Therefore I think the comitee has planned to mark them in data bases - if I understood correctly |
Hi Christian. I think you have some bad information. I have private war with nobody. I fight with nobody. If somebody tell you something other.............
I only don´t want Mutara hybrids and something similar in czech breeding. But I am not alone. Yesterday we had czech club conferention and there was full room of people which think the same. I think, you don´t know situation in czech club. Here nobody wants to have some "dirty breeding". All czech dogs must have 100% clear pedigree. It is right, isn´t it? You could visit our conferention and you could to see real situation here. |
One important question: How are we going to make sure Italian mutaras stay out of the gene pool if a clever breeder falsifies pedigrees? Are they going to be genetically recorded so we know the pedigrees are accurate to the CsV? Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage. Will CZ/SK and FCI do this to keep mutaras out of the gene pool?
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What is needed is that FCI ban this dogs and not just SL and CZ. Very best regards / Mikael |
I understand the problem and what you want. But the thing is, that the italians breed as much csw than any other country. If I am informed right about 500 csw puppies a year. In czech republic about 100, Slovakia much less, germany less, Poland maybe more.... But the fact is that the ENCI is under the control of FCI and if czech republic and slovakia do not get the FCI in the same boat, you can do nothing.
And sorry to say, I doubt that you will make it possible because the italians are a strong club in the FCI. Luna´s mom, the italian do for their champion dogs DNA-Test. In not so long time there will be much more csw from italy than of the countries of origin. That is one point. But what did me shocked was that in the last worlddogshow in Bratislava one csw won his class which was not pure breed csw! And it was not a Mutara and not csw saarloos mix! That it is what I mean, if you try to forbid everything you will never know what happen behind the scene. People around Mutara were open and did not hide. That is why we all know where the F generations are. Now the people who are starting with mixed csw wolfdogs (like in worlddogshow) hide and you will never know where there are pure bred csw or not. That is from my point of view the result because putting the Mutara and their offspring with a bann. I wrote already I am like you total against mixing. I had no problem if a csw breeder will introduce new carpathian wolf with csw into the breed. But other things are not good. I do not have a solution, it is difficult. People who are new to the breed will not know what is Mutara. Old people know and most of the people do not care. Christian |
I understand the reason for mixing breeds, what I do not understand is way they wont them to have a pure CsW pedigree if they are a F1, F2 or F3 mix :ehmmm
It´s just as stupid as register CsW as GSD :lol: BTW, in what country in EU can you own a F1, F2 or F3 wolfdog ??? In Sweden we have the F5 law, and therefor the "Mutara" lined are banned by law, even if they have a FCI pedigree. Best regards / Mikael |
But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct?
Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood... |
What are you talking about? What do you think was Rep? A hybrid from your point of view? He was F 2!
In Great Britain and the netherlands from F 3 the wolfdogs are dogs. In germany there are new enforcement information vom 13.03.2009 where it is said that "Hybrides" who are mixed under each other are not under the species conservation law, only pure wild animals mixed with domestic animal. This means only F 1! This enforcement information are from the envorinment ministrys in germany. The have a working group who made this enforcement information. And in EG-VO 318/2008 from europaen union it is written that "Hybrids" must have a stable population in nature if their offspring shall be under the protection of this EU-"law". But as everybody knows in germany we do not have "stable" populations of wolfdog hybrids, we even do not have hybrids in nature. And only for that the law was made. Concrete other laws do not exists for hybrids in germany. In italy and france "hybrids" are forbidden but I think it is the same way like in germany. If someone would go to judge people would see that this "Law" is not made for forbidden "hybrids" in private ownership, but only for protection the nature. And this are two different things. Christian |
When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was.
From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point. Christian |
Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics.
Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great. Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes. I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs. But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me. And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed... |
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( if there is any proof ) If there is no proof maybe they just ban every CsW and Saarloos in Sweden from breeding whit pure Pedigree’s as they did between 1997-2008 ! Even if Swedish government did say CsW and Saarloos was OK 1997 the Swedish Kennel Club refused to let any wolfdog on any show or let them breed whit pedigree, until 2008. If they are F1-F4 the dog will probably bee put to sleep to :cry: Therefor please do not import a dog of the "Mutara" lines to Sweden !!! As it might get the breed banned :evil: And the dog killed :evil: !!! In Sweden we do not have any room for any error, one bad thing and we might be banned. Best regards / Mikael |
Where's Massimo?
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Christian, you wrote "people around Mutaras was open".
