Best training method for CSW
 

Just wondering what the best training method is for a CSW?
Do you get the best results from -Positive Reinforcement ie Food training,or the use of correction(sometimes reffered to as a choker chain)or pinch collars,head halters or a combination?As a dog trainer I know each dog responds to different methods based on their individual personality,whats good for one dog doesn't work for another!However,thru my reading on this website and e-mailing different breeders it seems this breed certainly needs more patience than most other breeds and therefore perhaps a gentler approach to training and less rigid programs.I'd love to hear from all who have trained their dogs especially those involved in dog sport such as obedience,agility and Shutzhund type training.
Simon

Re: Best training method for CSW
 

I've recently read an interview with Colonel Hartl who designed and carried out the first experiments that led to the development of the CZW breed, surpervised the training of the first hybrids, and later - CZWs and assessed the methods and techniques against various criteria. He claims that food training is most effective for the Czechs. First CzWs were taught tracing (is this the right word?) by showing them food which they were able to lick, or eat only after following it sucessfully for longer and longer distances. Practice showed that best training results were obtained in the morning and at night (which reflects thewolf's natural activity pattern).

Another specific feature of CZW is that these dogs hate long drills. They learn much faster than other breeds, but very quicky get tired and bored. Best results are obtained by frequent, though very short "lessons".
Several people who presently own CzW puppies and on the Polish forum share their experiences with training them confirm this. When attending dogs' schools they quickly find out that CZWs grasp in no time what the trainer wants them to do, and soon see no point in repeating the tasks again and again with other dogs. It seems that food (the pragmatic factor) is crucial and special programme should be designed for the CzW.

My experience is limited, but while training Tina I have always obeyed the principles described above. I'm not a dog trainer and I discovered them just through observation and common sense. What's more, she is almost 12 now, and we can still teach her new things. This winter, for example, she learnt to take food from the required hand. Now she easily obeys the commands "left hand" or "right hand" and does it 90% correctly. I also discovered that when she learned something, she remembered it forever, even without repeating for several months or even years. I was really surprised to read in the interview with Hartl that this was typical for all CzW.
The problem with CzW is that one can teach them to obey, but the owner always knows when the dog does not feel like obeying... :D Their "faces" and body language are so expressive, that the lack of enthusiasm cannot be missed. I like this trait myself, because it makes the dog more of a partner.

I described only the main principles. There are many people who have experiences with traing their CzW obedience, agility, etc. more "professionally". For example Ori has great results with training Amber. Maybe they'll be able to give you more "professional" details. :)
P.S. You can find great pictures of Amber's training here:
http://www.jantarowa.wataha.wolfdog.org/zdjecia3.htm

Thanks Rona,
The one important element in any method of training is that it is always POSITIVE!!!!!
So further to the types of training you can do with a CSW,could someone explain the following training titles,which are from Europe:
VZ1,ZOP,ZM,ZPU1.Obviously they are abbreviated from a European language and have an English equivalent.Also where can I get an English version of the article you mention,books on the CSW and a video of a CSW doing training?
Simon

Quoting Margo's explanations from the Polish forum:

Tests for CZW:
ZVP1= running 40 km
ZVP2= runninmg 70 km
ZVP3= running 100 km
Dog runs, human cycles, cyclists may change

Tests for rescuers:
VZ1=20 km- dog runs, human cycles
max time 2,5 h (2h=excellent mark, every 10' more means a result one mark lower)
VZ2= 20 km- dog runs, human cylcles 10 km and runs/walks 10 km
VZ3= VZ2+ swimming 1 km with the dog.
A person who manages VZ3 gets a title of an "iron rescuer"

VZ exams are valid for 1 year only
All the abbreviations come from the Czech language. You may find them on the Czech page:
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...icles&secid=10

and their eqivalents on the English page under Training- regulations

Hi,

I did agility with my dog and she responded best to food. It didn't have to be anything special, granules of her normal food were enough. Important was that she shouldn't get bored. With agility it is not a problem, because you can change the course all the time and it is more like play. In obedience we always got problems because it was boring not only for her but for me too.

I used also punishment, but only for misobeying (whend she done something she knew she shouldn't) and when she tried to take over me in hierarchy (she was quite dominant).

Hi Simon,
let me write one very important notice :

Maybe I dont understand correct, but only positive method is wrong way by any education of any living creature. Education is two parts. Good done - reward, bad done - penalty. Its a basicaly principle of all educations and trainings. With only positive (only reward) method nobody reach the good results. Watch, how educate the wolf his pupies. Its a best example.

