Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database
 

The time is approaching when we plan to start building the new database.

We will widen the "Health" part of the database. If you want that your dog's test results will be also listed please send the copies to us ([email protected]).

It apply to everything:

- HD
- ED
- DM
- dwarf
- eyes check
- heart check
- MDR1
- MH
- ....

Not "veryfied" test results will be NOT SHOWED.

heart check - what official result must be sent? :shock:
and once again about results - verified or not, existing or not: http://www.wolfdog.org/rus/dbase/d10531.html

Heart Check will be a problem, has it been done by a specialist, what kind of heart check has been done?
And the same as with eye check, when has it been done? It is useless if it isn´t done on regular terms as every year.
And what do you mean with MH?
And looking a the gene test like DM and Dwarf, all researchers told us not to publish any results because of witch-hunts and lowering of the gene pools. We have tested our dogs but will not publish any result no matter if negativ or positiv, I can send you the certificates but will not agree to publishing them.
And talking about it will you please remove Lorenz Farouks N/N DM result as Sarka has published it without our permission? It is a good example for the problem in itself as she was not as keen on publishing other results that haven´t been that positiv for her kennel I know of.

I am for publishing HD, ED, Eye results and Heart results (when it is with the actual datas and updated in time and not as it works now) but I am against publishing gene tests of diseases that are still under research as my experiences show the advise of the experts has been right.
Maybe it would be better not to publish litters without gene-tested parents after a period that gives the breeders time to test?

Ina

Very interesting thread indeed 8)
Will the DM test results obtained at Daniela's laboratory be treated as varified, or unverified?

Some Polish owners plan to have the samples taken officialy by vets after the chip/tatoo of the dog is checked, and sent to Prague through recognized local vet clinics, just to avoid accussations of cheating.

Personally I don't care if the result od my dog is published or not, but I know some owners/breeders would like to know if they will have to repeat the test if the result is to be published on WD.

I know there are some veterinary clinics which offer "official" (their own) certificates.

It is what I forgot to write - it is exactly why we ask for the copies. By the eye examination we will also publish the date when the check was done. By other results we will post name of the veterinarian/clinic/lab who made the evaluation.

Malignant hyperthermia

Yes, I understand it. Because of it the owners/breeders will be able to choose who will see the results given by them. There are four options planned:
1- the result will be visible to everyone
2- the results will be visible only to registered breeders
3- the results will be visible to "trusted" people
4- the result will be not visible and used only for statistics
(exception is HD/ED - it will be showed to everyone).

About point 3.: I was thinking to give access to people chosen by the official breed clubs (breeding comittee members, a.s.o). They will be able to see more results than even registered breeders (but still the will be not able to see "hidden" results)

It is no problem for me. Every result is important - even if it will stay hidden in the database it will be useful for the breed statistics.

It will be done so. The result will be not published - it will stay hidden.

I understand the whole problem: honest breeders publishing all test results will be always injured in comparison to breeders who publish only good results. Honest people will be always goal of witch hunts while not so serious breeders will hide even the worsest results.
It is while I'm for giving owners/breeders the possibility to hide the results (or show them to chosen groups of people).

Yes, it is good idea. We need only a group of "experts" (well informed people) who will be able to prepare reasonable time table: what and till when must be done. It is important to give breeders enough time to make the tests.

You mean the free of charge project of the Czech Club? If yes than "yes": the results will be also put into the database.
We (as web site) do not "verify" the tests - all test result made by laboratories testing DNA by dogs will be published. But additionally we will also list information who made the test (in this case it will be Czech University).

For all genetic tests performed through the OFFA in the US (with the exception of the 15 free tests given by the University of Missouri, and maybe initial sample tests in the future by universities), all normal results are automatically published in an open public database, in an effort to help breeders locate dogs which might be used to correct some of their dog's breeding faults (DM is considered a fault to be considered like other faults that can be corrected through breeding - carrier = fault, affected = stronger fault - http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/dmbreederguide.html). For dogs with N/N (clear) parents, no testing is necessary for puppies, they are considered "clear by parentage" (http://www.offa.org/dna_cbp.html )

I'd love to see Penn-Hip results listed in the database eventually, as this is becoming an ever popular test in the US for hips - when we have 20 CSVs tested, we will have a control sample to make official breeding recommendations from, for the breed. Penn - does not have an online database.

