Short coat defect
 

I would have a question about "short coat defect", dogs who stay like this the whole year:

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/6/...85-9535016.jpg

How does the transmisson works ? Is it "revertable", if for exemple the dog stay outside in a cold winter (i.e. epigenetics transmisson) ?

This coat on photo is not so tragical, maybe is photo made in "summer coat". But you are right now we can see too much dogs with too short coat.

You're right, I wonder about dogs who show same coat also in winter. My dog shows this behaviour, almost same short coat in summer and winter ; the point is it did not append her first 2 years but only after. Winter are not terrible here (last year not less than -5°), and my dog never slept outside, I wonder what is just an adaptation and what is more like a defect/lost ability.

Originally posted by "elf":
"Winter are not terrible here (last year not less than -5°), and my dog never slept outside, I wonder what is just an adaptation and what is more like a defect/lost ability."

Well, i think you already gave the answer to yourself.

It has indeed to do with the circumstances you keep the dog - especially because you wrote this also:

Originally posted by "elf":
"...the point is it did not (h)append her first 2 years but only after. "

This shows that not the dog has lacked the ability to get a long winter coat but only has adapted to the conditions you keep him.

If you would keep him outside during the whole year most time and you would have more cold winter temperatures, i am sure your dog would get another time a fine long winter hair and coat.

Greetings , Silvester

It is one of "my" favourite topics as for many years our Polish dogs were blamed by some breeders from the origin countries for having "short coat"... No wonder - they really had short coat expecially when we presented them in the winter... The reason is not the genetic but the adaptation to the conditions... While (for example) the Czech dogs were sleeping in the kennels by -25° our dogs were spleeping at home by +25°. No wonder there was visible difference in the coat... ;) But it is not possible to explain it - some breeders do not get it because forthem it is still unimaginable that a dog can sleep at home..... :D

The adaptation to the conditions have VERY big influence on the coat. You can judge it only if you know where the dog is living. Because as I wrote - especially in the winter the difference can be huge.

BUT - you are right. There are dogs with (too) short coat. It is visible expecially now because there are some popular (nice) stud dog which unfortunately "give" VERY short coat.

That the difference between standard and short coat. We made an experiment with Botis. He was the one of the 'coutch' dogs "blamed" for having short coat. He stayed for the whole winter in the kennel - believe me: I saw only few dog having so nice - long and thick - coat like him.

But there are dogs which have the same lenght of hair for the whole year. For sure you saw dogs which coat do not change. I saw some of such dogs in every country - if you put them into the kennels in the winter they will not get longer "wolfish" coat. They will be always shortcoated. But the quality of the coat will change - it will be VERY thick.

Here is one more coat test by miss Paula ;)

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8369

Best regards / Mikael

:lol: Yes and I think that was one of the reasan way the owner of Rasty was so happy for her to move to Sweden, now she sleeps in my bed :)

It´s very rear for dogs here to not sleep in the house ;)

Best regards / Mikael

Everything is true what is written here but I wanna add a thing. I have a female and male csw. The female has let us say short coat. She lived 3 years in the house and then 2 years in enclosure because in the new house was to small for 9 dogs. So Myla got in this two winters much more coat. And as Margo wrote, it became thicker, a bit longer but not really "wolfish" long. On the other hand I have Tala. His lines are from fathers side italian. He has much coat. He even does have in summer. In winter much more of course. My personal experience is that the italian dogs have more coat than the rest of the "pack". Funny thing is that in italy it is not so called like in the rest of middle/northern countries. So they managed to breed more the long coated wolfish looks. That looks from my point of view nicer. The only problem is that these dogs "suffer" more in the heat of the summer. But czechoslovakian wolfdogs does not change so "dramatically" their coat like wolves do. You see of course differences, but Wolves got in winter much more coat than in comparison a csw. I do not talk about expception which surely exist in csw world too.

It is a question of genetics which kind of coat the animals will have. You can test it before with the upcoming parents if you want to breed in the one or the other way. Today all is possible.

