Tamaskan Dogs..
 

Recently on another forum the subject of Tamaskan dogs came up and as I was doing some research it seemed very clear to me that some of the heavily used foundation dogs used in the formation of the Tamaskan dog are CSVs.

Besides the 'problem' of outcrossing, there is also the fact that the Tamaskan club claims to be breeding a 'wolf dog without the wolf' - which is clearly not true if CSVs were used heavily in its foundation.

For example the foundation kennel of Tamaskans claim that this dog:
http://tamaskan-dog.com/blustag/jackal.htm

Is a "Siberian cross".. in Tamaskan Dog Registry, Jackal at Blustag is claimed to be from a Siberian Husky dam and a dog of unknown cross named Oskari from Polar Speed kennel. There is also another "Oskari" (pet name only) at Polar Speed kennel, the CSV known as Oxbox Leva-Neve (searchable on our database here).

The "unknown cross" to which the sire is ascribed is a registered Siberian Husky, which would make Jackal 100% Siberian (clearly, he is not).

The owner of Polar Speed has kept one of Jackal's brother/littermates and acknowledges him as a "wolfdog cross"...

My problem is this:

Tamaskans are being marketed as "friendly" dogs that looks like wolves with 0 wolf content. Clearly according to my research this is not true (will post more information further down). It is my opinion that this 'breed' is just mildly outcrossed CSV, yet the 'breeders' are taking all the credit for 'creating' this dog and getting it its wolfy type.. which is simply not true.

Has anyone any more information regarding the use of CSVs in the dogs known as Tamaskan?

Here is a site that I found very informative:

http://the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.blogspot.com/

The Tamaskan Dog Registry is in my opinion outright lying about the origins of their dogs when you read the details.

I got questions from Tamaskan breeders who were looking for a male csw for breeding 0 Wolf %. So, I think this answer enough.

Christian

I started a thread on this same topic a few months back. I was contacted by some "Aatu" Tamaskan ("regular" Tamaskan people say they distance themselves from Aatu) breeders here in the US - looking to utilize one of my males as a stud. :evil: Later, they said someone else had agreed to let them use a male (or maybe they found a breeder willing to send a male...).

Here is the thread:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13371

Interesting you noted your previous thread where both Blustag & Blufawn comment.

Interesting to further note the shared parentage of Oskari the Vlcak, as well.

Thanks for all those who replied both here & by PM.

Still reading around more but it seems like to me the Aatu people are openly breeding to wolfdogs where as the "normal" people (Blustag included) seem to be doing well, either not anymore or behind closed doors, as the dog is said to be 0% wolf content.

Finding it very difficult to believe that a pretty consistent type with the pictorial 'standard' can be found as early as 2006 when the 'breed' was in its first generations supposedly founded upon solely GSDs, Mals, Sibes and a handful of unknowns.

Does anyone know the kennel Polar Speed personally?

Hi Yukidomari,

I am the person that helped Blustag get her CsV x Siberian huskies & wolfdogs Valko and Henki (real wolfdogs originating from pure wolf / high content wolfdog called Boogie) from Polar Speed. I visited Polar Speed quite a few times to gather information and photograph his dogs in order for Blustag to buy dogs from him. Also included full pedigrees with information that Oskari is a pure CsV (Finnish Champion btw) that I still have saved on my hard drive. I have been trying to tell people the truth about Tamaskan wolf & CsV content from the day I noticed that Blustag and Blufawn were going to deny it. To me it is omportant people know what the truth is and what they are getting if they want to get a Tamaskan.

If you want recent news on this, we have had one Finnish Tamaskan dog, Blustag Little Moon ("Nuuk") tested in Finnzymes lab on parental DNA analysis compared with a white wolfdog Valko (sired by Boogie, mother a pure sibe). Nuuk's TDR pedigree states his father is a dog called Whitefang. No information of this Whitefang is available from the TDR (where he lives, who owns hims etc). The DNA analysis was positive for Valko being Nuuk's sire (see: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AX...FtNXZjaA&hl=fi), the possibility for him NOT to be Nuuk's sire is less than one percent as stated by the Finnzymes lab. Whitefang is also listed by the TDR Foundation Dog Booklet as Heidi at Blustag's sire, and the litter brother to Jodie at Blustag. So Jodie at Blustag is also an F1 and Heidi and the "Little litter" are F2 wolfdogs. So Whitefang is Valko and Jodie is Henki, who both were listed as wolfdogs on Blustag's old website (while Blustag lived in Finland), which can still be accessed through web archives: http://web.archive.org/web/200606211...gs/wolfdog.htm Blustag has also publicly announced that they owned wolfdogs from Boogie: http://tamaskan-dog.com/uk/Articles/nowolfable.htm . I have tried to post this piece of evidence on the TDR forum, but the post got removed immediately, I was banned and a topic started right away to just attack me on a personal level, not address the issue itself. I have tried many times to post on the TDR forums but they have always removed me and the posts.

Have you been to our FB group: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=...d=176807493391 There you can find photos of the dogs in questions and also of Oskari, Boogie, Valko, Henki and their littermates etc.

If any of you need more information, please contact me or join our FB group (we welcome everyone no matter how you feel about tamaskans or our research). I will try to help with any questions you have regarding this, but please be patient if I dont get back to asap, I have so many people contacting me it is taking me quite a few hours a day just to write emails... :lol:

All the best to you all,

Tuuli Salmi

Interesting to me that the Tamaskan dog thing is causing a flurry... ALL DOGS are wolves, technically, and aren't WE the ones saying that CsVs are DOGS not wolves?
Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.
So, if they used CsVs after F5, they are using DOGS, right? The only lie, technically, is saying there is no "wolf" in them - as all dogs are wolves... not because of their use of CsV genes...
Personally I would think CsV genes would IMPROVE the breed, but I am biased.
As an aside, really the Sibe and Malamute folks should be annoyed - they were really the first breeds to look wolfy...

I think the issue (the way I see it) is less of "wolf blood" (although that's what you hear) and more about temperament. The foundation of these dogs, from what I understand, are dogs with very watered-down drive, so the goal is a nice, even tempered, family dog that's easy to train and manage. Since the CsV is so "close" to wolves, and since they're bred with work/sport more in mind, they have a much higher drive and a rougher personality to deal with. In short, the Tamaskans should be "easy" dogs to own where CsVs take a lot of work and dedication. Learning about both breeds, this is the reason I've settled on the CsV as being the dog in my future. I personally feel dogs should be bred, and especially new breeds should only be created, for a real working function, or preservation of a past function. The Tamaskans (from my point of view) are the equivalent of watering down a breed for show, only these people are doing so deliberately to make a good house pet instead of it just being a byproduct of the show ring. (Honestly, don't see the point, there are plenty of perfectly good pet dogs around, no need to make more! But I digress...)

In addition to that, it's the flat out lying about it that should get people riled up! :evil: It doesn't help in the slightest to establish a "breed" based on falsified pedigrees!