Owners of dogs with abnormal results are given the option to publish their dogs, or not. As a club, I think we will push to have transparency and openness in declaring results to further research, and strengthen our breeding program in the US.

http://offa.org/results.html?num=&re...t=Begin+Search

For the case of all results, the age at test (in months), as well as the date of the test (particularly important for eye exams) is listed next to the result. Maybe this is a solution to address problems of tests with expiration dates? It would also be necessary to have a written passage explaining how to interpret results for new owners/breeders, I think.

Excited for the new database!:)

I see that they are declared as "clear" only if "all three (sire/dam/offspring) have been DNA identity profiled and parentage verified."
We can also make such rule for Wolfdog.org database - even if till now there are no dogs which fulfill such conditions.

BTW. I forgot to write that DNA tests (for example antagene) will be also included in the new database.

And what about "only DNA profil" of dog? It will be more and more important, if some "breeders" mix wolfdogs or make falses in pedigries .....
When will be new database ready?

Yes, it's wonderful they require this (even though it only means the owner performing a cheek swab for AKC at home). It's also a necessary condition to breed imported (FCI registered) dogs, or AI litters.

Yes, I meant the Czech University tests/results.
Thanks :)

Will the heart check indicate also which method? (Echocardiogram (EKG)? Holter? etc)

Excited about the new database!

Professor Gandini, leading expert of DM in Italy, and one of the largest in Europe, is not contrary to the publication of the data.

Well one forum-member here already made the experience that he better wouldn´t have published.
And Bern one of the leading Universities in Europe, not only in genetics, did tell us not to publish.

I don´t care that much about dwarfism but we don´t know very much about DM at this moment, it is very likely that the genes are only one factor and they might not be the only genes causing DM. Nobody knows at this moment. To select on that only gene might proof wrong in future. There are breeds with an autosomal recessiv gene for DM, in humans there are several different ways of heritage. If people start to avoid carriers at this moment they might cause worse problems in future.
It is important to test dogs and take care not to mate DM with DM but nobody is at the moment able to give any good breeding advices but the witch hunt already did start. This is not in the interest of the breed.

And as I have made the same experiences Bern did as a veterinary surgeon I will not publish any of our results no matter what it is but will take care with breeding and of course will tell the result to any mating partner or puppy buyer, we don´t keep them secretly but we see them to sensible to be published in an open forum.
As I am involved in building up a DNA-database and getting blood samples for research on an international basis I will surely not give any informations I get to anybody not involved in breeding management or research. This is unthinkable for any serious scientist or medic person. If the owner gives the informations by himself that´s fine for me but he is the only person that has the right to do this.

We made this decision out of very long experience with this kind of datas, I can understand your point of view and shared it in former times but had to learn it only works this way - if at all.

Ina

My ide !
 

DM tested : Yes

or

DM tested : No

DM tested : Free Parants

Can this work better ???

The important thing is to not mate untested dogs right ???
If not to a free one of cuorse...

Very best regards / Mikael

OK, this sonds good :)

But what is MDR1 and MH :roll: ???

To me MH is Mental Health discription ;)

Very best regards / Mikael

Great when we can get such a database!! :)
I don't agree with this. I also did hear other opinions of veterinary professors and genetic specialists.
And for example because of not testing for Dwarfism, not sharing test info, till today dwarfs are born. (and because dwarfism also can cause very small litters, dead born pups, puppy dead in first week, there maybe are a lot more dwarfism genes in the population)
In the past there were also witch-hunts about HD results (and breeders did try to hide results) Now it is more common to share HD info and a lot of puppy buyers even ask breeders for the HD results.
And yes unfortunately there are still some breeders who don't make HD results and are selling "ferry tails" to puppy buyers (CsW is e very natural breed and HD does not exists in this breed)

That seems a very good option for the moment. But I hope in future publishing all test results will be as normal as now for HD/ED. :)

Also very good suggestion!

That would be great!

But... there are unfortunately countries (like mine) where owners can send a swab by themselves for DNA to the national breed organization RVBH without any official checking of the dog! :(

As Dutch club we also push to have transparency. On this moment we publish test results conform Wolfdog-healthinfo.org (owner can choose: with or without dog name).

MDR1= Multi Drug Resistance and MH= Maligne Hypothermia

About DNA identity profile :

On this moment all profiles conform ISAG 2006 norms are accepted.

But: All dogs who have an official DNA identity that was made before 2007 (by an other ISAG norm) are not validated anylonger!!

The technical aspects around DNA identity are improved last years.
That is why now only ISAG 2006 is exepted.

