Calculation of Wolf blood?
 

So I was sent a link calculating Luna's pedigree in terms of percentages.
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.php?op=modload&name=WolfdogDB&file=wright& lan=eng&wid=12489&maxdepth=10

According to this calculation, she has almost 30% wolf blood. Is this true? It seems a bit high for a vlcak so many generations away, with so many GSDs in the foundation of the breed. I would think her actual inheritance of wolf blood would be about 3% at most?
How is this calculated? And at this point, is the percentage of wolf blood even applicable as they are no longer a "hybrid"?

See http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8749

Yes it is true, I did not believe it at first, as the American Wolfdog is 50% at generation 1 and 25 % at generation 2... = /2 for every generation....

But CsV was not breed like AWD, as allot of ( CsV ) and ( Hybrids ) was mix whit each other (and also whit wolf.)

You can se here on Blood line nr 4, GSD is not used at all...

You can look here on Hronsek >>> http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tchecoslovaque.com/cgi-bin/wolf_blood.py?dog_id=9076

Look at "Shortest distance" to Wolf, it say 7 generations.
Look at "Shortest distance" to GSD, it say 8 generations.

One must also remember if you mix 30% CsV to 30% CsV the puppy´s will be 30 % to, but one more generation from wolf....

30+30=60/2 = 30% wolf blood

but as in AWD, if you mix whit dog that has 0% wolf blood, it will look like this...

50% hybrid X dog 0% = 50+0=50 /2 = 25 % wolf blood.

But remember it is just mathematically and the breeding selection and generations make a AWD at 25% and CsV on 25% not the same thing, as it might be 7 generation of selection on CsV but only 2 on the AWD.

Best regards / Mikael

Hello Lunas Mom,

Wolfblood percentage is just a mathematical thing as Mikael just explained and you can read a lot about it in f.e. http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8749 which Rona quoted.

The mother of your dog has a mathematical wolfblood percentage of 27.48%, see: this link
The father of your dog has a mathematical wolfblood percentage of 29.17% see this link
So theoretically your dog has a wolfblood percentage of (27.48% + 29.17%) / 2 = 28,32% , which is about the average (about 27 - 28%). Doesn't say a lot (almost nothing) about the level of wolfish characteristics.

Thank you very much for the info. I read the thread you referred me to, and it seems the "conflict" in my mind is the "American" way of looking at "wolf blood" percentage and the early breeding selection in the CSV.
At this point, the CSV is considered a DOG so the idea of it having wolf blood is no different than any of our other breeds as they are all, technically, descended from wolves.
I guess the idea is to explain some of the unique traits seen in the CSV versus dogs that are farther removed from wild ancestry.

Of course when I discuss it with people, I do tend to say, based on the "American" way of looking at wolf blood, that Luna is really no more than about 3% "wolf"... for me, I sort of think of "wolf blood" as "pure wolf blood" - once there is a mix, even though it has a percentage of wolf blood, it is still a mix, so I think of "wolf blood" as the amount of "pure wolf" in her.
It also reinforces to the public that she is NOT a wolf-hybrid, she is a dog and 3% sounds "friendlier" to them and 30%.
Most of the time I tend to describe the vlcak as a breed that "looks like a wolf, acts like a shepherd."
People are more likely to interact with her when they think she has little to no wolf in her - initially they suspect she is a hybrid and stay away, but when I describe her as a DOG that just happens to look wolfy they want to pet her.

I may be wrong... but I don't think that the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog really has 30% of wolf blood. I think the actual percentage, from a genetic point of view, is much lower than that. I remember someone on the Italian forum said he did a genetic test on his wolfdogs and it showed that the actual wolf blood percentage was lower than 4%, so I guess that when you tell people your dog is no more 3% wolf you are probably not lying.
I guess that at this point of development of the breed, and after so many generations from the last pure wolf, they should be considered DOGS. They may be a “difficult” and peculiar breed, yes, but they are still dogs.
And if we actually portrayed them as such, there would be many less fanatical people getting them because they want a “wolf”. I think that it would have been better for the sake of the breed if it’s name was “Czechoslovakian Shepherd” instead of “Czechoslovakian Wolfdog”, but this is of course just a personal opinion ;)

Lunas Mom, take a look at Belyaev (foxes) and Tryon (rats) works about effects of selection, it would help to relativise this %.