No, they was not open. Everything was "top secret" and common members of club knew NOTHING. Only a few people (5?) did it..... |
I'm agree with sciamalaia
how many dogs (that the owner write here in wolfdog from many countries) are certainly mutara? how we can to have a confirmation? what we can to do (really) for the preservation of the breed? |
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http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5571 http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5535 http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5570 And all their offsprings. The blood od Mutaras is today just in dogs from kennels : Mutara Passo del Lupo Foresta Incantata |
If it really become one day a big deal (what I doubt), you can likely have DNA test.
mtDNA are inherited from mother, so checking this against SNP or microsatellite specific to arctic wolf would I guess do the trick. |
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Also, two of the three kennels quoted by Pavel are part of the Italian Csw Club, one of them is the bigger kennel in Italy, so our Club and ENCI will never go against it. They will never allow a DNA test to find the Hybrid. My point is that the only weapon you have to avoid them is to know them.. and WD is the best tool you can use. If you mark them with a warning you will lose them, they will be too much to follow without a database. Instead of that warning, if you write something like: they have a canadian wolf in their pedigree in the X generation, I think it will be different. By the way, Lunas Mom, in Italy there are a lot of breeders that have nothing to do with mutaras.. if in the future you will have an Italian pup you can ask them. And of course you can ask also Foresta Incantata and Passo del Lupo, nobody wants to sell you a mutara if you don't ask for it.. |
Passo Del Lupo
Perhaps I misread a post... Please help me with this one. Was it being said that all Passo Del Lupo have Mutara blood or just some? I read earlier in another thread about Passo Del Lupo introducing another wolf into the breed.. Is this the same issue we are discussing or has it happened more than once? My questions (as I have reread them to myself) seem odd and a little stupid, but I want the most precise information possible and sometimes language barriers become a challenging burden. Thanks, Jason Young
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How about we ask the FCI, ENCI, etc. to put a special letter into the registration numbers of all the mutaras and their offspring? That way they can do their thing, still be CsVs, but breeders will know their heritage so that they can make an informed decision on using them and buyers will also know what they are getting?
I know here in the U.S., there was an outcry from the Dobermann club about registering "white" (Albino) Dobermanns, they were concerned about the genes being mixed into the general population, so they designated all of the "white" Dobermanns and their offspring that carry the gene with a "Z" in their registration number. That way those who wanted a white Dobe in their breeding program or as a pet could find what they wanted but the Dobermann people who wanted to prevent it from getting into their breeding program could make sure they did. No fighting, no competition, no arguments. Just the ability to know what your pedigree has in it... |
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Lunas Mom, as Sciamalaia wrote, they do not sell Mutara pups to everyone. The buyers are chosen people! So your concerns are not necessary. There are enough people who have wolfdogs. And there are enough people who want a F 3 wolfdog as well, no matter, if pure csw or not. If you see discussion in german forum - here it did not start really -, the health problems with dm and zw are much more important. And what Nanouk wrote to this is completely right. Health is more important than blood lines, this is my point of view.
Christian |
Va Bene
Grazie! Io non stato cento percento seguro.
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I do agree health is paramount, however, I also feel strongly about breed purity. Otherwise it's nothing more than a mutt.
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Where did you see the amazing mix csw x us wolfdog, in France?
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What is the reference to "Dark's offspring"??
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http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1534
If you scroll down, you see the offspring. And if you go on every dog and scroll down, you see if they do have offspring as well - if the owner told to wolfdog database. Christian |
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If PDL kennel doesn't participate to this forum there must be a reason I believe, so it makes no sense to speak on their behalf. Quote:
Recap would be (please experts correct me where I'm wrong): in CZECH (not in Italy!!) a German Shepherd looking dog Armin (no sure pedigree) was mated with a Canadian wolf Lupina. 3 F1 mix were born.Ave, Audrey, Ares. Officially, only Audrey has mated and given birth to an F2, and this has been done by Foresta Incantata Kennel. All official with documents at hand with names written. Passo del Lupo made a litter S- PDL, with a dog without pedigree, Alaska. On this forum you will find Alaska is Ave Lupo, but this does not correspond to official documents and I doubt it will ever be proven. One S-PDL dog has given birth to a litter too, Q-Pdl. If a Q-Pdl gives birth to a litter, it will be third generation and have official papers in Italy. We know the actions taken by Slovak and Czech club recently to "avoid" having dogs without recent pedigree in their countries. This is a Clash between Kennel clubs clearly, Italian FCI gives pedigree and Czech and Slovak don't, but I suppose either couldn't care less of each other. I am just curious to know, from Czechs or Slovaks, can a dog with "missing parts" on foreign pedigree who therefore cannot give it's puppies a CZ or SK pedigree because of this, participate to a Show or Club show...and maybe even win? I would like to add just one thing: I understand all the actions taken against the "mutara" issue but.... a careful and clever eye can SEE easily that wolves have been used in other occasions too...their offspring being used and VERY wolfish dogs being bred but... because "normal CSW" dogs have been declared...these dogs can enter our gene-pool without any problems or actions...only those who "know" or "have heard of" can avoid them. |
Only one small notice :
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Pavel...there are shows...and SHOWS.