So it is a pity for all breeders/owners (like me for example;-) ) who did let make an official DNA profile of all their dogs before 2007:cry:
These certificates are of no use any longer :(

Well, I can imagine multi-drug resistance in cancer cells and in bacteria, but in dogs???

Malignant hypertermia - is there a valid test? As far as I know, malignant hyperthermia is caused by mutations on RyR1 gene... If it behaves similarly to RyR2 gene, than any testing is quite a lot of work, as there are more than 50 different RyR2 mutations (causing CPVT) in people identified so far, in 3 different regions of the gene, and RyR1 as well as RyR2 are huge genes. Or is it identified by encountering the problem and subsequent muscle biopsy?

But way ??? What has change ???

Best regards / Mikael

The same protein encoded by this gene is associate with the blood-brain barrier, this protein is responsible to pump some toxines out of the brain, this defect turns some drugs like Ivermectine letal to these dogs.

Unfortunately Australian Shepherds are in my experience the breed with the highest incidence of MDR1 mutation. Chemicals commonly found in heartworm preventatives can be dangerous when applied on dogs with MDR1 mutations (along with other chemicals). Lots of Aussie owners we know purposely stay away from medications with Ivermectin in it, even if they have not tested the specific dogs for MDR1 mutation.

Thanks for clearing up. So it is not resistance, but sensitivity, actually... Very interesting...

Is there any known wolfdog that has shown MH or MDR1 mutation? I know that this can occure in GSH but never heard of a wolfdog.

As you wrote, this is not because of not publishing named results in an open forum but due to not testing and not sharing results. As you know did we share the results of Farouk but I am not happy when he is named negative in the forum by his breeder, as it is of no use for the breed if his brothers come to get more used just because he is negative and that is the reaction many people show. It is a stupid reaction but it is the reaction experience shows. As long as there are only few dogs tested and you don´t have to test to breed, there will be breeders that don´t test because they are afraid to get problems and be blamed for using a carrier at all, we have already had this situation in this forum. And there will be also the effect that people will select their dogs for only one gene-test even if they don´t plan to breed.

The case I mentioned was the only breeder in his country with tested dogs, he mated DM/N with N/N and was blamed by the regional wolfdog club (with no tested dogs) for using them, this club plans to only use N/N dogs.

I wouldn´t have get the support of the Slovakian Club and wouldn´t get blood from Hungary if I would name the results of anybody in this forum.

The time to publish is when there is the main population of breeding dogs tested and the Clubs request testing.

Our actual litter is of dogs that are tested and we wouldn´t mate with or to an untested dog, we even pay the test for the stud dog if costs are a problem but we will not publish named results.
As I wrote before it depends to the owner, not to the breeder and not to the owners of a website.

Ina

Yes, this is what is important !

But it is important to share for statistic to :roll:
Can we schare statistic today but not share the name of the dogs ???

Best regards / Mikael

i think this Ina and make - share results but without name. and this can make and others, see in mijke wolfdog.healt web site.

OK, is this statistic automatic from laboratory ? Or must the over send info for the statistic separately and say "Do not show name of the dog" ???

If automatic, from which laboratory ??? Not all I guess :roll:

Very best regards / Mikael

i think about this can better say Mijke when she admin this web site.

We only receive copy of the document of an owner not of a lab!

For Belgium it's really important that the DNA isag 2006 will be in the databank. St Hubertus (fci) does not allow to breed with dogs without this code. No dna is no pedigree.
Patrick

That sound god, can you send me more info about this to my e-mail...
If FCI can demand it in Belgium, way not ALL FCI contry´s ;)

Very best regards / Mikael

Health - DM and DW test results
 

We decided to publish also the unofficial results basing on the official results we get.

All puppies of a dog which is N/N will be marked as "N/?" - because we know thet at least they will have one "clear" gene. Their parents will be also marked like this.
The same with DM/DM dogs - all their puppies and their parent will be signed as "DM/?" - at least carriers of the DM gene.

It folllows also that all puppies of parents which are "DM/DM" will be marked as "DM/DM".
All puppies of parents which are "N/N" will be marked as "N/N".

Dogs which produced N/N, N/DM and DM/DM puppies will be marked and "N/DM".

The official result will be written ONLY basing on the official DM test results.

The same aplly to the dwarf test results.

I don't think that is wise to do, on several levels mistakes (on purpose or unintentional) can be made. And by doing that people can not see anymore if the dog is clear by genetic test or by his/her parents test.

