DM transmission: DM/DM x DM/DM = N/DM?
 

http://www.wolfhonden-online.nl/foru...hp?f=12&t=8406

Does anybody knows something about this ???

Wow, well, at least their results were good but it is very odd to see results like that.

Loco,

I spoke to a scientist at Missouri University who pioneered the DM testing in dogs recently. I am curious as to which labs conducted the DM testing. Missouri University owns the patent to the genetic DM testing, and has ONLY partnered with/granted a usage license to OFFA to offer this test to dogs, and because of this, cannot guarantee the results of other labs' results.

I am not saying that other laboratories are not accurate, but if you would like some answers, I suggest to repeat the DM tests on the dogs through OFFA, and then request additional information from OFFA if the tests return the same and the results are conflicting.

In the meantime, I will present this question to my contact when I speak to her again.

I think if the first test where by Missouri University than it is no use to do it by OFA because the buildings are just a few blocks away( 11 min. apart) from each other and they work together.
Or do you mean that the tests where done somewhere else and so maybe for a checkup doing it by them??

DM/DM x DM/DM = N/DM?
 

Misty, you wrote:
""- Rambo C.W (DM/DM) x Chaddey Spod Dumbiera (N/N) produced a male which is N/N
- Rambo CW (DM/DM) x Bubka de New Flame produced a female which is N/N
- Sibir C.W.(DM/DM) x Bubka de New Flame produced a female which is N/N too

Filiation test were done, it's proved that the parents are the real parents.
Rambo has been tested twice, the 2 times the result was the same : DM/DM, it's the same for the descendants.

A problem was noticed by another breeder : a couple from free TWH produced a female which is carrier (DM/N).
Genetical test were donne too, to prouve that the parents are the real parents, and they are. ""

I think, it is not possible. Somewhere is mistake. I think human factor.....

Little typo: it's not "Chaddey Spod Dumbiera" but "Cynthia Spod Dumbiera".

Lorry de MLS is currently trying to get all blood samples needed for more investigation to be performed.

My question is were the tests done by the same facility or different ones? If it was different facilities who are unaffiliated then I would be worried.

Rambo a été testé 2 fois, une fois chez Laboklin en prise de sang, et par Daniela en salive
Sibir a été testé 1 fois, par Daniela en salive
Cynthia (dite Chaddey) prise de sang chez laboklin
Chee Yr wôck, prise de sang, chez Laboklin
Dheer'Syb et Ckaa'Loup-Mah, 2 fois, chez Laboklin avec prise de sang....

Par le biais de Hanka, avec qui je communique beaucoup par mails, j'ai proposé à Daniela de venir chez moi, quand elle sera en France, en Juillet, pour récupérer directement le sang de Rambo ....(et de tous les chiens qui l'intéresse, pourquoi pas ....)
Pour l'instant je ne sais pas si ce sera possible pour elle ...

Suite à une discussion avec Elf, j'ai également pris l'engagement de tout mettre en oeuvre pour que Rambo, Cyntia (Chaddey) et son fils, soient de nouveau prélevés .....
J'ai d'ores et déjà pris contact avec l'un des propriétaires (j'attends une réponse) et je vois l'autre propriétaire en Suisse, Dimanche....
Histoire à suivre ....

Miran,

Missouri U/OFFA test is the same. Missouri U has given OFFA the license to use their proprietary tests.

Yes, if they were done elsewhere, perhaps do it through OFFA and then if the results are still conflicting, OFFA/Missouri U researchers should try to answer questions regarding this.

But for now since the tests do not appear to have been done through OFFA, the scientists at Missouri U cannot attempt to answer any questions in this situation.

As I understand the test where done by Laboklin so in that way I also advice to do the test again by OFA

But also, we must know whether the puppies of the litters were each individually confirmed to be from the purported parents, and not just 1 or 2 puppies and then assuming the rest must also be from the same litter.

Many CSVs have been DM tested by Daniela at Prague University. All results of vlcaks from Poland (+ Lithuania?, Slovakia?, etc.) tested in Prague fit precisely into the pattern (n/n, n/dm, dm/dm) which indicates high validity of the testing procedures.

I wonder what's the statistical probability that a couple of dogs from the same kennel underwent the mutation? :?