Oh, & editing to add that as a Sibe person the breed does bother me a bit, but only because they're using Sibes to breed dogs without working function, not because of looking "wolfy"! :lol: Tamaskans are using the "wolfy" appearance as a marketing gimmick, really. Sibes & Mals are functional working dogs that happen to look "wolfy". ;) Big difference! And honestly, if the breed were to become popular, I'd breath a little sigh of relief, because a Tamaskan would make a MUCH better housepet than a Sibe, and all too often people wanting a "wolfy" dog will run out to the first BYB Sibe breeder they can find. It's sad seeing so many dogs wind up in shelters or worse because people picking dogs just for "wolfy" appearance don't know what they're getting in to, and get in way over their heads.

CsV is one case, pure wolf another. Both have been used to created Tamaskans. It is not the CsV/wolf percentege I am doing this for, it is the fact that people havent been told about these infusions. I.e. they have been misled to believe that the breed has been created from GSD, malamute and siberian, which is just not TRUE. I think everyone is entitled to receive the truth and nothing can nor will justify NOT telling people the truth.

I am a sibe person myself and like Vicky cannot understand people who get sibes and dont work them. They are a working breed. There are enough pet breeds already. IMHO every siberian that is bred should have some sort of indication of its working ability.

im saddened by that comment :(

im a sibe person too...yes im annoyed :evil: and no...sibes are meant to be foxy not wolfy :roll:

funny.. in england we have all three of these crosses... all supposedly containing the same 3 breeds all looking completely different...2 of them having csv added then suddenly breed to type!!

i dont want sibes or csv's used in this way :evil::(:evil:

No one wants to see their working dogs "watered down" - we have the same issue in Belgian Malinois (I have 2) and German Shepherds (I have 1), AND in Malinois we have the same issue of falsified pedigrees. No offense to any Dutch folks, but in the Malinois world it is common knowledge that the Dutch Malinois are mixes and one can never trust what is written on a pedigree - and even one famous French-bred dog, who appears in 95% of all Malinois pedigrees today NEVER ACTUALLY SIRED A LITTER.
That said, I heartily DISAGREE that all dogs should be bred for a working purposes. Honestly, nowadays, most dogs ARE PETS. There are no more 300 sheep flocks to watch over, we don't need to subsist on wild-caught game, or have dogs retrieve ropes to anchor ships.
Why are most dogs in shelters? Because of behavioral problems - many of which stem from the fact that the dog was too drivey and not able to be managed properly to channel that drive. The family wanted a PET. That is the new work of dogs. As we get further and further from our agrarian roots, dogs do too. Breeding for working drive, and not having a "market" for such is a serious issue. It's one reason I have never bred my Malinois. Not enough good homes for their "drive" requirements.
On the flip side, I am not worried about placing my German Shepherd's pups. Though they are drivey enough to do Schutzhund and Herding, among other working venues, they are also calm enough to place appropriately into "pet" homes. And 90% of such litters go to pet homes.
So why is it wrong for someone to want a gorgeous pet? Sheesh, if there wasn't a market, there would BE no Tamaskan dogs. So for you serious Sibe folks, be HAPPY someone is providing a "wolf-like" dog with a soft temperament for pet homes. Then they are not watering down your Sibes.
Tell me, how often do you have to harness up your dogs and bring supplies out to far-flung Arctic encampments? Even Sibes don't have a "job" anymore! And the folks who DO long-distance sledding often mix Sibes with hounds and other breeds as pure Sibes apparently do not work as well as mixes. But those mutts are actually WORKING, so was it wrong to for the true working-sledding folks to create a better sledding mix rather than using pure-bred Sibes?
Just food for thought. Certainly I do not want to see CsVs watered down, but I certainly cannot fault someone for wanting a beautiful pet. I also do not fault those same people for not going to the pound and "rescuing" someone else's garbage. I worked at a local SPCA for almost 10 years, and the dogs dumped there where discarded for a reason. Who wants to inherit a dog who bites, poos all over itself or other (insert bad habit)? Not only that, but aesthetics play a part. If I like a "wolfy" looking dog, why would I adopt a pitbull mix? Just because it is politically correct to adopt from a shelter? Think about it. Honestly. Ask yourself these same questions. Part of the reason we are attracted to a particular breed is also because we know there will be certain behavioral traits in that breed that we like. With a shelter dog, you have absolutely no clue what your are getting.
I am not advocating AGAINST shelter dogs - I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, because people tend to get on their high horse and criticize others, when in fact, when it comes right down to it, they would do the same thing...

My Siberian is "someone else's garbage" that came to us crate trained, housebroken, with basic obedience and house manners. Sure, he had some rough edges to work out, but all in all, he came as a fantastic dog.

I think people looking to trash shelter dogs so quickly haven't really taken the time to look for a dog. You don't go rushing out to the first breeder you see, do you? Then why would you do the same when it comes to shelters/rescues? You're much more likely to find a suitable dog for a pet home via a reputable shelter that tests their dogs rather than having the same family get a puppy that may or may not fit their situation. Just because there's a "market" for dogs does not mean they should be bred. I'm sorry if I sound elitist, but it's just how I feel, dogs should either have a current job (like Alaskan Huskies, the mutts used in sprinting) or should be bred to preserve a breed. You're right, huskies and mals aren't used so much, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't still be bred to standard and preserved. It's "breed preservation" not "breed to fill puppy demand," that's what mills do.

What do you mean by that, do the same thing? It's not a matter of switching breeds entirely based on temperament, it's about adopting the dog that, although it's a breed that NORMALLY would be drivey, the dog has a temperament that doesn't fit with the normal standard. You can get this somewhat (like you even said) with pet-quality dogs from a good breeder, but you can get an even better match with a rescue pet that has been tested and found to fit in your particular situation. It's about doing the legwork to actually find a dog that fits for you, not glancing once and giving up because "they don't have the right dog," so you run out & buy a puppy. The rescue we got my husky from constantly has mixes that look wolfy, and a lot of them have nowhere near the drive that "standard" dogs would have. The only reason I would EVER get a dog anywhere other than a shelter/rescue would be if I had a specific job or sport that I wanted to do with that dog, because THAT'S the reason (the way I see it) to go to a breeder. Pet dogs are EVERYWHERE.

i have no problem people wanting a 'pet' i have one of these types (northern inuit)..but its beyond me how a dog made out of 3 possibly 4 driven working breeds will fit this scenario...not even knowing which traits will surface and in what way :-(