Must be a post on a 1st April ;)

:lol: So it seems.... if wolf genes evaporated, then GSD must have disappeared as well... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?:rock_3

:shock::shock::shock:
Well, personally I don't really care how wofish my dog is or what her genotype is..., but... WHY, in your opinion, do CSV play wolves in films? I bet it'd be much easier to train a GSD than a CSV to act wolf.... :rock_3

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I lately discovered some human characteristics in mine :lol::lol:8)

Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-).
You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication".
To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible.

Thank you for your explanation, I'll ask more specific information to the person who wrote about the genetic analysis on his dogs to understant what exactly he was referring to when he said they turned out to be less than 4% wolf, because from what you write it probably wasn't what I thought it was. As I said, I'm no expert regarding those matters. Anyway I was first of all talking about what I see: the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog looks very different from a wolf to me. If I had to tell how much wolf I see in the average CWD using a percentage, it would not be nearly as high as a 30% (one third wolf!). But then, someone else may think they look MORE than 30% wolf. Again, I'm conveying a PERSONAL opinion, not stating a universal truth. Maybe I'm just sick of people owning Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and calling them "wolves" :roll:

At this point, you do not stand alone ;).
Groette Martine.

We've discovered this long time ago :rock_3:):)

Statistically, I was looking at the number of GSDs and wolves that were used as foundation stock for our breed. 48 GSDs and 5 wolves. 5 is not 30% of 48.
Also, per one of the above posts, as the "best of the best" of the CSVs were selected to be bred, likely it was an overwhelming amount of GSD genetics that were selected for. Yes, they look very wolfy (though a lot of GSDs do too) phenotypically, most "wolf" behavioral characteristics were selected AGAINST - such as flight response, shyness, nervousness, independence, etc. Most of the desireable behavioral characteristics that were selected FOR were GSD traits - courage, biddability, social/pack drive, etc.
The wolf and dog genome are almost identical as dogs, obviously ARE wolves - albeit domesticated. Our advantage is that we know what wolf blood we used, and there may be some DNA characteristics (mitochondrial or other) specific to our Carpathian wolves. Certainy there are differences morphologically. So perhaps in the future we can recognize those markers and determine EXACTLY how much "wolf" is in any given CSV.
Until then I will just enjoy my DOG. :lol:
Oh, just because CSVs are often used to portray wolves, doesn't necessarily mean they look exactly like wolves... here in the U.S. I know of many film shots of "wolves" are played by sable GSDs, Malamutes and sometimes even Belgian shepherds! I am hoping that having a CSV available for film work will help change that, as my own dogs have been in multiple film projects - in other roles of course - they've played Police K9s or guard dogs and even "crippled" dogs in need of a doggie stroller... :|

I found out that not many of the so-called 'ordinary people' (i.e. not dog lovers) see the wolfishness of our dogs. Most expect a dog on a leash and they see a dog. It's usually children, who say: 'Look, this dogs looks like a wolf".8)

In our city lives a man who owns (probably illegallly) a real Carpathian wolf, a truly beautiful animal called Burek. I met them once walking at the river. We started talking and the man told me I was the THIRD (sic!) person in five years who recognized Burek was a wolf. :shock:

I asked him if he was not afraid that I'd report him, but he laughed and said that in such a case he'd tell the City Guards or Police that Burek was a CSV without a pedigree and nobody would question that. :|

And now a question: a dog or a wolf? :lol:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/2/...35-1592564.jpg

Hmmmm, I think it is nor a wolf or a dog...