Sure, other labs may also be accurate, but if you want OFFA scientists to answer any questions, you have to have the tests done through them, since they don't confirm others' results on their patented test.

But I agree that perhaps there's nothing for OFFA scientists to answer, that the problem is somewhere else (and not the tests nor the mode of inheritance).

I don´t know if Missouri was the first to invent a test and it is normal, that different research groups invent their own tests and sell them to commercial labs. As Bern University told me is the used test based on the gene research of a Swedish group.
I don´t know which test Prag is using.
Laboklin has the official permission to do rabies-titers for the import into the EU, what means, it is a lab that fits extremely high standarts and the work is controled on regular basis.
All results I know of fit the results of the parents, so if there is unregularity the right thing to do would be to contact the lab, ask them for their advise, do some paternity tests and - if paternity is positivly stated - let the tests be confirmed by another lab.

Ina

Other factors will need to be looked at then. Was it just a plain muitation or could there have been other factors (mother's diet? genetics further back - maybe the recessive genes stay in a N/N dog but aren't seen?).

it means that not only test results must be checked, but authenticity of their pedigrees too (if their parents are really their parents :roll:)

I ask veterinary and he say too it is not possible. i not trust in it

Poland dog are tested in Laboklin too, Lithuanian in OFFA too.

Sure, some were, but: I meant, wherever the dogs were tested - in Laboklin, OFA or in Prague, by saliva or blood samples, the results fit each other and the whole pattern. What's more - they confirn the earlier tests 8) That's why saying that one lab's more reliable than another makes no sense.
The case considered here could be a mutation, a mistake, a miracle or a lie and the question is - which are more probable, and which less.

- Rambo C.W (DM/DM) x Chaddey Spod Dumbiera (N/N) produced a male which is N/N
- Rambo CW (DM/DM) x Bubka de New Flame produced a female which is N/N
- Sibir C.W.(DM/DM) x Bubka de New Flame produced a female which is N/N too



It isn´t possible.

Nor even probable, according to my vet... If for obvious reasons a mistake and a lie are excluded ;) a miracle remains. I opt for a miracle then :lol:

It can be true :shock:
http://www.medgen.ubc.ca/wrobinson/m...enatal/upd.htm

But in those cases I would want to know if the dogs that don't fit into the statistics are really the children of the parents.

hmm strange - and now this "mutation" ( like and red nose dogs) are from one kennel :roll: when are tested almost 500 ( maybe and moore) dogs and only this dogs have not corect results.
Rona, yes all lab is ok-results are THIS SAME ( we have this same results and from OFFA and from CZ Universitat)

Originally Posted by CDaniela http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif
- Rambo C.W (DM/DM) x Chaddey Spod Dumbiera (N/N) produced a male which is N/N
- Rambo CW (DM/DM) x Bubka de New Flame produced a female which is N/N
- Sibir C.W.(DM/DM) x Bubka de New Flame produced a female which is N/N too
It isn´t possible.


Exactly - It is not possible indeed !

Quod erat demonstrantum -
but of course , yeah, a miracle can all time happen.... if one believes in such things. (??)

A miracle like the virgin birth ....!!:blowingup:jumpie

It´s just biological nonsense, like the example before.

Best regards, Uli alias Silvester

And why not think that the DM test is not totally OK ???

Maybe this test is not totally effective for the DM problem...

Here's a thought - could one of the parents be a chimera?

This could play serious havoc with generics. While the dog itself may be affected, what if the other was normal? This could explain one step (DM/DM to N/DM) but unless there were two chimeras it could double step (DM/DM to N/N).

Very highly improbable but not completely impossible.

Yes it is really strange...
I really believe in Lorry, because she is working against the DM since a long time. And as she is definitly open to test her dogs, there is certainly another way to verify that.

Merci de ce soutien inattendu ....

Petite intervention rapide et en français, car je n'ai pas le temps de faire de la traduction....

J'ai obtenu de la part de la propriétaire de Cyntia Spod Dumbiera de refaire les tests pour la 2ème fois, tant au niveau MD que de la filiation
Moi même je me suis engagée à refaire pour le 3ème fois, les tests de Rambo au niveau de la MD et également de la filiation ....
Nous allons mettre celà en place très prochainement et le tout sera envoyé directement à Daniela pour d'ultimes vérifications faites par Elle ....