Christian

Does anyone have any pictures of their dogs in both winter and summer coats? I'd be interested to see the difference in the same dog, from season to season. :)

Hello Vicky ,

i myself do not yet have such pictures but if you look here in the list of wolfdogs under the name :

"Emba von der Wolfsranch"

you can see the photos of this bitch with her winter - as well as with her summer coat, just like you want.

( This dog has a strong difference between winter and summer coat. )

She´s the mother of my new wd. "Zeus Lupus Ibericus" - and living in Spaín - so in a quite hot climate at the moment.
Because my youngster was coming from that place and i´ve got him in the middle of december last year to my - much colder - place in Germany, he has not yet had a real "winter- jacket".

He´s now just 11 months old and i think he will get very strong winter-coat in next winter time, i will put pictures inside here again, ok ?

Have a nice time, bye- bye

Silvester from Germany

Postscriptum
 

In addition to what i wrote just before, i want tell you that in this photos in the eight´s line of pictures from above you can also have a look at the changing of coat during spring time.

"Emba" changes coat almost like real wolf, as you can see.

But i know that a lot of so called "Northern breeds" ,like Huskies, Malamutes and so on do normaly and regularly also just like this -
it depends on the conditions of keeping and climate, like i wrote in my first posting here.

summer
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/16104/
winter in a very cold area, staying much time outside though living in the house
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/8830/
winter in a warm area living in the house
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/88332/

Ina

First - we should make distinction between "is" and "should be".... ;)

You wrote about better coat of the Italian dogs. But take a look on the QUALITY of the coat. Long & thick coat do not mean at the same time "wolfish" and "typical".
I don't want to blame Italian dogs because there are many very nice typical dogs but everybody knows that some kennels there were trying to make "furry" Wolfdogs. But it doesn't worked fine - instead to select the "wolfish" coat the breeders made selection for "longhaired" dogs and the result are dogs which have nice but not typical coat because they selected for the genes comming from the longhaired German Shepherds.
ONLY such longhaired dogs do not shed in the winter and ONLY such wolfdogs surfer in the summer.

Second similar case is the "Husky" coat - some breeder selected dogs which have coat similar to the huskies - such dogs do not have long coat like "longhaired" Wolfdogs but thick and "standing" (the difference is mosty visible on the back legs). They look nice but also: such dogs do not shed properly and do not have typical "wolfish" coat...


"Typical" Wolfdogs shed a lot and there is really huge difference between winter and summer coat. It is really nice visible for example in Slovakia on the dog shows because in the winter the dogs stay outside in the kennels so they live in the similar conditions as the wolves. And if you compare the winter and summer coat of such dogs you will see that the difference is really HUGE. In Poland, Germany and many other countries there difference is not so great visible because the dogs stay at homes and the difference of the temperatures between in the winter (at home) and in the summer (at home) is very small... ;)

about adoptation. if we have one more summer like this... i'm even afraid to imagine :evil:

my guy, winter:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_NpozgxLODyc/S3...uy9X4/vnuk.jpg

spring:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_NpozgxLODyc/S_...720/IMGP1-.jpg

july :evil::

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NpozgxLODyc/TF.../s640/volk.jpg

he even has some places with absolutely bare skin, it's not seen on the photo... :(

Taabernakkelin Jovice in summer:
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...12176438978786
and winter:
http://picasaweb.google.com/galomyoa...39582730456066

Taabernakkelin Hronsek is the same.

Anthea od Vlci Skaly has a shorter coat - it becomes very thick in winter, but not as long. Her coat also isn't quite as waterproof as the above 2, she takes a bit longer to dry, but nothing like my GSD.

I am curious to see how the coat of Wasabogoa will be - he was still going through puppy coat changes last winter.

Adams Morgan has a coat much like his dad.

Dacota in winter:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4236/dacotaorg.jpg

this is the summer coat:
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9...8jetrichov.jpg

you can see a big difference. And I must add, that all my dogs sleep in the house at night!

BIG difference ??
 

Sorry "Dacota" - but where do you see a BIG difference ?

I can only see a quite small difference - especially if you compare these pictures with the other photos from above !