Pavel

I think what Simon meant, was that whichever training method is used, a positive outcome may be obtained. Or rather that it is possible to work out a method for every dog. :)
I remember that when we were training Tina (just basic obedience) and happened to use wrong techniques (tried to break her will) she just ignored our commands and behaved like an obstinate "stupid blonde" :mrgreen: , though we knew that she perfectly well understood what we wanted from her. We also soon found out that she reacted best to positive reinforcement (food and praise) and depriving her of the company of her 'pack' for some 10-15 minutes immediately after the 'crime' turned out the most effective punishment.

Hi Pavel&Rona,
Actually you are both right! After all any method of training is aimed at positive results it's just the method by which you reach your goal!!! Pavel,when I studied for my dog trainers certificate some of the methods of correction I was taught came from watching a wolf mother correct her pups ie scruffing the back of the neck and applying gentle pressure to the muzzle to stop a young dog nipping,both of these I have seen being done on wolf programs and by my GSD bitch to her pups.
It's actually more important to get the level of appropriate punishment for the crime right.I have used isolation as a punishment to great effect in the home,however,it's not possible to use this sometimes when out in the field,and a good well timed correction may be the only way to achieve the alteration of misbehaviour,however you don't want to break your dogs spirit so even though you must correct a dog you should first go gently and gently increase your punishment should bad behaviour continue.It's also worth noting that everything I've read about the CSW is you can break their spirit easily by overdoing and repetitive exercises so any training method for the CSW must,from my understanding be a gradual,positive experience with a corrective method that won't break the dogs spirit or break the dogs trust in YOU.
Simon

Because of more recent wolf genes than most other breeds and because wolves are generally considered more intelligent than domestic dogs, are CzWs more intelligent than most dogs in general? What are their behaviors like compared to a wolf and a typical dog?

That's true!
.
Exactly... Partnetship, mutual respect and clearly defined postion in the hierarchy of the pack are the crucial issues.

Hello Wolfgang,

I'm new in this forum and would like to learn a great deal about the wolfdog, before I make any acquisitions. I'm thrilled that by the way CzWs are described here, it's no different from the early working dogs as far as workability and intelligence are concerned, salient of which are boredom over constant repetitions during training and you just have to show them once and off you go. There is also the issue of stubborness on the side.

With these characteristics discussed here, the CzW will not make a good sportdog then?

Hello Wolfpup

it depends on what kind of sports do you want to do and how you will train your dog. For obedience for example a CSW is the wrong choice.

It is much easier with other dogs, which does not mean a CSW can not be succesful in obedience. They can- but it taks much more nerves and effort and ideas from your side to teach him.

This is because the loose intererst very quickly and are bored doing the same staff over and over again. They look for anything else then. My one loves Agility for example, but not every day. And not in the same direction all the time.

She jumps on/off/over anything I show her but it needs to vary. She hates doing the same things.

Personally I think if you like to make sports a CSW ist the not the right dog for you- if you want a dog who is with you anywhere anytime for a long long time, than a CSW could be yours.

Regards from Germany,
Kerstin

Thank you, Kerstin.

We live in a time where dogs like pointers no longer point, retrievers no longer retrieve nor swim, and shepherd dogs are reduced to mere showdogs and robots. These once great working breeds still carry a name to denote their functions that now they no longer deserve. All because of vanity, ignorance and greed. Even Stephanitz had stated the importance of maintaining the true character of his founded GSD breed, never to do constant repetitions of the same exercise as it paralyzes the mental powers of the dog, and to train and judge his breed as service dogs and no other. Very very rare will you find a GSD or a Mal that has been kept and trained real. Most of them have been bred and trained for sports or in the case of the GSD, for show.

I am then more thrilled than ever with the CzW as it very much bear the characteristics of the past working dogs that I'm looking into this creature, the CzW (which has more or less 20% wolfblood), to infuse vigor into the GSD to get them back to what they were before, and to adopt a training method (which I do now) that has made these dog historically famous and useful to man, in both war and peace. I believe that percentage of wolfblood would produce pups with same or lesser ratio as Horand (said to have 1/4 wolfblood, and Pollux, whose maternal grandmother was a wolf in the Stuttgart Zoo), and thus would bring back the intelligence and workability this breed has been noted for, as well as to correct the physical failings now plaguing the breed. I myself still maintain some dogs resembling the past dogs that I intend to breed with wolfblood.

I hope I can be helped. Best regards...

Al
www.asonial.home.ph

Hello Al,

nice web site, nice dogs.

If you will be breeding CSW will notice the difference.
And you know the Officals returned to other working dogs because of the experience made with CSWs.