You were very lucky that your Sibe was house-broken, etc., and had very few issues. Having worked at the SPCA local to me in NJ for 10 years, I can say that your experience is not necessarily the norm. So why did you pick a Sibe? Why didn't you adopt a more common "shelter" breed like a mutt? BECAUSE you liked the SIBE, not the Lab/Shepherd mixes that are all too common in shelters these days.
That said, I also have volunteered for Malinois rescue for many years - people who adopt our Mals could just as easily get a mutt from the pound, but they don't - they like Malinois - whether it's aesthetics or not. So I don't preach that there are enough pets in shelters for them to adopt... it is infrequent to find certain breeds in shelters - probably due to lack of overall numbers in the area. I can say the whole I time I was working in the shelter only a handful of purebred Sibes every came through our doors.
So I don't fault someone who wants a pet of a certain breed and seeks out a breeder, rather than adopting a shelter dog.
I adopted dogs from the shelter where I worked. Not always easy. So eventually I decided to research breeds I liked so that I could find a dog with character traits I wanted in a package that I liked.
Do I disagree - there are NOT good pet dogs that people want "everywhere" - that's exactly why Tamaskans came about. All breeds were created from some root stock - our own CsVs are bred from GSDs - just because it was a government program originally does not make it better or worse than someone going ahead and developing the Tamaskan.
And why NOT develop a breed just for companionship? Most of the Toy Group fit that.
My point is, so what is wrong with developing the Tamaskan? It more than certainly is NOT preventing the adoption of all the pit mixes in the shelter right now - the people who want a Tamaskan won't be the ones who adopt a mutt, or even a Sibe, for that matter - they want a Tamaskan. The same reason I wanted a Vlcak - hey, there are more wolf-hybrids available - and I could rescue one of those but I didn't want one - I wanted a Vlcak. I didn't want a pit mix or any other mutt. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but they are not right for me.
I am tired of people criticizing others for wanting and promoting purebred dogs over rescuing shelter dogs. In my experience, one really has nothing to do with the other. And when it comes right down to it, those same folks tend to have their breed preferences, too... that's what I meant by my comment. A lot of those same critical folks are just as selective of the dog they bring into their home, so why the criticism? A little hypocritical to me.

here in England culling is not acceptable and the breeders of these dogs sell on most of the pups without neutering being enforced,they breed for what they think will look like a wolf,not very typy at all,all have different temperaments..basically a alot of crossbreed dogs,bred to order,bought on an impulse and discarded either,when bred from, or are too hard to handle...its my opinion in this day and age it is not ethical to breed dogs purely for looks,when there are enough crosses and purebreeds already to fit the purpose.

im talking ni's and 'ute's that we have here all with the same said mix as the tamaskan..where all these crosses start to breed to type is when they add csv...the breed (csv)isnt established in its own right here yet!

My point is, every breed gets a start somewhere - and there is a demand for dogs with good pet temperaments - certainly more of a demand for that nowadays as opposed to dogs that work.
Getting into a flurry over Tamaskan dogs is not going to change a thing. I would prefer to focus on this issues in our own breed.
I don't like to be judgmental about things like that - especially since, truth be told, I LIKE certain "created for pets" breeds like the Alaskan Klee Kai... they are adorable! And I think the world is a better place for having them in it.

Tuuli - Thanks for the information. I was wondering when they would DNA test Whitefang to one of his offspring to conclusively make evidence.

Luna's mom et al; PB mixing issues asides, I agree that whatever dogs they use as a foundation to their breed is their business.

HOWEVER, marketing a dog as not having wolf content when it clearly does - and has some high-content ones at that (F2s etc) - is a lie and really should not be done, especially if that is the main selling point. If you are marketing your dog as an alternative to a wolfdog, then by principle it cannot have any wolf content. It is just not ethically correct to mislead people this way. It is not about purebreds, mixes, or otherwise.

Furthermore, you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health problems, etc.

There are many people buying Tamaskan dogs because they have been led to believe that these dogs do not have wolf content and therefore they don't need to deal with everything that is typically associated with one - including legal ramifications. This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible to mislead people concerning this area.

You are right when you say that as CSV people we consider CSVs dogs, but we are also upfront about there being the inclusion of wolf in the breeding.

Legally, I don't think they are "lying" - in our own words, we promote CsVs as dogs. Technically, all dogs are descended from wolves. In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.
There are other breeders who do similar - www.noblepawz.com
You have to really pry to determine whether or not there is recent wolf in the "breed" as the breed creator sort of uses a lot of fast talk...
The bottom line is that people are going to buy what they want, and demand is what moves the market.

No, no, that's the problem. It's not just CSVs they've used, but actual pure wolves. Like 'Whitefang', a certified Interior Alaskan Tundra wolf. And recent, too. And, some deny the use of CSVs at all.. instead representing where Oskari falls as a purebred Siberian Husky (which CSVs are clearly not, both temperamentally and otherwise)..

And again, it's not about the content or what not, it's about being upfront about pedigree information. It's about correctly representing the dog.

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

You can when you change the name on the pedigree on whitefang's offspring, and list him as an unknown breed.. even when one of said offspring's littermates tested DNA positive for having whitefang as a sire....:?

Sounds like Dutch Malinois...

Sorry but Whiteang is Valco but is no wolf. This is a picture and everyone can see that its no wolf.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...1.jpg?download
Jos

Sorry, my mistype - Whitefang is not a wolf, he is a F1 wolfdog out of an Alaskan Tundra/Interior wolf sire and Sibe mother.

An Alaskan Tundra wolf looks like this:

http://longhairedhippy.livejournal.com/387530.html

(go half way down the page).

And this:
flickr.com/photos/10755025@N06/3294104949/

yOU SAY, QOUTE-you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health including ............ This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible

First if Valco is no wolf they used no wolf when the breeder of Valco is Polarspeed. Then he was the one who breeded a wolf in a husky. But who can prove Valco comes from a wolf? You now Polarspeed or Yescoline couse then you now you cannot thrust his breeding and no one nows about what he does couse he simply doesnot tell anyone.
Second i do not untherstand the isseu about potential health or dangerous please explain are wolves dangerous?
And you do not need to explain me what a wolf looks like i have a polar wolf and Kapatian wolves and mixes and i now exactly what they look like.
I also saw Tamaskan and the so called F2 and i find no signals that tell me it is a hybrid. At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect.
Jos

Yes, it would be the breeder at Polarspeed who bred Valko. Maybe we should DNA test Valko to the perspective sire? ;)

And secondly I have never said 'wolves are dangerous', simply that lying about their pedigree is. It is dangerous for a variety of reasons including legal reasons and health knowledge. If the pedigrees are not forthcoming about the types of dogs used, then it is harder to isolate potential health problems commonly known to all breeds. If it is indeed true, for example, that GSDs were used as a foundation to Tamaskans, then breeders should be wary about the potential of Degenerative Myelopathy, for one.

Additionally, if a dog is not generations removed from wolf ancestry, it is illegal or requires a permit to own in many places and many countries. That is what is DANGEROUS. For both the dog and the owner, who can face the animal being confiscated, put down, fines, or otherwise. If Valko is a F1 wolfdog and Jodie at Blustag is his daughter, that would require a permit to own her.

You said, "At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect."

I have never said that nobody was happy with their Tamaskan dogs or that they were somehow trouble prone?

And i never said that you have said .... i made a statement about the people i spoken to. A F1 or F2 doesnot belong to normal dogowners. But i did not now of such case. And if Valco is from a wolf that is, so i asume, just an rumor. And when it is a wolfdog is used that after F3 til F5 (depends on what state) it is asumed to be a dog. Actually i do not realy care and would like a bit more wolf. But the Tamaskan should look like a wolf and i like a dog being natury build like a wolf and when it behaves like a familydog who cares. And DS have far more genetic mistakes then the few you mension.
Now days genetic experts claim every dog has 300 till 400 genetic mistakes and by close breeding like inbreeding you wil get sic dogs finaly. So mixing is only better then pure breeddogs. But for some mistkes like DM you can test the breeding dogs. So if the breedirs are smart...
Jos

In the USA (where we certainly have Tamaskans), a wolfdog/hybrid is considered anything <F5. These are the guidelines from the American Humane Society, who heavily influence our animal laws. Many states take it a step further - if the owner represents the dog as a hybrid to an official (vet, animal control, police officer, etc.) , it can be confiscated, or even worse, if it bites someone, it can be euthanized to have it's head tested for rabies. There is one case I can recall in my state where a 100% dog (didn't look anything like a wolf even!) was put down because the owner bragged to his vet that he had a wolfdog...he later said it was only a lie to impress friends, but it didn't save the poor dog. :(

Further, the behaviors one can expect from a wolfdog, or methods to use to train it or house it are often different or modified from what we use in regular dogs - not to be passed to an inexperienced owner looking only for a simple companion. I think it is important as an owner to know what is there in a dog...whether it be husky, wolf, CSV or otherwise - until a consistent level of recognized homogenity conformed to a standard can be reached.

