Puppy prices
 

this is a good idea for breeders which sell their pups for 1000 eur and more :lol: but it's sad we can't be so sure about future hd result :lol:

but speaking seriously, i would pay +66 eur (or how much does the test cost) just to be sure that my pup will be healthy.

Yes, if I had a buyer for the pup for Euro 1000, then I'd do the test. But for me it is a lot of money still. Especially if you put together all the things you may want - at least two genetic test are available today, chips (and they are expensive here as they are not used massively yet), pet passports, etc. I'll ask my vet about taking blood samples from the pups before they leave home, I think I'll want to at least save the samples for later.

but all slovakian breeders want 1000 eur from us (i mean russians, and for other countries - i just don't know) :? but some czech breeders want even more... and much more, believe me 8) *
very funny but even at us we have pups from parents which don't have even hd evaluation for the same price and up to 2750 for a non-fci litter :lol:

*well... offtopic... but i am still curious what does this price include if normally price is ~400 eur (not for foreign people...)

So you think that people in foreign countries can pay 1000 euro even if slovaks and czechs can't? :) I would better give a puppy as a gift for a loving family, who will spend a lot of time with a dog, socialise and train him properly and even go to shows, better than sell to someone who only need something expensive to show to others... :roll:

We should be kicked to a topic about puppy prices :rock_3

here in France, a CSW is sold between 1000 and 1500 euros (sometimes 2000 euros :roll:), I include/understand your request, however to be frank with you, my pups I sell them surroundings 1000 euros, that of course covers my expenses for the range, but also maintenance of my other dogs (food, veterinar...), 4 CSW and 1 Dutch shepherd, as I ensure you as I am nevertheless in the red, this problem interest me much, also I intend to make test my dogs, but from there to make test my pups, honestly, I do not know :|.

The problem is not that they can't, but they won't. Well, it is usually because they can't as that is much higher than their salary and keeping dog is also not cheap, but people who could usually don't want CSW (and are not suited for one either).

I think 1000 Euro is a fair price, but of course I rather sell to good hands for 350 than get 1000 and never know about the pup later. But, I am not a puppy producer, for me it is a hobby and I will never make money on it (even if I was able to sell couple for 1000). But if you have several litters per year you really cannot afford to sponsor the breeding...

By the way, I always wonder why people are willing to pay 2500-3500 euros for pups, no matter what parents. But while there is anybody there willing to pay such prices, there will be people who are selling for such prices.

Second that. Hope some good mod will do exactly that (and I can't, I have mod rights for CZ/SK forum only).

after yes a more producing stockbreeder, why not, I suppose that could be possible, but me which does not produce enormously, that would be very difficult, and I do not hope to increase the rate/rhythm of reproduction of my breeding family...

sometimes it looks like a network marketing :lol: people buy expensive pups to breed expensive pups for another people which want to produce expensive pups. at us it is... and nothing except show titles matters. and in such case it's just not profitable to research the breed, to test dogs etc :(
back to the prices. i would ask 1000 eur for my pup (but i don't breed) if i went to slovakian male for example and paid for gas (~1600 km x 2), visa, mating cost, hotel etc., if i paid for tests, if i fed my bitch good, if i spent money for training etc., finally shows, yes... but there are many cases when breeders want even 1500 eur, but it's hard to explain why 1500 and not 500 or 5000. it depends only on their fantasy. and it is single and most usual excuse - this will be very interesting litter with very good blood :lol:

or... "it comes from a working line" :p:lol:

...shy uncontrolable dogs looking through the cage BUT from a working line :lol:
but most of all i like these "interesting lines" because breeders can excuse all - defects, behavior etc just telling - oh, it's not so important, important that this litter is sooo interesting, ah, oh... :D

You see, I do most of these things and yet I usually don't get the full value. So that's why I ask the full value at least from people who live in countries where the salaries are better than here. And those are the same people who sometimes buy wolfdog puppies, not better than mine for three times as much as I ask.

Maybe I should ask more?

Just for comparison - what I have to give to get the litter:
1) buy wolfdog bitch
2) feed good food, vaccinate, keep healthy
- ok, everybody does these. What more?
3) go to youth presentation, bonitation, SVP, two shows - each around 200-300 km trip
4) go for X-ray and send the images for evaluation
4b) pray for good results ;o)
5a) measure progesterone levels for good timing - didn't do this year, lost 1000 km trip due to that
5b) go for mating (this year it was two trips 500 km each and 4 trips 200 km each, as she did not get pregnant the first time)
6a) go for echo to verify pregnancy (to adjust the food - my bitch gets false pregnancy so I cannot go by her behaviour only)
6b) anything wrong during pregnancy - go to vet, buy medicines, go for echo to control if everything goes OK
7) whelping, care for puppies, feeding the bitch and the pups with obscene amounts of food ;o)
8 ) socialize pups, take for trips, bring visitors
9) give deworming treatments to pups
10) tattoo (+ chips for export)
11) vaccinations (+ Pet Passport)
12) control from the club - pay the membership fees, pay the breeding advisor's trip
13) pedigrees (Export pedigrees for foreigners - cost more)