Espérant que si elle proclame, elle même, que les résultats sont bien ceux que j'ai déjà annoncés .... on la prendra au sérieux et on ne mettra pas SA parole en doute ....

Je tenais à dire à toutes les personnes, qui semblent à chaque fois, remettre en question, la validité ou le résultat les tests effectués à plusieurs reprises que vous ne favorisez pas la volonté de transparence

Très honnêtement, si j'avais su, que je devrais autant me battre, à essayer de vous persuader que les tests n'ont pas été falsifiés, ni par moi ni par quiconque, je ne penses pas que j'aurai pris la décision d'annoncer les résultats MD publiquement ...

Je comprends mieux maintenant ceux qui font le choix de les cacher !

I totally give my support to Lorry for that test.

She has nothing to win (or to loose) to give false results... and only made this tests to understand and help the breed with this disease.

I also understood that Lorry stop breeding... and her behaviour must to be honored for that int his case !

If strange results remained... i think that the effectiveness of THE ACTUAL TEST to check DM disease must be study... or other genetic possibilities (chimera... but i reallly know nothing about that)

please say who know one info :
parents both are in Lory house? in who live this dog - puyppy who have not corect result? Are others dog in this house too? are they tested DM too?
very thanks for antswer

The puppy now live in France, but she coming from italian litter. Mother Deer Sib de la mollyniere de lo' Scale and father Fenics cosmo daniel.
Both parents testet by Laboklin N/N.
Deer Sib was tested in january and in June. Laboklin confirmed N/N
Now the italian breeder will send a blood sample to Daniela in CZ REP.
For the moment the other puppies aren't DM tested. Belive me, is not so easy to convince people tested our dogs.

in who house live this puppy? are in this house others CSV? have they DM test? who make this DM example?
and two times are tested all 3 dogs? both parents and this puppy too? Sory if I quest this same info but better this make moore time and later know better in who problem can be.

I know but step by step and have moore and moore tested dogs.

It is very difficult for me to write because I do not know your language. I organized a Meeting on DM with Professor Gandini. (http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/default.htm?UPN = gualtiero. gandini% 40unibo. TabCV & it = TabControl1) Conference was inquired about mating with the results of Rambo and sons. His response was that 1: 1,000,000 is a result of the genre but is a very rare thing. This if only 1 of the children had a result so strange. If the result is more children. Almost impossible. Lorry has done well to give the result that came AFTER that of children. His is a contribution to the race, having exposed this way. I can tell. Prof. Gandini counseled to redo the tests with NEW BLOOD and not always with one already stored, and send it in two different laboratories.
In essence it is impossible to have these results and can be many factors: human error, error of real machines, not parents, little seriousness of someone. There are other explanations. Pity that the test in Italy have been repackaged on the same blood. Useless redo the test as well.


E' molto difficile per me scrivere perchè non conosco bene la vostra lingua. Ho organizzato un meeting sulla MD con il Professor Gandini. ( http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/d...Control1=TabCV ) In conferenza gli è stato domandato circa l'accoppiamento con i risultati di Rambo e figli. La sua risposta è stata che 1 : 1.000.000 è possibile un risultato del genere ma è una cosa molto rara. Questo se solo 1 dei figli avesse dato un risultato così strano. Diverso se il risultato è di più figli. Quasi impossibile. Lorry ha fatto bene a dare il risultato che è arrivato DOPO quello dei figli. Il suo è un contributo alla razza, essersi esposta in questo modo. Io lo posso dire. Il Prof. Gandini consigliava di rifare il test con NUOVO SANGUE e non sempre con quello già stoccato, ed inviarlo in due laboratori diversi.
In sostanza è impossibile avere questi risultati e i fattori possono essere tanti: errore umano, errore delle macchine, genitori non veri, poca serietà di qualcuno. Non ci sono altre spiegazioni. Peccato che i test in Italia siano stati rifatti sullo STESSO sangue. Inutile rifare il test così.

The puppy lives in france'house. Not other CVS. Two times was tested only the mother. His father is Sibir. My Fenics is tested only one time . His sister Farah is tested N/N and 4 Farah's descent tested until today are N/N.
The puppy was tested by Laboklin.

ee we speak about Fenics puppy who have falsh result or other puppy?
I realy not know now who is who.