I would suggest to show the results only if there is an official result.


greetings Judith

You right - it is why it will be written by every result if it is official (and who made it) or unofficial (basing on the results of the parents or the offsprings).

Don't you think that breeder wil point to the database...see my dog is free... so I don't have to show you a result and I don't have to test:|

And I think that people wil read the unofficial result like it is official and make their discision based on this 'test' that was not done.....

What about the puppies of "unofficial" dogs? Example: Grandparents all negative by test, parents clear because of this...at least for our testing clinic (OFFA), this 3rd generation must be tested to be considered clear (in case there is some new mutation, I guess)

Maybe you also can give HD/ED results based on the test off the parents :rock_3 ???

Just no result without a official test result ;-).
Otherwise we are back to the Fairytales again :roll:.

This choice is wrong from scientific point view, and agaist international accreditation rule's.
Between Mendel laws and and the exact match of a gene transmitted, thera are human hand, and potential error, or mistake.
Is for this than International Accreditation Law ask for every animal (not only dog), ufficial test result. Only with this rules genetic selection can be free from mistake,fraud.

What is also important - and especially now - is to keep in consideration that you can infer the genetics of a pup from the official results of it's ancestors only if you are sure about the parentage. Because otherwise all Czechoslovak wolfdogs are still BB in theory. And of course, it does not rule out mutations.

I don't think that this decision is wise.
From scientific point of view - it's deadly wrong, because genetic rules are figured out by human are not nature's rules, neccessarily.
There still is a chance that genes undergo mutation - in either way.

Furthermore, it will include - and exclude - potential breeding "material" only just because of assumption.
And it will not force people to pay for an official test, on the contrary, why take (and pay for) a test if my dog is already marked as N/? - when it's enough to breed with...

You have put so many hours and work into this data base - with this decision it will become less valueable, less reliable. That would be a great loss for our breed.

Please, at least re-think this decision, I know this is a private page and data base but you have many users who - like you - are interested in the future of the Czech.Wolfdogs.

Basing on this we can not publish ANY results because even the "official" results are not 100% sure. There is a problem with the OFFICIAL laboratory Vetlabor which made mistakes while testing the probes. But EVEN the Laboklin makes mistakes and this week we received new results of a dog whose owners received the results N/N but the dogs is N/DM (he was tested for MH instead of DM).

If we can not be sure that even the OFFICIAL results are 100% clear of "human hand" why we should post ANY results?
Remember that the same apply to HD results - they are ALWAYS subjective. Sure they meassure the angles but still there is sometimes even 20% differences between vets in one country.


You will NEVER be sure if a person will not make a "mistake". There will be always a small percetage of possible errors.

But even OFFA makes the same as we do - if the parents are tested by OFFA the puppies are treated the same way like we do. If there is a parentage test the puppies will even receive OFFICIAL certificartes WITHOUT testing. And they really know that they are doing...

About mutations: they exist but the possibility that they appear is so small that they are pased over. Only here of forum people try to explain every abnormality with "mutattion".

OFFA tested about 20.000 dogs - there was not even ONE muttation. It is why they give certificates for the puppies that they are "free" when the parents are tested and free.

It is made by the most known laboratory. Believe me - they would not make it of they will have ANY doubts that it is ok.

Yes, thats right. And especially the "unofficial" results can help to correct it. We had some cases where the puppies of a DM/DM dog get the result N/N. Almost nobody cared about it - they were sure that it is OK (because of "mutation"). But it was NOT. In all every case it was mistake made by the laboratory.
Another possible explanation of such cases is that the parentage is not OK.
If the owners have "unofficial" information which will be different than the results they will receive it can force them to make more investigation - to test the parentage or to repeat the DM-test. If will help to clear such cases.

No - it is only for one generation. One forward and one back.
Alrready now we were able to find out several DM-carriers what is important for the owners because the dogs do not live anymore and can not be tested - buy owners of their puppies know not there there is a possibility that their dogs can be also carriers.

There is a basic difference between HD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygenetic) and PRA/dwarf/DM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogenetic)....

http://offa.org/dna_cbp.html

Above is the link to OFFA's policy on "Clear by Parentage" - maybe it would be useful to put a similar mark "CPB" by dogs who are clear by "official" results from parents - "unofficial" seems to imply results are only those reported by owners (with no official papers/links to back it up) - I think ALL posted health results should stem originally from verified results.