So a wolfdog CWD or SWD is a dog >F5. A wolf is not used and if a F2 or 3 was used it is not wise and should not come to inexperienced owner but very experienced owner. We agree.
And I believed in USA it was where the hybrides ar being bred.
Jos

Yep, we have plenty of hybrids here. Some are bred legally - in some localities (very few) there is no regulation on breeding them. In others it is okay to own them with a permit, which usually carries very strong rules. Many hybrid breeders try to stay "under the radar" - using their wolfdog's lineage as a selling point to potential owners, but telling vets and officials they own a malamute or husky mix to avoid legal problems. In any case, the enforcement of animal laws in the US is very relaxed compared to the standards I have seen in Europe. So in most cases, breeders who wish to remain under the radar can, and continue their breeding with very little oversight of authorities - and sell to whoever. :(

CSVs are an anomaly here in the US- legal, but certainly a risk to the CSV's safety if their owner represents them as being a wolfdog or some kind of hybrid, because most of the general public - even officials - has no clue about them because they are so rare...it's very important for owners to know the legal ins and outs of the breed, to closely abide by all laws, keep careful records of their dogs, and act responsibly. With recent wolf blood - even past F5, Tamaskan owners have to think about these same things, maybe more so since no major registry recognizes them, and they have no official papers as proof - which they would not if there were no recent wolf heritage. If they are unaware, and they meet an official who "has heard" about the breed...it could cause real danger for the dog.

You wanna see a real Alaskan Tundra wolf? Look here, this picture was made in the Alaska Tundra http://alaskaone.com/wildlife/images/wolf.jpg

These wolves from lobopark are arctics!

Luna´s mom is completely right, most people look for pet dogs. And in history most people had dogs for pet dogs. There are only a few working dogs. And sure the dogs who have more working abilites end in shelters, because they are hard to handle. A good breeder would never give a working dog, it does not matter, if gsd, mali or Briard to a family who only wants a pet. But there are lots of breeder who do not care.

I am wondering about these rumors that Polar Speed has wolfblood inside. Gossip. And this so called F 1 Alaska Tundra Siberian Mix.... Hm, people do not make things interesting which are not worth to talk about it.

In his newest studies world wide leading genetic professor from University of California Bob Wayne found out that even in the ancient dog breeds who are older than 500 years like Basenji, Saluki, Malamute, Siberian Husky, Chow Chow are wolf genes in them. So are these wolfdogs too? It is a lack of knowledge which leads the people to head cinema.

Lunas Mom is right, if there are people who like "pet" wolfy looking dogs that if csw breeders are not able to bring them down, let other people investigate and develop new breeds. For comparison I started in dog world with Briard - Berger de Brie, french Herding dog -. In france these dogs were more aggressiv and working line. In germany the breeders were succesful in changing Briards to real pet dogs for families. And nobody is complaining, less problems more happy people. The society is changing and wants only nice dogs. So why hanging in standards and not looking for nice kind dogs. In italy the dogs are changing like my comparison with german Briards more to pet dogs because they are selection faster because of more puppies. That is the normal way of breeding.

By the way all of you who are complaining about "hybrids" please have a look on facebook in my videos or my website about my american wolfdogs. They are quite friendly and handsome with strangers, strange dogs and I like them very much as pet dogs and for doing sports as jogging, biking and swimming. And I have of course two csw as well and everyday again the comparison. It is as ever in life have a look for the good ones, means the good breeders, it does not matter which breed.

And of course you find in a shelter good dogs. My two male dogs were shelter dogs. And I took them because I could see the good things in them which are quite more than the bad things. With the puppy you will never know what genes will make out of him. Ok, I am an experienced dog owner so that I can decide which dog is "good" or not. But now a days I will always prefer a rescued dog.
Good night
Christian

Wanna know how a real Alaskan Tundra wolf looks? Here an complete article published in "International Wolf" the magazin from biggest wolf club in the world the International Wolf Center http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/iwma...tundratime.pdf . They linked it for the net.

At the end there fotos. Please make the comparison, they look different the "arctics called Tundra". Have fun! The learning of a human being never stops.

All the best
Christian

I'd have an easier time believing the 'no wolf tamaskan' site or what ever its called, if it wasn't for the fact that the new aatu tamaskan breeders who continuously bang on about all of this, didn't appear to be such hypocrits.

They say high content wolfdogs and csvs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan, and by the way they write, it would appear that that is an issue for them so, one has to ask if indeed their claim is true, and they indeed have an issue with it, then why on Earth are they contacting breeders of csvs to see if they can use a male for stud, there was also mention of them looking at using the dogs bred by noble paws, I think someone posted a link to their site earlier on here. Are those dogs not wolfdogs, or at least, they're claimed to be, so again, if wolfdog in the tamaskan is an issue, then why are they using wolfdog or planning to, in their new aatu tamaskan?

They say, that the original tamaskan is plagued with health issues, and that they're going to fix the problems in their new breed. However, one of their founder studs is a monorchid, one founder bitch is from lines known to produce epalepsy, the first litter of aatu tamaskan born in the USA was from a stud without full health test results, and thats if he is indeed the sire, there is some speculation as to that.

Just as a point of interest, their new breed is called the aatu tamaskan yes, tamaskan, you know the breed they dedicate sites to slagging off, well the original breed is so bad that they'd like to keep the name association...If it was me, and the breed was as bad as they claimed with regards to health etc, then I'd want to distance myself as much as possible from that wouldn't you. Just to add to it, they seem fond of dropping the aatu part of their new breeds name, and refer to them as tamaskans, of course, that isn't going to cause confusion is it?.

Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, then I don't know what is.

P.s.
Where is the solid proof of the dna evidence that is being claimed. I was also under the impression that there wasn't a test for wolf content, as both domestic dog and grey wolf dna is so similar, that it is near impossible to tell by a dna test if a dog does contain recent wolf content or not. Apologies if that is wrong, it has been a while since I looked into the subject, so science may have progressed since then.



Taz

You are right, there is no test, how much wolfconten is inside. I am in contact with Bob Wayne who is worldst best genetic in wolves.

Sure it is true there is some wolfblood from csw inside Tamaskan. To be honest, for me it is not a breed yet. There are people mixing everything together with all they are maybe getting. I had an question too, if they could use my male csw. And of course they did even ask noblepawz. But Sky would never allow mating one of her dogs such Mixdogs. This shows me only that these people do know nothing about wolfdogs. And when you say that they are using even "ill" dogs so no one should buy one. I wrote already that there are enough lines of wolfish looking csw which behave more family like and less working like. I would really much prefer.