I think it is a Wolfdog ;-)

Very best regards / Mikael

Good answer! :lol: It's a CSV 8)

Originally Posted by Rona http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif

And now a question: a dog or a wolf? :lol:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/2/...35-1592564.jpg


I did think the ears was to mush GSD, wolf normally has lower and more furry ears, I also did think the eyes was to dark, most wolf I did see had very light eyes.

But sometimes it´s very hard to tell...

Very best regards / Mikael

Ooooohh ... you couldn´t wait, Rona? I was still searching on Per Olav´s site because of the impressive "neck collar" :):)

presupposed here is 5/48 = 10,42 %, which is indeed not 30%... :rock_3 . This may be again “the American way” but it’s a wrong assumption, at least regarding the way how the (mathematical) wolf blood percentage is calculated in our breed with for example the moreover fantastic statistic tool, Elf made available. This mathematical wolf blood percentage doesn’t say a lot, but that's already discussed in this and various other topics. It’s just math's not genetics, as we simply like figures....

Back to the evolution of this mathematical wolf blood percentages of our contemporary Csv’s you are refering to in the quote: Not 5 wolves are used, but 4, which mated 6 times. 4 of these matings with gsd’s and 2 matings (Sarik) with F3 and F4/5. The first generation of these 6 wolf matings were crossed with GSD’s and with other F1’s-F4’s and went on in the breed. So several of the F1’s-F4’s were also intercrossed, f.e. F1 XF4, F2 X F3 etc.

The total number of GSD’s used in the matings is 43 (maybe I could have overlooked one), not 48. Most of them mated with F1’s-F4’s. The reason you find more than 43 (or44?) GSD’s in our pedigree is that in some occasions also one (or two) of the parents of the used GSD’s are included in the database, for example Nancy von Steinstücken (__NO__) and Ohle vom Rundeck (__NO__) are included, but they weren’t used in the breed theirselves, their son Bojar vom Schotterhof (__NO__) was used. Or Tula Irka (__NO__) which is included in the pedigree database, but wasn’t used herself, her daughter Centa Irka (__NO__) was.
The 43 used GSD’s mated 50 times. 22 of these GSD matings didn’t go on in our breed. The 6 wolf matings did. See also this topic. So from this point of view nowadays our wolfdogs are in base descent of 28 GSD matings and 6 wolfmatings (26 individual GSD’s and 4 individual wolves), not to mention the intercrosses between the F1’s-F4’s of which specifically one was used excessively often: Rep z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3) . He had a (mathematical) wolf blood percentage of 42,19%, which again doesn’t say a lot. This all declares why nowadays our Csv’s have a mathematical wolf blood percentage of about 27% (with some outliers up and a number below) to which is often refered to.

@Rona: beautiful picture! I think it's a very nice looking wolfish Csv

Actually, it's funny how *I* see the species... to me, every dog is a developmentally stunted, physically mutated wolf... :lol:
Though most people here, in the U.S., really only recognize the term "Animal Behaviorist" I am actually an "Animal Ethologist" - the difference is that Behaviorists study behavior in a "repeatable, scientific" laboratory method. We Ethologists are a little "rogue" - we study animals in their natural environment and record their behavior. Because animals LEARN, very few negative episodes are repeatable, thus "anecdotal" rather than following the "scientific" model.
Of course, these "anecdotes" are an amazing peek into how animals think - Betty the Crow in England can fashion a hook out of a paper clip to get food items in a tube. Just like Chimps who select and strip a twig to stick in an anthill to get food... or my dogs who learn how to get out of locked crates and open the drawer that contains their treats...
That is actually one of the many reasons I love the CSV - I love watching how Luna perceives the world and how she learns. It's incredible to me.
BTW, did "Burek" the wolf behave especially "wolfy"? Shy? Nervous? Just curious...