* One other thing that is interesting to note is that all dogs (mother/father/puppy) must be DNA identity profiled to have clear by parentage, to prove they are actually related - so we don't accidentally register mixes...

:biggrina ,.....................:roll: !!!
But it makes me happy you also know ;-).

Well, the probability of revert mutation (one from wrong to the right allelle) really is infinitisimmal. But, mutation from right to wrong is possible, although usually not recognized by standardized tests (the one which test for a certain mutation, which is easier than to sequence whole gene of interest to see if abnormalities apper). So you can explain a sudden presence of new phenotype by a mutation, although the probability is still very small.

What I could agree with would be not "DM/N, unofficial result", but "this dog should test DM/N based on parent/offspring results".

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest. This is not my think, is International Rules of Accreditation about zootechnical lab.
You can ask here: is official italian istitution for laboratory rules on Breeding, human healt, food and more...and they take international rules...
we have those information from this institut..

I agree with you :)

I am not happy at all with publishing unofficial test results for several reasons that others did already mention.
And I also am not happy with labs that accept swabs of owners (without checking chip by an independent vet) for DNA tests…. (Owners can make mistakes and breeders have more chances to cheat)

And based on this a lot more mistakes can be made (wrong conclusions) with publishing unofficial results:(

Strange,

Unofficial testresults are published but I uploaded the official DM (N/N) testresult of my dog several times past weeks in PDF (also sent it by e-mail) and still no mention of it. Not really motivating.

the result is visable at you dogs profile :) , so thank you admin should be your phrase

OK, top. Sorry for my impatience! thanks

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

I wouldn´t dare to doubt that a huge laboratory can handle their results in that way. But this is not OFFA - so the results you receive have been archieved by many laboratories, they submitt the results to the owner, who then decides if they are published here, right? So there are officially recognized laboratories for testing DM and Dwarfism - and there are others. Although in this data base the results of both are published, they are marked as inofficial, when the laboratory is not recognized for DM and Dwarfism testing.
Nevertheless, they are taken for granted when someone assumes the genetic disposition of their parents and their puppies.

IF you really want to draw conclusions from results, shouldn´t you conclude from official results only?

I think it gets al little ... confusing for interested people - or do we now have four categories:
1) Tested by recognized laboratory,
2) assumption due to parents/puppies Test of recognized laboratory,
3) tested but not officially recognized,
4) assumption due to parents/puppies Test of NON-recognized laboratory?

What will happen, when I get a result for my dog - and it does not fit into the assumption of the "results" of its parents? Will there be doubt about my dogs results (lets say they are from a recognized laboratory) or will the doubt affect the parents and the parent-ship? Do I then have to take a parentage test - or does the breeder have to do it?

Does this lead to genetic "fingerprint" of all dogs to proof their pedigree?
(I don´t think that´s bad BUT ...)

Admin, is this about trust?

Sorry - I just ask because obviously there are people who cheat - or worse - within this breed, but are those more important than the ones who keep everything straight and stick to the rules?

No offence

There are several points:

First - the simple Mendel law allow to "verify" the results. If the breeder will cheat it wil be very fast discovered. And believe me: IF such case will happend I will publish officially the name of the cheater on every version of forum.

Second - cheating can be done in EVERY case. Remember that some breeders are vets and some have friends who are vets. There are always people who will be prepared to cheat. Why it is still allowed by GSD to cheat if all the dogs must be DNA checked? But as I wrote before - it will be discovered sooner or later.


The official results were not published "just like this" - for the whole time it was included in the database but not published. And there was not even one case where the published results were wrong - all the unofficial results were confirmed. The only mistakes which we fixed were... exactly the results made by the "official" laboratories.

And last but not least: you know that some breeders who have the biggest problems will never test/publish the results of their dogs. And the human mind is made this way that everything what is not tested is kept for "clear". Publishing the results basing on the results of the offsprings can significant imprive the health of the breed even if some breeders will not "cooperate".

And for the end: exactly thanks to the laboratories who do not give official certificates it was possible to make the selection who will help us to reduce the number of dogs "at risk". A large number of dogs was tested and the results are as good as bu the official laboratories. Tested dogs mean that it is possible for breeders to make the selection. If we would base ONLY on the official results made by the official laboratories we could already NOW stop ANY selelction - the illness will spread because before almost nobody was interested to test their dogs.
The best example is the test for dwarfism - the price reduced the amount of tested dogs to minimum. No good selection can be made and because of it no selection is done. The possibility to test the dogs didn't changed ANYTHING. And it will be so till one of the universities will develop another project who will test dogs for free (as it is done with DM) or for a very small amount of money....
Sad but true.