Christian

Agree, I'd much rather have a csv too, and hopefuly I will do one day.

I would also agree that they're more of a type than a breed, like the rest of the wolf lookalikes. However, when compaired to those other lookalikes they do appear to produce more consistancey in their breeding.

Here in the uk we've got all the different types of lookalikes. They all started off with the same foundation stock, but at various times people broke away from the founder clubs, set up their own, mixed different breeds into their lines, changed the name, and then again people from those new groups broke off taking their dogs and starting the process all over again. So at present we've got the:

Northern inuit dog. Consisting of Siberian huskie, Alaskan malamute possibly, gsd, some random imported mixes from the USA of unknown parentage, some claim wolf or high content wolfdog, there was even a thought that they could have been mastiff added in as well. But basicly, people don't really know, and when you consider that the type is only around 20 years old, and one of the founder breeders is still very much living, you'd think there wouldn't be such confusion. Thats before we even get to the health problems, level of inbreeding, pedigrees that aren't worth the paper they're written on, lack of breeding ethics, etc etc. Basicly, its all one great big mess.

British inuit dog/british wolfdog. Northern inuit with the addition of csv or swh.

Timbre dog. As far as I'm aware, thats basicly anything that looks remotely wolf like in appearance.

Utonagan. Northern inuit with the addition of collie, not sure if anything else was added.

British utonagan. New break away group from the utonagan. Utonagan with the addition of the original founder breeds, siberian huskie, alaskan malamute, gsd, northern inuit, though they say they're not going to add collie again. They're also considering other breeds but don't know what they are, maybe bsd.

Tamaskan. Don't suppose I need to explain that one.

Aatu tamaskan. Refer to earlier post.


Taz

Well, again, it'll be buyers that dictate the market. People may breed the dogs, but if there are no buyers, they will not continue...
I would think a Saarloos would fit the bill if someone wanted a wolfy dog with a soft temperament and a predictable "look"... plus, then they could actually DO stuff with their dog as it is a "breed" and not just something someone cooked up.
I would bet that part of the reason there is an interest in a wolfy looking dog with no wolfy "ness" is the shy behavior. Most people want a friendly "wolf" - according to what I have heard, many Saarloos are shy... perhaps part of why they are not as sought after? And CsVs do not make the best pets for the average person...

I believe no wolfdogs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan but lateron couse of health and inbreeding risk looked for new blood. I also believe now they wouldn't want an CWD any more couse they are bred for using agression. They could be interested in Saarloos. But i listened to breeder who likes sleddogs and others who want an pet or family-dog. But they need to look like wolf. Funny is the wolf look alike claims now wolf and roomers say its part wolf and AWD claim 70-98% are mostly not really like a wolf but behave much like a dog. You just can't do it wright.
Jos

Could you explain, please?

Explain what? Why i believe this. Thats what i heard from several Tamaskan owners. Or do you mean explain why i believe a CWD is more agressive then a Saarloos.
Jos

Explain what you understand by "CWD are bred for using agression".
CSVs aren't lambs, but the word "agression" has lots of meanings. I was just wondering what you had in mind. I know breeds far more agressive than CSVs8)

That's the problem with the word "agression". I did'nt mean agressive dog couse almost all dogs are bred for using agression, defence and quarding. All terriers are bred for using agression. CWD was bred for bording defence and had to be willing to attack. Thouh that may sound bad it is what it is.
A wolf or mix would therefor go back. A CWD compared to a Saarloos is also a differnce. A CWD would faster attack then a Saarloos. I did not use the word dangerous couse a Jack Russel is more agressive but easyer to shake of when hanging in your leg. I do not want to use the word dangerous couse evey horse can hurt you as well.
I must say i love dogs and dogs love us aswell. So i don't want to give dogs a bad name couse they are men's best friends. Mostly they are our help and companions. So don't get me wrong.
Jos

Agression :D:rofl3:rofl3:rofl3 :lol: Lollllllll

Quote from CsV FCI Standard

Best regards / Mikael

Italian bred CSVs...the most aggressive of all!:twisted:
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...08582197030818
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...08667466575714

Aggression is not a bad thing. It is the willingness to use force for defense. Our vlcaks must have that in their make-up as that was the whole purpose - to develop a dog that would defend the Border, aggressively if NEEDED. INAPPROPRIATE or uncontrolled aggression is a bad thing - and this can happen with poor character in just about any breed.

:o Oooooooo, so so cute :smileyb... But where is the mother :( ???

PS, Yes Bongo is very good example of agressive CsV :D:rofl3:D DS.

Best regards / Mikael

I didn't say it was, but for me
is bad. People who train dogs for dog fighting breed those dogs for "using agression".

Most honest CSV breeders attempt to breed dogs which would have trainable characters, i.e. their natural aggression would be under control and used for rational purposes only. Remember that the standard says that CSV should be "versatile in his uses" (sic!) as well as "lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions, fearless and courageous.". Nothing about agression as such, though definietely a shy dog will not be able to meet the standard requirement. I.e. if shyness is to be considered the opposite of agression, which for me makes no sense anyway* :rock_3:).

That's why I asked what Jos meant and I think he meant the requirements of the standard, only used ambiguous wording.

* Shyness & agression come from the same source: insecurity. A dog that has good character after his parents, is well trained and self-confident is neither shy, nor agressive

I didn't mean now it is selective breeding for be able to use force or agression. But i read about the CWD,-
qualities make the Wolfdog perfect for rescue missions and ever since the beginning of its existence it has been used by the border guard, military, police
Temperament,Fearless and courageous.
Shopuld de dog go licking the one to death or attack and bite? What else can you use a dog for at police or millitary.
A Saarloos is more the shy type, and therefor not self-confident but that is a wolf aswell. You can try show pics of friendly rabbit loving dogs but i now other CWD and can show you other pics of a more often showen behavour. I find it more showing less intellegents when you do not now what to do with food.
Jos

"Rabbit- loving dogs..."
 

Originally posted by Joswolf:

"You can try show pics of friendly rabbit loving dogs but i now other CWD and can show you other pics of a more often showen behavour. I find it more showing less intellegents when you do not now what to do with food."

Yes, i think Jos is right here ! For my experience, most CWD will show the natural behaviour when meeting a rabbit at close distance....

In this way , my old CWD was a very typical " rabbit- lover",:):twisted: and my new one - who just has become nine months old - has already the same intentions.

Of course, if you let raise up a CWD together with rabbits ( or with cats or other animals) he will get used to these animals and not hunt or kill them when adult.

But this is not the normal behaviour.

And at last : hunting and agression is of course NOT the same.

From my point of view Jos is right. In comparison to the other two wolfdog breeds, csw are the one who show if it comes to the point aggression. Saarloos and american wolfdogs go back and would not attack. And of course it is standard that a csw should attack, ok when needed.