If I did this all for profit (or to stay at least not too far in red numbers) - I would have to export most of my pups, or sell to the 5% of Slovaks with EU-comparable income. Or maybe produce so many pups that I get the large-volume discounts for everything.

not at us... surely :?

but let's calculate:

1) buy wolfdog bitch = ~800 eur (i take average price)
2) feed good food, vaccinate, keep healthy
- ok, everybody does these. What more? = let it be 5 eur per day for food, so we have 3650 eur only for food during first 2 years - time until first litter and let it be 4000 with vaccinations and keeping healthy (it must be really healthy bitch for these money :lol:)
3) go to youth presentation, bonitation, SVP, two shows - each around 200-300 km trip = i don't know how much does it cost for you, but for us it would be something around 500 eur if we have svp, bonitation and shows in our country
4) go for X-ray and send the images for evaluation = at us (i don't know your prices) it's 60-70 eur.
4b) pray for good results ;o) = priceless 8)
5a) measure progesterone levels for good timing - didn't do this year, lost 1000 km trip due to that = at it's only 20 eur
5b) go for mating (this year it was two trips 500 km each and 4 trips 200 km each, as she did not get pregnant the first time) = average between you and us must be 500 eur
6a) go for echo to verify pregnancy (to adjust the food - my bitch gets false pregnancy so I cannot go by her behaviour only)
6b) anything wrong during pregnancy - go to vet, buy medicines, go for echo to control if everything goes OK 6a+6b must be = ~50-100 eur (you forgot vitamines and feeding of pregnant bitch 8))
7) whelping, care for puppies, feeding the bitch and the pups with obscene amounts of food ;o) if we have 6 pups during 2 months and leave 5 eur per day for each one... = 1800 (:shock:!!!)
8 ) socialize pups, take for trips, bring visitors = priceless
9) give deworming treatments to pups = not too much, at us it's less than 1 eur per pup
10) tattoo (+ chips for export) = 50 eur
11) vaccinations (+ Pet Passport) = 15x6 = ~100 eur
12) control from the club - pay the membership fees, pay the breeding advisor's trip = i don't know these prices
13) pedigrees (Export pedigrees for foreigners - cost more) = the same, but let it be also 50 eur x 6 = 300

+ mating fee - 600 eur for 6 pups

and so we have 8840 just for first litter of 6 pups :shock: but if we have more than 1 litter, then price will not be more so scary 8) 8840/6= ~1500 eur :lol:

That was a brilliant one...;-)

Cheers,

(a still grinning) Michael

Morian, nice math. I think it is a bit (not much) cheaper here (some thing are more expensive, some less), but you can see that the value of the pups (just what you need to invest) is more than 1000 eur that we (ok, I) ask from foreigners, and far more than we get from our neighbours. If I was a good businessman, I should ask at least 2000 e for a pup, to be on the plus side and cover some risks (you don't always get a good bitch).

yea, "interesting blood" and "working line" and "champion parents" are all a good jokes...

And then the real interesting blood and working and champion parents are lost in the ocean of litters that are just produced for money (or whatever other small reasons).

not nice, it scared me :o because now i also own a bitch :evil:
cheaper or not, but we didn't count training, travels and many other things which we can not remember.
but when we speak about breeders which have many litters per year and surely every bitch has many litters diring its life... :roll: that's why i wonder seeing prices like 1200, 1500 etc at such breeders. i didn't mean "family breeders", breeders like you or some others which have 1-2 litters per year and their dogs are firstly their family members, but not a kind of material or financial basis of their existence.

most of all i like ugly shy etc. dogs taken to breeding because they have these "interesting" bloods. no, no, not because their owners or breeders already paid for them and don't want to hear that their dogs are not super-hyper etc., but because they are "interesting" :cool:

Yes, but if you do the breeding for business, then you need to not only cover your expenses like these, you have to count everything as expense (as you'll pay the taxes, so you want to minimize that), you have to count on risks like yo'll get all the things done but the bitch will be not good enough for breeding (and you should not breed bad bitches), so that's just the money down the drain - and you can resell the bitch but you won't get the expenses and time back.

So all in all, I understand that the pro-breeders ask so much money, I just don't understand that people pay that kind of money, when there are cheaper litters from good quality parents available (even if you'd travel across Europe to get the pup yourself).