A real big difference one can see by my example from "Emba" or by the pics of "Morian"and "GalomyOak".

Originally posted by "Dacota":
"And I must add, that all my dogs sleep in the house at night!"

Yeah, this might be the reason for NOT so big difference!

Nice sunday to everyone !

Well, I can see a big difference.

Ina

What? Dacota has the coat like the guy from "Morian" in winter. I must know this at the best :roll: She has very much coat in winter and very short coat in the summer time. Maybe the photos doesn't show how it really is or you need glasses 8) :p

I think it's the angle of the photo, it's kind of hard to see. If you take a closer look, though, you notice it. I think if it were more of a side view the difference would come out better.

Thanks so much to everyone posting photos! I really love seeing the differences, especially when taking things like living situations into account.

I´m sorry again ,but the dog "Dacota" is looking on the "winter -picture" like the others in summer coat...

Originally poted by "Dacota":
"Maybe the photos doesn't show how it really is ..."

That might be - why you don´t make public here some more - and may be better - photos ?

Well, I have not so much time to search in 6000 photos ;-):)
I hope, you see this now,
here in winter coat:
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6520/coat.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8678/coat2.jpg

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3479/coat3q.jpg

and now with summer coat:

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3968/coat4.jpg

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8558/coat5.jpg

If you aren't agree, you must believe me or you have to come to visit me in wintertime ;-)

Hey "Dacota"!

Thank`s for sending so quickly more photos first of all ! - You really have 6000 pictures of your dog ? Whaooo...I´m impressed!:rock_3:klatsch

Ok, on your new pictures difference can be seen better than in the first two ones, that´s right. It´s thick coat, but not very long.

Your dog has not so LONG winter coat like Emba or the dog of "GalomyOak" - and this might be caused by the reason you wrote in your first posting.( Not sleeping outside in winter time.)

But may be it´s caused also by genetics - just like what Margo has told before, it´s my experience too.
Some dogs get long AND thick hair in winter, others only thick but not long (or longER ). And some have completely lacked the ability to get a warm "winter-jacket"... but that´s more an exception for wolfdogs i think.

At last i want to tell you thank you for invitation and that of course i`d like to visit you in winter , if it´s not too far away from my place
- so where are you living exactly ? ( You can send me pm if you like .)

Bye- bye, see you

Silvester

Yeah, that's right :klatsch Well, I think I have maybe more than 6000 photos, because I make each year about 2000 photos from my dogs ;-) With a good camera, it makes very fun. (beside Dacota I have 2 other dogs ;))
So, it's not a secret where I live ;) Exactly in the north from Berlin (part of Brandenburg). But - are you only talking English or maybe German, too? :lol:

Good morning "Dakota"....

sure I´m speaking German also - I will send you pm in the afternoon, now i have to work.

See you , Silvester

Nice discussion :)
I am also interested, whan do your dogs shed the most?
Brukne lives inside and preferes sleeping in bed :roll:, but still has big difference between winter and summer coat. The strange thing is, that her coat usually looks best around... March. And she sheds hardest around August. At the moment she looks worse than these homeless dogs on the adds of animal shelters :oops: In August I was starting to think, whether I should keep vacum-cleaning the floor, or it is better to leave it as it is and wait for a natural felt carpet to form...

This was exactly our experience with Tina and now with Lorka. She lives indoors, too. In January/February she was almost bald, had the thickest coat around April/May (with a nice collar) and is now finishing heavy shredding. I'm aware that by spending around 3 hrs per day in the cold weather she will never get as thick fur as dogs living outdoors. 8)

But what matters more, in my opinion, is the the quality of the coat: she has hair of various length and quality, she never gets really wet in rain or snow (i.e. her undercoat is always dry and really dense in the 'winter edition'), I don't know how to call it technically, but the coat seems to clean itself. Unless she uses the "perfumes";) we don't need to wash her at all, occassional brushing is enough to keep the fur in good condition.