I thought there was a 5th wolf brought in sometime in the 1970s?

Have a look here:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8041

She wasn't my dog, but she had one of the most beautiful CSV heads, fantastic fur, and exceptionally sweet nature... :cry:

Well, I'd say ....rather indifferently. When I tried to touch him he didn't seem to like it: put his tail under his belly, and made a step back, but in his eyes I didn't see any panic or big nervousness. I suppose he was used to walking among people from early age.
The guy told me that Burek ruined the flat a few times, but apart from that was exceptionally rational and loving. They never had any serious arguments and he was even able to train him some commands which Burek obeyed when he was both motivated and in a good mood :lol:. I wished I asked him more questions...

In fact I had heard about this guy earlier from my son's friend, but I thought it was kind of a "city legend" ;-) and that it was just a pedigreeless CSV like our Tina was. But when I saw the animal I had no doubts it was a wolf... the movement, eye expression... It was like watching... the essence of CSVs. Well, we all saw wolves in zoos, but it was interesting to see a wolf walking on leash in the street just like an ordinary dog 8)

I asked if I could take a picture, but the owner for obvious reasons refused.

Blitz is great

other wolf :)
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/3/...68-7203626.jpg

I think I was talking about the "average" CWD. You don't have to show me pictures, I know many very "wolfy" Czachoslovakian wolfdogs ;-) and many not strictly "wolfy" but equally beautiful. I noticed Blitz on the database a while ago, it's a shame she died :(

To me a CSV is a dog that has SOME characteristics of a wolf, maybe a bit more than average dog... especially when it comes to mischiefs.;-) To me they do look much more wolfish than GSD, especially as their movement is concerned. (just a personal opinion:|)

But I agree that little machos (where little refers not to their size, but rather to their macho quality:p) with big 'wolves', are simply ...humorous. :p

I think I still prefer the 'big machos' with tiny dogs on long leash that one may meet in Croatian holiday resorts:lol:

I've seen a wolf with really dark eyes... If he had a bonitation card, it would be written "light brown" :lol:

In fact this particular photo lies. Blitz had very clear eyes.

That's what I wanted to say; the light on this photo is very poor.

Next wolf blood ;) ? Magnificent Bezinka

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...83-7403399.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...84-1385713.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...80-7611194.jpg

Is Bezinka the more brownish one? A real wolf?

Yes, she is a terrific carpatian wolvin with now 2 years. On the pic she must be a bit younger.

Christian

Comparism photos
 

Hey "elf" !

Very fine pictures to see and to explain the differences in looking of (one)pure wolf to ( two ) CsW..!!

Great photos, i love them !!

Do you have any more of this ?

Best greetings from Germany, Silvester

Hi,

Here are some more here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...t=10934&page=2

Also these ones:

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/4/...33-7315507.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/4/...22-4653346.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/4/...20-8935637.jpg

I guess there're more on this site. The ones in the snow really rocks, I did not find any better !

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...83-7403399.jpg

Cheers

Elf, thanks for the photos. :) I love seeing pictures of Carpathian wolves, since I've mainly had knowledge/experience with American Timber wolves. I like seeing the differences and the structure, since THIS is where the CsV comes from! I also think it's interesting that if you look at CsVs all the time, you think how amazingly wolfy they look, then you put them NEXT to a wolf and you realize, yes, they really are just DOGS! ;)

Regarding "wolfblood", I think the calculation really can only be considered a fun pastime. There's really no such thing as "wolf genes" vs. "dog genes", it's all DNA! ;) During reproduction, DNA combines, changes around, and mutates. There's really no looking at it saying, "This strand is wolf, while this other strand is dog," unless my understanding of genetics is WAY off. ;) So, really, the way I see it, is CsVs are dogs with recent wolf ancestry when compared to other breeds. It'd be interesting to study the DNA, though, since GSDs are actually one of the breeds farthest away from wolves in DNA. I'm curious to know where CsVs would fit on that scale!

http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm
(Dogs closer to the top of the list are closest to wolves genetically.)