I mean, you expect to pay obscene prices for Prada shoes and i-dont-know-the-brands handbags and only small money for chinese look-alikes, but the pups are pups, the parents are comparable (often better as they are tested by experts), the result are often just luck, as you cannot predict much, so why?

i don't understand it too. if i want to buy a csv pup, i look for info about csv, i find dogs, i find owners etc, so finally i can imagine what is a quality pup, what its parents must have except show titles. i think that such people which buy nobody-knows-what-and-who-knows-doesn't-wanna-name-it don't look for info = have no interest = they want just to buy right now and they even don't interest what do they buy = thanks god that they buy pups from other breeders, not from you :lol:
and also i don't understand why do some breeders have the same quality, tests etc, and even better sometimes, but don't want 1000 eur and more for their pups 8)

http://zvierata.bazos.sk/?hledat=Ces...alita=&iddel=1

why if for this puppy quest people from others country ( not from SK or CZ) automaticly price be 1000 euro? not why this same ( yes yes export pedigree pet pasport and chip we can pay too)
:roll:

p.s. for this later are cheaper buyt others puppy from this super ch :) when people have this dogs in theys countrys or near home

wolfin, how much does export pedigree cost in europe?

hmm I can say LT price- about 50 euro. pet pasport and chip in LT -30 euro.

o! chip is even cheaper than at us...
by the way, strange logic - people which can come and buy pup from any neighbour town pay 400 and people which have to go very far, make visas etc pay 1000 :D but ok, i have nothing againist 1000 eur, only if i'm sure in the litter's quality ;)

in Poland if I good member price are 10.... euro

Because small breeders cannot afford to keep the pups if not sold - so they sell cheaper rather than not at all. Some people say I should even plan the litter if I don't have buyers up front, but that wouldn't work for me - I want to know at least if and when exactly we are expecting before I promise anything...

Are you sure they are jokes? :rock_3. Recent text from one of the private sites:
Most breeders are critical, because they are jelous of not being able to breed equally perfect and versatile pups! :p:evil_lol:lol::lol:

Daiva - because the value is 1000 euro, but Slovak buyers won't buy for that money. You can say that the expenses for my two litters were around 10 000 Euro, but I only got 1000 Euro for the whole previous litter (3 pups, domestic buyers). I don;t ask foreigners to pay 1000 automatically - I try to adjust the prices to the normal prices in that country, and am always open to the discussion with prospective buyers, but don't ask me to charge only 500 euro from people who will later sell their pups for 3500 each... I have very similar expenses but much smaller incomes.

oh, rona, surely you speak russian because i saw +/- the same at us :roflmao

Yes, I am jealous. Although I have great character and exterior bitch and great character and exterior mate, I am not able to guarantee this. :(
;)

from the other point of view why should you sell pups for 500 eur to any person which tries to negiciate your price... sometimes ability to pay 1000 eur can be guarantee that the person have enough money to provide normal life for this pup because as i see csv is not so cheap breed (i don't mean puppie price)

Unfortunately my Russian is not good enough to read/talk about breeding :(. But this is sad news - there must be more "ambitious breeders"... ;)

but I quest- WHY one price are in SK and others to people from others country? Ok we too not are rich country but mas pay this same 1000 euro if want to bring good male or female from SK ( or hi hi hi like say one breeder ( who have reklama in this sk. web site too) - "You buy not a dog, you buy SLOVAK paper pedigree and for this mas pay")

I cannot speak for others - but as I said, what I say if asked by foreigners, is 1000 euro with possible discounts. Which means it can go down. From Slovaks, I say 400 if you sign contract, otherwise more (and they cannot resell the pup, too). If I said 1000 with discounts, they would just put down the phone and never contact me again...

But, Daiva, I think you know what can be ment by Slovak papers... Slovakia and Czech rep have the most strong limitations on breeding. Plus here are the most knowledgeable judges, so results from Nitra show are much more valid than from Vienna, Paris, Rome etc shows - or should be.

Morian - yes, but Slovaks who can afford 1000 euro for a puppy will not want a CSW, they'll want something more fashionable. They want a thing not a dog mostly, or not a dog in a sense like I understand it. Maybe some do, but there are only a few of them (and some go and buy pups abroad, for some strange reasons).

You think :) but and in others country are tested dogs with slovak or czech bonitation, healty testing ( moore not only HD) and with judgement this same judge and moore :) - in this case you say this same like this breeder- You mas pay from only slovak paper pedigree :))) but not for moore.
( not be bad for this worts but this are reality)

then i stop to understand why some sk breeders don't want to sell pups to russia for example (last year i got 2 such answers - "all the pups will be sold to slovakians only", well, in the end one was sold to russia and here it disappeared and even its breeder didn't know wtf because as i heard the pup was sold via another person)... it's possible to find normal people even here + we need good pups after 2 non fci litters and more 2 litters from parents without even hd (+ very easily you can see list of russian wilfdogs, sometimes it's very tragic :lol:).