Wish you good luck and maybe you ll tell us your experience und how your customers react.

Regards, Kerstin

Let me put here a theoretical question. Do you make a sport for fun or for the searching the easiest ways, how to do it ? :D

I wouldnt say, that CsW is generally wrong choice for obedience. Its depence he individuality of dog. Look e.g. in near past Marta Budny and Irma z Litavske kotliny. They are more years on the top in agility in Poland and members of national team on world championchip.
Some CsW are good for obedience, some for agility, some for schutz. Only one can be says generally about CsW - all are very good for tracing.

In this case? Both- if it is fun, the result does not matter. I want to have fun with the dog. The way is not so important, because it is fun.
But: If it is job, the result should be 100%. Working with the dog is not just for fun and I cannot pick the easiest way, I have to search for ways which work.

Here I agree a 100%!

And as I said before- in general if I would like to do sports and other serious work I would not pick a CSW. Depending on what I would like to
do I would choose my dog. For my purpose at the moment my dog is fine. I would not want any other dog, neither give her away :)

Regards, Kerstin

PersonallyI see no sense in spoiling such a great, young and specific breed as CzW and using it instrumentally to fulfil dreams of "perfect" GSD. Without proper reserach, scientific preparation, consultations with specialists in dog genetics, clearly constrained conditions, extreme costs and really devoted team of breeders with "hard hearts" for pups that do not meet the expectations (all these conditions were fulfilled at Pohranicni Straze in 1950-1970) such an experiment may ruin the CzW breed and "create" quite weird kind of GSDs.

It's like a case of a famous writer: a young lady wanted to have a baby with him and suggested that the baby would inherit his intelligence and her looks. "and what if the baby inherits the other way round", asked the writer, "my looks and your intelligence" ?

Unless one has a huge number of CzWs to use for such an experiment and is able to apply a really cruel selection to puppies, the result might bring a shy, sick and stubborn creatures....

If one is keen on having a working dog full of stamina, why not simply buy and breed CzWs instead of undertaking risky attempts which may destroy the Czw breed?

Point well taken, Rona. Your post displayed true love for your CzW breed, but proper consideration must likewise be afforded to a noble purpose of improving a once-mighty breed that played a major role in the creation of your CzW. Come to think of it, will the CzW now be kind enough to lend improvement to the breed that helped develop it? CzW is GSD blood and GSD blood had wolf blood. There's no new breed being introduced here, so my expectations should be well-contained. This is not to mean as a desperate attempt to revive a totally-lost breed, for there are still good GSDs around if you spend more time to find them.

Nothing to lose any which way.

Well, who knows I might just do that. Only I'm not that kind who will abandon a good friend just because he's rotting away.

Best regards...

I'm really trying to follow your reasoning, but find it a bit hard :) CzW is a young, but well-established breed. CzWs do not look like GSDs but more wofish and they also share specific features of character, temperament, etc. Poeple who have GSDs and CzWs at home are amazed at the differences between these two breeds. By cross-breeding them one will definitely be producing a mixed- breed dogs (mongrels) with characteristics difficult to predict.

CzW carry about 25-30% wolf's blood. Wolves are shy, independent and difficult do train. Even now, after 60 years of selection some CzWs develop these features inherited from their ancestors.. Although they are great working dogs, they aren't easy to train, and need special training programmes. On the other hand, they are healthy and full of energy.
GSD are less healthy, less vigorous, but easy to train, not shy, dependent on their master and obedient.
When mixing them without scientific approach and/or good luck, theoretically you might get a very independent mix, afraid of humans, with hip displasia, difficult to train... reactions of which would be diffucult to predict.

You must have misunderstood me. :? I had in mind the options of mixing CzW with GSD OR buying a pure CZW pup. The first option seem to me much more risky and even dangerous since the results are very difficult to anticipate.

As you mentioned above, there are still great GSDs available and probably by mixing the super- GSD , free of dispalsia, by selecting the work-loving dogs for further development of the breed, etc. would probably be a better alternative than risky genetic experiments with CzW

It would interesting to learn what do other people think...
Best regards

BTW. It is really interesting because I found the same (or similar) words also on other language versions of Wolfdog.... 8) One of the Czech articles about CzW start even with: "Imagine a child whose mother is Madonna and father Mike Tyson"... ;)

The case of CzWs looks a little bit different. The breed itself is not degenerated but the dogs are simply not used for the purposes the breed was created for. Since middle 80s till 98-99 there was a big stagnation. CzWs were breed only by private breeders who were not interested in training. However since about 98 or so we observe that more and more people are doing something with their dogs and an overall number of trained CzWs is growing all the time. Still there are only a few people who are professionals and train for a longer time - most people are amateurs and training is just a way of spending their free time. That's why there are not so many professionaly and top trained CzWs. Simply because there is no need for them. But when people want to do something more with them they can achieve a lot.