Vicky, what do you mean where the csw fits in the scale? Where shall a F 6 wolfdog fit? Right, near the wolf. The wolf genes are not "cooked" away.... Look at csv statistic, lots of the csw have at minimum two wolves in their lines, but a few have more or all 4 wolves.

Christian

Thank you, tony :):) ... especially for the dog on the left. I thought there´s only one with this "trademark" 8)

Hach... you mean the right angle carried half above the back is a registred Trademark??? Of whom? :lol: Looks funny....

@elf thanks for digging out these pics. I totally agree that I need to look at wolves more often to remember my dog being just that: a dog ;-)

What I'm saying is that genes are always combining and changing into something new with every generation. With GSDs being so different to wolves genetically (in comparison with other breeds) it only makes sense that CsVs might fall farther away than some other breeds, despite the difference in recent genetic addition. The more people breed selectively and move the breed towards a cohesive standard, the more the genes are going to mutate into their own general group, neither wolf nor GSD. If you look at the breeds closer to wolves genetically vs. the breeds farther away, the differences aren't in when the last wolves were actually introduced, it's in how much "interference" humans give vs. nature. The breeds near the top of the list developed mainly without help, where the breeds near the bottom are more biddable and more "touched" by humans. THIS is why I'm curious where the CsV stands, it's quite possible the dogs are further from wolves than people want to admit.

Supposedly, one of the founding ancestors of the GSD (grandparent of Horand) was a WOLF, so I am not quite sure about the genetic "study" that says GSD are the breed "furthest away" from the wolf... I would say they are one of the ones that, aside from CsV and Saarloos, have the closest traceable link - most recent ancestry to the wolf. And there are also whispers of wolves being brought into the GSD early on in it's development, not to mention the whispers about the wolf blood in the Czechoslovakian strain of GSDs - word is that the Pohranicni Straze breeders kept some of the wolf-dog crosses in their GSD breeding program, which may be what accounts for the morphoogical and behavioral differences between the Czech GSDs and other lines...
Also I just wanted to say that Bezinka really looks (to me) like our Eastern Coyote, as opposed to the North American wolf. She is gorgeous. I, personally, have always had an admiration for coyotes due to their intelligence, resourcefulness and adaptability. Heck, they EASILY live in our urban areas - from downtown Chicago to NYC's Central Park! Whereas wolves need specific habitats in which to live... Clever Coyote, the Trickster, seems to be able to live right alongside us here and not get noticed much...

Vicky, I am sorry to say but I can not follow your arguments. It make no sense having a wolf in 6. generation in front of my for example Myla Crying Wolf and you try to say that she is far away from wolf? Did you ever tell that in the US to the people who made beast out of hybrids which they definetly not are? Your arguments would be the same.

But what is much more important is, that in 2007 in germany (poland) they made genetic studies, at the place where they researched the genes from germanies wolves, with the genetic material from csw and saarloos. And what can I tell you, the result was, that csw are wolf mixes!

From logical point of view your ideas can not match.

Bob Wayne even find out that under 85 pure breed dogs there are ancient breeds like Basenji, Saluki, Akita, Malamute, Siberian Husky, ChowChow and a few others there is wolf in them! He calls ancient breeds the ones who are older than 500 years. So if you notice that you can imagine that they will find a lot of wolf in the breed like csw.

Christian

;)

More Besinka pics, beautiful:

http://alissea.rajce.idnes.cz/Arya%2Csmecka_a_vlk/

http://alissea.rajce.idnes.cz/csv_Ar...ka_a_borderak/

http://alissea.rajce.idnes.cz/Arya,_..._vlcice/#album

Ouuuff ... thanks, tony ;):)

I think you are right: mutara seems to be only the visible part of the iceberg.

Did he wrote this - iceberg - here in the thread?