I agree, if you have all the requirements, than the value of the pups is similar to pups from slovak breeding. But where can you get puppies (FCI pedigree to be exact) cheaper for their value than in Slovakia or Czech republic? If the breeder doesn't want to give discount to you, then ask other breeder. You want that individual pup? Than there sure is some value in it for you, so why do you complain?

Morian, I don't want to advertise too much, but if you know about somebody who wants good pups for good price and offers good home and even some perspective, then you know who to contact... ;)

I could understand the approach you mentioned if the litter was small and of really interesting blood (or some breeding committee plan for breed development). I could also understand if the breeder doesn't have good experience with the country (like will I sell there if there is a high risk of puppies being used for non-FCI-friendly or even mix breeding? is the contract enough to provide me with leverage to prevent that king of development?)

for me not big problem- i have friends breeders in SK and I have good variants, but now speake about others people, who not know slovak breeders good - and later have very big eyes when see this price diferent 2 x time moore like sale in SK for slovak. ( all hystory about slovak paper pedigree is real I can say and breeder name if want, but in PM)

if somebody asks - i will give them you coordinates, thanks :p

it's very stupid that one pup from the litter i mentioned finally WAS SOLD to russia, but via other persons and in the end this pup DISAPPEARED! if it all is still right, info for database was sent by its owner, but later this person answered that she doesn't know about any csv pup and she has none etc. but also she filled her profile by her own hand i think and admin got her info from her... very stupid situation. and what forced this breeder to refuse to me, but to sell this pup to that person... unundarstandble. i will not publish more concrete info, but it really happened.

I just do not understand one thing - if we speak about how expensive it is to breed and so sad nobody wants to pay 3000 euros for a puppy... :roll: Nobody forces to breed :roll: Yes, breeding is a very expensive (in many meanings, not only money) hobby, it does not have to "pay"...
And it is totally unfair to count the price of a female, of her food, vaccinations, health tests - and then to "include" it to the puppy price :roll:

vaiva, i think this calculation was made just to understand better why the price is 1000, but not much less or much more 8) and as you can see it shows very clear that breeding of csv can't be commercial in cases of "family breeder", hobby etc.

But the calculation really does not show anything :D
Also doesn't explain the different prices.

then explain please why do you want 1000 eur for your pups? :lol:

What makes you think I want 1000 euro per pup?
I do not count the food of my dog, or vaccination, or health tests - I would have these expenses without breeding too. I don't even count the traveling to male - I take it as a nice trip and much fun.

no-no, it was just an idea ;)
but then you must give your pups for free, isn't it?

No, but I do not tell stories that puppy costs this amount of money, because HD tests (that you make once in dog's life and it costs... 70 euro :lol:) are expensive, or because I had to feed my female (30 more euros a month, and this is feeding Orijen - at the moment it is the best dry food I can find in LT), or similar. I would do the same things with my dog, no matter if it is a breeding dog, or a mix from a shelter.
Yes, let's be fair and say that a breeder also needs a little "payback" for his hard work, for all the letters he answered (explaining obvious things for people, who simply desided you have nothing else to do), for future consultations any time of the day or night, if a new puppy owner faces a problem (this is in all the agreements, isn't it?), also maybe breeder had to take some free days from work (and was not payed for this time) to take care of the puppies. Also if puppies do not live in a kennel, but at home, same room with the family, you may need some rapair works, don't you? :lol:
It is not a shame to say "yes, the puppy costs THIS amount of money, because I need a little payback for my hard work" 8) It is a shame to lie that this is how much a puppy costs - then why do puppies without pedigrees cost much less? (I am speaking not about wolfdogs, but other breeds)

Hello,

for my part, why 1000 euros, quite simply because, is the price that this sells in France, the market of the pedigree dog in France is raised, one cannot sell off our pups either, that will think people with large price differences between such or such breeding?

can be they would think qu' there is a latent defect ?

i guess that it was the main question of this topic :lol:

Aaa, so you would gladly give puppies for free, but you are simply forced to take 1000 euro for a puppy just because in other case people would think your dogs are sick or smth? I promise, I will not think your dogs have letal defects. Will you give me a puppy? :oops: As a gift? :oops:

me I am always ready to discuss the price of my pups:

why?

For other country, I know well that the voyage represents a cost.

A family being able to bring a splendid life to my baby but not having the means, for me this is not a problem, I can to re-examine the price, because I think above all of the good future being of my pups...