So the disscussion about publishing of the unofficial results and accepting only the one made by "official" laboratories is the disscussion between the if we will make the sepection OR NOT....

THIS is an argument - using this to force everyone to test - do you think it´ll work?

Please tell me which project and university does the DM Test for free - and how can one send in the samples?
Because I´d like to test, but it is quite expensive...and my dog ist not supposed to have any offsprings, therefore I waited...

NO - OFFA publish EVERYTHING on their website. Nothing is hidden. It is the difference between OFFA and other "European" laboratories who ALLOW to hide the results.

But I'm sure the publishing of the information like we do know do not make some breeders happy and it will cause huge resistance. It is known that the breeders who breed will DM/DM dogs and do not make any selection hide the results of their dogs. And they are big opponents of publishing the DM-results of the parents basing on the results of the puppies.
But the question is if we will help the dishonest and unreliable breeders OR
if we help to improve the breed and the honest breeders. For me the answer is very easy...

But it is what we do!

No - only two. Official - with written name of the laboratory which made the test. And unofficial.

You must clear it with you breeder or without him. There are two possibilities if the results do not match - the parentage is wrong: thge parents of your puppy are different than written in the pedigree. OR: the DM test (of the puppy or (of one) of the parents) is wrong. I can not say you who must make what. But there will be a mistake.

It is exactly why some breeders which were mentioned on the forum for cheating the pedigrees do not want to make the DM test - exactly because they can give the prove that they cheated the pedigrees...

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. Send it together with the information of your dog to:

Daniela Čílová
Katedra genetiky a šlechtění
Česká zemědělská univerzita v Praze
Kamýcká 129
165 21 Praha 6 - Suchdol
Czech Republic

and wait for the results.

Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

Is it ok to send an english documentation of the dog - or does it have to be in czech?

No, this isn't totally true. All NORMAL results are published on the OFFA website with or without permission, and it is their recommendation that all results are published to help with knowledge and selection...but owners must still agree to have abnormal results published - they may agree before or after the dog is tested. All dogs are part of the anonymous statistics section for the breed. Our database for PennHip is still dealing with legal privacy issues to be able to become public and published - you must also agree to be part of the database for that registry.

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

Thanks for clarifying Marcy! :) I hope more people will realise now that not all results are visible. :rock_3

European labs would get huge problems when they would publish test results (or share them with others besides the owner) In the past some did, but they did receive complains of breeders, so they did stop with this.

Now it is sometimes only possible for clubs to ask for percentages (without names).
But also this says NOTHING! Because owners make the tests in several labs in Europe and not in the same lab.

It is a pity that it did not work out in the past to cooperate with several countries to start together a DNA database for CsW’s. Now the test results and DNA storage of CsW’s is spread in all kind of labs. :(

Hmmmm…… Are you sure the rules did change????:shock:

In the past I did want to cooperate….. (I even did send DNA of a DM/N and a DM/DM dog for their research)
And I also did ask if CsW’s from Holland and Belgium could be tested… (then we would have at least one lab with a lot of CsW DNA)

But in that time I did receive as answer: That this project was only for CSW from the Czech Republic and only a very limited number of dogs of their neighboring countries………

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

That's the point - there will be always honest breeders who will publish the results. And there will be always breeders hiding them. There are also CHEATERS who know that their dogs are ill but they tell the puppy owners that their dogs are healthy - the database with unofficial result can prevent it.

Additionally:
Publishing DM information do not "hurt" anyone - even the DM/DM dogs can be used for breeding - only the selection is important: not to mate such dogs with carriers but only with N/N dogs. The same apply to the carriers.

Publishing unofficial information can show possible dangers and can prevent that more DM/DM dogs are born. It is why I do not understand why some people are against it...

I checked the "responsibility" of the official laboratories - you have written them on the pages which you received with the results:

The lab is accredited according to DIN ISO 17025 (AKS-PL-20922)
for the services mentioned above. Responsibility for the
correctness of animal ID data corresponding with the samples
lies in the hands of the sender. Warranty cannot be accepted.
Claim for damages is limited to the amount of the invoice for
the performed lab test if not otherwise regulated by law.

I think it ends the whole disscussion...