There is no iceberg, only a small mountain like in the northern part of germany where there are no mountains.:shock:

Hi everybody !

I often read some other country forums on WD, but i'm only active on the french forum. But this time i'm comming out of the shadows (it's a translation of a french expression, don't know if you understand it :) ).

Besinka is absolutely beautiful and i have just discovered those pictures.
When i see pictures it's seems that in it's head it's more a dog than a wolf (i might be wrong... but that's what pictures inspires me) and this is the first time i see a wolf so close to human and dog (except some wolves in US).
Is there somewhere i can learn more about Besinka and it's story ?
A blog, a website, whatever...

I love wolves, i love wolfdogs, (yeah i'm sure i'm not the only one here ^^) and... i'm really curious ! :roll:

Thanks ;)

A wolf with a head of a dog???? Besi is a two year old carpathian wolf. There is no website to see. Sometimes she is in the czech republic in summer camps. But you do not seem to know how a wolf look...

There are lots of wolves who walk with people!

Christian

Hi !
This is not what i said !

I said she seems to be more a dog than a wolf IN her head.
I think this is a problem of translation... What i mean is when i see pictures and how she intreacts with human and with other dogs i don't see the wild side of a wolf, but more the "dog side".
This is my feeling after seeing her on some pictures, and as i said, i might be wrong. That's why i wanted to know if there were more informations about Besinka... just curious. That's it

Hope it's more clear now :?

US wolves yes, but this is the first time i see an european wolf like this with people and dogs (one more time: only based on some pictures i have seen)

Ok sorry, I missunderstood.

We had in germany legendary Inge, she died in 1998 with 14 years, she was in lots of movies and documentary stuff. Sure it is true these animals are exceptions. In the US are more of these animals, every wolf rescue station has such wolves. Because american wolves are more tame.

I met Besi one year ago with two of my puppies csw 4 month old, Besi was 11 month old and they played together. She is fantastic. She is used to people other dogs. But we will see if she will stay so, when she matured and becomes adult wolvin. Let us cross fingers. She is very well socialized by her owner. They are very experiened people in wolfdogs and wolves.

Christian

Fine to meet you here, r0d :)

I don´t think you´ll find a blog or something else. People who own such animals normally stay in the shadow :rock_3

Hahaha, Angie that is absolutely not true!!! These people live in the outskirts of Prague in a Reihenhaus, do you can translate please, and everybody knows that they have wolves and csws. And as I wrote Besi is many times in summercamps. And Besi is walking in the streets where the people live. These people have the allowance to have wolves, all people and authorities know it.

By the way, Angie are you going on thursday to the worlddogshow or on friday to the denish clubshow? I am looking for someone who can hold Tala during I show Myla... hehehe. But only in the clubshow. For the worlddogshow I was too late.... hmmm

Good night
Christian

Hahaha, hanni. I spoke about a "blog or something else", didn´t I?

Thought you wanna eat among wolves tomorrow. It´s time to prepare yourself.

Thank you for your answers, both of you !

I was wondering if there was a blog or website, because when i saw these pictures, i thought "Besinka doesn't seems to be top secret so what's her story ?".

But of course i can understand that people who own a wolf or an hybrid illegaly want to keep this as secret as possible.
It didn't seem to be the same with Besinka and you just have confirmed this ;)

"Voilà" :)

(Edit: just to be sure... i have understood that they have allowance for Besinka. No more missunderstood with my bad english please :lol: )

"People stay in the shadow" you wrote. That means for me that they are not open. Sorry, if I did missunderstand you and you meant "only" a blog pp.

Rod, they have an allowance because they have 4 wolves and they live direct at the street and everyone who passes by can see them. And of course not only see them but they howl from time to time. So there is nothing to hide.

Maybe they will come over to me in july or I will go over there. These are very nice people and they are "older" that is why they do not have a homepage or blog. I am 47 so you can imagine what I mean with older.