:lol: a gift, not :lol:, I want nevertheless of course to refund my expenses

Yes, this is a great attitude :)

to be honest with you (if other French reads that, they will not be happy…:lol: :bolt) , on a range with 5 pups on average, any expenses included/understood (vaccines, electronic chip, pedigree, covered….), that returns to approximately 300-400 euros by pup

:lol: I am sure, that in countries with lower standarts of life, the expenses are even smaller. But still - it is not a shame for a breeder to ask for little payment too (not earning for living, of course :D)

i undersand that we're starting another idle talk, but... i'm still curious, why do you ask for your

certain amount of money, not less and not more. why not 5000 for example? 8)

How do you know I do not ask 5000 euro?
Everyone is free to decide upon his price. I do not understand why some dogs cost 600 euro and some 2500. (funny thing it is not about quality of dog :D)

this was the question :thumbs

I think it is mostly about which country the breeder lives in, 600 Euro might be OK in for example Poland and 2000 Euro might be OK in USA or Scandinavia :wink:

But yes 2500 Euro is not a OK price for any normal Cs Vlcak litter I think.

.................................................. .................................................. ...

Swedish example on dog price (2010-12)

Yorkshire Terrier puppy 1400 Euro

>>>http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/York....htm?ca=11&w=1

English Bulldog puppy 2500 Euro

>>>http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/Enge....htm?ca=11&w=1

Chihuahua 1200 Euro

>>>http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/Chih....htm?ca=11&w=1

Best regards / Mikael

Not much different from prices in Lithuania... :roll:

As simply a pet owner and not a breeder, here are my thoughts..

I am ok to pay 1000 euros for a puppy from parents I like. I would pay even more for a proven adult.

I do think that 1000 euros for each puppy in a medium litter lets the breeder gain a little, like someone else said, if I exclude regular things like food or training, which a person should provide anyway.

But, the biggest thing for me is that I assume that the breeder will take that surplus and apply it to other future breeding expenses, such as importing a new female, which makes it possible for our breed to continue healthily. In other words, I think of it like supporting the breeder's dream or vision for the breed.

Of course, this does not apply to breeders that are just breeding one or two litters for fun..

Just my thoughts.

We thought the same way some time ago but changed this attitude due to our experiences.

First, what will happen if something happens to the dog like for example a car accident, what about the health tests of the dog etc. These costs a pretty soon above the normal puppy-prices. If I get a non-purebred dog I save money I can spend on those occasions.

Second, if I can´t afford the puppyprice of a pure bred dog of a good breeder why does it have to be a pure bred dog? Of course we all have reasons why we choose a CSW but if we are honest it would be possible to find an adequate dog with the same character if we would try. It might not look the same though but for me the character is much more important. If for someone the wolfish look is that important he anyway is not the kind of owner we want for our dog or for this breed.

Third if I can´t afford something now I will save money to buy it later, looking for a dog I would take the meantime to get more informations about the breed and breeders.
I waited about 8 years till I bought my first dog, not only because of prices but mainly because then I had the possibility to give it a suitable surrounding.

We had one person who tried to discuss the price several times we didn´t give him a puppy though we first told him he could have one and refused it some time later after getting to know him better. Not because of the price-discussion but because of a bad feeling. We have been very right, he turned out to be an egoistic psychopath, unluckily he managed to get several dogs of other breeders, three he gave away till today and he will go on collecting...

We had another buyer who made an extremely good impression for us so we agreed to payment on rates, everything turned out well for the dog in the end but the police was involved in between and I will never agree on something like this again.

So our conclusion is: We will discuss maybe about the money for x-raying the dog that we pay back after doing the x-ray if we know the person and trust him. But if anybody can´t pay our price for the puppy we go on and find another good owner, we don´t mind to keep the pup much longer till we find somebody.
We undergo a lot of work and trouble and we invest a lot of time for our dogs and breeding. The price we ask is the value we give to our dogs and this work and we invest the money back into our dogs. If somebody doesn´t want to pay our price he doesn´t value our dogs and our work enough, he will not get a puppy.

As coming back to the different prices: If Slovakian people are asked to pay 400 Euros and I am asked to pay 1000 Euros this is due to the different income in different countries, the value of the dog stays the same in this case, I might even pay less than the Slovakian in relation.
If a western country asks 2500 this is not due to value of the dog but to the market price. I will not pay this price for a normal dog and we refused to pay this stud fee to a normal French or Italian stud without bonitation and without show results of a specialised judge in the past.

Ina

Hello Ina,

yes I include/understand your reasoning completely.

But my small experiment makes that I am not yet to confront with various problems like you ...

however I keep your intervention well at the head ;)

for a dog, never I would not put a similar sum, for me, this price for an animal is that the practice a merchant of dog :evil:

Puppy prices do NOT reflect in most cases the quality of the dog.

Puppy price is decided by the Market and the ignorance of the buyer (as opposed to the knowledge)

I was VERY lucky with my first dog, i had no experience at all and I got a wonderful healthy beautiful strong male.
He is 8 years old and still looks and behave as if he was 2.