Do you and Vaiva possibly live in very climate controlled environments? If you keep it nice and toasty inside during winter and nice and cool inside during summer, that could account for the "backwards" coats. :lol: I know a few years back, we must have kept it really warm in our apartment, because Buddy (our husky) had SUCH a thin coat that winter that he became a huge baby about going out when it was super cold! haha The next year, we didn't keep it as warm and we made a point to take him on multiple long walks through the freezing winter. It only took a few times for him to build up his tolerance to the point where he could stand walking in -0F temperatures when we wouldn't even want to be out there! Now, if only I could get the same results some how for a summer coat.... :evil: His coat gets SO confused in the summer, between the hot, hot temperature outside and the nice, cool A/C, that he just continually sheds. :roll: I thought finally we were done with it for awhile, when he started blowing coat again! Hopefully this will be the last time until after winter...

Also this coat makes it difficult to wash out all the smelly things out of it 8) Because when you finally make it wet till the skin, the dog is too bored to stand any longer in the bath and tries to escape :rock_3

O.T. The most terrible thing used as a perfume was a mushroom (don't know the scientific name, but it is called "wolf's mushroom" in simple language) - I washed her many times to take off the SMELL, but it came back every time Brukne got wet... for... about six months... :roll:

Well... We live in a simple flat and we do not deside upon the temperature in winter :roll: It is just as it is :) I like it colder, but my orchids don't, so... we do not open the windows very often in winter :D And our home is not conditioned in summer :roll:
Having in mind, that last winter we had a temperature around 20 degrees celsium of cold for maybe two months :roll: (they say this winter will be even colder) and more than 30 degrees celsium of heat in summer (hate it, truly HATE)... Brukne should not be mixing it too much... :roll:

Hey Margo, I know what you mean. There are a few csw with long hair, like some people say, they look like Collie. These dogs I do not mean. There are of course a few who have "open" coat, but these you find in germany, poland, czech, slow, hungary, everywhere. I meant the csw in italy who have thick and long coat - not long like Collie, but like wolf. And there are more than in other countries!

For these good examples, you can not compare Dacota with Emba. Dacota has thick coat and I believe you can not even see the skin if you try to watch. This is like Myla has too. But Emba has wolfish coat, thick and long - I repeat, not Collie long. She got all the "wolf" genes, which are needed.

That Malamute and Siberian Huskys shed like wolves is very easy, because they have still wolf genes in them, like Prof. Dr. Robert Wayne from the University of California from Los Angles published this april. And that is for example why Basenji get only once a year in heat like wolves due, because they have wolf gene in them too, like Saluki and Chow Chow. One part of wolf genes is more for the coat (Mala, Husk) and the other for example the heat circle (Basenji, Saluki). Again, I do not talk about exceptions but about the average dogs from the mentioned breeds.

Christian

Well, we live in an old house and can control the temperature ourselves but I don't see much sense in suffering from the cold just to keep my dog beautiful ;) What I found strange was that even though my csv was almost "naked" in January, she loved spending time outdoors in -25 C. She was running a lot and playing with other dogs (to keep warm?) but neither showed any signs of being cold nor wanted to go back home :shock:.

Exactly!!!! A few weeks ago she gave herself a 'beauty bath' in something that looked like remains of wolves' feast. :x When she came running my husband joked that we could easily win a dogtrailing competition. :twisted: Despite our efforts the echo of this smell still crops up from time to time :roll:

Originally posted by "hanninadina":
"For these good examples, you can not compare Dacota with Emba. Dacota has thick coat and I believe you can not even see the skin if you try to watch. This is like Myla has too. But Emba has wolfish coat, thick and long - I repeat, not Collie long. She got all the "wolf" genes, which are needed."

Yeah,that´s right - and this was ONE reason why i choosed her as the mother and one puppy of her last litter ( kennel of Carlos Antonio - Lupus Ibericus )for becoming my new Csw !