According to the breed standard CzW should be "versatile in his uses" but it's obvious that none of the breeds is perfect and even CzW has it's good and bad sides. It is generally known that CzWs are best in the tracking work and the obedience or protection is possible however they will never be as good as for example belgian or german shepherds in these trials. So if somebody wants to train with them for "real" then it's better to take advantages of their natural talents as the mentioned tracking abilities than to train for example IPO or Mondioring :) And you can already see first positive results: in Italy there are a few CzWs used in SAR (Search and Rescue) groups and are a few more are in phase of training. Of course I'm not saying that CzWs can be only used for tracking work because there are also some CzWs with IPO (even IPO3) or Agility (A3) exams but it's good to know all advantages and disadvantages of the breed to use the breed efficiently.

Hi Rona,

First, thank you for your patience and valuable responses. Rest assured I'm not here to start a word war nor spoil a established breed. Like what you said, I need consultations not that I will embark on an immediate breeding program but simply to ponder on the possibility.

Technically you're right. A breed bred to another will produce a mixed-breed (mongrel), the status I believe the CzW had until its recognition. My point was not creation nor recognition but reinforcement using blood that's common to these two breeds in the hope of improving workability and intelligence. That's it, that's all. I am aware of the tracking ability of wolfdogs which could be put to good use in this calamity-ridden part of the world.

I don't dismiss the fact that the breeding will produce undesirables. That's always given though many documentations seem to point to the contrary. I simply think there will be better chances of satisfying the objectives with the percentage of wolfblood brought down to acceptable levels making the progenies more tractable thus, more GSD.

Best regards...

Neither am I :) . Exchanging opinions and having different views on issues does not mean a war, doesn't it :) I assume the forum was set for this purpose. If we all had the same opinions what should we discuss? :lol:

That's the point. Experience shows that it's relatively easier to spoil something than to build... That why one should be exetremely cautious and responsible when 'acting God' - dealing with genes, etc. beacuse the far-effects may differ from the original assumptions.

That's right. But due to very specificly constrained conditions (possible to fulfil in a military kennel) the development of the breed was incredibly fast and focussed. I personally could not imagine having the experiment repeated, if not for other, than just humane reasons...

I still belive this would be dangerous and, in my opinion, not necessarily successful.

I respect your views but can't help having a different opinion on this subject. :( Thanks for the discussion, anyway :)
Best regards

Wow,I really opened a can of worms!!!!!!
What needs to be remembered is that no breeding program produces a 100% return of the desired traits it is trying to produce.The reason that most people fail in getting a higher percentage of desired traits is because they don't adequately test the pups at 7 weeks,which cynologists agree is the age at which a dogs personality,or the main traits are already determined in the dog.However,no matter how good the parents are,the breeder is never going to eliminate the effect genetics has on the litter,so even the most intensive testing of a pup cannot rule out the genetic and new environmental variables that are out of your control.
Take for example,breeding Guide Dogs for the Blind:Australia's breeding program is world renowned,with many dogs bred here being exported around the world,however,the breeding master has stated that only 30% of the pups born will be successful in graduating to become a working dog,and Australian Police,who also have a breeding program for GSD and Rottweilers have found similar results.
What does happen is, that as a dog breeds function becomes less necessary or desirable,and it is bred solely for looks or companionship,it's working desire and ability either decrease and become non-existent,or it becomes a liability eg the Pit Bull Terrier.
My answer to the lack of CSW's & other working dog breeds gaining,and maintaining their working status is to encourage people to join dogsport clubs and have professional experienced trainers guide you thru the training regime,working out the best method of training for the dog,and as harsh as it is,if your dog is unable to attain a sufficient level of proficiency,don't breed it just enjoy having a beautiful loving companion guardian in your life.Of course,for those countries that don't have a large population available to do this,don't breed the shit out of them,just be careful how you breed!!!!
Simon

Hi Przemek,

Funny I was about to raise the question of why this breed isn't much put to good use after reading all its qualities in the breed standard. I understand it was meant primarilly for service work. It could have provided a great experience and a rare opportunity to work and understand a breed yet unaffected by human failings.

Since it has been discussed here that the breed gets bored in repititious training, then wouldn't this be the reason why its development has not been fully exploited, the inability of modern training methods to go deep into the animal's soul?

Best regards...


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