With experience, time, dedication, you learn what is important to look for when buying a puppy.

Ignorance brings most to look for the most wolfish looking parents.
Ignorance brings them to spend 2 or 3.000 euros to a breeder who puts NO effort in breeding than to just mate wolfish looking dogs... regardless of bloodline or health or character.
And sometimes they even DONT use a wolfdog but a wolf Hybrid and sell them as wolfdogs.
In this case I consider these people CRIMINALS and wouldn't spend a penny on their dogs.

Those who do are Ingorant AND stupid.

Studying well the bloodline of the puppy you buy, the health and morfology of the parents and the grand parents and if possible even the puppies from previous litters.

But that is NOT enough...you also should look at how the breeder treats his dogs, how he grows them up.

I have puppies from very different breeders.
I trust ALL of them, regardless of what many people say on this forum.
Because I KNOW, i went to their homes, I saw how they treat their dogs.
I wouldn't do some mistakes they do, but these mistakes are not enough for me not to buy a puppy from them.
Some of them became my friends and I trust them not only as breeders.

Finally, i believe it is a DUTY of the breeders to select the new owners, not just to chase their money.
A good owner is a good advertisement for your kennel too.
Sometimes it is worth giving a puppy for a lower price than usual JUST because the new owner is a good one.
In my case I am sure my breeder/friends know it.
:lol:

Of course, for me it's obvious but i forgot to mention it,
the efforts a breeder can do about character and morphology are to train the dog (basic training would be great but more training would be even greater), bonitation.
I am ready to spend 1000 or more on a dog who's parents are bonitated, have done basic training, some shows with breed expert judges...

About dog shows...I learnt after 8 years that dog shows mean NOTHING, really really nothing.
Because most judges know much less than we do about CSW.
The dog show results are just a good publicity, nothing else.
With exception to when the judges are also Breed Experts.
No offences to the others, but I consider today breed experts only 3 people.
Monika Soukupova, Oskar Dora and Sonja Bognarova.
And even they are human beings and can make mistakes. 8)
Any result from other judges to my eyes are meaningless.

Nearly 5 years ago I moved from a rental flat in the oldtown to an even smaller but OWN flat near a big park (Vilnius looks like a forest when you are landing by plane - this is because of many parks). This was the point where my "I need a dog" became... well... I could simply start crying just thinking about it... Like a child. Then I heared about the first wolfdogs litter in Lithuania. Tried to contact wolfin. Got positive answer and the price... Much too big for two students... I will not tell all the story, but wolfin then gave me a chance to have Brukne ("I want you to have her" 8)) and little by little I paid the price of my dog.
There were times where we had like :roll: 2 euros for two people for a week (for food). But the dog was always FIRST. She was always well fed, always had good vets, always most loved.
Now I am not having the best financial situation ever :D but still my dog comes first than a vaccation/cosmetics/new shoes/evening out. And I will always think that a person who can not just pay 1000 or smth euros for a dog at once still can be a very good owner.

Vaiva, apart from telling you your profile picture is the best I have ever seen (beautiful dog and even more owner!:p), your story is touching and ever so true.
I have been in serious economical problems here in Prague since I arrived 4 months ago and found a job only last month.
And, just like you, I have priorities.
There was a moment i had the last 100 euros waiting for something to happen....I didn't think a minute and I spent them ALL on dog/cat food, so at least they will not starve!
The next day, i got the money from a Studfee from Echo.
It's wolf Karma!
:lol:;)

I've blushed and we both (Brukne and me) are giggling :oops:
Yes, giving our best to the dogs always pays in many different ways :)

I think a french breeder with profesional status could give an interesting point of view.

Here in France the main breeders have got "amator" status, that means they are not knows from ADMINISTRATIVES SERVICES like TAX OFFICE or VETERINARIAN INSPECTION SERVICES.

That explain a lot of things according to puppy price !!!

First, if you are PROFESIONAL BREEDERS (registered as profesional but maybe with ONLY FEW LITTERS) you have to pay each year :
- a minimum of charge about SOCIAL TAX,
- the kennel structures respecting the law (kennel with enough spaces, park for dogs, allowed fences, system to eliminate wastes and easily washes)
- all operations in the breeding station must be followed and written onto specific documents (or informatic system)... so that means you have to make all vaccinativ, anti-worming, desinfection program and all is written with invoices from vet...

No way to not make it ! Each dog which enters the breeding station must be registered, and so when left...
When you breed some breeds you also have to pay specific insurance policy.

All of that means : money for investment and time to make all works = CHARGES to put in puppy price !

For all breeder, of course, you have to nourrish the dogs, and followed the right cares for them (and vets cost !!!)... for all dogs... the oldest one, even you don't use them in your breeding program.