Christian

I don´t know, r0d. And I´m sceptical of people who own CsW and wolves. There is always someone who wants to refresh the "calculation of wolf blood".

Voilà :)

They have some csw, but they don´t breed them longer time.
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o32.html

Thank you, Hanka :)

I just read this on the Wolf Park website and thought it would be applicable to share. :) I think this is what they used to lecture off of when we did our wolf & dog seminar there, really suggest it to anyone who could make it!

http://wolfpark.org/ccpage3.shtml

Very cool article. Regardless of "content" or percentage, I see in my own vlcaks the difference. And it makes me wonder if it is really possible to have a dog that looks like a wolf but acts like a dog? If temperament follows phenotype, perhaps we will always have an issue with wolfy behavior in wolfy-looking vlcaks. Either that or we just need more generations of selective breeding to get it right. After all we are a relatively new breed... I just wish I'd been around to see a vlcak like Rep z Pohranicni Straze - supposedly the perfect vlcak - wolfy looking but super character...

But Rep was "Hybrid" F 2? How can it be that such an animal has super character????? Did not everybody tell that "Hybrids" can not have "super" character? His grandfather from fathers side was Sarik, male wolf cross bred in 1974!

Science says: If you do selective breeding you have a dog at F 3
generation. Karel Hartl told the same! Some of course are with F 2 a dog, for example Rep?! I personally do know nothing about Rep his character. I only saw some pictures, where it seems that he looks nice.

By the way I got yesterday a link to the book about the german shepards from breed founder Max von Stephanitz from 1921(!). There are a lot of nice pictures from the original breed in it. And of course one picture where a gsd and a wolf are leashed side by side. And a F 1 from gsd and wolf who looks like wolfy csw. The book is in german but, really funny, out of a library in North Carolina. Someone scanned it and now it is in internet for free. Who is interested can send me an eMail or sms.

Good night
Christian

Well, according to all the current research, regardless of whether or not Rep was F2, he apparently inherited exactly the characteristics they were breeding for at the time. If you read the WolfPark article, it mentions how "erroneous" the "percentage" argument really is - a wolf-dog cross can inherit the "best" or the "worst" of both...
Perhaps the 50% parts Rep got was the best parts of wolf and GSD. Now, whether or not his offspring inherited that is the question. And some dogs are better producers than they are as actual specimens of the breed. Genetics is like throwing a bunch of dice in the air... you may have the same dice every time, but they won't display the same number every time.
One reason it's nearly useless to breed to a great "brother" rather than the great dog itself... just because they are littermates does not mean they inherited the same things... Also another reason tight breeding solidifies "type" - by narrowing the gene pool, you can "load the dice"... make it more likely to get what you want, and line-bred animals have closer genotype-phenotype...
I have Max v Stephanitz's book, too - very interesting and can't wait for the Karel Hartl book to be translated to English...!!!

Exactly, science says if you select only on the marker tameness you will have "dogs" in a litter of F3, but not that the whole litter will show that kind of character. The military did an extremely hard selection on character and had to do this much longer than F3, the first character-test was made with 8 weeks and all dogs showing shy behaviour were killed. But I still got to know some genetic wolflike-shy CSW about 10-13 years ago, though none today.
And we should remember that this kind of shyness means permanent livelong stress to the creature, for me a kind of abuse.
But anyway this is OT, after decades of breeding without wolves crossed in the wolfpercentage only is a number that will not change out of mathamatical reason, nothing else.

Ina

Luna`s mum, now you gave the answer why csw differ so much in behaviour, the mix of genes. And now you know why italians csw are much more doggie like than the rest of the "pack" because the "right" breeders do much more and faster selection than the others simply because they do more litters and can choose always the best and doggie like animals.