Fenics puppy have a not corect results? he live alone?

sibir puppy too have not corect result - this live alone

parents are tested 1-2 times, puppy are tested -1 time?
dna paternity test are make in all case ? yes? both parents ( fenics liiter and sibir litter?)

OK ! je recommence les explications, pour la dernière fois :

Fenics Cosmo Daniel Elite (N/N) et Dheer'Sybb MLS (N/N) ont eu des chiots, nés en Italie.

Un chiot a été importé en France
Il a été testé chez Laboklin (comme ses parents)
Le chiot est revenu N/DM ! alors que ses 2 parents sont N/N !

Pour l'instant, les autres chiots de la portée n'ont pas encore été testés

Le père : Fénics a été testé par la sang chez laboklin 1 fois
(mais une 2ème vérification est prévue très prochainement)

La mère : Dheer'Sybb a été testée 2 fois (toujours pas le sang)
Les 2 fois, elle est revenue N/N

Dheer'Sybb est la fille de Sibir qui lui est DM/DM

Voilà, j'espère que cette fois ci vous parvenez à comprendre
"Qui est Qui "

Lory, tks a lot for explication.I have short of time today, but I think Daiva have no problem to consulting database;)

yes thanks :) I try this make later

J'avais promis la transparence.... en voici un nouvel exemple, avec le retour de la preuve de parenté d'une jeune chienne testée N/DM alors qu'elle a ses 2 parents N/N !

La mère est une chienne de mon affixe (c'est d'ailleurs pour celà que je me permets d'en parler ouvertement) : Dheer'Sybb M.L.S (testée 2 fois de suite et revenue 2 fois de suite N/N
Le père est Cosmo Daniel Elite, testé lui aussi N/N

Leur fille est bel et bien leur fille et pourtant testée N/DM !

Pour rappel, Dheer'Sybb est la "fameuse" fille de Sibir Crying Wolf, revenue 2 fois N/N, alors que son père est DM/DM (testé par Daniela, en Tchéquie)

Alors, je veux bien lire "ce n'est pas possible !" mais dans ce cas là qu'on me donne une explication sur la crédibilité de cette impossibilité, alors même que c'est tout de même le 4ème cas relevé !

Je tiens à présicer qu'on ne s'amuse pas à dépenser de l'argent dans des tests de filiation ou de dépistage ou (re)vérification, pour le simple plaisir, ensuite de les fausser ....
Alors merci d'éviter les sous entendus de "miracle" et Cie !

I don't believe in miracle's, to many are happening.

Could it be (sorry if I offend you Daniela) that the test that Daniela is using is not the right test? If they say that they are using the right test, than they should look at this problem, because this simply should not happen with dna results.

Are you really sure that the rigt blood from the right dog was used? was the microship checked by te vet etc......
Where the parenting test and the DM test done with the same vial of blood?

Sorry that I have so many questions... but this is questionalbe , I hope somebody has the answers on this matter.

greeting Judith

Provavelmente o mesmo teste não funcione em mestiços. :lol:

I have a different question .... are these cases happening ONLY to dogs coming from Lorry's Kennel or also to dogs coming from other kennels? it seems that a bit of investigation could be useful.

For Daniela: can you verify paternity of DNA samples given to you when they do not have correct correspondance in terms of DMA?
I dont believe in miracles...but i believe even less that DNA tests are wrong...

And I have the question which labs have done the tests, was it only Danielas lab or also others?

Ina

I have noticed through the years that the easiest questions are the hardest ones to answer :0/ Hmmmm… And I really wounder way ???

Best regards / Mikael

If you have a problem, you send me the blood (not buccal swab) of both parents and children.
I'll test paternity and DM - both from one DNA isolation. Another way to know the truth does not exist.

My offer to you(lorry) can be to draw the blood for free, when I come back from my trip to spain that would be around the 19th of october.

And Daniela that is a greet offer made by you. So hopefully this wil bring some answers to this matter.

greetings Judth

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking of...

If Daniela has blood of both parents and puppies, she can make DMA and DNA test.
As I said i do not believe in miracles, and I believe that it is impossible that the DMA of father is DM/DM and son is N/N, one of them must be wrong, or the father is not the real father!!
massimo