Greetings from Silvester

As a breeder and owner of working Siberian Huskies (in Finland) I must say that there is a huge difference between the typical coat of a modern SHOW HUSKY and (original) working Husky. -The coat type you described above, belongs to the show type dogs. And is not (as my personal opinion) the correct coat type for a Northern Canine.
The working type Siberian Huskies (like all the other Northern Canines) have relatively rough and oily coats (rejecting water & dirt etc) and will develope very thick coats during the winter, when they grow the warm, "woolly" undercoats. In the spring they shed heavily (in another words; their coats "explode") when they "undress" the woolly undercoat, and they look half the size of the dog they were with the full coats. During the summer, they have (like wolves) only the rough (over*)coat.
*I'm sorry, I do not know if the term is correct, but I hope you understand what I mean :)

And the difference between the wintercoats of an indoor-living canine vs outdoor-living canine is obvious.
The animal will adabt to it's surroundings, and naturally: if kept inside, they would suffer if they'd had the same coats as the ones that live outside.
And vice versa.

Most CsV's and Saarloos wolfdog that I have met, has had shorter coat lengt than wolves have; -even during the winter in their full wintercoats.
Wolves actually have quite long coat length. If you mesure one full grown back hair of a wolf, it is almost the same length as the long haired GSD for example. -But the coat type is different form the LH GSD.

And one wolf trait that is missing from CsV's & SWH's is also the relatively long & thick hair inside the ears. If you look wolves ears (especially in wintercoat), they are small, round and very hairy inside and out!
Wolfdogs ears look similar to the East & West Siberian Laika or Swedish Jämthund; -bigger, sharper and less furry than wolves ears.

But what is interests me is that is is even the purpose/goal to get the CsV to look as wolfy as possible? I think that it is a beautiful breed just like it is, and has enough wolfy traits to be "wolffy", but also doggy traits to be reasonably considered as a breed of dog, -not a wolf.
Of course it is nice to have discussion about coat types too, but as my opinion, what is more important is to have serious discussion about the temperaments, and about ethical & responsible SELECTIVE breeding, and good ownership.

I think this is intesresting to :)

Red fox 10800 hair / cm2

Does a Wolf have the same as a CsV 13´000-16´000 hair / cm2 ???

And way does Alaska-M and Husky has so vert few hair / cm2 ???

Artical obout dog hair >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/103.html

Best regards / Mikael

I read that article before and I was wondering the same thing..... if that's true, does that mean that CsV also shed about 6-7 times worse than Siberian Husky???? :shock:

:shock: It's really interesting because Karel Hartl and Jindrich Jedlicka wrote that wolf have 2 000 to 6 000 hair /cm2...

Quote:

Takže jsou

Quote:

vlci od váhy 25 kg do 80 kg, od 55 cm do 80 cm kohoutkové výšky, s protáhlou i krátkou hlavou, s hustotou srstí od 2 000 chlupu na 1 cm2 do 6 000 na 1 cm2, od bílé barvy srsti, až po cernou.

Wolfdogs shed very very very hard... I can not compare with huskies, but... :roll: Remember people near the dog playground, combing their huskies... It looked terrible, but... combing a wolfdog when one sheds seems like an endless work - no matter how long you comb, there are stil hair comming out :D

I find this very hard to believe. As a matter of fact I do not believe this is true. I would want to see some other studies on the same issue before I will take this seriously.
Why?
Because Chinchillas are known to have the highest fur density of any land animal with more than 20,000 hairs per square cm. Their fur is so dense that skin parasites (such as fleas) cannot live on one lest they suffocate. Whereas humans grow one hair from each follicle, a chinchilla has more than fifty hairs from a single follicle.

I hardly believe that wolfdogs (originating from German Shepherd & Wolf mixes) would suddenly develop remarkably larger hair density than it's ancestors have.
Unless someone can show me some serious studies that have been made on this issue, and maybe show that there have been some mutation or something, to make the hair density of a wolfdog so much bigger than any other canis lupus -sub species, I will not buy this. ;-)

My Hronec shed like a GSD :roll: Maybe a bit more... But I think my female Rasty will shed like two GSD at least ;-) :lol: It´s just about 0-5´C here now and she looks like she is prepared for -20 ´C :lol:

Best regards / Mikael