It is now a days much better, but we had only 5-7 years ago lots of shy but aggressive csw as well. And please people it takes you to nothing to show fotos from dogs who are raised up with their own famly pets as Sylvester already quotes. And it means nothing if you live alone with your csw and do not go in between other dogs and people. The comparison can be make if you see a csw acting in between other dogs. And sorry to say, you can let Saarloos - adult animals I mean - run around without leash, the same with american wolfdogs, but you never would be able to let csw run around free. We did often the comparison.

And now please do not come with your examples of places like Margo in Hokys memorial, there are runing around mostly only family memebers (dogs) who know each other very well.

I mean if a csw comes to a meeting where he does not know other dogs.

Sure you will find it in other breeds to, but that is not the point. We are only talking about the 3 wolfdog breeds and Tamaskan.

Christian

Christian, I showed you photos of CSV running unleashed together, though the majority of them met each other for the first time and except two, were adult. http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...lcaksMeetings#
and asked you for comments. So did Elf in another topic, but you never replied only repeat the same nonsense again and again.

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot :p:)

PS. Anticipating your argument that they were all from the same 'family', I'd like to add that they came from the following kennels: Radov Dvor and Maly Bysterec (Slovakia), z Peronówki, Braterstwo Wilczaków and Cwany Wilk (Poland), od Starkej and Srdcerváč (Czech Republic).

Obviously a lot of people have a lot of halluzinations ;-)

http://a.imageshack.us/img594/9651/2...64provence.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and some more, different occasions, different dogs, different owners and yes, you need an owner that is able to train a dog without the flight reaction of a wild animal.
http://img17.imageshack.us/slideshow...=dsc04956b.jpg

Ina

To Rona -
Aggression is NOT the opposite of shy. Aggression is the "drive" to use force to meet a situation. Prey drive (chase, capture, kill, eat) is aggression, dominance displays, territorial, protection/defense of pack/puppies, FEAR (BAD CHARACTER) based behaviors all carry aggression.
I am speaking strictly as an Ethologist/Behaviorist. Aggression is not bad, and it is a NECESSARY component of most successful species. Who wins the fight? And the winner gets the resources and more chances to reproduce. The Romans did not conquer most of the known world with peace and love, and despite what they preach, neither did Christians. It was aggression.
In dogs, we harness it. We breed to bring it out. As we domesticated wild canids (or really, they domesticated themselves), we decided it was better for us to breed dogs that had aggression levels that trumped their "flight response" - one reason real wolves/high content hybrids are not successful as protection dogs - if you run away, you live to fight another day. Their "resources" are better spent somewhere else!
COURAGE is the opposite of "shyness" - the willingness to engage a threat using aggression.
Again, INAPPROPRIATE, uncontrolled aggression is the danger. Owners who do not understand behavior and allow insecure/dominant dogs to "take over" - FEAR-AGGRESSIVE dogs that have a "low threshhold" for stimulus and will display or even attack when there is really no threat...
CsVs HAD to have a certain level of aggression in order to perform the job they were bred for. This is part of who they are. To breed for a temperament that carries none of this is a disservice to the breed, and really is NOT characteristic of the CsV, IMHO. Might as well have a Saarloos!
That is one reason I am a fan of working titles and temperament tests - to preserve and maintain the working drive of the breed.
I am not advocating breeding solely for a "grip" or a "low threshhold" (a lot of "breeders" do not understand behavior and aggression and breed incorrect temperament thinking that because his fear-aggressive dog display/bites it is indicative of correct character) I see this in Malinois all the time and all it does is produce an unsafe, unbalanced animal. But to remove correct aggression from our breed is wrong, too. A Unicorn without a horn is just a horse... all the magic is lost.

To be sure, Bongo, my rabbit loving dog, had never seen a rabbit before - this one was removed from a cat, wild. He knows the command "leave it". ;-) When he finds rabbits out in the grass, he takes off after them - my dogs all have high prey drive. When I tell him "down" in that situation, he stops running - dead - and drops to the ground. He is also training in Schutzhund - along with my younger male. They have no problem placing their teeth on objects in the possession of people. At my command - and no problem taking their teeth off, at my command. It's not fearful aggression, and it's not necessarily a "natural" behavior - it's positive reinforcement of biting and holding the object in possession of a person - in the case of SchH, a bite sleeve. All of my dogs can be safely released around other stable dogs known or unknown - it's no problem. They don't assume the role of a submissive or shy omega as an AWD frequently does, however. They can all be released off leash around any person at any time, it's no problem for large men, small children or old ladies to play with my dogs - usually strangers, I'm a bit of a hermit :p. Two have received therapy dog certification, Bongo will hopefully recieve his this autumn. All very different lines from distant countries. This is training and socialization - exposing and teaching how to act in all situations. Yes, they are family raised dogs, but with sufficient time spent on their own in runs when I am not at home...aren't most CSVs nowadays?

Marcy,
FYI, in case no one mentioned it - the full grip and stability you see in your dogs' bitework is a manifestation of prey drive. It's in the full, confident grip, the "carry" and the desire to tug it away from the helper. A GOOD thing. Sometimes you will see (typically nervy Malinois or some DDR GSDs) "civil" or "defense" aggression in the sport - there's usually a different-sounding bark - more shrill, LOTS of teeth and spit and often coupled with more shallow grips and a lot of kill-shaking - even on the helper's arm! You will see if the sleeve is thrown, the dog will still want to go after the man - where as a "prey" dog just wants the toy! It is not preferred - not only due to the crappy bite, but also it is a more unstable sort of aggression - needs to be highly controlled.
It isn't always a bad thing, either, though... my first Malinois had a LOT of civil drive, but ONLY in appropriate situations. She was my "ribbon" dog - always placing in the top spots in all sorts of venues, we used her as the local SPCA's Demo Dog for their obedience program, she earned a Canine Good Citizen and even got a Therapy Dog certification. Obviously, she was a very safe dog. On the SchH field, though - make sure you have pants on.

This is exactly, what I claimed 8)

The word "agression" is used (at least in Europe) in several contexts. It can either be used in scintific- ethologist sense, as you use it, or in a "popular" sense, where agressive dogs try to attack/devour every creature they meet. I was just wondering which meaning Jos had in mind and I'm happy with his explanations 8)

I think CSV have strong natural agressive (in the scientific sense!) drives, which make them lively, active, fearless, etc. but since they're versatile, they can be trained to function in versatile environments. Some behaviours are easier to be trained, some - more difficult, but I belive it's just the matter of determination of the owner and the owner-dog relationship :p

Yes, I love that about them, too!
I just wanted to clarify terminology so someone unfamiliar with "aggression" and vlcaks could better understand the true character of the breed as well as the temperament traits we discuss here. Wouldn't want someone frightened away thinking they are ravenous evil beasts (well, Luna is sometimes... :rock_3)...