For me dog show depends a lot on JUDGE. And it seems you are not replying...can these dogs participate and win dogshows in CZ or SK....maybe even Club shows? |
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Somebody who has REAL knowledge of the breed, who has judged CSW dogs for many many years, who has bonitation skills too, and who I feel will be as objective as possible and impartial. Those are judges I would do (AND HAVE DONE) thousands of Km for and have my trust. They are less than the number of fingers on my hand. |
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For people, which dont know abou it :
http://www.fci.be/circulaires/23-2010-annex-en.pdf "EXCELLENT may only be awarded to a dog which comes very close to the ideal standard of the breed, which is presented in excellent condition, displays a harmonious, well-balanced temperament, is of high class and has excellent posture. Its superior characteristics in respect of its breed permit that minor imperfections can be ignored; it must however have the typical features of its sex. VERY GOOD may only be awarded to a dog which possesses the typical features of its breed, which has well-balanced proportions and is in correct condition. A few minor faults may be tolerated but none of a morphological nature. This award can only be granted to a dog that shows class." "CACIB – Certificat d’Aptitude au Championnat International de Beauté de la FCI The only dogs which can be taken into consideration for the CACIB are those which have been awarded "EXCELLENT 1st". A CACIB can only be awarded if the dog in question has been assessed as being of superior quality. The CACIB is not automatically and compulsorily linked to the "EXCELLENT 1st”." |
Massimo, mi dispiace per fare come guasta festa, ma perche tu sei rombo cazz'? I haven't seen anything/ any post from you which is positive or constructive at all.... If you want to give us a hand in improving this breed-- can you please lighten up and show direction instead of contempt.. thanx.
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Many readers of this forum instead do and honestly i don't think i don't write positive or constructive posts. "give us a hand in improving this breed" :p:p wow...you really do much to improve the breed, and you are modest for sure. I was very clear in my post, not sure you understood most of it, must be my very bad American-English, sorry. "ma perchè tu sei rombo cazz" would be translated into "why are you such a dick breaker" and is not a very polite expression. Sorry I am not used to write in these terms and would appreciate if you did the same. Maybe you will come to some Summer camp in SK or CZ as I do almost every year and we can laugh in front of a glass of beer but PLEASE do not judge what you don't know and most of all....what you don't want to hear. :p tilll next beer! massimo |
@Pavel
I see your point of view and these new arguments seems interesting, maybe we can open a new/different thread about "dog show results and judging" or something like that? |
My Devotion
I (Jason Young of AmeriCani Kennels) am very dedicated to developing this breed in the USA! I personally hold anyone who has decided to retain or not disclose any helpful or useful information or available puppies which are PRIME for a breeding program (when requested) personally responsible for any future failure involving the development of the CsV . If you do not fall under this criteria, then you shouldn't get upset! And if you are a silent culprit, then shame on you. I have never claimed to be a pro at anything, but I damn sure know how to find info!!! I firmly stand behind my fellow American enthusiasts when they want the most useful info..... Honestly, I think we have been given about 10% as a whole. (except those who have offered help with health issues! I am HAPPY with you guys!) I think it might be a good Idea to help a possible improvement instead of being part of a larger problem... I really get frustrated trying to decipher all of these posts by everyone when sometimes no post at all is a good idea... If I ask a question, I have thought it best for everyone to read and respond. I have exhausted countless hours reading lots of useful info, yet LOTS of circle jerk crap. All I ask from EVERYONE is to keep open forums OPEN, and private messages for any quirks or small issues which may (in the long run) become a private issue..... My recent experiences have frustrated me to the point of posting this! I'm guilty of talking trash in open forums, but that is not what they are for..:shock:
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wow...I think this last post deserves a whole thread too!
:p I will not make this become a private discussion between me and you and honestly I'm not in the mood for ANY personal discussion, I'm not interested. Good luck in improving the breed, training your dogs, breeding healthy and brave dogs with interesting Pedigrees and great morphology. TILL THEN....Take it easy man! ;-) |
I am slow!
:) I sent you a private message before you sent this! LOL... I have requested some private input from you,,, I feel if you are interested & willing to post openly, then why not privately? Hey man, I'm not here to stir up problems.... I'm here to solve them... or find others who can - if I can't. What would you do if you began something that required lots of USEFUL input from other people? I like the beer idea... call me sometime
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Mass:
I would like to add just one thing: I understand all the actions taken against the "mutara" issue but.... a careful and clever eye can SEE easily that wolves have been used in other occasions too...their offspring being used and VERY wolfish dogs being bred but... because "normal CSW" dogs have been declared...these dogs can enter our gene-pool without any problems or actions...only those who "know" or "have heard of" can avoid them.[/quote] And what is your suggestion? To write it down in this data base in wolfdog, so everyone can decide to to use the offspring of this "wolfish" csw? Or only a few know about it and can make their own hype of having/getting most wolfish csw? One thing, Massimo, I do not like when people are talking about Mutaras as if they are all over because they know nothing. The problem with these people is that they start their let me call it "head cinema", their start their own movie. And that is why gossip and rumours start. Hope ou understand what I mean. And if you see now the problems the csw have in general - getting into heat, break up heat, dm, zw pp. - it seems to me, that a lot of breeders only bred for "old blood line". It is use for nothing, old blood line. Healthy dogs that must breeding for, good wolfish looking. Christian |
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