Does any data exist correlating the results from cheek swabs vs blood samples? I have just heard of one case where a dog (not mine) was declared N/DM from a cheek swab, and, later, N/N from a blood sample - both tests performed by Laboklin and both samples taken by an independent vet. Should one type of test be more reliable and believable than the other? I am completely confused...

No is not the end. Off course lab don't have responsibility about right identification,i never said this..damage is limited if not otherwise regulated by law..This does not mean it does not respond. You must to seek for rules for accreditation (i spoke aboute this, i think is clear)..research institute don't have accrditation to give official result, and research institute don't respond for error (about test, ID is another think)...why? and you want without any accreditation system recognized deduce part or all genotipe of dogs.

To avoid misunderstandings, I express my appreciation for the work performed by the research institute in Prague that has provided estimates on the incidence considerable allelic gene DM in the population of the CSW.

Yes is wrong to publish data without any title to make this. whether they are related to potential DM or n. There are many dog's with unoficial x rays for dysplasia (good and sick result), we start to publish all?
All think about disease and breeder don't have any sense here. We spoke aboute normal rules to publish genetic result (good and bad, i ask to remove n/n result to my dogs, you remember it?)...

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

You mean that the results of Laboklin are not trust??

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

I took my dog to the vet, asked her to check her chip, take the material with a swab, dry it, put into the envelope prepared earlier with my dog's name & chip no & my e-mail, seal it with a stamp and send to Daniela.

Results of the dog's family immediately verify his/her result, so no cheating is possible just like errors are spotted very soon (see the case of Eury). I had similar doubts when the testing started, but the more dogs are tested, the more the results are reliable.

There are people who belive in miracles and many strange things keep happening in their kennels, which BTW they never bother to explain ;-) but the rest of the results fit the "family pattern" perfectly.8)

Then, if there is an dwarf pup in the litter mean both parents might be carrier of the gene, even if they haven't the official results, will it be published?

I am not afraid of fraud. Breeders want to know true results of their dogs, they want to work with them. Many breeders only tested for their needs without publication.

Every human activity brings error. This is a normal process.

Pokud chcete aby byly vaše výsledky považovány za oficiální, musíte poslat vzorek do některé z akreditovaných laboratoří a samozřejmě ho zaplatit. Pokud vám stačí výsledek neoficiální, přijeďte se psem na jeden z podzimních svodů a bonitací v ČR a nechte ho v rámci výzkumu DM odebrat a otestovat zdarma - s neoficiálním výsledkem.

Díky za informace. Je to dobrý nápad, já jsem za Skotska, takže nechci platit :wink: ale chci pomoct, oficiální nebo neoficiální, pro mě to jedno...

Maybe we should continue in Gaelic:)...

*gg* which Gaelic dialect do you prefer: irish, scotish, or welsh?

:) ;)

Maybe I then can ask all the CsW dwarf owners for permission to publish :lol:
Sorry just a joke! ;)

I know owners who did not want to harm the breeder (because he/she is a good one and did have bad luck with the combination) And that was the only reason these owners did not want to share the test info.

Also there are owners with "probably dwarfs" , but I'll never publish this without official test results.
This all is for me a very complicated matter......
Because:

I know some people or clubs in several countries still deny dwarfism is an issue in the breed.......
I know there are more CsW's carrier of this mutation then were ever published.....
I know breeders who have (proven) carriers breed with no tested dogs.....

So sometimes I become very sad about this all...........:(

Madainn mhath, Koboldine.

In that case probably the Scottish version.

Slán,
Michael

Na českém foru běží diskuze o DM, koukněte tam. Tady by nás brzy všichni sežrali (za češtinu).

Don't you see the difference? Between HD and DM?
The x-ray evaluation is subjective. It depends on the vet who makes it.
Additionally dysplasia is polygenetic (+ environmental influence) - nobody can say which genes the dog have - nobody test it.
So the HD-results of the children say NOTHING (or better said "almost nothing) about the HD-results of the children.

DM and dwarf is something else - a DM/DM dog has its genes not from the air, not thank to the butterlies or bees but "thanks" to the mother and father. Both are DM carriers. The same with N/N results.

Sure people make mistakes - but people work also at the official laboratories. Sure the breeders cheat - but we have presumption of innocence: the majority of the breeders breed according to the rules. The rest - especially the DM test - the "unofficial" can show some cheatings.