Sorry, Ina if you would read "The keeping of wolfdog-hybrids in Great Britain" - it is from 2000 - you would notice that it is not a question of "hard" selection but truely a selection of course of tame, friendly, open, not aggressive and not shy animals. The workabilities are not interesting, only for military. Other wise Great Britain never would say in his laws that from F 3 on every wolfdog is a dog! The netherlands say the same. And in italy is the law that from F 2 you do not need permission - so because it is dog.

And as I wrote, I do not know, how the character of Rep was, but it seems to me that he was a nice guy. Otherwise I would not know why he was bred so often.

Out of Stephanitz, The german Shepard, edition from 1921, page 10:

"There live naturefriends between us, who have much tame, wilddogs, espicially wolves, used to streetlife in big cities and who claimed that is nothing difficult to get used them to do that. Such tame "wilddogs" - Stephanitz calls wolves wilddogs - learn to bark, show their feelings to their owner or other family members in the same way like normal dogs do."

And on page 45 you can see a german shepard leashed beside a wolf, like two dogs!

Very interesting!

Nice weekend to everybody.

Christian

Yes, there are apparently wolves in any given litter that have more "tame" characteristics... I have a subscription to that "Wolfdog" Magazine, and there are wolf breeders who "selectively" breed wolves to produce animals suitable for "educational" purposes... obviously you don't want a shy nutball in a classroom... I am curious to know how often they have to infuse new "wild" blood, though, as like the Balyeav Fox experiment, selecting just for tameness produces "infantile" and "domestic" traits - in foxes, curled spitz-like tails, floppy ears and patchwork coats....
So I would think if one bred wild wolves long enough selecting just tameness, obviously a DOG would emerge! And if one IS breeding wild wolves, at some point DO THEY BECOME DOGS?

Even in Finland it is allowed to have wolfdogs, no matter if F 1 or high content. They do wolfdogshows and is written about in the newspapers!

What do you mean with "wild" wolves? Wolf pups getting out of the wild and than raised up in human hands?

These wolves you are talking about are for many many years in peoples hands and are almost like dogs. Mostly in behaviour not quite different to csw! But much more calm and no aggression or hyperactivity. German shepard is mostly missing in them.... They go back and not in front like a dog, they do not attack.

Christian

By "wild wolves" I am referring to wild parents - the pups obviously have to be raised by humans to become acclimated... so, say that is your first generation out of the wild... of those pups, you select the "tamest" and breed them - second generation removed from the wild... the pups they have would be third generation from "wild" - even if you are using selective breeding (say, only MacKenzie Valley wolves), by generation "4" of HUMAN SELECTED BREEDING, are they DOGS or WOLVES?

Wolves.

I think, in only 4 generations from the wild you will get a wolfdog, if you have the chance to breed only tame open wolves. I know two wild caught (as puppies) wolves, a male and a female. The female is open and friendly and is not afraid of strangers. The male is a bit back, I would not say shy. He stays in about 4 m away, but he does not try to hide or something like this. They are only one year old and we will see how they develop.

Here you get very good information, how it "works" breeding wolves to dogs:

http://www.floridalupine.org/publica...s_and_Dogs.htm

But of course there can be tame wolves from the wild. The problem is you have to get a pair so that you can breed them in further back generations. But how you will can say there are wild wolves which are tame? You must have the chance to watch them in nature. So you had to get the whole litters to watch and then to decide. This is almost impossible. There are a lot of wolves in zoos, animalpark, movie industry, where you can get them as adults or as pups.

Saying it needs only 3 generations to get a dog out of a wolf means crossing pure wolf with wolfdog or dog. And there are some exceptions where these wolfdogs are F 2 and like dog. And there are wolves who are 12 generations behind wild caught wolves and they only look like wolves but they are dogs.

Looking at the statement from Monty Sloan that it needs 2 time of work life to get a dog out of a wolf would mean that you need about 70 to 80 years to get a dog. But I think he meant to breed only wolves from the start getting them out of the wild. But even that is too long. I will talk to him soon when I will meet him in september in sweden.

Christian