I think most people think of aggression in the "popular" sense. I think that is why it's used in the standard as a disqualifying term. For me, drive is a more accurate term - aggression is too general, I guess, can mean too many things to the general public. Drive refers to what motivates/initiates a behavior. When people have not trained in protection work and have no clue (most of the general public, and even most dog owners) - saying aggression evokes only thoughts of the "popular" meaning. I found myself clarifying this frequently - to my mother who envisioned her 4 legged grandchildren being made "aggressive" and attacking anything that moved when I told her about my SchH training - or last night to the lady at my "meet-the-breed" presentation who described evil, aggressive dogs she had seen in protection work, as she hugged all over Bongo (complete stranger) who licked her profusely - as he does everyone in everyday situations - and without thinking or asking, opened his mouth to see his long canine teeth...:)

I know what you mean... whenever I try to answer the question "how it's possible that the dog looks like a wolf", the first reaction is: "is she agressive?":)

A couple of days ago we were passing a young man, who suddenly slowed down and walked staring intensly at Lorka... when they caught eye contact she jumped and gave him a warm greeting with a "kiss", which she doesn't do any more to strangers. I apologised and we started talking. It turned out he was German. He asked if this was a CSV, because, as he said, he was fascinated with the breed and it was the first CSV he saw live. He was exetremely surprsied that Lorka was so friendly and not shy at all, because when he called some German breeder to enquire about a pup some time ago, he was told CSVs are very shy, often agressive and unsuitable to live in a town... I wonder which German breeder it was... :rock_3:)

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

Agree! It's not easy, maybe not every dog can be trained but one should not generalize that it's impossible if there are cases/stories/witnesses/photos, etc. which show the opposite.

I just don't undersand people who always 'know best' but derive their knowledge solely from their own exprience.:p:lol:

Rona, I know you are one of these csw people who always do not want to understand what I write. My experienced is not only based on my dogs but on about 15 csw meetings with about 400 csw! My experienced is based on 4 meetings with other wolfdog breeds about 150. My experienced is based by walking csw on doggie places in different cities with other dogs!

I made a comparison to all and than I made my mind up! And not only based on my own dogs. By the way Tala I can let run everywhere and he will come when I call him. Myla is of course a bit difficult because she has a really strong mind and character and those animals are always more difficult.

By the way I used to live for 2 years with 6 "normal" dogs and I did not even train them and they listened to every "looking" from me! Maybe you do not have a lot experience with different kinds of dogs and wolfdogs, only with your city dogs. I can not understand people who are not able to be honest in csws! That is the point that many people have problems with that breed. Sorry to say.

CSWs are in the breed themselves very different. Because one are more gsd and one are more wolf. It is logical because they are much more closer to wolf than any other normal dogbreed. So even in one litter the animals can behave different despite from individual character which every animal have too.

I know it is useless to discuss it with you Rona. You wear the one and only csw glaces and what ever will be posted from your opinion "against" (but it is not against what I write I only want the people to know what normally happens so that they are prepared and do not get unhappy with it, because there are people who gave than their dog away), you will come with your own experience. But sorry, your experience is small because I doubt that you know american wolfdogs and Saarloos in meeting.

Christian

Sorry Christian, but it's you who don't understand what I'm writing.

I never said that my experience with wolfdogs was big. In reaction to your repeated claim that it's impossible to raise a CSV so that he/she would be able to run unleashed and play with other dogs when adult, I'm just describing what I've seen with my own eyes: the owners of Argo od Starkej, Kanti Radov Dvor, Evan Braterstwo Wilczakow, etc. can recall their dogs when they need when the dogs are running on public meadows. In other words, your statement is not 100% valid. But since you seem to be deaf to arguments, further discussion is a waste of time :|

I don't think it matters if the dogs've been raised in the city or in the countryside, but how they're raised, what the priorities of the owners were, how much effort they put in training and it also depends on the character of a specific individual. I never said that it was easy or natural for CSV to act golden retrievers.

Tamaskan Dog
 

Hello everyone,
I have been very interested in this thread and although it was sometime ago I thought I would register on this forum and comment on it. A little background information about me first, I absolutely love wolves but living in California is not the best place to own or even see a wolf. I am looking to buy my first Tamaskan Dog for their close resemblance and their laid back personalities and are very easy to train. Other important qualities are that they are a bigger type dog and are very active and love the outdoors such as myself.
I have been and am still researching about the breed trying to find out as much as possible about their background. Someone mentioned the name of Bluestag and about the TDR, Tamaskan Dog Register. I found this website to be interesting and maybe useful or not to others http://tamaskantruth.com
As for me, which is bias, I am thankful for the Tamaskan line. I can get the dog I have dreamed of without bringing all of the "real wolf" blood line qualities with it. Please let me know of any information or concerns you may have:)

Ah yes, I remember that website.

Reminds me that one of the main people responsible for it some time ago said they have actual proof of there being wolf in the TDR tamaskan lines.
They also said that they would provide the proof, for all to see.

Now, as the proof has to my knowledge never been provided to back up their claim, it gives me two reasons to play with as to why this is:

1. They've got the universes slowest scanner.

2. They were talking a load of bs and never had the proof to begin with.

Which do you all think is most likely?

They complain about the possible use of csvs and high content wolfdogs in the tamaskan lines, but are quite happy to try and use some of these dogs themselves.

Pot, kettle, black.


Taz

Tazer - As of last year a dog out of a Blustag kennel litter was proven by DNA link to be the progeny of the F1 wolfdog Valko aka Whitefang, as stated by Tuuli at post #2 (with scans of the DNA results).

As I understand the complaint is transparency, or lack thereof, not that wolfdogs are not to be used per se.

Taz, please check this out and I know some finish people who saw the developement of these F1 and F 2 animals, children from Boogie and Husky Blondie personally and I know some of the dogs.

So, please check this out:

The person behind the "No Wolf Tamaskan" -website is Tuuli Kontio (former Salmi), who helped Lynn Hardey (former Sharkey; the English woman / breeder of Blustag -kennels) to buy the dogs from Reijo Jaaskelainen @ Polarspeed kennels.
While Lynn lived in Finland, they were friends with Tuuli.
Lynn bought and owned Valko and his sister "Henki" (nowadays Jodie at Blustag) while living in Finland, but though she imported Henki (Jodie) into UK with her when she moved back there, she left Valko behind. Valko went to a Finnish wolfdog breeder, who made several litters out of him. From one litter Lynn picked up a puppy and imported to UK. She strictly told the breeder not to ever tell anyone she bought a puppy out of that litter.

There is no doubt that Valko is a son of Boogie. Also the DNA tests that were made of Valko and a Tamaskan dog imported to Finland (bred by Lynn in UK) were made in the same laboratory in Finland, that makes the official DNA testing for Finnish Kennel Club. It is absurd to claim that the test was manipulated / incorrect, since it is in no way possible to manipulate those tests in that laboratory. And how in eart they could have gotten a positive test result here in FIN, if the true parents of that particular Tamaskan dog truly were in UK? To get a positive result, they would have had to get a sample of the parents; in other case it would have been a negative result. If the sire is not Valko, who sent the sample of the "real sire" from UK to the Finnish laboratory? :-D)))
The breeder Reijo Jaaskelainen @ Polarspeed -kennels has also verified that Valko is from a litter out of Boogie & Blondy av Vargevass, and Boogie has several other offspring that look exactly like Valko. I know this since I have seen with my own eyes and I have pictures of them too. Valko's mother was a light grey, pure bred working line Siberian Husky (imported from Norway to Finland; Blondy av Vargevass).
In the litter she had with Boogie, the phenotype of the offspring varied from wolfy to less wolfy. And as knowing genetics, it is no wonder! Valko looked more like a giant Husky/short haired Malamute (without a curly tail) with yellow eyes, but his behaviour was very wolfy, and he has passed on this behaviour also as other wolfy traits.
Some individuals are very wolfy. They have alot features from Boogie, like for example my own Woogie (son of Valko; grand son of Boogie)! If you compare my Woogie and Boogie you will find lots of similarities.