Then, when you have the objectiv to breed good dog (excellent ?) you have to follow some rules :

- be sure that you dogs are almost good = going to dogshow and evaluate the dogs... (just as example : my loved Ar'wan has made more than 50 dogshows and seen more than 30 differents judges and i think about 25 % in foreign countries)...
A dog carrier cost a lot...

- to choose some male according to your objectives and maybe have to travel for that (that costs)... and most of time, to pay the dog owner because you have to use his dog !

Then for the mother all vet care must be ok : anti-worming, echography, radiography....

When puppies are borned, same things (and sometimes ceaseran operation !) anti-worming, vaccinativ program, pedigree registration and so...

Selling a puppy is a thing, and each breeders give the garanty he wants after that...

First are medical guaranty (if the puppy has got problem, the breeder is responsible to cure the dog or participate).

Personnaly, we choose to offer "all life dog advicing" to help them good growing, to obtain good socializacion, and make them well integrated in the new family for happy life... that means "taking our cellular and be available for customer".

Sometimes guaranty must be about dogshow or breeding carrier..., and pass by a good selection according to customer wishes.

... and them, when puppy is adult, if you consider you have breeded interesting dog, the minimum is to present them in dogshow... and i usually used to take some dogs with me in my car, to pay dogshow even they are not mine.

Some breeders (WE) organize obedience training or plan regular meeting in the year to make customers to meet each others and exchange knowledge and experience...
This is also strong guaranty for new owner to be helped by experienced people...
... and preparing that meetings means also time, some food and confort...

So i think these argues are enought numerous to explain what you could have difference between dog prices...

... and a price means not only "the dog"... but often a lot of guaranty !

By that, sometimes a price of 1000 € could be expensive compare to a 1200 € price with a log of things included with the dog !

Hi Eric, so it is easy!!! : go quickly to university, study and when you will be veterinarian, make your own professional kennel and you wil save money for veterinary service :twisted::twisted::twisted:.
Happy new year:lol:

But this is very similar for every country and doesn't explane the price differences :D In Lithuania you also should pay taxes and get a paper from veterinary service IF you are living from breeding. I am not so sure about veterinary documents, but you have to pay taxes if you get income from selling puppies REGULARY and if you do not have any other income (like salary).

Em, also it is an interesting topic - what part of official minimum salary does a puppy price in different countries take? Could anyone count these things?

Hanka i have profesional breeder status (my wife) because we have choosen :
- to give our puppies owner some guaranty,
- to avoid people jalousy would have the idea to inform tax services if we have one litter,
- by that we are known by administrativ services and local town to be serious (we often receive lost dog from policemen or town employees to keep them a night until refugees open doors on the morning)

Unfortunally, we have profesional status but we breed a few puppies each year (even with our rottweiler)... 23 puppies in 3 year for CWs...

... that means much more charge than money earn ...

As i remember, first year... -7000 € (year for installing everything)....the second -3000 € ... This year.... due to our big charges in veterinarian.... hum that hurt my head (only a few puppies also)

.... if i want cash back our charge onto puppy price, i haven't evaluate it yet... but i imagine a BIG SELLING PRICE...

I made some evaluation to earn money with dog breeding...

To imagine an income enought and regular, it would be more than 150 of puppies each year based on a 30 females and of course some males....
(And the medium price is 500 € for each puppy, because in this way you have to take in mind that not only CWs but several breed...)

The cost structure would be huge (not under 50000 € if you made it by yourself), and authorization particular.

hello,interesting, yes indeed, a professional breeding will have more load compared to the tax, nevertheless, I do not see which additional guarantee you can provide a small breeding family will not be able to provide.

I remain persuaded that all breeder worthy of this name will be in measurement; to bring the same thing exactly.

However, that comforts me, I have a small breeding family, the accounts are always in the red, but I simply live my passion without having to count what each one of my dogs report to me or not…

... You are true for some point ....

But you can have a REGISTERED STATUS (i.e. PROFESIONAL BREEDER) and PROVIDE HIGH GUARANTEE according to the way of breeding, taking puppies inside house and every care about socializacion.

The MOST IMPORTANT is that in PROFESIONAL STATUS you engage YOUR RESPONSABILITY ACCORDING TO LAW much more than amator status... and also about puppies health.

In case of problem, the law is more strict with profesional...

The only difference is the COST OF BREEDING... only this point ... and what is your due to ADMINISTRATION... and that costs !

... and the subject is to try to explain SELLING PRICE DIFFERENCE ...

... not to compare what you are able to do or not... just to give elements for explaining the price.

The only "price" doesn't explain anything...

Even not being a "professional" breeder, you can (should) sign a contract, where both - breeder and new owner - have their responsibilities signed. And it works just the same.