Yes - and again: if there is no mistake and there is no cheating than the "unofficial" results will be exactly the same like the OFFICIAL results.
IF there will be human mistake then also the official results will not match.

You are wrong about the research institutes - the dwarf test are done by a research institute and you GET the certificates.

Sorry but is it not about ACCREDITATION. Yes - the laboratories must have accreditation and must be "responsible" for it. But the are not responsible for HUMAN MISTAKES. If human make mistake you will get "false" results by the puppies. What will do the laboratory? It will NOT loose the accreditation - maybe they will fire the worker who made the mistake. What you and the puppies will reach? NOTHING.

But it is as Daniela and Rona wrote: it is easy to verify the results - it is easy to find out the cheatings and also the mistakes done (also by the official laboratories).

But again - the results basing on the parents and offsprings are not marked "Done by the laboratory Wolfdog" but as "unofficial". You can accept it...or not. Free will. For the breeding it has ONLY good influence.

Apologies for writing in Czech in the English forum a bit naughty I know, I'm from Scotland but ashamed to say that my Czech is much better than my Gaelic :roll:.For those who don't understand Czech, Daniela was saying that it's possible to have your dog tested for free at the Czech club meetings & bonitations this autumn as part of the university study, only the results won't be official. Worth knowing for those of you who are considering travelling.Ještě jednou, diky za informace Danielo, tam budu koukat.

Mijke, but the DM results of the majority of dogs can be calculated anyway on the basis of their family members' results.
E.g.if the pups owners of certian litter test their dogs, openly publish the results and in that litter the results are n/n, n/dm, dm/dm it is clear that both parents must be n/dm. So it does not matter if the parents' owner publish the results or not - they just become "visible"

Should DWARF test be cheaper and thus more available and common - the effect would be the same - impossiblity of hiding the results by breeders, (unlike in the case of HD or ED)

Thanks to Daniela's project DM result is no longer a taboo, but becomes a "public" issue.

For me struggling for the secrecy of the DM results is ... suspicious. If somebody claims he breeds transparently he should not try to hide them, even if they are unofficial (provided this is clearly stated!) :rock_3

Does anyone have details of these upcoming meetings (or any in other countries, for that matter)?

the basic difference between HD, ED and DM:
For dysplasia - we assess (select) phenotype
For degenerative myelopathy - we assess (select) genotype

a scotts-man... great

tapadh leidh, cuideachd sidh!

hm...das ist reflexiv, oder?

I've got some details, 15/10 club meeting & bonitations in Frýdlant nad Ostravicí & 22/10 bonitations in Roudnice nad Labem (I will go there), I think they may be the last 2 dates for "free" tests judging by what has been written in the Czech forum on DM, I'll ask Daniela to clarify though.

So I've had a look at the calender for the Czech club http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?op...ents&Itemid=54 & it seems that the dates in my previous post will be the last time to take swabs (I'll still check with Daniela though), however if it's just meetings that you're interested in then http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?op...y=17&Itemid=54 might be of interest to you as well. You can try using the translate button at the side of the page, it doesn't do a great job into English but you should get the drift. Here in Czech it's traditional to eat carp as the Christmas meal & every year there is an event with Mr Karel Hartl, for more details contact Lenka, I'm pretty sure that she speaks English & her user name is Marianka W.

Gälisch, nicht verstehe. Sorry :oops:

It seems perhaps that due to funding reasons, Daniela is primarily interested in Czech dogs (ie dogs resident in the Czech Republic), so I'm not sure if my earlier advice to come to one of the meetings was a great idea. I think the same maybe applies to postal samples too. Daniela can you clarify your position for us please?

Who told you this? :shock: Daniela has tested most of Polish & Lithuanian dogs, also ones from Slovakia and has samples sent from the UK too!

PS Daniela, could you tell us when the stage of gathering samples for the DM study closes? While talking with people I've got the impression many think it'll be open forever, but it doesn't make any sense to me ;)...

I hope not....that's where my sample has gone!!

Yes, but withim the research degenerative myelopathy, tests are free. We are not a commercial lab, not expose certificate.

Still accept samples of foreign dogs.

"Look not a gift horse in the mouth." :)

Seriously: we're very pleased with what you've offered the vlcak community worldwide :gent

So apologies, I was reading the Czech pages as well as the English & mis-interpreted a post from Daniela where she was trying to encourage more Czech owners to have their dogs tested too & not just foreign owners. I didn't want to "invite" everyone to these events without first checking with Daniela first, that's all.