Since Boogie is originally imported from US (Alaska) from the place called Wolfcountry USA that has done high content wolfdog & wolf breeding over several decades, no-one can for sure tell if he is a "pure" wolf (are there really "pure wolves" anywhere in the world; especially in US??). For what I have understood of color genetics, pure white coloring is a recessive trait and therefore it must come from both parents.

Valko was pure white since birth; like Huskies.

Knowing this one could assume that Boogie is not entirely "pure wolf"; that he has to carry the pure white gene to pass it forward.
... are there even such a thing as a pure wolf? We allready know where the black phase coloring to wolves came from. We all know that during their existence the wolf and the dog has ALWAYS mix bred. Where goes the fine line what we should call "pure" and what not?

And even though we would not call Boogie a pure wolf, but a high content wolfdog, it does not change the fact that while having his offspring in their breeding program of Tamaskan dogs, they are lying when claiming they are 'wolfy looking dogs without the wolf''. -You cannot breed animals like Boogie to dogs and sell them as "wolfy looking without wolf"! They are wolfdogs; and of a pretty decent content too!
It is the same problem with the FCI recognized breeds the CsV and Saarloos; if you mix them with wolves / wolfdogs you should not lie to the buyers/owners.
I would totally understand mixing under a superviced breeding program. But when random breeders do it with dishonest ways, it is a hazard to both the dogs and the buyers that are unaware and miss quided of what they are really buying.

I do understand that the people who allready own and breed Tamaskan dogs, are trying to deny the wolf content in their animals, since it was illegal to own such (lower than F5) in UK.
But the truth must be out there for the sake of all the people who are thinking of getting a Tamaskan pup. Most people who take Tamaskans, take them because they want a wolfy dog WITHOUT wolf content. It is not right that what they get is a big fat lie.

And it makes absolutely sence because in former times wolfdogs were not allowed to have in great britain. From 2009 wolfdogs from F 3 are allowed.

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife...waa/hybrid.htm

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife...a-wolfdogs.pdf

But by the way, this is a czechoslovakian wolfdog forum and not about Tamaskan.

christian

Interesting posts thank you. I do live in the uk so was aware of DEFRA's view change with regards to Csvs Swhs and hybrids, but thanks for pointing it out anyway.

Its just so confusing and frustraiting, I've been researching the erm wolf look alike types for several years and the lies, cover ups, half truths, U turns and the apparent pedigree fakings/alterings make it hard to outright believe or not believe anyone.

For an example, in the mid 90s their was a programme on the tv in the uk, a dog was on who's owner claimed him to be an F4 hybrid. Upon being investigated by DEFRA (called something else back then but can't remember what) the dog over night became not a hybrid, so did all the owners other dogs. The owner got off on a technicality and her dogs went on to be called northern inuits, which also apparently have no added wolf content. Yet one of the founder stud dogs, was the very same dog she refered to as an F4 hybrid on the tv.

I recall watching the programme at the time vaguely and have seen it again more recently, it was posted on another forum and is probably still there somewhere.

But yes this is a Csv forum and I should get back to lurking in the csv sections lol. Whilst hoping that one day the uk will get some good, ethical breeders that want to see the breed thrive hear, instead of just a tool to mix with whatever to make money.


Taz

I have no proof of that there is wolf or hybrid in the Tamaskan but I know there is CVs in there and I am the one who has the proof for the SwH.
Why didn't I put that up on internet, just simple I like the breed Tamaskan no matter if it is in there or not.

I just think that people should know but it doesn't make the dogs any less and the thinks about easier to train etc is still true..... so why is all that fighting about it necessary???
Am I ok with that they made false pedigree's? No of course I am not but we all know every breed have issues like that and you just have to know witch breeder you have to take.

Miran, I had wondered if you were the owner of Djoser van Rijnecker Hof!

I don't think the dogs are "any less".. I just don't think it's any way to go about building a 'breed' - in the truest sense of the word, establishing traits that breed true to type - which isn't really possible when the pedigrees are not true and when there are random and secret outcrosses that are covered up by the pedigree issuing body.. Yes, there are dishonest breeders in every breed, but like this?

Surely they are nice dogs though, like all dogs. There is one that is enrolled in obedience class taught by my friend here in the USA.

Hi

I agree with you and that is why I and others asked and talked about it that it was better to let it be in the open.
It is also why I am no longer with the TDR anymore
And yes Djoser v rijneckerhof is my Saarloos and I also have a Tamaskan son out of that nest from it. But I have his real pedigree.
No the dog is no lesser to me because I still think it was a good match if the truth was told about it. What is said on the nofable site that he was a known carrier of DM is not true because we all know that the test for DM for the Saarloos came late 2009 and the pups where already born than. I tested the father and his son later that same year on it and that was the first time we knew. Later it turned out the mother was also a carrier.
Yes this all was very sad but because I tested against what some wanted and advised they know it is in every breed and so they can prevent sufferers like we also try in the Saarloos and the CvS.

I do not condemn every TDR breeder because there are that didn't know about this all and don't agree with it either but doesn't condemn the breed for it. I do also not. I still love the tamaskan for the goal they had in mind and made in my eyes I just can not agree with lying about some lines.

I'd wondered why you hadn't been round the Tamaskan forum lately. I do miss looking at pics of your gorgeous dogs. I did suspect that this was the reason, you were the only one I could think of who owned a saarloos.

I don't think the dogs are any lesser, Tamaskan sound and look like really great dogs. After the amount of times I've heard of breeders within the various wolf lookalike types, finding issues only to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that if they ignore it, it will just magicly go away, its nice to see a group being open about the health issue and taking steps to deal with it.

My only concern with using a Saarloos would be their tendancy towards shyness, nice looking dogs though, but don't think the Swh is the right breed for me.

Taz

I also do not find every Saarloos line an addition to the breed. In temprement I do can say I found him at the time good for that because he isn't shy at all and all of his kids are also not shy at all(Saarloos kids as well)
Not every Saarloos line is shy ;)

And believe me that also the TDR and the TBA had struggles about being open with health issues but I am glad that these days that is going better.

thanks but yes that is one of the reasons but my dogs pics can also been seen on my own website ;)

Nice to read your saarloos isn't shy and that neither is his offspring. The picture that has been painted of the saarloos breed over here is that they're almost all shy and or nervous of unfamiliar people and environments. But then I suspect that is because the dogs that were imported over here (if they are indeed pure saarloos), appeared to be under handled and poorly socialised.

Infact, the original importer described them as all being at various stages of feral. One escaped and gave birth to a pup in a den out in the woods and another was shot because of agression. The escaped one and her pup were recaptured, I've no idea how the pup is doing but from what I last heard, the mother was settled in her home. She was rehomed from the original breeder/owner a couple of years ago now.

Ref tamaskans

Yes I was aware that there wasn't always the same level of transparency with regards to health issues as there is today. The past can't be changed but the future can.

Taz