.... Yes Daiva, but in case of problem it is not the SAME COURT when you start a lawsuit ...

this are Vaiva, not Daiva ( me) I not dispute in this themat ) :rock_3

The same. I am not sure about the laws in other countries, but in Lithuania signed agreement works.
My mother is a judge, my father is a lawyer, believe me, I consulted :)

And yes, I am Vaiva, not Daiva.

but contract or not, professional or not, I filled perfectly my responsibilities with respect to my pups and those throughout their life.

I have not need to have a contract to respect my responsabilities.

Yes the subject is the price difference, only I reconsidered this point because it explain of anything the difference.

The only real difference is right the taxes relative to professional breeding...

Now why this price? because is the price that a pup CSW in France is sold, quite simply. Profitability when spoken a hobby I do not know, sorry… :lol:

Sorry ... wrong letter... not more :(

Who said the opposit here ????

... Fortunally you are not the only one of practicing that...

Anyway to compare the experience and guarantee of the breeders in this post, isn't it ?

Only to make sense to this topics...

There is several difference between breeders, and also price politics.

Here in France price (for dog with pedigree) goes from 800 € to 1600 €.

Nobody say that a small price dog means bad dog... and in the opposit, high price doesn't mean high quality each time.

Notoriety could also explain the price according to an affix...

... given almost time by the difference between reality of the acts and the lie (breeder and opponents !)

The pup prices in Holland and Belgium are normal € 900.- € 1500.-
And for this are two reasons, not only the costs for the breeder, but a lot of breeders are saying, if I sell my pups for less then €900.- everyone will buy a look a like wolf for Christmas present and don't have the money lather to feed them well and go to the vet if it is necessary.

I hope my English is ok;)

Gr
Tatiana

In Hungary the puppies' price 400-700 €.
Pedigree, chip, dogpass are in the price.
Export pedigree +50 €

And could anyone write what is also a minimum official salary in your country?
For example an average puppy price in Lithuania is around 800 euros, and the minimum salary is 800 LTL, which is... 231 euros :roll:
It is just really interesting :roll:

French minimum salary is well known... the name is SMIC.

From 01.01.2011 it is 9,00 € "BRUT" per hour with charge (employee has to pay charge on that about 22 % )

That means that, if the person works 35 hour / week the income is 1365€ with social charge and at the end, you receive 1073 € on the bank account ! (after you also have to pay tax)

But the boss pay also big charges... When you receive 1073 per employee, in the other hand the boss give about 800 € more (1365-1073 = 292 € of salaree social charge + about 500 € of boss social charge)...

Also, Boss has to pay other tax...

So when you breed puppies and you are not registered as profesional... it is easy to earn much more money than profesional... ok ????

I explain that : if i need to take 1073 € of salary (from breeding activity)... i have to pay 800 € more for social tax... and give also IVA to government (5,5 %)

So if you could earn 300-400 € per dogs (like Martiou007 said)... that means you need 3 dogs in profesional status (only for the income) instead of one in amator status...

... and 3 dogs more = MUCH MORE ADULT DOG FOR BREEDING, KENNEL, STRUCTURE, CONTROLS, ETC...

In other point of view (country one), it is interesting...

A CWs represents here in France a little bit more than 1 month salary... and in lithuania 3 months 1/2 half... (with the data from Vaiva)

... so finally come here in France, a CWs is cheaper (LOL)

Above datas from UE statistics about salary in each country in january 2009.

Dog price remains representing by kennel notoriety (and also costs engaged by it and politics) and market price


http://ericplante.free.fr/Download/S...mum_europe.jpg

But this is only if this is your only income, isn't it? If you are working the taxes for you are allready payed, so you pay for your "profesional breeding" less? Or is it the same?

In France, as i know, there was several possibilities...

Agricultur (and breeding is part of that) is specific...

Some years ago (how many, i don't know), there was a system you pay something per puppies you have (system was made for sheep...)... but i don't know if this system is still activ....

Then, you have a system you pay a annualy paid plan if the total you sell is under 76 300 € per year...

Then you have the real system where you pay according exactly your charge and what you sell. You have each, at the minim, 3 months period you fill in documents to register what you sell and what you buy).

The third system it is the system i have choosen.... Why ?
Because it is only hobby, so each year i lost money than i earn...

If you choose the annually paid plan = you pay, even you loose money... and you also pay a minimum for social (between 2000 to 3000 € a year i think).

If you choose the real system... and you earn money (benefits), then you will pay a lot of money (to save 10000 € at the end of the year you have to pay from 5000 to 8000 € to social tax.... then you have to pay tax on the 10000 €).

This is true if it is your only income or not...

If not only income, all income (from breeding and job) would be added at the end of the year.... and you pay tax on the money you earn, according limit fixed by government...

French system is made to make people pay... but we have strong social aids and care system for people.